please can we all talk about abortions? that would be nice.

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Postby rpoulin79 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:35 am UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:
Fetuses generally dont have friends, and arent particularly helping the planet,




Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews

Toeofdoom wrote: a fetus has much less connection to the world than a baby that has actually been born.


Neither do people in comas, or with alzhiemers, austism, deaf/blind, etc... Lets get rid of them too!
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Postby Gordon » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:36 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Do you ever wake up in the morning and give thanks you weren't aborted?


No. No more than I give thanks that I happened to be the lucky sperm. Or that my species happened to evolve. At any point in the past ten billion years, a simple toss of the dice could have negated my existence before I even experienced it.

And I wouldn't have known the difference.

Or depending on your thoughts on the soul, perhaps I would have found a different body and mind.

A fetus will develop into a life. Menstration won't.


Not if you don't do the things that will make it develop. If you inseminate an ovum, it will develop into life. If you gestate a fetus, it will develop into life. Failing to do either of these, it won't. It's all just a series of lines, whose importance is entirely subjective.

You like to draw your line at conception, I suppose.

Others draw it at birth.

Some even draw it before conception, and ban birth control and masturbation to stem the tide of lost gametes.

Some peoples, historically, have drawn the line substantially after birth.

Does it not seem odd to you to try to impose your own subjective line on others, when there is so much disagreement?




Old Testament: It's not a soul until it's baptised (the baby can be born and if it dies before it's baptised, it's only the baby that suffers eternal hell (aka you win)).


New Testament: It's not a soul until it's concieved (you have sex and a baby is made, it's a soul at any stage).



Actually read the scripture.

If you actually pay attention to the *bible* (or bibble) it contradicts itself quite steadily. If you take it as a bunch of stories to livedby then it's a good read, if you take it as just a bunch of stories, then it's still a good read, just don't be waiting for four guys on horses with flaming swords..




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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:42 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews


That's entirely out of context, and only said to play into those people who may be offended by it. Crafty way to get those people on your side, but it is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. You'd make a good republican.


Edited to add:


rpoulin79 wrote:
Toeofdoom wrote: a fetus has much less connection to the world than a baby that has actually been born.


Neither do people in comas, or with alzhiemers, austism, deaf/blind, etc... Lets get rid of them too!


Neither do cows or turkeys. Anyone fancy a burger? Image
Last edited by Fluff on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:45 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:44 am UTC

Gordon- Awesome post, but save it for someone who's actually religious.

You will have your day :P


[EDIT]
rpoulin79 wrote:
Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews



Untrue. Hitler spoke German.

But seriously, "May I have another of those delicious waffles" sounds like something Hitler would say too.
Last edited by Owijad on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gordon » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:44 am UTC

Fluff wins my respects back... now I just have to find them.....
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RealGrouchy wrote:I still remember the time when Gordon left. I still wake up in the middle of the night crying and screaming his name.
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Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:44 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Toeofdoom wrote:
Fetuses generally dont have friends, and arent particularly helping the planet,




Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews


Good for you. Guess how many people I'm quoting whenever i say "Fuck off"?

Toeofdoom wrote: a fetus has much less connection to the world than a baby that has actually been born.


Neither do people in comas, or with alzhiemers, austism, deaf/blind, etc... Lets get rid of them too!


Actually, those people have far more connection to the world that a baby that was just born.... so... maybe not kill them?

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Postby German Sausage » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:44 am UTC

then maybe lungs would have worked better, as one of your many (worthwhile and well-made) points is based around life=birth, rather than life=some stage of gestation.
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Postby rpoulin79 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:45 am UTC

Fluff wrote:
That's entirely out of context, and only said to play into those people who may be offended by it.


Not really. Just trying to highlight the fallacy in the previous argument.
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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:47 am UTC

then maybe lungs would have worked better, as one of your many (worthwhile and well-made) points is based around life=birth, rather than life=some stage of gestation.


True. But that point was based around pro-lifers choosing to focus on the heart when they're talking about development solely because it's invested with so much undeserved significance. Talking about the lungs would be pointless for them, but the liver proves the same point with far less string-pulling.
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Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:48 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Fluff wrote:
That's entirely out of context, and only said to play into those people who may be offended by it.


Not really. Just trying to highlight the fallacy in the previous argument.


You pointed out nothing. My point was that fetuses have very little connection to the world, except through their family, who are expecting a new relative, and that really is their only connection. If their family doesnt want a new relative, because it would make their lives much harder, who else does it affect?
Last edited by Toeofdoom on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:49 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby rpoulin79 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:48 am UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:
Good for you. Guess how many people I'm quoting whenever i say "Fuck off"?



And with that, what had been an enjoyable debate turns into juvenile attack. I guess I'm a little disappointed.
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:50 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:Not really. Just trying to highlight the fallacy in the previous argument.


Well he was right in saying that fetuses haven't generally got friends, and aren't helping the planet. They're not, are they? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen fetuses recycling.

Aborted fetuses are helping the planet more if we can recycle them into stem cell lines for research.

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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:50 am UTC

And with that, what had been an enjoyable debate turns into juvenile attack. I guess I'm a little disappointed.


Not really. He was legitimately pointing out a fallacy in your "guess what awful guy might possibly have said something like that ever" argument.
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Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:51 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Toeofdoom wrote:
Good for you. Guess how many people I'm quoting whenever i say "Fuck off"?



And with that, what had been an enjoyable debate turns into juvenile attack. I guess I'm a little disappointed.


Your comment was pretty insulting really. It was an attack, and false, so...

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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:52 am UTC

Toe, play nice plz. We're trying to talk.
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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:52 am UTC

Your comment was pretty insulting really. It was an attack, and false, so...


Seriously. Invoke godwin's law and then accuse other folk of being bad debaters for criticizing you for it? Bleh.
Last edited by Belial on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:53 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rachel » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:52 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Toeofdoom wrote:
Fetuses generally dont have friends, and arent particularly helping the planet,




Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews


Are you kidding me? Did you just compare abortion to the attempted genocide of a race? It's not even nearly the same thing. NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

Toeofdoom wrote: a fetus has much less connection to the world than a baby that has actually been born.


Neither do people in comas, or with alzhiemers, austism, deaf/blind, etc... Lets get rid of them too!


I am thinking that by 'connection' Toe meant friends, family ect. Not your senses. I could be wrong here (it is a very real possibility), but ... seriously.


Edited: To play nicely. Sorry I asked you if you were fucking dumb.
Last edited by rachel on Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:00 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:58 am UTC

Rachel, play nice plz. We're trying to talk.

oh, and Toe- please label your edits.
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Postby Peshmerga » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:58 am UTC

rpoulin79 wrote:
Toeofdoom wrote:
Fetuses generally dont have friends, and arent particularly helping the planet,




Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews


Ok; a fetus obviously can't be judged by how many friends it has or it's direct involvement in helping the planet, but the Hitler comment made no sense. A fetus is simply potential for life; to say a fetus isn't useful for humanity is like saying large rivers can never be used to generate electric energy.

rpoulin79's comment is, infact, a logical fallacy. Yet Toe's comment is even worse in that it assumes life is only precious when convenient.

But Fluff does raise the good point of using them for research to "further" humanity. To what end are we progressing, though, and is it worth the means to that end?
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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:01 am UTC

But Fluff does raise the good point of using them for research to "further" humanity. To what end are we progressing, though, and is it worth the means to that end?


If you reject the idea that a fetus is human before birth, then....yes. The benefit of better health for people who *already* far outweighs the pretty much insubstantial cost.
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:05 am UTC

Peshmerga wrote:
But Fluff does raise the good point of using them for research to "further" humanity. To what end are we progressing, though, and is it worth the means to that end?


Medical research for one - Treatment and possible cures for diseases.

As far as 'furthering' humanity - I don't like to think of it as 'progress'. Humans are explorers, and always have been. The next frontier is, of course, space travel, and how to adapt the human body to endure, and eventually be repaired from, potential exposures to radiation and whatever else may crop up during lunar and interplanetary excursions.

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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:11 am UTC

Fluff wrote:
Peshmerga wrote:
But Fluff does raise the good point of using them for research to "further" humanity. To what end are we progressing, though, and is it worth the means to that end?


Medical research for one - Treatment and possible cures for diseases.

As far as 'furthering' humanity - I don't like to think of it as 'progress'. Humans are explorers, and always have been. The next frontier is, of course, space travel, and how to adapt the human body to endure, and eventually be repaired from, potential exposures to radiation and whatever else may crop up during lunar and interplanetary excursions.



I wouldn't say that that's a matter of course. There's many an area that humans could explore further besides space.

I'm actually not sold on the idea that space travel will ever be highly useful, but I am no scientist.
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Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:11 am UTC

Peshmerga wrote:Ok; a fetus obviously can't be judged by how many friends it has or it's direct involvement in helping the planet, but the Hitler comment made no sense. A fetus is simply potential for life; to say a fetus isn't useful for humanity is like saying large rivers can never be used to generate electric energy.

rpoulin79's comment is, infact, a logical fallacy. Yet Toe's comment is even worse in that it assumes life is only precious when convenient.


Thats not exactly what I meant, but I mean alot of things at once and cant figure out how to express them all properly sometimes. Heres a short list:

* When something is "alive" or "concious" or when life becomes "precious" is not possible to determine exactly. I believe that all life is precious, if everything is in balance.

* Things arent in a good balance right now. Most forests have disappeared, and if we continue to increase our population, the forests wont come back, or the animals that lived there etc. Global warming is destroying alot of natural wonders too.

* The more people something affects negatively, and with increased severity, the worse it is. An abortion does affect people negatively, but compared to a child or adult dying is much less, and if compared to the child being born and the overall effect that has on the life of the family and the environment, it can be better than that in some cases too.

* Overall, I believe there are too many people for this planet as it is, and if we can decrease that, or slow down our expansion, without hurting people (as much), that is good. Abortion is one way of doing this.

And I will try to label my edits...

Edit: Its a "short" list now :P, and a spelling mistake or two...

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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:18 am UTC

But seriously, "May I have another of those delicious waffles" sounds like something Hitler would say too.


I didn't notice this edit until just now. I lol'd. A lot.
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:18 am UTC

What is the point in raising an unwanted child, especially in a family (or just a single mother) who can't support it. There are many other animals in the world who will reject a newborn if they know they cannot look after it (the Panda comes to mind - if it gives birth to twins, it will often reject one of them). What makes us so different?


Also, REALLY who does anyone think they are, to go and tell people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies, and their own genetic material? If you want my aborted baby to live so much, then HERE. YOU stick it in your OWN tummy and let it grow, and YOU look after it.

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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:19 am UTC

Shiny opinions.

My gut says - If the abortion does less damage to the mother and family than the child's life would to to it, her, and them, I call it a win. But I haven't thought enough about it to formulate a true opinion, so nobody challenge me please :P.

Thanks for the effort, Toe :P. It's not a huge deal, but when I read the whole thread, and see you quoted as telling him to fuck off, I gets confused :P
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Postby Belial » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:19 am UTC

Also, REALLY who does anyone think they are, to go and tell people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies, and their own genetic material? If you want my aborted baby to live so much, then HERE. YOU stick it in your OWN tummy and let it grow, and YOU look after it.


And as long as it's jury-rigged to the mom's circulatory system, it *is* part of her body, just as much as a tumor is...

Also, I've always thought that anyone who favors banning abortion so much should be required to adopt at least one kid before they are allowed to have their own.

After all, if adoption is such a better option, *someone* should be housing those kids.
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Postby German Sausage » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:23 am UTC

i was having a conversation with someone, and she had a tumor near one of her kidneys, and it turned out to be a potential sibling. with hair.
its not all that uncommon, apparently.
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Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:23 am UTC

Owijad wrote:Thanks for the effort, Toe :P. It's not a huge deal, but when I read the whole thread, and see you quoted as telling him to fuck off, I gets confused :P


Actually, I was not saying any such thing directly. I was suggesting that I do say it at some points... in a manner that may have suggested that I could say it at that point. Somewhat like that arkel v. pressam reply or whatever it is...

EDIT:
German Sausage wrote:i was having a conversation with someone, and she had a tumor near one of her kidneys, and it turned out to be a potential sibling. with hair.
its not all that uncommon, apparently.


Yeah, I've heard about stuff like that too... but I doubt its much of an issue to remove it in that case... to most people anyway.

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Postby fjafjan » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:44 am UTC

Abortions reduce crime since peopel are not forced to raise unwanted babies or babies they cannot care for, it reduces the suffering of the people the commit crimes against, and themselves for being so desperate as to turn to crime.

here

Further I do not support abortion at any stage, for clarificiation, some stages are okay, others not, I think the swedish 18 wee rule is pretty good, also the fact that you can apply for special causes with "social services" like entity.
Claiming that any potential for life is sacred then it would somehow be unethical to let ANY egg go enpregnated if it can be, and thus all women should be pregnant all the time, and you are probably retarded.

And cmon, the hitler comment was pretty stupid, saying "They [unemployed] are largely uselss and a cost to society" is also something hitler might have siad about [jews] or [handicapped] etc, that does not make it untrue or implies that you want to have them all killed. True that argument that fetuses are useless to society is not exactly a solid argument for killing them, but the fact that they have no real relationship to anybody, except probably their mother, who is the one making the decesion, it does hold some water.
The lack of consciousness is really alot more solid, I do not mind killing a cow, or a pig, assuming it's done in a humane way, ie limited suffering, a fetus might at best have the consciousness of something like an ant, in the early stages of development.
Killing an ant for no purpose is a bit cruel, i'll admit, but I don't concern myself with it, especially with all the good things that can come of it.

Also I would like to refute the "potential" argument, simply because arguing that something COULD BE, is both false in a way since you cannot predict the future, maybe you would have misscarried that baby you aborted, or maybe it would have died of that sudden infrancy death, the proper name evades me.
Should you then also make it illegal to not take your kid to football practise because of all the kids he COULD meet, or try and have a child at any possibilty, since you COULD have a child, that egg too is a potential for life, it just needs to be ensaminated, just like a fetus needs to grow in the mothers womb before actually becoming a human.
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Postby Gelsamel » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:51 am UTC

I say we kill anyone who is useless.

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Postby fjafjan » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:55 am UTC

I say we give the right of death to the parents, or other next of kind, of anyone who has no mind.
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Postby German Sausage » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:08 pm UTC

SIDS, or sudden infant death syndrome is what you're thinking of, fjaf.
and we havent even got to what might happen if the tyke is given and english nanny :twisted:
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Postby Grincement » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:12 pm UTC

German Sausage wrote:and we havent even got to what might happen if the tyke is given and english nanny :twisted:


My nanny was great, scared the hell out of me but not done me any harm!


Anyways: abortion
So much has been said and I would love to comment on it all but it would take so long!!
(also apologies if i direct it at the wrong person)

Fluff: Your idea about the aborted fetus being used for medical research is seriously (to me) a fantastic idea. I feel that if someone agrees with abortion then they will probably be more open to the idea of stem cell research etc. I know if I ever ended up in the position of having an abortion then I would have no problem with allowing for medical research.

When it comes to saying that people have to face up to their responsibilities, I still stand by that accidents may happen. Yes, probably in those cases more care should have been taken but I feel the world is getting obsessed with always "being prepared". You're not going to ever be able to stop young, naive teens having sex and making mistakes yet why should their entire life then be decided on one stupid mistake (part of me wishes i could scream at these types of teens and tell them to stop being so f***ing irresponsible) but isn't that what growing up is all about, learning from your mistakes however, I do not feel you should be punished for the rest of your life purely because of that one time. If anything, there should be a much better education about sex...in the UK i feel sex education starts too late for the modern day kid. By 10 you know about sex so surely at aged 10 you should also already be learning about safe sex, might help reduce "accidents"

My final point sorta ties in with the "when to draw the line". I feel that life has become thought of as too precious. Extremely premature babies who have a huge chance of having brain damage who are resuscitated, to me that is wrong! We should take into account the quality of life not just that "every life is precious". It sounds harsh, and my younger self screams at me when I say this, but some lives are worth more than others. I'm not talking about rich or poor, I'm talking about life quality. What kind of life is it to live on machines all your life or in fact not comprehend you are alive at all due to brain damage. With regards to abortion, what kind of life will it be for the child and the mother (family) if the child is unwanted. If I had be an unwanted baby (which, i am thankful that I am not) i would have wanted to be aborted if it had meant ruining my mothers life!

N.B Every sperm is NOT sacred (and it smells funny) and I believe probably only 2 or 3 of the eggs in my ovaries are going to be sacred to me!
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:15 pm UTC

Squeak wrote:
When it comes to saying that people have to face up to their responsibilities, I still stand by that accidents may happen. Yes, probably in those cases more care should have been taken but I feel the world is getting obsessed with always "being prepared". You're not going to ever be able to stop young, naive teens having sex and making mistakes yet why should their entire life then be decided on one stupid mistake (part of me wishes i could scream at these types of teens and tell them to stop being so f***ing irresponsible) but isn't that what growing up is all about, learning from your mistakes however, I do not feel you should be punished for the rest of your life purely because of that one time. If anything, there should be a much better education about sex...in the UK i feel sex education starts too late for the modern day kid. By 10 you know about sex so surely at aged 10 you should also already be learning about safe sex, might help reduce "accidents"



Absolutely! It's not only that, but sex is a NATURAL process! It baffles me how many people think it's OK to deny that, and pretend it's some kind of horrible act, punishable by eternal damnation!

People are not going to just stop shagging, are they !!!


My final point sorta ties in with the "when to draw the line". I feel that life has become thought of as too precious. Extremely premature babies who have a huge chance of having brain damage who are resuscitated, to me that is wrong! We should take into account the quality of life not just that "every life is precious". It sounds harsh, and my younger self screams at me when I say this, but some lives are worth more than others. I'm not talking about rich or poor, I'm talking about life quality. What kind of life is it to live on machines all your life or in fact not comprehend you are alive at all due to brain damage. With regards to abortion, what kind of life will it be for the child and the mother (family) if the child is unwanted. If I had be an unwanted baby (which, i am thankful that I am not) i would have wanted to be aborted if it had meant ruining my mothers life!

N.B Every sperm is NOT sacred (and it smells funny) and I believe probably only 2 or 3 of the eggs in my ovaries are going to be sacred to me!



Agree with you wholeheartedly. Not only that, but those birth defects are then passed on genetically if those babies happen to grow up and have their own kids, making for a sicker, more defected population in general. Evolution, it works, bitches!

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Postby Grincement » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:40 pm UTC

Fluff wrote:Agree with you wholeheartedly. Not only that, but those birth defects are then passed on genetically if those babies happen to grow up and have their own kids, making for a sicker, more defected population in general. Evolution, it works, bitches!


Yes, evolution works or rather worked for us before we decided we were better than it and started adapting our environment rather than adapting to our environment.

Fluff, make sure you have lots of babies...then the world can be populated with intelligent people *hopes*
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:47 pm UTC

Squeak wrote:
Fluff, make sure you have lots of babies...then the world can be populated with intelligent people *hopes*




:: Currently accepting applications for intelligent men ::

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:47 pm UTC

Fluff wrote:
Squeak wrote:
Fluff, make sure you have lots of babies...then the world can be populated with intelligent people *hopes*




:: Currently accepting applications for intelligent men ::


Legally or binary-biologically?
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Postby Owijad » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:16 pm UTC

Squeak wrote:
Fluff wrote:Agree with you wholeheartedly. Not only that, but those birth defects are then passed on genetically if those babies happen to grow up and have their own kids, making for a sicker, more defected population in general. Evolution, it works, bitches!


Yes, evolution works or rather worked for us before we decided we were better than it and started adapting our environment rather than adapting to our environment.


Your post kinda bothers me. :roll:

We, as a race, never decided we were better than evolution. We've been practicing all the same practices since well before evolution was a commonly accepted theory, just on a smaller scale.

And if you look at the time that humans have been having a drastic effect on their environment, it's practically nothing on an evolutionary scope. You're misunderstanding the idea, I think. We haven't stopped evolution at all, you just have a tiny sample to go from.

It's like seeing photos of a construction site in many stages of building, then walking past it three times in one day and saying "Hey, they stopped building that thing. Look, no progress!"
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Postby Fluff » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:21 pm UTC

Owijad wrote:And if you look at the time that humans have been having a drastic effect on their environment, it's practically nothing on an evolutionary scope. You're misunderstanding the idea, I think. We haven't stopped evolution at all, you just have a tiny sample to go from.

It's like seeing photos of a construction site in many stages of building, then walking past it three times in one day and saying "Hey, they stopped building that thing. Look, no progress!"



It's not like that at all. I think you've misunderstood Squeak's post - Of course we haven't 'stopped' evolution. I believe she were referring to the fact that we've managed to branch off our own way of doing things, namely taking conscious control of some evolutionary processes through biological research.


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