Top 10 social justice issues of our time

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Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby abrenecki » Tue May 06, 2008 7:41 am UTC

It's actually a school assignment to do a survey on this (SACE Stage 1 Studies in Religion) but I'm interested on the xkcd community's opinion on this question (and I have a limited amount of people I can survey IRL that aren't idiots):

What, in your opinion, are the top 10 social justice issues of our time?

Seeing as we're talking about social justice I thought Serious Business would be a good place to post this - if I'm wrong, move it by all means.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Iv » Tue May 06, 2008 8:37 am UTC

10 is a high number but :

- Everybody deserves food
- Everybody deserves a place to sleep
- Everybody deserves health
- Everybody deserves education

That seems like good starts

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Wormwood » Tue May 06, 2008 10:38 am UTC

Is this generalisations, like the Iv's ones, or specific issues?

If general issues, everyone deserves to be part of government of their country is my big one.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Flagpole Sitta » Tue May 06, 2008 1:44 pm UTC

Iv wrote:10 is a high number but :

- Everybody deserves food
- Everybody deserves a place to sleep
- Everybody deserves health
- Everybody deserves education

That seems like good starts


These are of course important things, but they are pretty ubiquitous. I think the question may be more geared to what's important now, rather then fifty years ago. And of course, which culture are we talking about? In many, many places across the world, (Including the USA) racism and sexism are still major stumbling blocks. But to me the most contentious issue right now is gay rights. But I also believe education should be the number one priority, as if everyone has been educated then they can make educated choices for themselves and change their world without help.
Some other big ones from where I stand: Death penalty, abortion, immigration (that’s just for the US, I have no idea what kind of issue immigration is in other countries) how much powerful countries should interfere in the affairs of less powerful countries (Darfur? Iraq? Israel?) There are more…
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Iv » Tue May 06, 2008 1:56 pm UTC

FlagPoleSitta wrote:
Iv wrote:10 is a high number but :

- Everybody deserves food
- Everybody deserves a place to sleep
- Everybody deserves health
- Everybody deserves education

That seems like good starts


These are of course important things, but they are pretty ubiquitous. I think the question may be more geared to what's important now, rather then fifty years ago.

Uh... I request to learn where, apart from Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, people without revenue can get all the food they need to survive, a place to sleep, a decent healthcare and a decent education. I can surely list a few countries where none of this is provided.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby BeetlesBane » Tue May 06, 2008 2:38 pm UTC

Iv, I suspect you missed the word ubiquitous in FlagPoleSitta's comment. "... what's important now, rather then fifty years ago," seems, to me, be to reference the lack of any easy start to dealing with these issues. I agree with you that ten is a (prohibitively) large number. It was probably given in the assignment with the intent of discouraging generalities; unfortunate;y, it forces conforming responses to be too specific (ie: "the use of torture by [insert favorite villain]" instead of "the use of torture").
Responding to the OP, I would give the generalized "intolerance".

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby furthur » Tue May 06, 2008 10:30 pm UTC

Iv wrote:10 is a high number but :

- Everybody deserves food
- Everybody deserves a place to sleep
- Everybody deserves health
- Everybody deserves education

That seems like good starts



I heard that. While I agree that issues of the day in more developed countries (racism, sexism, gay rights, abortion, etc.) need to be on this list, I believe that ensuring the most basic needs of human beings are provided for is far more important. Not to go all Bob Geldoff on you, but when I see how decadent and luxurious life is in the West I feel ashamed that most of us don't much care that people are dying on the other side of the world for want of something as simple as clean drinking water. If all the people living in poverty (in every country) were given the same access to healthcare, sanitation, education, and all the other things we take for granted, I believe the human race as a whole would benefit from the increase in potential. Again, I'm not trying to do a Bono impression, it just seems selfish to me that we won't share our good fortune with people who really need it.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby e946 » Tue May 06, 2008 11:38 pm UTC

In the US, i would say one of the biggest problems is how shitty many people's educations are. Lots off people get screwed before the even get to start life because their schools can't afford good teachers, good books, etc.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Wed May 07, 2008 12:11 am UTC

In no particular order:

1. Gay rights - Gay marrige is a large part of this, but so is the not-insignificant amount of discrimination and demonization gay people suffer.
2. Heathens - Lack of god belief is a social handicap in most parts of the world, and even potentially lethal in others. In the US, atheists are the most hated minority.
3. The "War on Drugs" - A ridiculous waste of time, money, and lives. This "war" has been used as an excuse to trample on civil liberties for decades now and, quite frankly, the idea behind it is ludicrous and immoral. It must end.
4. Genocidal Pricks - Should not be allowed to live. We have the ability to make this the case.
5. The attacks on science - Science has been under assault by a small but very vocal and well funded portion of the population for a while now. See the ID "controversy" for a great example. The govt meddling in abstinance-only sex ed, and climate change research are also symptoms of this. Science should be completely apart from political meddling.
6. Anti GM hysteria - more people are starving than need to because of this, and there is no evidence that GM foodstuffs are worse for you than "normal" ones. Goes without saying that normal ones are effectively GM also, just via the old fashioned way that takes longer.
7. "Culture of Life" - Something that is anything but. Under this are: anti-choice proponents, anti-contraception proponents, opponents of stem-cell research, cloning opponents, etc.
8. Militirization of police forces - Prolifiration of unneeded SWAT teams, the use of such to serve warrants that don't justify that level of force, and the ensuing civilian deaths. Many examples available.
9. Lack of immigrant assimilation - Causing problems all over Europe, and to a smaller extent the US.
10. Eminent domain - See Kelo v City of New London

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby TheBeeCeeEmm » Wed May 07, 2008 12:42 am UTC

Also in no certain order:

1.)Drugs: Most should be legal, but regulated. Taxed where applicable. Put to use in medicine and treatment of people with any kinds of disorders.

2.) Abortion: Women can choose. No government intervention - period. (no pun intended lulz lulz)

3.) Gay marriage: Perfectly legal. No government intervention (except to make it legal) - period.

4.) Socialize healthcare.

5.) Socialize college.

6.) Cut back war/military spending, reduce the army.

7.) Deal with the current K-12 teaching problems. I don't have an answer.

8.) Religion: Would be nice if it was abolished, but for now, it would be nice to ACTUALLY have it separated from state. If a politician makes a decision based on an easily identifiable religious reason, he should be removed.

9.) The internet, movies, games, and other forms of entertainment: Need to remain unregulated / become unregulated.

10.) Stop illegal immigration, and stop giving American benefits to illegal immigrants. If you're an American citizen, you have rights - if not, you have none beyond your basic human rights.

I won't be changing my mind on any of these, but I'm willing to give my reasoning if anyone asks.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Kaiyas » Wed May 07, 2008 1:02 am UTC

TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:Also in no certain order:

1.)Drugs: Most should be legal, but regulated. Taxed where applicable. Put to use in medicine and treatment of people with any kinds of disorders.

2.) Abortion: Women can choose. No government intervention - period. (no pun intended lulz lulz)

3.) Gay marriage: Perfectly legal. No government intervention (except to make it legal) - period.

4.) Socialize healthcare.

5.) Socialize college.

6.) Cut back war/military spending, reduce the army.

7.) Deal with the current K-12 teaching problems. I don't have an answer.

8.) Religion: Would be nice if it was abolished, but for now, it would be nice to ACTUALLY have it separated from state. If a politician makes a decision based on an easily identifiable religious reason, he should be removed.

9.) The internet, movies, games, and other forms of entertainment: Need to remain unregulated / become unregulated.

10.) Stop illegal immigration, and stop giving American benefits to illegal immigrants. If you're an American citizen, you have rights - if not, you have none beyond your basic human rights.

I won't be changing my mind on any of these, but I'm willing to give my reasoning if anyone asks.


I'd like to know the reasoning behind 1 and 6.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby TheBeeCeeEmm » Wed May 07, 2008 1:08 am UTC

Kaiyas wrote:
TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:Also in no certain order:

1.)Drugs: Most should be legal, but regulated. Taxed where applicable. Put to use in medicine and treatment of people with any kinds of disorders.

2.) Abortion: Women can choose. No government intervention - period. (no pun intended lulz lulz)

3.) Gay marriage: Perfectly legal. No government intervention (except to make it legal) - period.

4.) Socialize healthcare.

5.) Socialize college.

6.) Cut back war/military spending, reduce the army.

7.) Deal with the current K-12 teaching problems. I don't have an answer.

8.) Religion: Would be nice if it was abolished, but for now, it would be nice to ACTUALLY have it separated from state. If a politician makes a decision based on an easily identifiable religious reason, he should be removed.

9.) The internet, movies, games, and other forms of entertainment: Need to remain unregulated / become unregulated.

10.) Stop illegal immigration, and stop giving American benefits to illegal immigrants. If you're an American citizen, you have rights - if not, you have none beyond your basic human rights.

I won't be changing my mind on any of these, but I'm willing to give my reasoning if anyone asks.


I'd like to know the reasoning behind 1 and 6.


The previous poster pretty much nailed it about the drugs - the "war on drugs" is a failure. The government could make a lot of money regulating the drugs, and the only reason many of them are dangerous is because they are cut with things besides what you're paying your dealer for. Sometimes they can be poison, or sometimes they can be other drugs. If they were regulated to safe amounts and the content of them was controlled, they'd be much safer; the government would also make more money, and we'd reduce the strain on prisons greatly by not arresting people for something so little. Besides, drugs are enjoyable, usually much more than alcohol and cigarettes, and people shouldn't be punished for doing something like that. Especially when they're also usually much less dangerous.

As for the military, the US shouldn't be the police of the world. If we go by the Constitution, we should only have a militia. That would make us overly weak, however, so we should focus on defense alone; stop wars in other places, and pull back into the US and focus on keeping ourselves safe. Divert the spending we would save by doing this into the other applicable issues I mentioned (like socializing healthcare and college).
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Kaiyas » Wed May 07, 2008 1:24 am UTC

TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:The previous poster pretty much nailed it about the drugs - the "war on drugs" is a failure. The government could make a lot of money regulating the drugs, and the only reason many of them are dangerous is because they are cut with things besides what you're paying your dealer for. Sometimes they can be poison, or sometimes they can be other drugs. If they were regulated to safe amounts and the content of them was controlled, they'd be much safer; the government would also make more money, and we'd reduce the strain on prisons greatly by not arresting people for something so little. Besides, drugs are enjoyable, usually much more than alcohol and cigarettes, and people shouldn't be punished for doing something like that. Especially when they're also usually much less dangerous.

As for the military, the US shouldn't be the police of the world. If we go by the Constitution, we should only have a militia. That would make us overly weak, however, so we should focus on defense alone; stop wars in other places, and pull back into the US and focus on keeping ourselves safe. Divert the spending we would save by doing this into the other applicable issues I mentioned (like socializing healthcare and college).


Oh, my bad, I thought you were talking about taxing medicinal drugs. (Come to think of it, I'm not sure whether they or don't here in the US.)

As for the military, doesn't that make other countries significantly more dangerous to us? The current state of warfare means you can't simply throw a man out onto the battlefield to fight/fly/fire artillery/insert something else here and expect him to do it well or as safely and effectively.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby TheBeeCeeEmm » Wed May 07, 2008 1:51 am UTC

I'm fairly certain that we'd be perfectly safe (or at least safer than we are - much safer) if we secured our own country instead of other countries like Iraq. I'm also fairly certain that we'd spend less (much less) money. So, we'd be safer, and spend less money. What's not to like?
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Quixotess » Wed May 07, 2008 2:13 am UTC

Okay, my list. I'm afraid this is US-centric, although many of them can apply to other countries as well.

1) The disproportionate number of racial minorities arrested, charged, convicted, and executed for crimes.
2) The lack of protection, justice, and social backing for rape victims. (i.e., rape culture)
3) Gay marriage rights that are still being denied to couples.
4) Nonaffordability and quality of healthcare.
5) Nonaffordability and quality of education.
6) The erosion of a woman's right to abortion and other infringements on her bodily autonomy/right to birth control
7) US policies that make it nearly impossible to immigrate legally combined with harsh penalties for illegals.
8 ) Suspension of the writ of habeaus corpus/use of torture.
9) Around the world: people not getting paid a living wage.
10) The crimes and injustices committed by major corporations.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Wed May 07, 2008 2:27 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:Okay, my list. I'm afraid this is US-centric, although many of them can apply to other countries as well.

1) The disproportionate number of racial minorities arrested, charged, convicted, and executed for crimes.
2) The lack of protection, justice, and social backing for rape victims. (i.e., rape culture)
3) Gay marriage rights that are still being denied to couples.
4) Nonaffordability and quality of healthcare.
5) Nonaffordability and quality of education.
6) The erosion of a woman's right to abortion and other infringements on her bodily autonomy/right to birth control
7) US policies that make it nearly impossible to immigrate legally combined with harsh penalties for illegals.
8 ) Suspension of the writ of habeaus corpus/use of torture.
9) Around the world: people not getting paid a living wage.
10) The crimes and injustices committed by major corporations.



Re: 10. Can you elaborate?

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Quixotess » Wed May 07, 2008 2:51 am UTC

Well, the number one largest corporation (by Fortune 500) is Wal-Mart, you're probably already aware of some things they do. As a refresher, they have a history of discrimination, sexual harassment, general mistreatment of its workers (including denying them the right to unionize), violating labor laws, and let's not forget their mistreatment of the environment either.

Chevron and other big oil companies create ridiculously hazardous environments for its workers. Chevron has also been sued for torture and murder, case pending.

Did you read the Halliburton thread in News&Articles? http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20661 Here it is for your enjoyment.

Just to start you off.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Dazmilar » Wed May 07, 2008 4:15 am UTC

Trying to steer away from the common answers to a question like this.

1. Global Warming. Regardless of whether you believe it is man-made or not, global warming could affect a number of social issues, including water availability, food availability, and increased sea levels.

2. Environmental Racism. At the same time, while we're dealing with environmental concerns we must also avoid environmental racism. Forcing solar and wind power on developing nations while we simultaneously fail to embrace such technologies is shameful. Not just Africa, though. There is a significant problem with any accord to control carbon emissions (Looking at you, Kyoto) that allows E.U. to buy points for its developed nations because of the emissions of its lesser developed nations. We shouldn't give incentives for developed countries to stop other countries from industrializing.

3. The re-emergence of preventable diseases. It's criminal that some countries spread propaganda that their citizens should not be vaccinated for polio, because said vaccinations are instead western plots to sterilize them.

4. Homeopathic charlatans setting up clinics in Africa. There are people with real illnesses that need proven medical cures, not herbal remedies.

5. Abstinence-only sex education. The vilification of the condom needs to stop. Irresponsible in some countries. Morally reprehensible in sub-Saharan Africa.

6. Irresponsible foreign aid. Foreign aid should focus on increasing infrastructure in the country being aided, with the goal of increasing that country's self-sufficiency. Foreign aid without military protection allows for situations where militant groups in the aided countries use the foreign aid against their own people.

7. Ill-thought out post-war country rebuilding. Obviously, we've also a problem in defining when exactly we're in a post-war situation, but something like the Marshall plan should be the standard of post-war country rebuilding. Two instances of countries in the 20th century where the post-war was botched were post-WW1 Germany and late 80s Afghanistan. You'd think we'd learn.

8. The destruction of urban industrial centers. You ship large numbers of quality jobs overseas to exploit cheap foreign labor, attempt to fill the void with poor service-economy jobs, and wonder at the fall of the American city. Really?

9. Education reform. Both at the university level and primary and secondary levels. We also need to realize that if you assume a college education should be possible for all people, that you have to re-think the mentality of the past two decades that college degree = better job.

10. Mutilation of children. Specifically the female circumcision.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 07, 2008 5:00 am UTC

The only real issue of social justice: the treatment of humans as members of a group, instead of individuals, with the rights and responsibilities that implies. Everything can either be reduced to that, or is injustice cloaked in the guise of justice.

furthur wrote:If all the people living in poverty (in every country) were given the same access to healthcare, sanitation, education, and all the other things we take for granted, I believe the human race as a whole would benefit from the increase in potential.
Who is going to 'give' it to them, and where will they get it?
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby akashra » Wed May 07, 2008 6:02 am UTC

Iv wrote:- Everybody deserves education

I have to say, as much as this is heard, I actually disagree with it.
As much as I would *like* to see that everyone had an education available to them, it's not a right - it's a privilege.

1. People being treated equally and having the same rights regardless of sexual orientation, gender or racial background - that's an issue.
People being treated equally based on religion? Not an equality issue.

There's distinct contrast in the two: The first isn't a choice. The latter is a choice.

2. Character judging based on sexual preference, promiscuity, or attitudes.
Sorry people, but just because some people are more or less open to things surrounding sex differ from yours does not justify action either way. This includes, but is not limited to prostitution, promiscuity, partner choices, methods and education.
2a. That Prostitutes are treated as criminals, rather than pimps or Johns.

3. Religious child abuse. Sorry people, but brainwashing people treated by the law otherwise as a minor is child abuse, period. Religion and other general untruths should be banned from all under the age of suffrage.

4. The "war on drugs". This isn't a war on drugs. It's a war on societies and societal ideals.

5. Laws where the only victim is the person who acted. See 2a, 4.

6. The death penalty. Oh, don't get me started here.

7. Political adjendas and laws mixing, despite what's right. This includes appointing conservative judges or judges with certain religious ideals.

8. The 'democratic' system. Again, don't start me in this thread. Basically, it has a *long* way to go.

9. Basic Human Decency. Causes more problems than it solves.

10. Liberty. Or the lack of.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Malice » Wed May 07, 2008 10:30 am UTC

TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:I'm fairly certain that we'd be perfectly safe (or at least safer than we are - much safer) if we secured our own country instead of other countries like Iraq. I'm also fairly certain that we'd spend less (much less) money. So, we'd be safer, and spend less money. What's not to like?


Like it or not, we do need things other than defense. No defense is perfect, and we might someday again be in a situation like we were after 9/11. Ie., we'd been hit, the people who did it fled to a country which gave them sanctuary (Afghanistan), it was necessary to go kick some ass.

In addition, the best defense is a good offense. The US gets along reasonably okay in the world because it balances dickish imperialism (bad) with international peacekeeping (good!). What breeds terrorism and war? Unrest! What can fix unrest? A powerful economic and military presence, kicking out dictators, removing nuclear threats, solving food distribution issues. It's like global gentrification--if we clean up our neighborhood, we won't get mugged as often. And that takes a strong military.

Note: it takes a well-guided military. It takes a government which won't send that military off with poor resources and support to a country that isn't bothering us for the purpose of securing oil or getting revenge or anything which isn't keeping peace and hurting the bad guys. This part is important.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby hauge » Wed May 07, 2008 12:32 pm UTC

As most posters here seem to be fairly liberal, atheist american citizens (neither of which applies to me), I'll try to show a slightly different perspective.

Military: This is, I admit, a very optimistic vision, but to me it seems that the reason for having powerful armed forces is that countries do not trust each other. I do not really see any great reason, at the present, for fearing old fashioned war between countries, at least in the West. In Norway, my native country, we have a magnificent system of unmanned small cabins in the mountains where there are small stores of food, and sleeping space, that hikers can use. They are expected to pay when they leave, but there is absolutely no control. Still, the systems works, with very little loss, because everyone thinks it's a good idea for it too work. And it is all based on trust. Could countries do something similar? Agree that warfare seems not to be all that great? It could be possible, at least to some extent, if powers such as the US could reduce their armed forces a little, and get others to follow. Of course, terrorism is still a threat, but that is better dealt with otherwise anyways. (Besides, I would rather have ten more 9/11's than another Iraq.)

Religion: I agree with much that has been said in this forum about forcing religion on people, but that would also have to include forcing nonreligion on people. As long as there is no reason to agree that there is or is not a God, or that some belief is or is not fairly correct, I find it disrespectful to speak of religion the way it is spoken of here - as something that is proven and agreed upon to be the worst of all lies. (Might have exaggerated there - sorry, but it is close to true.)

Abortion: Not trying to start a holy war, but it is not only about women's rights. There's a child in there somewhere. As for a practical solution, I lean towards a combination of legal abortions and some way to (respectfully) discourage them. By the way, I completely agree that condoms are magnificent, and that the pope and a couple of other leaders should revise their opinions.

Education: Is, of course, the key to a happy life, (or something...) but it requires a society that works well in a couple of other ways first. In developed countries it should be a very high priority, other places it might not be first on the list, but if a society wants true and great development, it is necessary.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Pandercolour » Wed May 07, 2008 1:42 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:Okay, my list. I'm afraid this is US-centric, although many of them can apply to other countries as well.

1) The disproportionate number of racial minorities arrested, charged, convicted, and executed for crimes.
2) The lack of protection, justice, and social backing for rape victims. (i.e., rape culture)
3) Gay marriage rights that are still being denied to couples.
4) Nonaffordability and quality of healthcare.
5) Nonaffordability and quality of education.
6) The erosion of a woman's right to abortion and other infringements on her bodily autonomy/right to birth control
7) US policies that make it nearly impossible to immigrate legally combined with harsh penalties for illegals.
8 ) Suspension of the writ of habeaus corpus/use of torture.
9) Around the world: people not getting paid a living wage.
10) The crimes and injustices committed by major corporations.


Since much of what I want to say echoes Quixotess, I'll quote him/her.

However, I think schools should have a more... female-centred education system, where girls are encouraged more than boys to succeed.

In addition to what Quixotess said for his/her second choice, I think the assumption of innocence is detrimental to justice, at least in cases of rape, where it is difficult to prove. Instead, there should be an automatic assumption of guilt upon accusation.

I think the focus of the justice system should be changed to restorative (rehabilitation and restitution) rather than retributive. Educating released convicts, and giving them opportunities to re-enter society (like, say, a better job than armed robbery) are paramount.

Other than that, I agree 100% with Quixotess.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 07, 2008 2:00 pm UTC

Pandercolour wrote:However, I think schools should have a more... female-centred education system, where girls are encouraged more than boys to succeed.
Unequal encouragement based on sex?

In either event, have you looked at lower-level schooling recently (in the US, at least)? It's slightly slanted in favor of girls (the boy "crisis" is a myth, but the facts that provoked the histrionics are still there).
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby e946 » Wed May 07, 2008 2:53 pm UTC

Pandercolour wrote:In addition to what Quixotess said for his/her second choice, I think the assumption of innocence is detrimental to justice, at least in cases of rape, where it is difficult to prove. Instead, there should be an automatic assumption of guilt upon accusation.


I hope you're tryig to be sarcastic, because if there ever was an incorrect opinion in the world, this is it. I'm all for justice in cases like this but do you have any idea what kind of power this gives women over even the most innocent of people?

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Pandercolour » Wed May 07, 2008 3:17 pm UTC

e946 wrote:
Pandercolour wrote:In addition to what Quixotess said for his/her second choice, I think the assumption of innocence is detrimental to justice, at least in cases of rape, where it is difficult to prove. Instead, there should be an automatic assumption of guilt upon accusation.


I hope you're tryig to be sarcastic, because if there ever was an incorrect opinion in the world, this is it. I'm all for justice in cases like this but do you have any idea what kind of power this gives women over even the most innocent of people?

Um, none? I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest, here. Are you saying women are just going to toss around accusations like candy? I must have more faith in women than you do, because I really don't think anyone would just start some bullshit like that.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Gunfingers » Wed May 07, 2008 3:27 pm UTC

You don't think there are women out there who will hook up with someone at a party and think the next morning "I really wish i hadn't done that. You know what...he raped me!"

Because that already happens. It happened to a guy i used to work with, and i know a girl who had sex with two guys and then claimed they raped her (she admitted to lying and the whole thing got dropped).

You can have all the faith in women that you want, but if you don't think that there are schmucks out there then you're just naive.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby e946 » Wed May 07, 2008 3:32 pm UTC

Pandercolour wrote:Um, none? I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest, here. Are you saying women are just going to toss around accusations like candy? I must have more faith in women than you do, because I really don't think anyone would just start some bullshit like that.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/09 ... rape_.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22304120/
http://www.examiner.com/a-1271120~Lawye ... back_.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

I'm sorry, what were you saying? The mountain of evidence over here kind of muffled your voice.

Another-post-without-double-posting: to be clear, I understand where you're coming from; often times people get off on rape charges just because it's hard to prove, and in general too much rape goes unpunished, but abolishing due process is absolutely not the way to go about solving it.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Quixotess » Wed May 07, 2008 4:27 pm UTC

Just stating for the record that I don't agree with Pandercolour--as much as we live in a rape culture, switching to "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't word for me.

I've also heard the equally horrible suggestion that when men go to trial for rape and are found not guilty, the woman who charged them should be prosecuted. I don't know, terrible ideas on both sides. I really think social change is the only thing that will solve this problem.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Pandercolour » Wed May 07, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:I've also heard the equally horrible suggestion that when men go to trial for rape and are found not guilty, the woman who charged them should be prosecuted. I don't know, terrible ideas on both sides. I really think social change is the only thing that will solve this problem.

Yeah. Social change. Like it's that simple or easy. Fine, yeah, I'll agree that we need to change the way we think of these of things. But. In the meantime, we'll do things to make sure people are treated fairly and with respect.

If any of you are worried about women lying about that, well, don't be friends with people who will lie to get you in trouble. THERE is something simple and easy.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Gunfingers » Wed May 07, 2008 4:53 pm UTC

Yes, i'll get right on magically knowing whether my friends might some day in the future under some unknown circumstance screw me over.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Quixotess » Wed May 07, 2008 5:06 pm UTC

Of course social change won't be easy. That's why this is in my friggin top ten.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Wed May 07, 2008 5:33 pm UTC

hauge wrote:In Norway, my native country, we have a magnificent system of unmanned small cabins in the mountains where there are small stores of food, and sleeping space, that hikers can use. They are expected to pay when they leave, but there is absolutely no control. Still, the systems works, with very little loss, because everyone thinks it's a good idea for it too work. And it is all based on trust. Could countries do something similar?

No, the risk is too great. With the cabins, only some money is at stake and it's very easy for everyone to see the good of the system since all the people using it are fairly similar in outlook.

hauge wrote:Of course, terrorism is still a threat, but that is better dealt with otherwise anyways. (Besides, I would rather have ten more 9/11's than another Iraq.)

Well, here's to hoping you never get put into a position of civic responsibility then, eh?

hauge wrote:Religion: I agree with much that has been said in this forum about forcing religion on people, but that would also have to include forcing nonreligion on people.

How exactly are people having non-religion forced on them? (lack of special privelages or the ability to persecute others does not constitute persecution)

hauge wrote:Abortion: Not trying to start a holy war, but it is not only about women's rights. There's a child in there somewhere.

The question is more about what defines a person. A fetus simply isn't a person yet, so it's "rights" are trumped by the rights of the mother to do as she damn well pleases with her body.


hauge wrote:As for a practical solution, I lean towards a combination of legal abortions and some way to (respectfully) discourage them. By the way, I completely agree that condoms are magnificent, and that the pope and a couple of other leaders should revise their opinions.

Good on you :wink:



Pandercolour wrote:I think the assumption of innocence is detrimental to justice, at least in cases of rape, where it is difficult to prove. Instead, there should be an automatic assumption of guilt upon accusation.

That's immoral, unconstitutional, disgusting, and downright stupid.

"It's ok if person X has this power over you, because they will only use it when they should." Honestly? Have you ever read history? Psychology? The news?

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 07, 2008 7:59 pm UTC

Pandercolour wrote:Um, none? I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest, here. Are you saying women are just going to toss around accusations like candy? I must have more faith in women than you do, because I really don't think anyone would just start some bullshit like that.
Sounds like some education about the reality of rapes is in order?

SabreKGB wrote:The question is more about what defines a person. A fetus simply isn't a person yet, so it's "rights" are trumped by the rights of the mother to do as she damn well pleases with her body.
Ah, so your moral judgment is simply right. Well, that controversy is solved!
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby TheBeeCeeEmm » Wed May 07, 2008 9:16 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:I'm fairly certain that we'd be perfectly safe (or at least safer than we are - much safer) if we secured our own country instead of other countries like Iraq. I'm also fairly certain that we'd spend less (much less) money. So, we'd be safer, and spend less money. What's not to like?


In addition, the best defense is a good offense. The US gets along reasonably okay in the world because it balances dickish imperialism (bad) with international peacekeeping (good!). What breeds terrorism and war? Unrest! What can fix unrest? A powerful economic and military presence, kicking out dictators, removing nuclear threats, solving food distribution issues. It's like global gentrification--if we clean up our neighborhood, we won't get mugged as often. And that takes a strong military.


"Gets along reasonably well"??? Have you HEARD what the rest of the world thinks of us? There is no balance.

And what breeds unrest? Kicking out dictators, for one. If we (try to) clean up our neighborhood, in the real world, we won't get mugged as often, but we'll get in knife fights with drug dealers and gunfights with gang members. And we'd get mugged even less if we just stayed in our house, kept the doors locked, and minded our own business - without any of those other skirmishes, too.
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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Wed May 07, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Ah, so your moral judgment is simply right. Well, that controversy is solved!

I love it when a person has a moment of crystal clarity and the answer to a difficult problem finally dawns on them. :D
TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:
Malice wrote:
TheBeeCeeEmm wrote:I'm fairly certain that we'd be perfectly safe (or at least safer than we are - much safer) if we secured our own country instead of other countries like Iraq. I'm also fairly certain that we'd spend less (much less) money. So, we'd be safer, and spend less money. What's not to like?


In addition, the best defense is a good offense. The US gets along reasonably okay in the world because it balances dickish imperialism (bad) with international peacekeeping (good!). What breeds terrorism and war? Unrest! What can fix unrest? A powerful economic and military presence, kicking out dictators, removing nuclear threats, solving food distribution issues. It's like global gentrification--if we clean up our neighborhood, we won't get mugged as often. And that takes a strong military.


"Gets along reasonably well"??? Have you HEARD what the rest of the world thinks of us? There is no balance.

And what breeds unrest? Kicking out dictators, for one. If we (try to) clean up our neighborhood, in the real world, we won't get mugged as often, but we'll get in knife fights with drug dealers and gunfights with gang members. And we'd get mugged even less if we just stayed in our house, kept the doors locked, and minded our own business - without any of those other skirmishes, too.

Well, actually, yes...we do get along reasonably well. What the world "thinks" hasn't really translated into actions, has it? We haven't been invaded, sanctioned in any meaningful way, or had direct action of any kind taken against us.

And when you're cleaning up the neighborhood: that's why it pays to have the best gun, the itchiest trigger finger, the most skill, and the ruthlessness to follow through with the task without any half measures...like kneecapping. Then, not only will you not get mugged, but all the regular citizens will know not to fuck with you either. Just in your little situation, of course.

You do realize that we tried isolationism, right? It doesn't work. Except for switzerland.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Grave » Wed May 07, 2008 10:36 pm UTC

SabreKGB wrote:Well, actually, yes...we do get along reasonably well. What the world "thinks" hasn't really translated into actions, has it? We haven't been invaded, sanctioned in any meaningful way, or had direct action of any kind taken against us.


We haven't been invaded because 1) neither Mexico nor Canada is a threat, and 2) any country in any position to pose a threat is on the wrong side of the ocean. Amphibious invasions are hard.

SabreKGB wrote:And when you're cleaning up the neighborhood: that's why it pays to have the best gun, the itchiest trigger finger, the most skill, and the ruthlessness to follow through with the task without any half measures...like kneecapping. Then, not only will you not get mugged, but all the regular citizens will know not to fuck with you either. Just in your little situation, of course.

You do realize that we tried isolationism, right? It doesn't work. Except for switzerland.


The problem with your analogy is that we aren't cleaning up our own neighborhood. We're cleaning up someone else's, when we really don't have any right to. Now, if Mexico, for example, had a tyrannical dictator, we might be justified in going in to clean up, because that would actually pose a threat to US territorial interests.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Wed May 07, 2008 10:48 pm UTC

Grave wrote:
SabreKGB wrote:Well, actually, yes...we do get along reasonably well. What the world "thinks" hasn't really translated into actions, has it? We haven't been invaded, sanctioned in any meaningful way, or had direct action of any kind taken against us.


We haven't been invaded because 1) neither Mexico nor Canada is a threat, and 2) any country in any position to pose a threat is on the wrong side of the ocean. Amphibious invasions are hard.

SabreKGB wrote:And when you're cleaning up the neighborhood: that's why it pays to have the best gun, the itchiest trigger finger, the most skill, and the ruthlessness to follow through with the task without any half measures...like kneecapping. Then, not only will you not get mugged, but all the regular citizens will know not to fuck with you either. Just in your little situation, of course.

You do realize that we tried isolationism, right? It doesn't work. Except for switzerland.


The problem with your analogy is that we aren't cleaning up our own neighborhood. We're cleaning up someone else's, when we really don't have any right to. Now, if Mexico, for example, had a tyrannical dictator, we might be justified in going in to clean up, because that would actually pose a threat to US territorial interests.


My point, though, was that Malice was right when he said we get along reasonably well.

And, the bigger you are, the larger your neighborhood is. I think we're at the size that the entire planet is our neighborhood. US economic interests are global, after all.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby Grave » Thu May 08, 2008 12:44 am UTC

SabreKGB wrote:My point, though, was that Malice was right when he said we get along reasonably well.


On a micro level, certainly - an average American will still get along reasonably well with anyone else, but I'm not sure that's true on a larger scale. A lot of the Europeans I've talked to do not approve of the US government's policies, by which standard we could be said not to 'get along.'

SabreKGB wrote:And, the bigger you are, the larger your neighborhood is. I think we're at the size that the entire planet is our neighborhood. US economic interests are global, after all.


That depends on your perspective - some (many?) Americans would certainly think of the world as 'our' neighborhood, but how much of the rest of the world thinks of itself as part of America's neighborhood?
And while US economic interests might be global, I don't think that necessarily extends to our right to intervene where we choose. I personally view the economy and the government as separate entities, so I don't believe that the government should, say, institute quotas for T-shirt imports to "protect" American textile industries (which we have). Your views may differ.

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Re: Top 10 social justice issues of our time

Postby SabreKGB » Thu May 08, 2008 1:21 am UTC

Grave wrote:
SabreKGB wrote:My point, though, was that Malice was right when he said we get along reasonably well.


On a micro level, certainly - an average American will still get along reasonably well with anyone else, but I'm not sure that's true on a larger scale. A lot of the Europeans I've talked to do not approve of the US government's policies, by which standard we could be said not to 'get along.'

SabreKGB wrote:And, the bigger you are, the larger your neighborhood is. I think we're at the size that the entire planet is our neighborhood. US economic interests are global, after all.


That depends on your perspective - some (many?) Americans would certainly think of the world as 'our' neighborhood, but how much of the rest of the world thinks of itself as part of America's neighborhood?
And while US economic interests might be global, I don't think that necessarily extends to our right to intervene where we choose. I personally view the economy and the government as separate entities, so I don't believe that the government should, say, institute quotas for T-shirt imports to "protect" American textile industries (which we have). Your views may differ.


No, i'm pretty free market and trade protectionism only ends up hurting in the long run. Govt interference always reduces efficiency, so it should only happen when it really needs to.

As for Europe not approving of US policies: How are we not getting along fairly well? Ok, they disagree...but are they taking any action about it or is it just grumbling?


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