What is "patriotism"?

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:26 am UTC

OK, rewording proposition to be axiom makes a bit more sense. I'm still having trouble seeing a two dimensional relationship here. It suggests the possibility of someone being both a patriot and a nationalist at the same time. I always considered the traits mutually exclusive personally, or at least there being a linear scale between them.

FakeEdit: Actually, you could be right. A linear scale wouldn't work because it precludes the possibility of a person being neither a patriot nor nationalist. Sorry for sounding like a troll, but spending day after day doing maths and getting otherwise fine arguments torn to shreds by someone pointing out a semantic imprecision, tends to make me subject anything mathematical-sounding to the same treatment.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:37 pm UTC

Unless you can speak something other than English, you'd pretty much have to move to England if you wanted to move to Europe. And believe me, it's not much better over here. Did you know it's actually illegal over here to physically discipline your own child? Apparently it's child abuse or something.

So basically, kids know they can get away with anything they like, knowing that if mummy or daddy smacks them, they can call "CHILD ABUSE!" and get mummy and daddy arrested.

Combine a lack of respect for ones elders with a National Curriculum that a trained ape wouldn't struggle with, and you get a generation of slouches.

/rant

So yeah, I hate the current state of my country. Does that make me unpatriotic?

Edit: speaking of trained apes, I really hope that one day we learn to communicate with chimps. Then we could make one sit a GCSE exam (with a scribe, obviously) and see what the result is. I would laugh so much if it passed, but they would be bitter bitter laughs.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby cypherspace » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:59 pm UTC

Royall wrote:Lack of American Idol? All English.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have us to thank for that (Pop Idol started it all). And Big Brother. And 90% of the other bullshit reality TV shows that are made these days. And if you think 2 year olds here don't go to McDonald's or that kids here want to learn, you're sadly mistaken. I saw a mother in the pub a couple of years ago feeding her six-month-old baby beer. BEER.

Personally I don't think my country's perfect, but I think it's a hell of a lot better than the majority of others. I'm proud of the things it does right, but I am critical of the things it does wrong. I think that's what patriotism should be about - wanting the place you live to be the best and trying to make it so. Not thinking that it is.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:21 am UTC

Royall wrote:Personally, I think America is the worst country on the planet. Not that I'd go and blow things up, but when I see a mother and her 2 year old walking into a McDonalds, it makes me want to move to Europe. Every day at my high school, I see how American children are ungrateful, ignorant little bastards. It isn't that they can't learn, it's that they don't want to. 15 somewhat years of TV and video games makes knowledge like chopped liver. I've seen children who don't know the meaning of the word "manufacture" at 14 years old. I've seen children who think it's funny to urinate on dead squirrels. Patriotism in America is just another name for "group stupidity".


Haha!

The worst country on the planet? You've got to be kidding.

Go move to North Korea, or Russia, or Saudia Arabia.

The US has problems (every other country has problems, too), but we are FAR from the worst country. In fact, I'm going to come right and say we are one of the best, if not the best country around.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby DougP » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:31 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:
Royall wrote:Personally, I think America is the worst country on the planet. Not that I'd go and blow things up, but when I see a mother and her 2 year old walking into a McDonalds, it makes me want to move to Europe. Every day at my high school, I see how American children are ungrateful, ignorant little bastards. It isn't that they can't learn, it's that they don't want to. 15 somewhat years of TV and video games makes knowledge like chopped liver. I've seen children who don't know the meaning of the word "manufacture" at 14 years old. I've seen children who think it's funny to urinate on dead squirrels. Patriotism in America is just another name for "group stupidity".


Haha!

The worst country on the planet? You've got to be kidding.

Go move to North Korea, or Russia, or Saudia Arabia.

The US has problems (every other country has problems, too), but we are FAR from the worst country. In fact, I'm going to come right and say we are one of the best, if not the best country around.


This is exactly the problem. Now its an argument about the quality of nations, which is an inherent issue with patriotism and nationalism. It shouldn't be about which country is "best' or "worst' what should matter is PEOPLE, not imagined concepts like nations.

cypherpsace wrote:Personally I don't think my country's perfect, but I think it's a hell of a lot better than the majority of others. I'm proud of the things it does right, but I am critical of the things it does wrong. I think that's what patriotism should be about - wanting the place you live to be the best and trying to make it so. Not thinking that it is.

Again, If patriotism is about wanting the place you live to be the best, you are comparing it to something else that is it "better" than. Why should your place be better than theirs? At the very least patriotism is inherently selfish. We should be talking about making it better everywhere, not just in a specific place because I happen to live here. I imagine that the response will be "wanting my place to be good doesn't preclude me from wanting other places to be good." Of course, if you want equal "goodness" (for lack of a better term), then its not patriotism in the first place.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:52 am UTC

DougP wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:
Royall wrote:Personally, I think America is the worst country on the planet. Not that I'd go and blow things up, but when I see a mother and her 2 year old walking into a McDonalds, it makes me want to move to Europe. Every day at my high school, I see how American children are ungrateful, ignorant little bastards. It isn't that they can't learn, it's that they don't want to. 15 somewhat years of TV and video games makes knowledge like chopped liver. I've seen children who don't know the meaning of the word "manufacture" at 14 years old. I've seen children who think it's funny to urinate on dead squirrels. Patriotism in America is just another name for "group stupidity".


Haha!

The worst country on the planet? You've got to be kidding.

Go move to North Korea, or Russia, or Saudia Arabia.

The US has problems (every other country has problems, too), but we are FAR from the worst country. In fact, I'm going to come right and say we are one of the best, if not the best country around.


This is exactly the problem. Now its an argument about the quality of nations, which is an inherent issue with patriotism and nationalism. It shouldn't be about which country is "best' or "worst' what should matter is PEOPLE, not imagined concepts like nations.

cypherpsace wrote:Personally I don't think my country's perfect, but I think it's a hell of a lot better than the majority of others. I'm proud of the things it does right, but I am critical of the things it does wrong. I think that's what patriotism should be about - wanting the place you live to be the best and trying to make it so. Not thinking that it is.

Again, If patriotism is about wanting the place you live to be the best, you are comparing it to something else that is it "better" than. Why should your place be better than theirs? At the very least patriotism is inherently selfish. We should be talking about making it better everywhere, not just in a specific place because I happen to live here. I imagine that the response will be "wanting my place to be good doesn't preclude me from wanting other places to be good." Of course, if you want equal "goodness" (for lack of a better term), then its not patriotism in the first place.


I want my country to be good because my family lives here, my friends live here, I live here, and I plan to raise a family here. It is a bit selfish, but I don't give a shit. I want what is best for MY family.

Why should my place be better than theirs? Because its mine, and sometimes its fun to show off? Its fun to be the best?

Also, wanting your country to be better doesn't mean you want other countries to be worse off. Besides, why not start improving your own country first, and then work on to neighboring countries? It would make no sense to randomly choose to try and make country x better, instead of your own.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby cypherspace » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:56 am UTC

DougP wrote:
cypherpsace wrote:Personally I don't think my country's perfect, but I think it's a hell of a lot better than the majority of others. I'm proud of the things it does right, but I am critical of the things it does wrong. I think that's what patriotism should be about - wanting the place you live to be the best and trying to make it so. Not thinking that it is.

Again, If patriotism is about wanting the place you live to be the best, you are comparing it to something else that is it "better" than. Why should your place be better than theirs? At the very least patriotism is inherently selfish. We should be talking about making it better everywhere, not just in a specific place because I happen to live here. I imagine that the response will be "wanting my place to be good doesn't preclude me from wanting other places to be good." Of course, if you want equal "goodness" (for lack of a better term), then its not patriotism in the first place.
Sure, we should be talking about making it better everywhere, but that also includes "here", wherever "here" is. Fact - I have a vote here. I don't have a vote in other countries. So where I have the power to, I want to make it better. I want everywhere to be better, yes, but as long as I want to make this place better, that is still patriotism. Unless you define patriotism as placing your country above all others - which I don't. Just being proud of where you live and wanting to make it better. That does not exclude wanting to make other places better.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby DougP » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:01 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:
I want my country to be good because my family lives here, my friends live here, I live here, and I plan to raise a family here. It is a bit selfish, but I don't give a shit. I want what is best for MY family.

Why should my place be better than theirs? Because its mine, and sometimes its fun to show off? Its fun to be the best?

This is the problem with patriotism. There isn't a compelling reason TO ME, why I should want better for my family, than everyone else. Or, perhaps I should put that the other way, as to make myself clear. There isn't a compelling reason I should want less for other people than my family. If people concerned themselves with improving the lives of everyone, their family's lives would improve also, but if you focus on just your family, you leave everyone else out.

Also, wanting your country to be better doesn't mean you want other countries to be worse off.

I already predicted, and answered, this in my previous post.

Besides, why not start improving your own country first, and then work on to neighboring countries? It would make no sense to randomly choose to try and make country x better, instead of your own.


I've already said earlier in this thread that the entire discussion implies tacit approval of the concept of nation states to begin with. My thoughts, then, are not necessarily bounded by that conceptual constraint. If you take away the artificially constructed (read: MADE UP) nation states, you just have people, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn where said people live.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:14 am UTC

DougP wrote:
This is the problem with patriotism. There isn't a compelling reason TO ME, why I should want better for my family, than everyone else. Or, perhaps I should put that the other way, as to make myself clear. There isn't a compelling reason I should want less for other people than my family. If people concerned themselves with improving the lives of everyone, their family's lives would improve also, but if you focus on just your family, you leave everyone else out.


I don't necessary want less for other people, but I won't shed a tear for them. I care about my friends and family first and foremost. Friends and family are what you live for. Everything else is meaningless when compared to friends and family.


I've already said earlier in this thread that the entire discussion implies tacit approval of the concept of nation states to begin with. My thoughts, then, are not necessarily bounded by that conceptual constraint. If you take away the artificially constructed (read: MADE UP) nation states, you just have people, and quite frankly, I don't give a damn where said people live.


Nation states aren't made up. Their borders were paid for in blood.

I don't care where people live, either. I just care about people who live closer to me more than people who live far away from me.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby DougP » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:35 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:
I don't necessary want less for other people, but I won't shed a tear for them. I care about my friends and family first and foremost. Friends and family are what you live for. Everything else is meaningless when compared to friends and family.


Certainly friends and family are very close to us emotionally, but to say everything else is meaningless is just a world view that I can not comprehend, I am sorry.


Nation states aren't made up. Their borders were paid for in blood.

Non sequitor. Just because borders were "paid for in blood" doesn't make them real. People fight over made up shit all the time. Heres a hint, have you ever seen a political border when you view the earth from space? No, because they aren't real, they are made up and agreed upon IMAGINARY lines.

I don't care where people live, either. I just care about people who live closer to me more than people who live far away from me.

So, what you saying is you DO care where people live, as long as "where" is defined in proximity to you.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:13 am UTC

DougP wrote:

Certainly friends and family are very close to us emotionally, but to say everything else is meaningless is just a world view that I can not comprehend, I am sorry.


Meaningless was too strong a word, I admit, but friends and family are the most important things in life.



Non sequitor. Just because borders were "paid for in blood" doesn't make them real. People fight over made up shit all the time. Heres a hint, have you ever seen a political border when you view the earth from space? No, because they aren't real, they are made up and agreed upon IMAGINARY lines.


Possibly, but quite powerful imaginary lines.


So, what you saying is you DO care where people live, as long as "where" is defined in proximity to you.

[/quote]

I guess.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby überRegenbogen » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:05 pm UTC

Some will lambaste anyone for criticising the president and his cohorts, calling them unpatriotic.

Patriotism definitely does not mean standing behind one's leaders, unconditionally.

The (arbitrarily and opportunistically named) USA Patriot Act is an act for dealing with those pesky patriots.

I want a bumper-sticker that says 'My country before my president'.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Sour Apple » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:19 pm UTC

Ugh. My grandfather is one of those. He says that because he was born here, he has to follow whatever the laws say, no matter what they are. I said, that doesn't really make sense, since at any moment we could begin to have laws saying the complete opposite of what they are right now-- and indeed we are sliding that way.

To me, patriotism is standing behind the PRINCIPLES of the country, not the land, or the people currently in charge. Maybe that's what my bumper sticker could say (only catchier). Since when are the laws and law-makers gods? They're humans. And they're still supposed to abide by the Constitution, which clearly is not the case anymore, seeing as I'm viewed as "radical" whenever I try to tell people that they're breaking the rules of the Constitution.

The treading-on-glass mindset makes me angry. Something that should make us PROUD is being able to say what we want about the government and still having our natural rights as citizens. That's not the case, it seems. Soon, they'll be burning books and people, and we'll be no better off than any of the countries we think we're superior to, brainwashed into believing that because the government decrees it, it must be right.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby TheStranger » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:25 pm UTC

DougP wrote:
Non sequitor. Just because borders were "paid for in blood" doesn't make them real. People fight over made up shit all the time. Heres a hint, have you ever seen a political border when you view the earth from space? No, because they aren't real, they are made up and agreed upon IMAGINARY lines.


Those lines are very real. As real as a flag, a uniform, a holy book, a vow.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Bluecold » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:05 am UTC

Russia is the best country.
They make the nicest looking planes. Tupolev Tu-95, Tu-160, Mig 21, Su-47.. just to name a few. Also, the Kuznetsov NK-12 is solidified manliness.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Clumpy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:29 pm UTC

Patriotism is the belief that artificial boundaries of territory, government or race give one license to act like an elitist prick and elevate themselves and their friends over the rest of humanity.

Well, maybe that's a little strong. I can see the benefit in extolling the virtues of a document like the Constitution of a country designed to promote freedom (of which several exist), but I have no illusions about the use of "patriotism" as a smokescreen for immoral and coercive actions. People who get caught up in the flag or in hero worship forget this. A practical patriotism seems appropriate - pride for the achievements of the founders of your country and understanding that they were people - people who started a revolution and set the stage for a great nation, but people nonetheless. How can a reasonable person be anything other than an internationalist?

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby CaliforniaDreamin » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:02 pm UTC

Sour Apple wrote:
It is a dangerous and tragic thing that, in the US today, patriotism is equated with getting involved in foreign wars... What is being a patriot now, anyway? I thought it meant being a good American citizen-- not forcing everyone else in the whole fucking world to be a good American citizen. People mistake oppression for patriotism, and patriotism for ideals. If people are going to interfere in other countries' business, they shouldn't be allowed to call that patriotism. I mean, since when does loyalty to one's country and its Constitution extend to fighting other peoples' battles?

Being a soldier doesn't automatically make you patriotic. In fact, if you were to be a real patriot, you'd stay at home with your shotgun and make sure that no one and nothing could harm your patria, ex., the US. Wouldn't you? Because if you're off fighting a war in the Middle East, you're not here in case Canada invades or something.

Me: Oh, really? So attacking an entire country is going to save us from a specialized group of terrorists and non-existent non-launched WMDs? And, oh, what about those army bases in half the countries in Asia? Right, right, spreading democracy. Whatever. You're not a patriot."

/

Oh. My. FUCKING. FUCK. If we didn't have enemies before this [which we do], we certainly will after she gets elected to office. Please, someone, get an un-Constitutionally difficult-to-obtain and gun license and shoot me in the face.[/spoiler]


1. Your profanity is a violation of the Terms to which you agreed before being accepted here as a member. What have you to say for your profanity violations?

2. America has a long history, as do most major powers throughout the history of the world, in getting involved with allies. Had America not gotten substantial assistance from France during the Revolutionary War, there well may have been no Constitution and no United States of America.

3. Perhaps you'd prefer that America stayed out of World War II, and let Adolph Hitler take over the entire world.

What about our bases in Asia? How have we hurt them, precisely?

4. The inane rant of "occupying a foreign country" ignores our "occupation" of Germany for over 60 years, and our "occupation" of South Korea for over 50 years.

Stabbing our troops in the back after we took out Saddam Hussein, who may terrorist sympathizers complimented by claiming "at least he kept order" (so did Hitler) is not, repeat NOT "patriotism."

Elie Wiesel said on the occasion of being presented his Nobel Peace Prize, "Choose sides."

Unfortunately millions of Bush-haters have "chosen sides" - with the terrorists.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

1. Your profanity is a violation of the Terms to which you agreed before being accepted here as a member. What have you to say for your profanity violations?


Is that in the default, prepackaged PHPBB terms?

I think it's safe to say that the moderator staff don't give two screaming bastard syphlitic fucks about that shit.

Also, refrain from attempting to make rules calls on other posters. You are not a moderator. Use the report function if need be.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby segmentation fault » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:3. Perhaps you'd prefer that America stayed out of World War II, and let Adolph Hitler take over the entire world.


you know, if we were able to storm Normandy, and succeed, imagine if Hitler tried to storm OUR beaches.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:4. The inane rant of "occupying a foreign country" ignores our "occupation" of Germany for over 60 years, and our "occupation" of South Korea for over 50 years.


which is still stupid. at this point it seems like we own the world because we can just plop a military outpost anywhere we want.

to succeed, you have to be part of the world, not think youre on top of it.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Stabbing our troops in the back after we took out Saddam Hussein, who may terrorist sympathizers complimented by claiming "at least he kept order" (so did Hitler) is not, repeat NOT "patriotism."


and its not sympathizing with terrorists to think rationally by saying "hey, theres no reason to invade Iraq, so we probably shouldnt."

and dont give me that "saddam was bad" crap because theres plenty of bad people out there of whom we pay no mind.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Elie Wiesel said on the occasion of being presented his Nobel Peace Prize, "Choose sides."


blatant irony alert. its not peaceful to choose sides but rather create peace between both.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Bluecold » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:22 pm UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:2. America has a long history, as do most major powers throughout the history of the world, in getting involved with allies. Had America not gotten substantial assistance from France during the Revolutionary War, there well may have been no Constitution and no United States of America.

Wrong. America is very young. European countries have got long histories. China has got a long history. Russia has got a long history. Japan has a long history. America is the new kid on the block, together with Australia.
Nothing wrong with that, but at least get your facts straight.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Silas » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:18 pm UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:2. America has a long history ... [of] getting involved with allies.


Not so incorrect if you parse it carefully.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby TheStranger » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:35 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:
CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Elie Wiesel said on the occasion of being presented his Nobel Peace Prize, "Choose sides."


blatant irony alert. its not peaceful to choose sides but rather create peace between both.


Thats rather hard to do when one/both sides expound the total extermination of the other side.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby CaliforniaDreamin » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:

to succeed, you have to be part of the world, not think youre on top of it.




If anyone thinks they're "on top of the world," it would be Bush-haters. Arrogance is their metier.
Take Democrat Eliot Spitzer, please. Or if you wish, empty suit Obama.

segmentation fault wrote:
and its not sympathizing with terrorists to think rationally by saying "hey, theres no reason to invade Iraq, so we probably shouldnt."


"No reason":
1. Violation of 13 separate United Nations Mandates to disarm.
2. Bill "loathing the military" Clinton's solemn pronouncement that "Saddam Hussein must go."
3. Hanoi John Kerry's claim that "if you don't think Iraq has WMDs, don't vote for me." (2003)
4. Hussein's harboring of terrorists such as Abu Nidal.
5. Hussein's cooperation with different bands of terrorists.
6. Hussein's paying of blood money to surviving families of terrorists who blew innocents to hell
7. "Saddam Hussein killed five to seven million Iraqis, the majority of them Shiites." -National Geographic magazine
8. Was there likewise "no reason to invade Bosnia"?
9. How about Haiti? No reason for Clinton to "invade Haiti"?
10. How about South Korea? Ask 20 million free South Koreans that question. We're still there.
Not a good idea?

[quote user="segmentation fault"]

blatant irony alert. its not peaceful to choose sides but rather create peace between both.[/quote]

"Create peace." Ah yes. The delightful way Neville Chamberlain "created peace" between England and Nazi Germany.

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one side you automatically help out that of the other." --George Orwell

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Rest easy, segmentation fault. Rough men will do the heavy lifting while you revile them and their Commander In Chief.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Bluecold » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:49 pm UTC

Pacifists hamper everything, because historically every invention is made for and in wartime. Computers? WW2, Rockets? WW2. And so on.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

Pacifists hamper everything, because historically every invention is made for and in wartime.


It's true!

Like agriculture! And the various farming, spinning, and weaving machines! and the Steam Engine! And the whole damn industrial revolution! And the Internal Combustion Engine! And all those nifty space travel devices!

.....wait....
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Bluecold » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:59 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Pacifists hamper everything, because historically every invention is made for and in wartime.


It's true!

Like agriculture! And the various farming, spinning, and weaving machines! and the Steam Engine! And the whole damn industrial revolution! And the Internal Combustion Engine! And all those nifty space travel devices!

.....wait....

Yes, especially space rockets was a war effort.
Maybe not everything, but a lot of the things invented were intended for war. Not that weird, because thats were the most money is to be made.
Hell, even those cute Dutch windmills were built for war.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby ++$_ » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:02 am UTC

And antibiotics! And vaccines! And radio! And lasers! And fiber-optics! And electricity! And genetic engineering!

EDIT: I just noticed that we're a bit off topic, but whatever.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Belial » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:04 am UTC

Yes, especially space rockets was a war effort.


Only if you consider a cold war to be war. It's really more just a potential for war.

And actually, it's not that weird that we invent a lot of things for war because we're always at war. We invent a lot of stuff for it, and then we repurpose it to civilian uses. But we also invent a lot of civilian technology from the get-go, too, some of which is then picked up by the military when they see something useful. There's no reason to assume that, if all wars stopped tomorrow, that we wouldn't keep inventing at the same pace. Hell, we might even speed it up because we wouldn't have to go through that pesky "how can I use this to kill some guys" stage of the invention before we got to the truly useful incarnation.

Invention isn't fueled by war. It's fueled by the desire to make our lives longer, better, more comfortable, and more fun. It just so happens that when you're at war, killing the guys that are trying to kill you happens to serve those goals more immediately, so a lot of invention gets turned in that direction.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:46 pm UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:1. Violation of 13 separate United Nations Mandates to disarm.


disarm those wmds that we didnt find?

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:2. Bill "loathing the military" Clinton's solemn pronouncement that "Saddam Hussein must go."


so if some guy in a suit said that i must go, would you rally behind him? and you provide no reason as to why he must go.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:3. Hanoi John Kerry's claim that "if you don't think Iraq has WMDs, don't vote for me." (2003)


again, why is this a reason?

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:4. Hussein's harboring of terrorists such as Abu Nidal.


the alleged 9/11 attackers were living in America, so i guess America harbors terrorists too.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:5. Hussein's cooperation with different bands of terrorists.


kind of like Iran contra.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:6. Hussein's paying of blood money to surviving families of terrorists who blew innocents to hell


you want to go to war for THAT?

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:7. "Saddam Hussein killed five to seven million Iraqis, the majority of them Shiites." -National Geographic magazine


as long as he doesnt kill Americans i could really care less.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:8. Was there likewise "no reason to invade Bosnia"?


no.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:9. How about Haiti? No reason for Clinton to "invade Haiti"?


no.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:10. How about South Korea? Ask 20 million free South Koreans that question. We're still there.


they can free themselves for all i really care. not worth my money or life unless its directly affecting my nation.

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Rest easy, segmentation fault. Rough men will do the heavy lifting while you revile them and their Commander In Chief.


i take a great amount of offense to this. first, i know plenty of soldiers who say that what our awesome commander in chief is doing is ridiculous.

second, if youre so convinced this war is worth fighting, have you served or are currently serving?

im not the one that wants war, so why the FUCK should i fight?
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Felstaff » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:59 pm UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Rest easy, segmentation fault. Rough men will do the heavy lifting while you revile them and their Commander In Chief.


Good lawd, the Mall Ninja hath returned. Quick, Ishmael, the harpoons! Man them. (or grab an MP5K-PDW with red-dot sights)

Sf'nB: Patriotism is to show the love one feels for one's community, and the courage to speak out against its faults.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:05 pm UTC

I'm curious to how much "heavy lifting" California Dreamin' does.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby überRegenbogen » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:49 am UTC

Bluecold wrote:Pacifists hamper everything, because historically every invention is made for and in wartime. Computers? WW2, Rockets? WW2. And so on.


Computers have been around a whole hell of a lot longer than 50 years. Even if you limit the scope to data processing, Hollerith's census tabulation system is a very obvious 19th century example. And it had absolutely nothing to do with war.

Rocketry also pre-dates WW2, and was motivated at least as much by transportation as war.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby überRegenbogen » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:16 am UTC

CaliforniaDreamin wrote:
Sour Apple wrote:What is being a patriot now, anyway? I thought it meant being a good American citizen-- not forcing everyone else in the whole fucking world to be a good American citizen.
[...]
1. Your profanity is a violation of the Terms to which you agreed before being accepted here as a member. What have you to say for your profanity violations?

Curiously, that is a (probably unintentional) example of exactly one of the points that she made elsewhere in the post.

As for that point, let us not forget the whole "government for the people and by the people" concept. That means that the people making the laws are supposed to work for us—not the other way around! When they start behaving as if we, the people do not deserve a voice [i wave a finger at Dubya and his routine flagrant smug arrogance] something is very wrong, and needs to be corrected.

No, i don't hate our President. I don't want him shot, or any such thing (at least not before the court martial). I do want him removed, along with the rest of his self-interested crew. They are—on many fronts—putting their own power and enrichment before the ultimate welfare of our nation.

I do support our troops. Which is why i am angry that they were sent, oh so haphazardly, into peril. Even if it was right for us to invade, it was very poorly planned, with no consideration of closure. (But then, closure would end a very fat revenue stream for Haliburton.)

(Incidentally, comparing the xkcd fora to a our (at least originally intended) government system is not entirely appropriate, as these fora—whilst quite sensibly ruled with benevolence and a light hand—are not a democracy.)
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby überRegenbogen » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:42 am UTC

Felstaff wrote:
CaliforniaDreamin wrote:Good lawd, the Mall Ninja hath returned. Quick, Ishmael, the harpoons! Man them. (or grab an MP5K-PDW with red-dot sights)

/me grabs his trusty NEMA 5-15P and prepares for battle!
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Sour Apple » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:59 am UTC

segmentation fault wrote:[...] its not sympathizing with terrorists to think rationally by saying "hey, theres no reason to invade Iraq, so we probably shouldnt."

and dont give me that "saddam was bad" crap because theres plenty of bad people out there of whom we pay no mind.


Exactly. If we're going to get the bad people, let's get them all.

Oh, wait. This is politics. We have to be SELECTIVE about which bad people we decide to attack. Saddam's not our reason anymore, anyway. Uh... well, we're here to, uh, promote democracy. Yeah, that's it!

Belial wrote:
1. Your profanity is a violation of the Terms to which you agreed before being accepted here as a member. What have you to say for your profanity violations?


Is that in the default, prepackaged PHPBB terms?

I think it's safe to say that the moderator staff don't give two screaming bastard syphlitic fucks about that shit.


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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Tomservo » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:22 pm UTC

As a European, when we wish to gain a negative image of Americans we will simply show some drunk 'Yank' drinking Miller and waving A flag in his back-yard while he converses over what 'Skeeter' his dog can do. Interestingly enough 'Patriotism' is somewhat frowned upon and mocked in Europe considered a sign of weakness and a fevered ego. I can personally understand being proud of one's nation and pleased with what it has contributed to the world. While now this overall happiness with one's country has turned into somewhat of a 'Patriotic Drinking Contest' with many toting 'UK ROCKS US SUCKS' and 'Shaddup WE SAVED YOUR LIMIE ASSES'S'S IN WURLD WARE 2'. I feel as if patriotism has been brought down from the ranks of a good personality trait to a large foible.

I personally dislike patriotism in many forms finding myself wondering how anyone can constantly make note of their nations borders and its accomplishments.

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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby überRegenbogen » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:59 am UTC

Tomservo wrote: 'Patriotism' is somewhat frowned upon and mocked in Europe considered a sign of weakness and a fevered ego. I can personally understand being proud of one's nation and pleased with what it has contributed to the world. While now this overall happiness with one's country has turned into somewhat of a 'Patriotic Drinking Contest' with many toting 'UK ROCKS US SUCKS' and 'Shaddup WE SAVED YOUR LIMIE ASSES'S'S IN WURLD WARE 2'. I feel as if patriotism has been brought down from the ranks of a good personality trait to a large foible.

Sadly, yes, the popular notion of patriotism seems to be little more than that of a fad of acrimony.

In my mind, patriotism is supporting your country morally, doing what you can to keep it on the right track, being part of the soul your country.

If there is something wrong with your country, your job as a patriot is not to shout down its critics. Your job as a patriot is to work toward righting the situation—to make your country what it should be. Support—not noise!
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:12 am UTC

Tomservo wrote:As a European, when we wish to gain a negative image of Americans we will simply show some drunk 'Yank' drinking Miller and waving A flag in his back-yard while he converses over what 'Skeeter' his dog can do. Interestingly enough 'Patriotism' is somewhat frowned upon and mocked in Europe considered a sign of weakness and a fevered ego. I can personally understand being proud of one's nation and pleased with what it has contributed to the world. While now this overall happiness with one's country has turned into somewhat of a 'Patriotic Drinking Contest' with many toting 'UK ROCKS US SUCKS' and 'Shaddup WE SAVED YOUR LIMIE ASSES'S'S IN WURLD WARE 2'. I feel as if patriotism has been brought down from the ranks of a good personality trait to a large foible.

I personally dislike patriotism in many forms finding myself wondering how anyone can constantly make note of their nations borders and its accomplishments.



Can you expand on why you think patriotism is bad, and a sign of 'weakness'?

Oh, and you and other Europeans think you are so high and mighty and look down on patriotism because you lost your balls last century. EDIT: :wink: (added the wink to make sure people realize this part was sarcastic and made in jest).

Seriously. You lost your balls and aren't making kids. Start making babies before all of your nations cultures, economies, bloodlines, and histories are fucked.

About the comment about America being young: 200 odd years is a long time. There are plenty of older countries, but there are plenty of younger ones (think of africa, central asia, balkans, eastern europe, etc).
Last edited by Adalwolf on Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:26 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:Oh, and you and other Europeans think you are so high and mighty and look down on patriotism because you lost your balls last century.


It's so nice to know that I can pretty much find an unacceptable post any time I see your name on the "Recently posted" lineup.

Cut out the attacks and the ridiculous inflammatory bullshit.
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Re: What is "patriotism"?

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:29 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:Oh, and you and other Europeans think you are so high and mighty and look down on patriotism because you lost your balls last century.


It's so nice to know that I can pretty much find an unacceptable post any time I see your name on the "Recently posted" lineup.

Cut out the attacks and the ridiculous inflammatory bullshit.


It was supposed to be a sarcastic, or 'snarky' (i think that is the word used on this forum) remark. Guess I shoulda used the winking smiley. Sorry about the confusion...
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