No sane and rational person

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Gunfingers
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No sane and rational person

Postby Gunfingers » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:04 am UTC

zahlman wrote:For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever once in my life considered that voluntarily joining a military organization is something that a sane, rational person could want to do.

And I consider myself a moderate leftist. But then, I understand American politics to be shifted significantly to the right of those of the entire rest of the developed world. Shrug.

Random related linkage.

Okay, i wanna start by saying i'm not trying to call anyone out here. I don't want to start any sort of bickering about whether or not it's okay to be in the military, and if that's what it descends into, then i shall sacrifice animals to the mod gods that they might lock this shit. That thread already exists. I'm starting this thread pretty much just to satisfy my curiosity.

The opinion in the above quote is not unique. So my question to all of you is this: What is your perception of military life, and what in that perception leads you to think that military service is stupid/immoral/insane/irrational/whatever?

I know i'm not allowed to say this, but i'm gonna say it anyway. Please do not make this about whether or not these perceptions, and the conclusions based thereon, are accurate. I just want to hear from the people who feel that way.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby ++$_ » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:13 am UTC

I don't think joining the military is any of these: stupid/insane/irrational. It's a calculated risk -- you get paid, and you get to do something you believe is good for your country, and you have a small chance of getting hurt. If you're a lumberjack, you also have a small chance of getting hurt, but no one says that being a lumberjack is stupid/insane/irrational.

I do think killing is immoral, though, so you won't find me joining up. I don't think of people who do as murderers -- there's a big gulf between fighting a war and committing murder -- but it's not something I would do. Other people disagree with me on this point, obviously, which I can handle.

Also, I don't like the fact that when you sign up for the military, you're committed for a long time. I like to be able to back out of situations if I find they're getting too dangerous/frightening/weird/whatever for me, which I couldn't do if I joined the military.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Poochy » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:50 am UTC

Personally, I do respect those who join the military. But I think decisions to join the military usually aren't based on logical rationality so much as they are based on emotion and gut feelings. It's kinda like the New Yorker who jumped in front of an oncoming subway train to save someone else - it's a brave and honorable thing to do, but it's not exactly something you decide after standing back and whipping out your TI-89 to calculate the expected return from a rational, objective, and emotionally detached standpoint. I wouldn't call it completely irrational, either, I just don't think rationality is a major consideration in the decision.

That said, I have my own reasons for not wanting to serve in the military. My perception of military life is that you're basically being brainwashed into never questioning your superiors. I like critical thinking and my perpetual skeptical attitude far too much. Then, at least in the US, there's the problem of who exactly your superiors would be, namely a bunch of bumbling incompetent hypocrites known as the U.S. federal government. The same people who constantly spout "support our troops" as a propaganda slogan also keep cutting their benefits and refusing to give them halfway decent pay or compensation for putting their lives on the line. In Taiwan, if you put your life on the line enough in a war and return honorably discharged and in one piece, you're nearly set for life with the benefits. Meanwhile, the U.S. government opened fire on unemployed WWI veterans. And finally, the military is mostly physical work, and some people (myself included) aren't cut out for manual labor.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Ari » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:21 pm UTC

Your title is just a bit misleading, by the way. :)
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Gunfingers » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:46 pm UTC

I pulled it from the quote that inspired this thread. "Morality of Military Service" was taken.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby DougP » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

I could not possibly handle being in the military for one reason. I am extremely anti-authoritarian. I mentioned this in another thread, but I absolutely, under no circumstances would give that much power over my life to another group or person. My perception is that in the military you do what they want, when they want, and you like it. You wake up when they say, you shoot who they want you to shoot, and sleep when they want you to sleep. Since you don't want a thread about the morality of it, I won't go into that here.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby 22/7 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:33 pm UTC

To be honest, I view it in almost exactly the same manner as ++$_ does. I look at it as a job with inherent risks. They don't pay you much, but they cover your room and board, and there aren't really any educational/experience based requirements.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby TheStranger » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:47 pm UTC

I have a deep respect for those who serve in the Armed Forces. This probably comes from my upbringing (my father was in the Navy, I've spent my entire life in areas where the military is a major presence). It also comes from the people I've met who do serve, as well as my study of history/morality.

The general perception of military people as 'brainwashed' is vastly incorrect, as is the perception of them as 'meatheads' (the first d&d campaign i played in was run by a marine).

I had even planed to join the marines (ROTC through college then active after graduation) but was unable to do so because of an injured knee (running over 1/2 mile feels like being smacked with a sledge hammer).

serving one's country is a great honor, and a perfectly rational choice for someone to make.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby edge walker » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:08 pm UTC

I’ll phrase my answer in the spirit of the thread’s title: “to the sound of trumpets.”

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Mr. Beck » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:30 pm UTC

Although I have the utmost respect for those who join the military for valid, well-thought-out personal reasons, I know for a fact that I will never join.
For me, it's pretty simple. There are are only two things that cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on a regular basis: being raped, and experiencing combat. To me, this indicates that not only are these experiences equally horrible, but that nothing else comes close to their effect. In addition, my personal philosophy dictates that I will never willingly kill a person, with the possible exception of the aggressor presenting a clear and immediate threat to the lives of people I love.
And, as others have said, I cannot deal with being stuck in a situation with no way out, nor being forced to do things I know are stupid.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby eds01 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:22 am UTC

I believe that you only have the right to kill someone in direct self defense, i.e. someone is threatening to kill you or your family or whatever. I would only take up arms during an invasion of my country, to kick out the attackers.

I have a deep suspicion of authority, and would worry, if I was in the military, that the people in charge of deploying me would be doing it for selfish/evil reasons.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Kaiyas » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:24 am UTC

I have a deep and profound respect for those in the military. It's neither insane nor stupid, because we need people to defend our nation, and there are those with the physical and mental stamina who are willing to do so. Immoral, perhaps, but war was never pretty. Think of it as a necessary evil.

I personally don't think I'll be joining a combat arm, but If I can't get a nice civilian job, USCE doesn't sound too bad.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby SneakyMongo » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:47 am UTC

My thinking on military service? It is stupid, and I don't respect those who do join the military.
It used to be important, a civic duty if you will. Your nation was frequently at war for its very survival against enemy armies, and your family needed you to defend it, because very rarely would the victorious side refrain from pilliaging the loser. Modernly, this concept is a joke. Large-scale military altercations between nations of a certian level of development (i.e.- in posession of NBC capabilities) are impossible unless 1 party is suicidal. As such, it isn't your civic duty to serve. It isn't even that smart, because the only time you will actually be defending your nation/family is when your country is being self-destructive.
The other end of the spectrum, then, is that it helps others. The problem is that the US government has yet to engage in a major war since WW2/Korea that hasn't ended poorly. Indeed, it seems almost as a rule that where-ever the US army sets foot in the last 50 years, nothing good is left in their wake. And a few wars have been for petty, silly reasons that dragged on and could get you killed, far more for political wrangling then any truly alturistic good.

Thus, I do not respect those who enter military service. Simply putting your life on the line SHOULD NOT get you automatic respect. We don't respect terrorists, do we?
I do respect fire fighters, police officers, coast guard. Because what they are putting their lives on the line for is of great importance.
From what I've heard military life is basically like a college frat but you all go to work at the same place the next morning.
Dougp wrote:I could not possibly handle being in the military for one reason. I am extremely anti-authoritarian.



I become violent if forced into a crowded enviroment for extended periods of time. If we ever re-instate conscription, my platoon is not going to last a very long time.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Freakish » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:42 am UTC

I can only respect defencive military.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby joeframbach » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:01 am UTC

I have a feeling that a lot of these perceptions of the military have been shaped by the 2200 news. Deployment to some middle east country is a possibility, but there are a lot of other reasonable duties for those who enlist. I really wouldn't mind getting a job developing some newfangled piece of technology to go into a bajillion-dollar aircraft. It's something I would have a lot of pride in.
My dad served in the Army Corps of Engineers for 20 years, and I respect him more than any other person in the entire world. He served in Bosnia/Macedonia in peacekeeping. I have much respect for those in service (except for that asshole of a former roommate who was booted from the Marines and ended freshman year with a restraining order).
I've had two roommates in the Air Force. Both are well-respected, well-mannered individuals and I believe they are sane and rational.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby SneakyMongo » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:23 am UTC

joeframbach wrote:I have a feeling that a lot of these perceptions of the military have been shaped by the 2200 news..


1 grandfather was a paratrooper, the other an engineer.
Uncle works on Navy systems.
And have 2 friends in the Army (one female).

So...no 8 8)
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby joeframbach » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:33 am UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:
joeframbach wrote:I have a feeling that a lot of these perceptions of the military have been shaped by the 2200 news..


1 grandfather was a paratrooper, the other an engineer.
Uncle works on Navy systems.
And have 2 friends in the Army (one female).

So...no 8 8)


For clarification, are your previously posted views for those who join the military with the front lines in mind, those who join the military for non-physical technical support, or both? I can understand disrespecting someone if they truly are through-and-through join-to-kill meathead, but I would always respect someone who joins for a specific job away from front-lines.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby SneakyMongo » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:42 am UTC

joeframbach wrote:For clarification, are your previously posted views for those who join the military with the front lines in mind, those who join the military for non-physical technical support, or both? I can understand disrespecting someone if they truly are through-and-through join-to-kill meathead, but I would always respect someone who joins for a specific job away from front-lines.


Its not that I disrespect them. Its that to me, they are useless. So the only respect I give them is "You are employed"-level respect.
Like that video where the soldiers stroll through the door, and the airport gives them a standing ovation? I think that's dumb.

As for my opinion of frontline vs. tech, it depends what the tech is working on. Building a bridge so tanks can move across a swollen river, no. Modifying Atlas rockets for space-travel, yes.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:56 am UTC

How anyone cannot respect soldiers is beyond me. There are some bad apples in the bunch, but overall soldiers are good people.

But hey, it is your right to not respect them.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby SneakyMongo » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:01 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:How anyone cannot respect soldiers is beyond me. There are some bad apples in the bunch, but overall soldiers are good people.

But hey, it is your right to not respect them.


Adalwolf, why is it you respect terrorists, murderers, cultists, and the Iraq insurrgency?
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Adalwolf » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:09 am UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:How anyone cannot respect soldiers is beyond me. There are some bad apples in the bunch, but overall soldiers are good people.

But hey, it is your right to not respect them.


Adalwolf, why is it you respect terrorists, murderers, cultists, and the Iraq insurrgency?


I said soldiers.

But, if you are going to be that way:

Those people you mentioned are all willing to fight and die for what they believe in. I don't agree with them, but at least they stand up for their beliefs.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Poochy » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:31 am UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:Isn't it a valid criticism of Adalwolf's statement?
Putting words in someone else's mouth, demonizing the other side, and the straw man are NEVER valid criticisms and should not be used in an attempt at an intelligent discussion. (Unless you're Stephen Colbert and/or are using them for the sake of satirizing those who use those fallacies seriously.)

A much better way to put your argument would be "But do you support terrorists, murderers, cultists, and the Iraq insurrgency? Probably not. So what do you define as the difference between them and soldiers?" That doesn't reek of bad punditry or flamebait nearly as much.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Kaiyas » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:28 pm UTC

Poochy wrote:
SneakyMongo wrote:Isn't it a valid criticism of Adalwolf's statement?
Putting words in someone else's mouth, demonizing the other side, and the straw man are NEVER valid criticisms and should not be used in an attempt at an intelligent discussion. (Unless you're Stephen Colbert and/or are using them for the sake of satirizing those who use those fallacies seriously.)

A much better way to put your argument would be "But do you support terrorists, murderers, cultists, and the Iraq insurrgency? Probably not. So what do you define as the difference between them and soldiers?" That doesn't reek of bad punditry or flamebait nearly as much.

To answer that question, the U.S. Army isn't often the aggressor, and even when it is, it doesn't bomb other countries simply because they don't like them.

One thing I definitely do not support is undeclared war, but that's caused by the brass, not the actual soldiers.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby marginally_stable » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:13 am UTC

joeframbach wrote: I really wouldn't mind getting a job developing some newfangled piece of technology to go into a bajillion-dollar aircraft. It's something I would have a lot of pride in.


You mean some people go into military and do research? I thought all it involved was operating the high tech stuff and not actually research and development.
I believe the new piece of tech. is developed by scientists and engineers, and operated by tech. people in military.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby joeframbach » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:20 am UTC

marginally_stable wrote:
joeframbach wrote: I really wouldn't mind getting a job developing some newfangled piece of technology to go into a bajillion-dollar aircraft. It's something I would have a lot of pride in.


You mean some people go into military and do research? I thought all it involved was operating the high tech stuff and not actually research and development.
I believe the new piece of tech. is developed by scientists and engineers, and operated by tech. people in military.


R&D is usually contracted out. I had a job offer not too long ago at "General Dynamics C4 Systems," which is contracted by the military to develop such-and-such. I had to turn it down because I already have a full-time job.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby marginally_stable » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:31 am UTC

joeframbach wrote:
marginally_stable wrote:
joeframbach wrote: I really wouldn't mind getting a job developing some newfangled piece of technology to go into a bajillion-dollar aircraft. It's something I would have a lot of pride in.


You mean some people go into military and do research? I thought all it involved was operating the high tech stuff and not actually research and development.
I believe the new piece of tech. is developed by scientists and engineers, and operated by tech. people in military.


R&D is usually contracted out. I had a job offer not too long ago at "General Dynamics C4 Systems," which is contracted by the military to develop such-and-such. I had to turn it down because I already have a full-time job.


Yes, but working at General Dynamics is no way equivalent to enlisting into the army, which is what the topic here supposedly is. You may argue about the moral side of developing weapons etc., but i think thats only tangentially relevant imho.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby aldimond » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:58 am UTC

I don't understand how you can respect people that do tech jobs at the army if you don't respect people that are on the front lines. The tech work is meaningless without force up front. It's a group with common missions, and needs people with different sets of skills to succeed in those missions.

It's my opinion, and one widely held, that societies that want to preserve their way of life need defense forces at some level. That level will vary over time. Whatever the problems of, specifically, the USA, where I live, I generally think it worthy of existence and defense. And I certainly do respect people that keep that force up.

As far as being involved in land wars in Asia, it's hard to know what to say. In some ways, it seem insane and counterproductive to send the US Army there; that's certainly how it's played out. I know I value my personal freedom of employment. For example, I like living in Chicago and if my company gave me no choice but to take an assignment elsewhere I'd quit on the spot. People in the military give up that kind of freedom almost entirely. It's not something I would do; I'd want to choose my causes. But I can understand that rational people can value different things than I do, and I know people that have.

I also understand that people make choices that aren't rational even by their values. Hell, we're people. Not strict machines of reason. I generally hope the best for every person and try to respect and understand everyone's story. Passing judgment comes after understanding, onto, mostly, people that control and manipulate. But that's another story.

tl;dr: Yes, I respect soldiers, even if their choice to become one doesn't seem rational.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby edge walker » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:36 am UTC

Kaiyas wrote:To answer that question, the U.S. Army isn't often the aggressor, and even when it is, it doesn't bomb other countries simply because they don't like them.

Yes – only because it likes their resources too much. The US army is not a tool for racists, only for greedbags.

One thing I definitely do not support is undeclared war, but that's caused by the brass, not the actual soldiers.

That’s a non-sequitur. If there were no soldiers, the brass could not go to war, declared or not. And soldiers never sign up for the army with a “only for declared war” or “only for homeland defence” clause. Going to the army means declaring up front that you will consent to any and all orders given to you and execute them; either you do that and go to the army, or you don’t and don’t. A soldier can disagree all he wants with his administration’s decisions but his disagreement is mute and unsupported by actions, which universally speak louder than words.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby eXS » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:33 am UTC

I'm not sure about sanity and rationality, these are usually traits of pretty evil men (and politicians too) But no man that claims to be against war and the killing of others can join the army. Armies are a prerequisite of wars and therefor ultimately evil and wrong. Also the American view on the army/patriotism is friggin scary, even the left wing scares the shit out of me.

Realize that weapons are built for use, and the army is a weapon, the US have never used it for self defense though thats what they claim its for. its just like the debate about fire arms. "Duurh, its for protection duurh" and then he goes and shoots up some place because his mother didnt love him.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby zenten » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:16 pm UTC

I considered joining the military as a teenager (for when I was 18), but decided against it. I didn't think that giving up my legal rights under our constitution was worth the benefits it would give me. Still, I would have been sane and rational had I decided otherwise, as one can make a reasoned decision that goes either way, as much as one can make a reasoned decision about anything.

I'm also not American mind you, and this was in the 90s.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby wery67564 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:22 pm UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:My thinking on military service? It is stupid, and I don't respect those who do join the military.
It used to be important, a civic duty if you will. Your nation was frequently at war for its very survival against enemy armies, and your family needed you to defend it, because very rarely would the victorious side refrain from pilliaging the loser. Modernly, this concept is a joke. Large-scale military altercations between nations of a certian level of development (i.e.- in posession of NBC capabilities) are impossible unless 1 party is suicidal. As such, it isn't your civic duty to serve. It isn't even that smart, because the only time you will actually be defending your nation/family is when your country is being self-destructive.
The other end of the spectrum, then, is that it helps others. The problem is that the US government has yet to engage in a major war since WW2/Korea that hasn't ended poorly. Indeed, it seems almost as a rule that where-ever the US army sets foot in the last 50 years, nothing good is left in their wake. And a few wars have been for petty, silly reasons that dragged on and could get you killed, far more for political wrangling then any truly alturistic good.

Unless they are in the Coast Guard, doing active pollution control, or saving lives and stuff.

Thus, I do not respect those who enter military service. Simply putting your life on the line SHOULD NOT get you automatic respect. We don't respect terrorists, do we?
I do respect fire fighters, police officers, coast guard. Because what they are putting their lives on the line for is of great importance.
From what I've heard military life is basically like a college frat but you all go to work at the same place the next morning.
Dougp wrote:I could not possibly handle being in the military for one reason. I am extremely anti-authoritarian.



I become violent if forced into a crowded enviroment for extended periods of time. If we ever re-instate conscription, my platoon is not going to last a very long time.



Than you, I'm glad I have garnered your festering hatred for me.

Your logic is both biased and lacking knowledge and that kind of blanket attack is uncalled for.
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Freakish » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:59 pm UTC

wery67564 wrote:Than you, I'm glad I have garnered your festering hatred for me.

Your logic is both biased and lacking knowledge and that kind of blanket attack is uncalled for.


Care to elaborate? What's the lacking knowledge, and how is he biased, other then having negative views of the military and writing a negative post about the military?
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Gunfingers » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Especially in a thread specifically requesting negative views on the military.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby 22/7 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:25 pm UTC

edge walker wrote:
One thing I definitely do not support is undeclared war, but that's caused by the brass, not the actual soldiers.

That’s a non-sequitur. If there were no soldiers, the brass could not go to war, declared or not. And soldiers never sign up for the army with a “only for declared war” or “only for homeland defence” clause. Going to the army means declaring up front that you will consent to any and all orders given to you and execute them; either you do that and go to the army, or you don’t and don’t. A soldier can disagree all he wants with his administration’s decisions but his disagreement is mute and unsupported by actions, which universally speak louder than words.

In short, no. If there were no hammers, I couldn't bash my neighbor's skull in with one. Ban the hammers. Now what am I going to use to insert nails into things? On top of that, it is my understanding that a soldier cannot hide behind "orders" if what they are asked to do is against the law (Geneva maybe?). On top of that, the statement "A soldier can disagree all he wants with his administration’s decisions but his disagreement is mute and unsupported by actions, which universally speak louder than words" is making the *massive* assumption that that soldier joined up during the current administration and will only serve under that administration. It also assumes that one cannot/will not/should not join up under an administration that they support, only under those which it does support.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Blubb3r3ng3l
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby Blubb3r3ng3l » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:30 pm UTC

The whole contributing to a war I feel isn't necessary and has taken too many lives, and a large degree of pacifism prevents me. I understand it to be rational to those who feel a strong sense of nationalism (or patriotism... people call it different things) or a duty to our country, but I have other ways I can serve my country, and am more concerned with the world than my oil futures. I have better and more helpful things I can do for the world than shooting, or contributing to shooting other people. If I wouldn't be thrown in jail, I would withhold a portion of my taxes just so I knew I wasn't contributing directly to the war (a la Stranger than Fiction). Basically, there are other, more beneficial to what I feel is important, things I can do for the world.
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edge walker
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby edge walker » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:If there were no hammers, I couldn't bash my neighbor's skull in with one. Ban the hammers. Now what am I going to use to insert nails into things? On top of that, it is my understanding that a soldier cannot hide behind "orders" if what they are asked to do is against the law (Geneva maybe?).

Ah yes, a solider who only obeys lawful orders is in the clear, since obviously no immoral laws ever get passed.

On top of that, the statement "A soldier can disagree all he wants with his administration’s decisions but his disagreement is mute and unsupported by actions, which universally speak louder than words" is making the *massive* assumption that that soldier joined up during the current administration and will only serve under that administration. It also assumes that one cannot/will not/should not join up under an administration that they support, only under those which it does support.

You’re reading things into my statement that I did not say and missing things I did say.

The point is that as a soldier, you sign away your right to determine your own actions regardless of which administration you’re under and whether or not you support their decisions, and you know this going in. Whether you signed up during an administration that you supported means naught, because you knew going in that administrations change and that people get elected to the top that you’ll possibly disagree with on fundamental issues. A soldier consents to making his administration’s will his own, no matter what it may be and why. His own morals and ethics have no bearing on his actions – cannot have any –, outside of being given unlawful orders (as you pointed out).

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wery67564
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby wery67564 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:19 pm UTC

Clarification, don't hate all of the millitary if you don't understand all of the functions.

Case in point: I work for the coast guard, I have an aversion to violence, I am currently a part of the coast guard band. The coast guard does have afloat units in other countries but seldom do they provide more than a support role, and it requires that you volunteer for it. I am going to go to school for Marine Science Technician training which will mean I inspect foreign vessels for EPA regs and punish as fit.

I can see how you don't respect an invading force but to not respect the rest of the people, like NOAA, PHS, and imo the coast guard is too be brutish and uncalled for.

You pay taxes? You support the war with more resources than I do when you come down to brass tacks.

Sidenote: He is biased because he assumes that all millitary=same
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby zenten » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

edge walker wrote:The point is that as a soldier, you sign away your right to determine your own actions regardless of which administration you’re under and whether or not you support their decisions, and you know this going in. Whether you signed up during an administration that you supported means naught, because you knew going in that administrations change and that people get elected to the top that you’ll possibly disagree with on fundamental issues. A soldier consents to making his administration’s will his own, no matter what it may be and why. His own morals and ethics have no bearing on his actions – cannot have any –, outside of being given unlawful orders (as you pointed out).


Or the soldier is willing to disobey orders if they are immoral, and is willing to face the consequences.

edge walker
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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby edge walker » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

Point conceded.

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Re: No sane and rational person

Postby 22/7 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

zenten wrote:
edge walker wrote:The point is that as a soldier, you sign away your right to determine your own actions regardless of which administration you’re under and whether or not you support their decisions, and you know this going in. Whether you signed up during an administration that you supported means naught, because you knew going in that administrations change and that people get elected to the top that you’ll possibly disagree with on fundamental issues. A soldier consents to making his administration’s will his own, no matter what it may be and why. His own morals and ethics have no bearing on his actions – cannot have any –, outside of being given unlawful orders (as you pointed out).


Or the soldier is willing to disobey orders if they are immoral, and is willing to face the consequences.

Thank you zenten, got to it before I could.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!


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