eating meat

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are you vegetarian?

yes
187
18%
no
868
82%
 
Total votes: 1055

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existential_elevator
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Re: eating meat

Postby existential_elevator » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:31 am UTC

I approve your initiative, Shakleton, that's a great idea!

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Re: eating meat

Postby crowey » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:56 pm UTC

Like Shackleton I'm eating less meat now because of climate change but also because of the massive amounts of water and food resources it takes to generate meat. According to this it takes 3700 litres of water to produce 1 kilogram of beef. That's a hell of a lot of water.

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Re: eating meat

Postby pollywog » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:39 am UTC

I recently lost my iron pills, so I've been eating meat until I buy some more again. Once a week I'll have a lamb and egg sandwich, or something, but it feels wrong. Like, really wrong. Some stuff happened in my life, and I had a few experiences, and all of a sudden I care about stuff like this.

I'm not a vegetarian for health reasons (if i cared about my health I'd stop smoking and drinking, wear a seat belt and drive under he speed limit, and exercise more), or for environmental reasons (I'll be dead long before anything like that has a great impact on my life), so i really can't justify it. At first, it was about not liking meat, and when I stopped eating meat, what taste I had for it went away, and now I can't stand the taste of a lot of meats, especially pork, mutton and beef. So the only reasons I have for not eating meat are "I don't like it" and "It just feels wrong". Seeing as when i don't eat meat or iron pills, and my iron levels drop, I feel like shit, it doesn't really seem worth it.
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Re: eating meat

Postby All My Mushrooms » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:22 pm UTC

crowey wrote:Like Shackleton I'm eating less meat now because of climate change but also because of the massive amounts of water and food resources it takes to generate meat. According to this it takes 3700 litres of water to produce 1 kilogram of beef. That's a hell of a lot of water.


Water? Who cares if it uses that much water? 71% of the Earth's surface is covered in the stuff!

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Re: eating meat

Postby seladore » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:46 pm UTC

In salt water. Which is undrinkable. Fresh water is a whole other story...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conservation

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Re: eating meat

Postby All My Mushrooms » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:02 pm UTC

That article is just a list of ways of how we can conserve water, not a list of reasons why we should conserve water.

I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how a 1st world country with plenty of rainfall (Plus the money and technical ability to construct and run large-scale desalination plants) is ever going to run out of fresh water.

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Re: eating meat

Postby crowey » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

try this

Water isn't nearly as abundant as you'd think.

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Re: eating meat

Postby seladore » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:52 pm UTC

From the BBC, for example:

If the Chinese wanted to match per capita consumption of beef in the USA [...] they would have to import an extra 340m tonnes of grain annually.

That amount equals the entire US grain harvest in any given year.

And in a water-scarce world, it would be very difficult to increase grain yields.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:14 pm UTC

(Does this thread count as dead, or is it merely dormant? Apologies if it's dead.)

Shakleton, are you still doing "No-meat Mondays"? That's such a great idea - I'd join you if it wasn't for the fact that I can't stand meat and haven't eaten it since I was 9...

My faith in vegetarians as a species has been shaken. In searching for recipes I found veggieboards.com and accidentally got into a debate (I am terrible at debating). They actually said "meat is murder". They actually said it! I didn't think anyone had said that since the 70's. Then they accused me of being "speciesist"! How on earth do you counter that??? *curls up in foetal position gibbering* I need help...

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Re: eating meat

Postby Varsil » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:28 pm UTC

My take on this is:

I've been on a vegetarian diet at times, when I've been at camps where they've served vegetarian food exclusively.

It makes me rather sick rather fast. Iron supplements help there, but they don't entirely defray it. And the food was just fine for the others eating--they were doing fine, while I was not.

Accordingly, whatever your personal choices may be, it's important to realize that those choices aren't going to work for everyone. If you're a vegetarian and that works for you, great. If you're telling me to stop eating, you're telling me to suffer illness (and I'm not sure how serious it gets--I've never gone more than a week and a half without meat, by which time I've been sufficiently bad that friends snuck me out of one of the aforementioned summer camps to surreptitiously acquire steak because they were worried about me). If meat was banned tomorrow, I'd be out late at nights, hunting people's pets, setting snares for squirrels, and buying black market meat.

So, yeah. I get tired of evangelical vegetarians. If they do ban meat, I'm coming for the pets of the evangelical vegetarians first.

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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:15 pm UTC

I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism. I'm probably the type of person who makes wittyname curl up gibbering in the foetal position. I don't proselytize, but when the subject of animal rights comes up I'm very outspoken about it.
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Re: eating meat

Postby hero imprisoned » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:23 pm UTC

natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism. I'm probably the type of person who makes wittyname curl up gibbering in the foetal position. I don't proselytize, but when the subject of animal rights comes up I'm very outspoken about it.


I'm vegan as well, and pretty outspoken about animal lib whenever it gets brought up. I don't really care enough to broach the subject on my own, but I don't shy away from it, either. Of course, almost all of my close friends are vegan, so it's not really something I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. I will say that I have been talking about these issues less and less lately.

I'm a vegan mostly in response to industrial agriculture's takeover of entire species as food. This means I take a lot less issue with people who subvert industrialized food production regardless of their diet than I do with people who eat fast food. I care a whole lot less about someone who hunts for food when necessary than someone who thinks meat grows on grocery store shelves.

To me, the problem isn't meat,it's animals as consumer products.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:31 pm UTC

hero imprisoned wrote:I'm a vegan mostly in response to industrial agriculture's takeover of entire species as food. This means I take a lot less issue with people who subvert industrialized food production regardless of their diet than I do with people who eat fast food. I care a whole lot less about someone who hunts for food when necessary than someone who thinks meat grows on grocery store shelves.


aha! *agrees* (Only am vegetarian, not vegan).

I explain stuff badly. What I find bizarre is the idea that eating any meat, ever, in any situation is murder. Surely if you're living in the woods and you go out and hunt a wild boar, kill it and eat it, that's nature, not murder.

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Re: eating meat

Postby hero imprisoned » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

Wittyname wrote:
hero imprisoned wrote:I'm a vegan mostly in response to industrial agriculture's takeover of entire species as food. This means I take a lot less issue with people who subvert industrialized food production regardless of their diet than I do with people who eat fast food. I care a whole lot less about someone who hunts for food when necessary than someone who thinks meat grows on grocery store shelves.


aha! *agrees* (Only am vegetarian, not vegan).

I explain stuff badly. What I find bizarre is the idea that eating any meat, ever, in any situation is murder. Surely if you're living in the woods and you go out and hunt a wild boar, kill it and eat it, that's nature, not murder.


The terms of "nature" and "murder" aren't opposed. I don't see anything wrong with using the "meat is murder" rhetoric to shock people into questioning their actions, but I think sloganeering is fucking stupid.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:51 pm UTC

The terms of "nature" and "murder" aren't opposed.


So is murder natural then? I suppose it's something all humans do... But we never say that animals murder one another...*muses*

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Re: eating meat

Postby Quixotess » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:26 am UTC

I think murder implies a that someone has acted immorally, and we don't consider animals capable of comprehending that. Like we don't consider them illiterate either.
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Re: eating meat

Postby Thanatos » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:09 am UTC

Ardent meat eater here. I'm going to wax philosophic for a moment so please forgive me.

For all those who say meat is murder, can I assume in your ideal world there would not be any animals raised and slaughtered for the specific purpose of food supply? If that is so, who are you to assume you know an animal would rather never be born, never exist, then to live if even for but for a relative moment in time? At lease we murderers give the poor things a chance to experience life. Why is it that you only look at the Death? There is a quote by someone somewhere that its not how you die, but how you life. YOU are going to die someday and there is nothing you can do about it. Would you rather never have existed? If anyone is making such a lifestyle choices as vegan because of some supposed higher morals, I contend that you morals are all kinds of screwed up.
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Re: eating meat

Postby ian » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:50 am UTC

Thanatos wrote:Ardent meat eater here. I'm going to wax philosophic for a moment so please forgive me.

For all those who say meat is murder, can I assume in your ideal world there would not be any animals raised and slaughtered for the specific purpose of food supply? If that is so, who are you to assume you know an animal would rather never be born, never exist, then to live if even for but for a relative moment in time? At lease we murderers give the poor things a chance to experience life. Why is it that you only look at the Death? There is a quote by someone somewhere that its not how you die, but how you life. YOU are going to die someday and there is nothing you can do about it. Would you rather never have existed? If anyone is making such a lifestyle choices as vegan because of some supposed higher morals, I contend that you morals are all kinds of screwed up.


This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Everybody should constantly be having children because sure we won't be able to offer them any decent quality of life and the world will quickly become (more) vastly overpopulated but at least they will live! Also never get your animals neutuerd.

When you start invoking the feelings of non-existing animals for your argument you've kinda defeated yourself.

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Re: eating meat

Postby existential_elevator » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:59 am UTC

True.

You've kind of independently reached an argument supporting the repugnant conclusion. Which is interesting, if not the most sensible thing.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:25 am UTC

For animals that are jaw-droppingly stupid, like sheep, what is the policy on humane killing? They wouldn't stay alive without human intervention- hell, they still drown themselves attempting to drink running water.

I see no problem with eating any dead animal, as long as it was humanely killed. I buy from local sources- as I've said before- and they live lives in the open before being humanely slaughtered. I (again) do have a physical reason why I need to eat meat, so I figure that at least in my case, the dominant predator gene survived. I don't think it's any more inappropriate for me to eat dead cow than it is for my dog or my cats, or for any other carnivore.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Thanatos » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:06 am UTC

I agree that potential life can't be measured or used in any argument involving morality. I'm mostly thinking aloud here and there is supposed to be a certain amount of sarcasm in my previous post. I don't particular agree with your analogy though ian. Is there a demand for more babies? No. Only for a specific number of babies to make up for those who die and to increase when demand calls for it. I would argue we are a bit overpopulated but that's besides the point.

All I really look at is simple supply and demand. There is a demand for a certain number of animals to be raised for slaughter every year. They are raised, humanely killed( one can hope), and devoured by me. I don't see any moral implications in what happens. They have a set lifespan and lifestyle from birth. I intended to show those who spout meat is murder that it works both ways yet that just two sides of the same coin that's inherently wrong in the first place.

I hope I'm getting my point across a little better. If not we'll figure it out eventually. This post doesn't seem to be that cohesive to me but what the hell. maybe someone will make sense of it.
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Re: eating meat

Postby crazyjimbo » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:52 am UTC

natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism. I'm probably the type of person who makes wittyname curl up gibbering in the foetal position. I don't proselytize, but when the subject of animal rights comes up I'm very outspoken about it.


I appreciate that there are way more arguments than just speciesism, but only focusing on that, isn't it a bit hypocritical? We drink human milk and some cultures eat the placenta, which is about as close as we'll get to having edible eggs, so what's the problem with drinking cows milk and chicken eggs? Surely actively deciding not to eat them is being speciesist.

I don't really disagree with you, I'm just curious how you resolve that in your head.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:50 pm UTC

natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism.


On the speciesism thing - why is speciesism a bad thing? I can see nothing wrong with putting one's own species before any others. It's something all organisms do, including plants.

If, hypothetically, a car was going over a cliff and you only had time to pick up one(and you never met either before), would you pick up a human baby or a puppy? I suspect you would choose the baby, but that's being speciesist, if the only reason you choose the baby over the puppy is because it's human. Or if you choose the puppy, how would you justify that?

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Re: eating meat

Postby seladore » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:57 pm UTC

Wittyname wrote:
natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism.


On the speciesism thing - why is speciesism a bad thing? I can see nothing wrong with putting one's own species before any others. It's something all organisms do, including plants.


The fact that other organisms do it doesn't make it automatically right. Other species engage in lots of behaviours that you would (no doubt) find morally reprehensible, for example, so this isn't the reason you find it acceptable.

It is a bad thing because it can lead to a staggering lack of compassion when dealing with beings classed as 'non-human'. We treat animals in ways that would be regarded as torture if humans were involved, for example, and the abortion of a human blastocyst causes some people to react more strongly than they would to the vivisection of an adult ape.

Wittyname wrote:If, hypothetically, a car was going over a cliff and you only had time to pick up one(and you never met either before), would you pick up a human baby or a puppy? I suspect you would choose the baby, but that's being speciesist, if the only reason you choose the baby over the puppy is because it's human. Or if you choose the puppy, how would you justify that?


I think the point of 'speciest' arguments is that there is no reason to automatically choose the baby, on the basis of 'because it's human'.
I am vegetarian and strongly believe that speciesism is prevalent and should be overcome where possible, but I would pick to save the baby. There would be a much greater amount of suffering in the world if the baby died, due to our increased emotional attachments to members of our own species.
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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:03 pm UTC

crazyjimbo wrote:
natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism. I'm probably the type of person who makes wittyname curl up gibbering in the foetal position. I don't proselytize, but when the subject of animal rights comes up I'm very outspoken about it.


I appreciate that there are way more arguments than just speciesism, but only focusing on that, isn't it a bit hypocritical? We drink human milk and some cultures eat the placenta, which is about as close as we'll get to having edible eggs, so what's the problem with drinking cows milk and chicken eggs? Surely actively deciding not to eat them is being speciesist.

I don't really disagree with you, I'm just curious how you resolve that in your head.


We don't imprison human mothers, force semen into them, and then steal their milk once they start lactating. In one case, the supplier of the milk is voluntary. In the other, the supplier of the milk is not.

Thanatos wrote:If that is so, who are you to assume you know an animal would rather never be born, never exist, then to live if even for but for a relative moment in time? At lease we murderers give the poor things a chance to experience life. Why is it that you only look at the Death?


The difference between me and animals we raise for slaughter is that I'm living my life not as an abused slave.

I'm not saying anyone has the right to decide for someone else whether their life is worth living -- I am saying it's completely immoral purposely breeding new lives for the explicit purpose of imprisoning, abusing, and eventually killing them.

I'm not only looking at death. I personally wouldn't go out and hunt down an animal to eat*, but if someone is out there hunting wild animals, there's an enormous difference between that and an industry centred around turning lives into products.

*in my current situation. If I were, say, stuck on a desert island or otherwise living somewhere with absolutely no access to other sources of food and it was necessary for survival, then I might. But such hypothetical situations don't justify contributing to the cruelty of the animal industry when there is absolutely no need to. Veganism is about eliminating animal products from live insofar as it is practical and possible, so if I were in a situation where it was not practical and possible to do so and still live, I wouldn't. I doubt that such a situation would occur in the context of factory farming and all, though.

Wittyname wrote:
natraj wrote:I'm a vegan and an animal liberationist. I think meat is murder and I'm very much against speciesism.


On the speciesism thing - why is speciesism a bad thing? I can see nothing wrong with putting one's own species before any others. It's something all organisms do, including plants.

If, hypothetically, a car was going over a cliff and you only had time to pick up one(and you never met either before), would you pick up a human baby or a puppy? I suspect you would choose the baby, but that's being speciesist, if the only reason you choose the baby over the puppy is because it's human. Or if you choose the puppy, how would you justify that?


I don't actually know which I'd choose. I'd likely choose the baby, yes, because it is human and so am I. But that's not the type of thing generally being referred to with the term 'speciesism'. As you said, all organisms want the protection of their own species. The difference between us and other organisms is the systematic, widespread way we abuse and oppress species that aren't our own. That's not something necessary for survival.
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Re: eating meat

Postby 3fj » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:13 pm UTC

natraj wrote:That's not something necessary for survival.

It isn't? How would you sustain the obscene amount of life on this planet using just plants?
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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:16 pm UTC

3fj wrote:
natraj wrote:That's not something necessary for survival.

It isn't? How would you sustain the obscene amount of life on this planet using just plants?


... very, very easily? The change couldn't happen overnight by any stretch, but it takes far less land and resources to grow food for a vegetarian diet than for a meat diet. Not to mention the tax on the environment being much lower.

ETA: Note, also, that I'm speaking from a predominantly industrialized-nation-centric POV with this assertion (although I was still vegan while living in the middle of the jungle in India, and so the ability to live without exploiting animals the way we do in America is by no means solely a Western-privileged ability.)

But eating meat the way it happens in the U.S. isn't just unnecessary for survival, it's actively bad for it. The industry the way it is is not very sustainable at all, in terms of its environmental toll. Veg*nism has a much lower ecological footprint than an average US omnivore diet.
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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:42 pm UTC

natraj wrote:
3fj wrote:
natraj wrote:That's not something necessary for survival.

It isn't? How would you sustain the obscene amount of life on this planet using just plants?


... very, very easily? The change couldn't happen overnight by any stretch, but it takes far less land and resources to grow food for a vegetarian diet than for a meat diet. Not to mention the tax on the environment being much lower.


I'd agree with natraj on this one, on the most part.
Although much of the land on the earth can't be used for arable farming but can be used for grazing. Take mountain villages where there's not enough prime arable land to provide the various protein sources needed for a healthy vegan diet, but a bunch of goats can be sent up the mountain to graze on land that's unusable for anything else and on plants that humans can't eat - wham bam instant protein. Unless you're proposing to pool all the food in the world (which would take a lot of resources for transport etc), it's far more efficient for a mountain village to not live a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle.
But I don't think any of us live in mountain villages. I'm just pointing out that a vegetarian diet is not always more efficient than a meat diet.

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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:58 pm UTC

Wittyname wrote:I'd agree with natraj on this one, on the most part.
Although much of the land on the earth can't be used for arable farming but can be used for grazing. Take mountain villages where there's not enough prime arable land to provide the various protein sources needed for a healthy vegan diet, but a bunch of goats can be sent up the mountain to graze on land that's unusable for anything else and on plants that humans can't eat - wham bam instant protein. Unless you're proposing to pool all the food in the world (which would take a lot of resources for transport etc), it's far more efficient for a mountain village to not live a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle.
But I don't think any of us live in mountain villages. I'm just pointing out that a vegetarian diet is not always more efficient than a meat diet.


Yeah, that's why I went back and clarified after my initial post, since I'd been posting from the point of view of someone living in the US in terms of diet/sustainability/impact over here, and then I had to amend cuz it certainly isn't true everywhere. But for the most of us here on these forums, I think, those situations wouldn't apply so much.

(Although, I did used to live in a mountain village :P In the Nilgiris district in India -- very jungle-ful mountains. Even there, vegetarian diets were overwhelmingly more common, and not impractical.)

(Also, though, I think that most of my reasons for being vegan would be negated, were I in one of those hypothetical situations omnivores like to throw at me, where I am living in a mountain village where plants can't be farmed, where I have no access to any of the produce I do now and so need to hunt my own food, and where all animals are treated from birth to death in 100% happy humane ways and slaughtered with the minimum amount of cruelty. So, yes, in such a mountain village, I would likely not be vegan :D)
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Re: eating meat

Postby Wittyname » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:09 pm UTC

Then we are in entire agreement on this point :D

(Although, I did used to live in a mountain village :P In the Nilgiris district in India -- very jungle-ful mountains. Even there, vegetarian diets were overwhelmingly more common, and not impractical.)

*is jealous* why do other people get to live in interesting places? It's not fair...

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Re: eating meat

Postby Amoeba » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:47 pm UTC

I know someone who eats meat unless it comes from a creature that is 'very ugly' (fish, for example) or 'very cute' (lamb, rabbits). She upsets me.
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Re: eating meat

Postby hero imprisoned » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:00 pm UTC

For me, it would be more productive to describe my vegan ideals as being "anti-anthropocentric" rather than "anti-speciesist". I think that most of the time people are talking about speciesism, they're really talking about how anthropocentric most people are.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Jorsh! » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:06 am UTC

Amoeba wrote:I know someone who eats meat unless it comes from a creature that is 'very ugly' (fish, for example) or 'very cute' (lamb, rabbits). She upsets me.

Really, it all comes down to eyebrows. North Americans don't like to eat anything with eyebrows.

P.S.: Most sheep are ugly and mean by the time we eat them. I'm totally serious.
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Re: eating meat

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:37 am UTC

Amoeba wrote:I know someone who eats meat unless it comes from a creature that is 'very ugly' (fish, for example) or 'very cute' (lamb, rabbits). She upsets me.


I won't eat animals that I would not want to be anywhere near. Like lobsters- underwater mutant cockroaches. I would never eat one. I would also not eat a rabbit unless I was starving, because to me, rabbits are pet animals. People who don't think of rabbits as pets are free to eat them.

Also, directed towards the vegan liberationists- do those of us who do live in the country and have lots of options to buy from organic family farms where the animals are treated well get a pass on the whole abuser of slaves thing? I really see no reason not to eat the eggs of a free-range chicken- you're not doing it any favors by not eating an unfertilized egg. The chicken will lay one every day regardless. In fact, it's more harmful for those free range chickens to leave the eggs lying around, because rats love eggs, and a rat infestation is the last thing a coop needs. After all, besides the fleas and diseases, rats kill chickens.

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Re: eating meat

Postby hero imprisoned » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:04 pm UTC

Kendo_Bunny wrote:Also, directed towards the vegan liberationists- do those of us who do live in the country and have lots of options to buy from organic family farms where the animals are treated well get a pass on the whole abuser of slaves thing? I really see no reason not to eat the eggs of a free-range chicken- you're not doing it any favors by not eating an unfertilized egg. The chicken will lay one every day regardless. In fact, it's more harmful for those free range chickens to leave the eggs lying around, because rats love eggs, and a rat infestation is the last thing a coop needs. After all, besides the fleas and diseases, rats kill chickens.


Not from me, you wouldn't, but there are lots of people who feel differently about it. Like I said before, people who aren't getting their food from industrial agriculture are definitely doing less harm to the world than people who are. This is a morally superior choice, in my mind, and I applaud you for it. However, I also think that the domestication of animals as resources/livestock is a bad thing. Regardless of how animals are raised and how they live their lives, there is one inescapable truth to their existences: They are living to serve a purpose to human beings that they would not serve on their own in the wild.

I firmly believe that regardless of species (or my ability to communicate with said species), animals deserve to live in the wild, free of human control. This is why I oppose circumstances like the ones you're discussing, K_B. I do recognize it as a "lesser evil", and certainly wouldn't spend any time or effort preventing it from happening or convincing it's perpetrators that they're slave-owners, as it were, but it's not a "free pass" situation either.

As a side note: There are absolutely no legal restrictions on the term "free-range" - keep that in mind when trying to shop for those sorts of things. An animal can be kept in a cardboard box it's whole life and still produce "free-range" products.

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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

I was going to say -- mostly everything hero imprisoned just said. Comparatively, utilizing products from better-treated animals is preferably to utilizing products from more inhumanely-treated animals. That doesn't make imprisoning animals and forcing them to serve our purposes an acceptable thing to me, though.
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Re: eating meat

Postby Nemiro » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:16 pm UTC

hero imprisoned wrote:
Kendo_Bunny wrote:Also, directed towards the vegan liberationists- do those of us who do live in the country and have lots of options to buy from organic family farms where the animals are treated well get a pass on the whole abuser of slaves thing? I really see no reason not to eat the eggs of a free-range chicken- you're not doing it any favors by not eating an unfertilized egg. The chicken will lay one every day regardless. In fact, it's more harmful for those free range chickens to leave the eggs lying around, because rats love eggs, and a rat infestation is the last thing a coop needs. After all, besides the fleas and diseases, rats kill chickens.


...However, I also think that the domestication of animals as resources/livestock is a bad thing. Regardless of how animals are raised and how they live their lives, there is one inescapable truth to their existences: They are living to serve a purpose to human beings that they would not serve on their own in the wild.


What, so in the wild people don't remember where certain flocks of birds live/make nests, and then pilfer their eggs? (A process which has likely gone on since the dawn of hunter gatherer society)
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Re: eating meat

Postby natraj » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:39 am UTC

Nemiro wrote:What, so in the wild people don't remember where certain flocks of birds live/make nests, and then pilfer their eggs? (A process which has likely gone on since the dawn of hunter gatherer society)


Killing is a part of nature. What we do -- imprisoning animals, cultivating them solely to serve our purposes, abusing them rampantly -- that's so far removed from anything resembling natural that the comparison is completely bogus.
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Re: eating meat

Postby Kendo_Bunny » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:46 am UTC

Just to argue the point:

Suppose that my father did own the pig he wants (for the record, my father lives on several acres in the country). Dad wants to build a portable pen for it for the warmer months, as well as a sty for it in the cooler months. The pig will eat the vegetable scraps from the table that the dog won't eat, will root around in the garden to pre-till it, and will fertilize it at the same time. So I suppose if you were getting down to brass tacks, the pig would be a combination disposal and gardening service. However, that domesticated pig would help cut down on waste and on consumption from business farms, and prevent chemical fertilizers from going into the soil. Also, the pig's rooting would cut down on the need to use a gas-powered machine to till the feild properly to seed it. The family would not be intending to eat this pig, but even if we were, we would figure it as a mutually beneficial relationship. The pig would get a warm place to sleep, a healthy diet, a proper wallow, as well as prompt medical care. If we were planning to eat it, it would be killed humanely, then used completely. In return, even not eating it, we're getting our scraps and overripe produce eaten rather than wasted and our garden tilled for the next season's planting.

Now, is this really something bad that the pig would need to liberated from? Maybe I'm still stuck in the 1800's, but I have plenty of experience with small family farms and not much experience with factory farms. I think factory farms are as wrong as puppy mills, but there is a huge disconnect going on here. A factory farm is totally different than a family farm, just like a responsible dog breeder is lightyears away from a puppy miller. That's what always confuses me when people start talking about how unethical it is to eat meat and to raise animals, then compares the animals to tortured, abused slaves. The kind of blanket sweeps going on here really aren't helping anyone- no one is making their position look stronger by ignoring the parts that aren't bad.

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Re: eating meat

Postby Nemiro » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:39 am UTC

natraj wrote:
Nemiro wrote:What, so in the wild people don't remember where certain flocks of birds live/make nests, and then pilfer their eggs? (A process which has likely gone on since the dawn of hunter gatherer society)


Killing is a part of nature. What we do -- imprisoning animals, cultivating them solely to serve our purposes, abusing them rampantly -- that's so far removed from anything resembling natural that the comparison is completely bogus.


I've googled repeatedly, but all I can find is people saying the same thing as you when I search for interspecies exploitation in the natural world - but I'm pretty sure I saw a program on the Discovery channel (or Nat Geo) that showed how some animals (probably insects) raising a another species for their own use. (I know this is vague as hell, but I can't believe that there are no relationships at all between other species that are not mutually beneficial, as you would like to believe.

And where did I mention killing the birds?
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