guenther wrote:Well, I don't promote religion as a whole. Rather I've cast my lot with Christianity and it's system for life. I believe at a personal level the tools in the Bible can help individuals and groups of individuals achieve results that they find better.
And in most of what I'm speaking of is talking about Christianity, and specifically christianity within the United States or historical effect of christianity on the world.
At the macro level, I don't know how to fix these problems. But I do believe that it will require moving in a different direction that most of us are naturally inclined to go. And I think the direction has more to do with how we emotionally, not rationally, regard each other. So the solution will be able to bring together religious and non-religous alike.
I agree, moving in a different direction then people are inclined to go. Funny enough that means moving toward exactly what I'm talking about. People are not inclined to value reasonability, logic or scientific thinking. We have to teach it and cultivate that value. There is still far more people in the world that value the concepts created by Christianity then those created by thinking. I think that needs to change.
And again, science is not anti-religious. Religion is anti-science, which creates a environment where scientific thinkers have to defend themselves from religion. It is rarely the other way around, generally only found in groups of atheists who feel they have been scorned by religion and the use poor science as a way to emotionally debate religion.
But that's not evidence of teaching people science and reason to better tackle problems in life. Show me a group of people trained in the way you're suggesting, and show me how they outperform others on some metric of betterness. I'm guessing you can't, or even if you can it won't show that the training method will suffer if it includes some unsupported core beliefs about God.
I can show you lots of individuals, but as of now, to my knowledge at least, there is not prevalent philosophical institution that has a strong following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humanists
Most of these people are within the International Academy of Humanism, which is a secular institution. Others are in different secular groups, although some are within non-secular humanist groups.
You're assuming causation again. Perhaps religion has been strongly associated with these divides, but without religion that doesn't mean these divides wouldn't happen for other reasons. We hold a different view because I don't share your belief.
No religion creates divides. It takes a definitive stance on philosophical issues based on no evidence at all. Anyone that does not agree with that framework is on the other team. It makes it rules and forces people to follow them, if they dont share those viewpoints they are not of ones own team. It creates the divide.
My experience with this mainly comes from interacting with people on these forums*. For example you seem to be OK with scoffing at people for sticking with religion rather than using what you believe are superior tools. I believe that scoffing is a poor way to send messages like that.
I don't perceive my self to be scoffing. But yes I think the religions tools are inferior to the ones I'm speaking of. Due to history, due to current problems in society, due to the human condition, and due to a value set that Christianity values very little, that of educating their laity. And if you don't value education nor do you feel it educating the masses is a valuable thing to do...well...
And these forums are filled with people treating other people like shit, and I've found that calling them on it is very ineffective. Particularly I'm thinking in relation to issues of homosexuality. I bet there's a wide group of people on here that strongly believe that people who oppose homosexuality or oppose gay marriage don't deserve to be treated with respect. In fact, I've seen a few people openly admit to it. But there are other areas (e.g. racism, politics in general) where I've observed similar behavior. And I've seen this from Christians too, but they don't seem to come to these forums as much, at least as far as I can tell.
Yup, but religion isn't better at that. So stop pretending it is. The Christians in America are the ones implying gay people are sinful, not human and not worthy of rights.
I'm not advocating that you deserve no respect for being religious. I am however advocating that the institution you seem to belong to is not something to be respected due to the negative effect it has on other people and the thinking capabilities of its laity.
As far as I can tell, people as a whole seem to have a hard time making this distinction.
Yes and everything I'm speaking of works to teach people about that failure within our on cognitive abilities. Churches does not.
My oldest child is three years old, and she has a limited capacity for evaluating truth. So for now my wife and I indoctrinate her with values that we find important. I don't ask her to evaluate for herself whether pushing her baby brother is good or bad; I give her the answer*. When she gets older and has the capability to see a bigger picture, then I want to help her understand why we have the rules we do, not simply to believe they're right because mom and dad say so.
You don't seem to understand what indoctrination is, probably why you argued for its value in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrinationhttp://www.reference.com/browse/indoctrination
If you expect her to challenge the views in which you have taught her and create her own. You are by definition not indoctrinating her.