Suicide (Re-named)

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Suicide (Re-named)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:06 am UTC

hermaj wrote:but if you want to start seriously talking about the "I hate myself and want to die" branch of suicide you might need to start a new thread for that, because it's a different sort of area.


So here's the other thread. Apart from issues of death with dignity/euthanasia, what do you think ethically about suicide in general?
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Postby Yakk » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:31 am UTC

Suicide is impolite.

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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:37 am UTC

I stated my position in the other thread.

The right to die doesn't only apply when people choose to apply it.

It's simply their.

It can be be painful, it could be a 'waste' in our eyes.

But it is that individuals choice to make, not ours.

I say this, having had a close friend hang himself in his room, leaving no note, no reason, and no clue to his friends.

I was the only person that stood up for him.

Personally, I have no fear of death. I enjoy life, however. If that should change, were I to strongly feel that I would not enjoy life anymore?

Then I'd see what happens next.

Of course, even when I'm quite down, I still find things to enjoy.

But, ultimately, I can see no consistent right to stop somebody from acting upon themselves, without establishing very dangerous precendents.
Last edited by VannA on Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:38 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ivnja » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:22 am UTC

People are already prohibited from doing drugs and such, so the precedent is there already. I do, however, agree that it is dangerous.
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Postby Belial » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:25 am UTC

Agreed. The precedent is there. But it really shouldn't be.
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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:47 am UTC

Suicide is for losers.

Especially losers with no self-esteem.

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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:22 am UTC

Leaving adside the effect it has on others (which is in my opinion a very strong argument against suicide), one reason there is a need to discourage suicide is the fact that human emotion- especially in some- is incredibly volatile and subject to huge levels of change and fluctuation, as are the external and internal factors that shape it; death, on the other hand, is final and irrevocable.

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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:28 am UTC

Axolotl wrote:Leaving adside the effect it has on others (which is in my opinion a very strong argument against suicide), one reason there is a need to discourage suicide is the fact that human emotion- especially in some- is incredibly volatile and subject to huge levels of change and fluctuation, as are the external and internal factors that shape it; death, on the other hand, is final and irrevocable.


So?

I agree its a very strong argument against suicide... does that actually give us the right to tell somebody they cannot do it, however? I mean, if they decide to.. then they are either in a position where they do not care, or the have considered it, and still think its the best option (The Butterfly Effect, anybody?)

As for the rest.. I don't get your point.
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Postby TitaniumOctane » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:44 am UTC

Don't do something you cant change later.- i think that quote sums up my opinion. most of the people that i know that are suicidal problems can be fix, but their vision is clouded by either stress of the situation, or the hopelessness. The thing they need to know is that everything can be fixed one way or another. I personally have stopped 3 people that i know of from committing suicide and 2 people i hadn't met before

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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:51 am UTC

My point is that I don't subscribe to the libertarian idea that people never need protection from themselves. I believe that poker machines should be banned because of the effect they have on the lives of people with a tendency towards gambling addiction. I believe that some drugs should be banned because of the horrific effects they have on those- often those who are most vulnerable to begin with- who fall under their control. I believe that suicide (and here I'm making a distinction between suicide and euthenasia, with the implication that terminal/incurable illness is not involved) should not be legal as this would dramatically increase the likelihood of vulnerable people ending their lives prematurely, and in doing so not only robbing countless people of a loved one, but themselves of the one thing that is truly irreplacable. I guess what I'm saying is that there are so, so many possible ways for someone to end their life prematurely, either through something as simple as a short-term altered state of consciousness (from whatever cause, be it mental illness, substance abuse, whatever) resulting in the inability to truly assess the irreversible consequence of their actions, or true long term depression, which while incredibly painful and difficult is rarely, if ever, without the possibility of treatment and partial or full recovery. I'm saying it would be a tragedy to encourage vulnerable people (legalisation would presumably increase the ease, and, as a byproduct, the perceived simplicity and 'painlessness', of sucide) to take the ultimate drastic step of giving up on life.

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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:04 am UTC

Axolotl wrote:My point is that I don't subscribe to the libertarian idea that people never need protection from themselves. I believe that poker machines should be banned because of the effect they have on the lives of people with a tendency towards gambling addiction. I believe that some drugs should be banned because of the horrific effects they have on those- often those who are most vulnerable to begin with- who fall under their control. I believe that suicide (and here I'm making a distinction between suicide and euthenasia, with the implication that terminal/incurable illness is not involved) should not be legal as this would dramatically increase the likelihood of vulnerable people ending their lives prematurely, and in doing so not only robbing countless people of a loved one, but themselves of the one thing that is truly irreplacable. I guess what I'm saying is that there are so, so many possible ways for someone to end their life prematurely, either through something as simple as a short-term altered state of consciousness (from whatever cause, be it mental illness, substance abuse, whatever) resulting in the inability to truly assess the irreversible consequence of their actions, or true long term depression, which while incredibly painful and difficult is rarely, if ever, without the possibility of treatment and partial or full recovery. I'm saying it would be a tragedy to encourage vulnerable people (legalisation would presumably increase the ease, and, as a byproduct, the perceived simplicity and 'painlessness', of sucide) to take the ultimate drastic step of giving up on life.


So, through the continued propogation of irresponsibility, you are actually helping people how?

You can't save people from themselves.
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Postby Icaruse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:08 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Suicide is for losers.

Especially losers with no self-esteem.


Hurrah! You said the scientifically-proven worst possible thing to say to and/or near someone considering committing suicide. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Anyway, I see no reason why society can't tell its individuals that they cannot commit suicide as long as it actually does defer individuals from doing so. From a practical PoV, people rarely genuinely want to commit suicide, there is rarely any benefit for committing suicide and always pains and losses. Just like you define morals such as "it is not right to kill others" for practical and emotional reasoning, for the same reasons, why shouldn't suicide be morally wrong? It is an act towards self-gain that drastically effects society and hurts others.

The problem is that if you try to sanction the mind too much, you could just worsen the situation. Without an image of a last-resort way out in the back of ones mind, one could deteriorate until they snap in some way. Obviously suicide should be prevented at all costs, at least with the younger, but it's hard to say what the best way to do that is. And it is easy to see that villanizing the committers and certainly the potential committers isn’t the best way.

Although there is the argument that without control over ones own death, there is no true freedom (that I’m certainly not going to argue against), I don’t think this is the key issue very often in practical cases.

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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am UTC

Suicide is illegal for the same reason that euthanasia is illegal. Just about noone is in their right mind when they decide to do it.

And yes, people who commit suicide -DESERVE- to die. Anyone selfish and stupid enough to do that is a loser.
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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:19 am UTC

VannA wrote:So, through the continued propogation of irresponsibility, you are actually helping people how?


'Propogation' because, what, if we don't just leave them to bump themselves off they might recover and end up having irresponsible little suicidal babies?

You can't save people from themselves.


If by that you mean you can't help people through actions that curb their personal freedom in the short term (if not, I fail to see the relevance), then, well, yes you can. If someone has developed a life-destroying addiction, they may be unable to beat it alone, and require assistance. This assistance will involve keeping them away from the object of their addiction, even when they 'want' to be left alone and allowed to seek it out. I defy you to suggest that assisting them in this way is not a positive action.

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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:23 am UTC

Also,

Gelsamel wrote:And yes, people who commit suicide -DESERVE- to die. Anyone selfish and stupid enough to do that is a loser.


I really think you need to have a bit of a deeper think about this. If you have, and that's a genuinely thought-out belief, then I urge you to be very careful about to whom and in what circumstances you express it. I personally believe is an incredibly short-sighted and insensitive view, demonstrating above all else a simple lack of understanding, however regardless of the validity of that it is a view that when expressed could cause great harm to certain people.

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Postby Icaruse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:04 am UTC

And yes, people who commit suicide -DESERVE- to die. Anyone selfish and stupid enough to do that is a loser.

And now they hate themselves and want to die any more because they found out that they are stupid and selfish enough to deserve to die. Hurrah! you're part of the solution: the eradication of all depressed and suicidal people. That's not at all hypocritical, no sir-ee.

I guess people in their right mind want others to die rather than themselves: survival of the self-important. Certainly nothing particularly wrong with that logic (and in many ways, I agree with it), just extremely counter-productive to express.

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Postby EstLladon » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:52 am UTC

Better be alive then dead. There is nothing after death, and I pretty enjoy existance. I see no point in my suicide. Or anybody's in this foum.

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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:54 am UTC

Axolotl wrote:
VannA wrote:So, through the continued propogation of irresponsibility, you are actually helping people how?


'Propogation' because, what, if we don't just leave them to bump themselves off they might recover and end up having irresponsible little suicidal babies?


I'm not just talking about suicide, I'm talking about gambling, about irresponsible parenting, drinking, etc.

Show 1 case, anywhere, in existance, where prohibtion has actually worked.

Axolotl wrote:
You can't save people from themselves.


If by that you mean you can't help people through actions that curb their personal freedom in the short term (if not, I fail to see the relevance), then, well, yes you can. If someone has developed a life-destroying addiction, they may be unable to beat it alone, and require assistance. This assistance will involve keeping them away from the object of their addiction, even when they 'want' to be left alone and allowed to seek it out. I defy you to suggest that assisting them in this way is not a positive action.


That is *not* a positve action. The absolute first step in curing a dependancy addiction, physical or psychological, is acknowledgement of the problem, and agreeance that it requires fixing by the addict.
Then, you can help the addict prevent themselves from partaking.

Anything else, and you'll have moved the addiction, or simply put it into remission. You've not fixed it.

Suicide is exactly the same.
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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:30 am UTC

VannA wrote:I'm not just talking about suicide, I'm talking about gambling, about irresponsible parenting, drinking, etc.

Show 1 case, anywhere, in existance, where prohibtion has actually worked.


Okay. If you're going to call the banning of poker machines a form of "prohibition", then my "one case" is every state in every country where poker machines have not been introduced. Benefit: many fewer people with life-destroying gambling problems. Cost: a few filthy dollars in government revenue, and a small amount of brief, mindless 'fun' for those who are not susceptible to addiction.

I never suggested prohibition of alcohol: there is a difference between preventing a specific individual from accessing something, and instituting a national ban on it.

Regarding other drugs, then if by 'worked' you mean 'resulted in a perfect situation', then of course legislating against the importation and possession of drugs rarely if ever 'works'. But by limiting supply and at least making it harder for people to access some of the more dangerous drugs, positive results can be achieved. Yes, there are huge problems with this, regarding imperfect policing and the often poor quality of what does make it onto the black market, however I strongly disagree that an 'open slather' policy is the answer.

(Regarding "irresponsible parenting", I'm not sure what you meant or how it's relevant.)

"VannA" wrote:
"Axolotl" wrote:
"VannA" wrote:You can't save people from themselves.


If by that you mean you can't help people through actions that curb their personal freedom in the short term (if not, I fail to see the relevance), then, well, yes you can. If someone has developed a life-destroying addiction, they may be unable to beat it alone, and require assistance. This assistance will involve keeping them away from the object of their addiction, even when they 'want' to be left alone and allowed to seek it out. I defy you to suggest that assisting them in this way is not a positive action.


That is *not* a positve action. The absolute first step in curing a dependancy addiction, physical or psychological, is acknowledgement of the problem, and agreeance that it requires fixing by the addict.
Then, you can help the addict prevent themselves from partaking.

Anything else, and you'll have moved the addiction, or simply put it into remission. You've not fixed it.

Suicide is exactly the same.


In both cases, the removal of the 'choice' of self-harm is not proposed as a full solution in itself. It is one step that must be taken to buy some time and prevent the person in question from doing more harm to themself/ending their life, to help them reach a point where deeper, more cause- than symptom-related assistance can be given. In the specific case of a substance addiction, I'm not suggesting that the first step should always be to remove the substance from the person without consent; obviously this is undesirable if the addiction can be tackled more directly from the get-go (although even with consent, they will in all likelihood 'change their mind' at some stage, and beg for the self-imposed ban to be lifted. What would you suggest be done at this point?). However, if the person is doing incremental damage to their mind and body every time the succumb to this addiction, then yes, it will often be necessary to remove the availability of the substance before attacking the root cause.


In any case, the finality of the act of suicide means that it is clearly not 'exactly the same'. If someone kills themself, they can no longer be helped. Their life is over, forever.

If this person, as will often be the case, is someone who could have been helped, and in the long run experienced genuine happiness and a meaningful life, then this (to me) is a tragedy that is more than worth annoying a few libertarians to avert.

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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:19 am UTC

I express it when people ask my opinion by posting a suicide discussion thread on a forum.
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Postby German Sausage » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:47 am UTC

i agree with gelsamel, if in slightly more palatable terms.
-im aware that my take on euthanasia can be seen as the opposite to this, but it is our responsibility as fellow humans to try and keep one another alive. if we gain in some way from having them alive, all the better, but outside of serious illness, crippling disability or being a drama queen there is no circumstance where suicide is rational.
-we have always got the ability to try to better our situation, even if only slightly. i understand despair, and it passes. not quickly, but it does, if we take action to better our situation.

in conclusion-
-thinking about suicide?
call 1800-harden-the-fuck-up.
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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:45 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:I express it when people ask my opinion by posting a suicide discussion thread on a forum.

I guess what I'm saying is that an opinion so simplistic, immature and hurtful is pretty offensive even when expressed in the 'appropriate' context. Although the fact that you've effectively stated that the relative of mine who survived a suicide attempt is a 'loser who deserves to die' understandably gets me going a bit, it is something I can cope with. However for someone who had personally been in that situation, having that message repeatedly reinforced- even if only by internet cowards- could have a pretty serious effect on their mental state.



German Sausage wrote:in conclusion-
-thinking about suicide?
call 1800-harden-the-fuck-up.


Or perhaps you need to realise that some people go through things that you never have, and if you're lucky never will, and stop wearing your lack of understanding and compassion as a badge of honour. I'm not even necessarily referring to specific life events, but simply how these things affect people internally. This is different for everyone, and you have absolutely no right to judge others in such a way in regards to how they cope, or don't, with their own troubles.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that I think suicide is the 'right way out' (obviously, given my earlier posts), and even concede that at one level there is a great deal of selfishness and disregard for others involved in many suicide attempts: the effect on loved ones is one of the main reasons I disagree with the legalisation of suicide. However, I also realise that, ok, for someone to get to the stage of truly wanting to end their own life, perhaps they are really, really suffering, in a way that most of us are lucky enough to be unable to directly empathise with, and that perhaps attacking them as 'weak' is both a horrible and a profoundly unhelpful thing to do.
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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:02 pm UTC

Axolotl wrote:This is different for everyone, and you have absolutely no right to judge others in such a way in regards to how they cope, or don't, with their own troubles.


Except by removing their legal right to die by their own hand.

/cheapshot.
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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:08 pm UTC

Axolotl wrote:Or perhaps you need to realise that some people go through things that you never have, and if you're lucky never will, and stop wearing your lack of understanding and compassion as a fucking badge of honour. I'm not even necessarily referring to specific life events, but simply how these things affect people internally. This is different for everyone, and you have absolutely no right to judge others in such a way in regards to how they cope, or don't, with their own troubles.


My EXACT message to people who are suicidal. There are thousands if not millions worse off then you.. No offence to your friend or what ever, I'm sure he was a nice guy and all, but committing suicide is by far, the most self serving and stupid act someone can commit.

However, I also realise that, ok, for someone to get to the stage of truly wanting to end their own life, perhaps they are really, really suffering, in a way that most of us are lucky enough to be unable to directly empathise with, and that perhaps attacking them as 'weak' is both a horrible and a profoundly unhelpful thing to do.


You have your legs blown off, your arms blown off, your friends and family killed in front of your own eyes and you're in an inactive state where you still feel excruciating pain but can't move or do anything, and you're still conscious.

Okay, I accept that suicide is probably the best course in that situation. Anything less is fucking selfish.

Anyone wanting their life ended for anything not equal or worse to that is not in their right mind.
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Postby Andrew » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:12 pm UTC

VannA wrote:I stated my position in the other thread. The right to die doesn't only apply when people choose to apply it. It's simply [there]. It can be be painful, it could be a 'waste' in our eyes. But it is that individuals choice to make, not ours. I say this, having had a close friend hang himself in his room, leaving no note, no reason, and no clue to his friends. I was the only person that stood up for him. Personally, I have no fear of death. I enjoy life, however. If that should change, were I to strongly feel that I would not enjoy life anymore? Then I'd see what happens next. Of course, even when I'm quite down, I still find things to enjoy. But, ultimately, I can see no consistent right to stop somebody from acting upon themselves, without establishing very dangerous precendents.

I turned your poem into prose. Hope that's OK.

In principle, I agree with you. In principle, everyone has the right to live or die and choose between the two until nature chooses for them. In principle.

In practice, though, suicide is almost always committed by people who probably should themselves be committed instead. Medically, suicide is treated as a mental illness, not as an act. Almost everyone who commits suicide does so not out of free choice but because they're messed up in the head somehow or other.

So in real life preventing suicide is, in almost all cases, the right thing to do. If someone can put forward a convincing argument as to why they want to die then fair enough, but generally they can't.

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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:34 pm UTC

VannA I agree with you, go ahead and commit suicide if you really want too. I don't fear death either. But I'm still going to call you a loser if you hang yourself.
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Postby German Sausage » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:47 pm UTC

axolotl, that last bit was kinda a joke.
-i maintain that suicide is too final an option, and i cannot see a situation that cannot be bettered beyond cases where it falls under the banner euthanasia, or some absolutely terrible domestic/cultural scenarios.
-i know im lucky that im happy. if reincarnation is true, all i want is another go at this. but to take your argument to its extreme, who am i to say that a murderer was wrong? that person clearly went through all sorts of things that i will never know, that obviously affected them internally. who am i to judge their passion-fueled bloody rampage
judging people's actions is why we have a society that functions.
eg
i want a motorbike BUT people will judge me negatively if i steal that one. therefore i will pursue other routes of acquiring one.
replace motorbike with 'release from my problems'
________magic line of separating argument(<-) from wild speculation(->)__________

maybe in societies where suicide had stronger taboos against it people did it less because they knew they would be remembered in a negative light.
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Postby space_raptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:19 pm UTC

Some people suffer from the disease of depression. They need serious psychological and medicinal help. These people might not know what they're doing. They're irrational.

Unfortunately, if they don't have a reason to live, eventually, they'll quit. They need support so that they will have a reason to live. But it can't be blind support.


If somebody would somehow be suicidal, without suffering from depression, I'm with Gelsamel. Quite often life involves suffering. Many in this world have suffered unimaginably, and they go on living. I don't have a lot of patience for emo bullshit.
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Postby Rose34 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:31 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Axolotl wrote:Or perhaps you need to realise that some people go through things that you never have, and if you're lucky never will, and stop wearing your lack of understanding and compassion as a fucking badge of honour. I'm not even necessarily referring to specific life events, but simply how these things affect people internally. This is different for everyone, and you have absolutely no right to judge others in such a way in regards to how they cope, or don't, with their own troubles.


My EXACT message to people who are suicidal. There are thousands if not millions worse off then you.. No offence to your friend or what ever, I'm sure he was a nice guy and all, but committing suicide is by far, the most self serving and stupid act someone can commit.

However, I also realise that, ok, for someone to get to the stage of truly wanting to end their own life, perhaps they are really, really suffering, in a way that most of us are lucky enough to be unable to directly empathise with, and that perhaps attacking them as 'weak' is both a horrible and a profoundly unhelpful thing to do.


You have your legs blown off, your arms blown off, your friends and family killed in front of your own eyes and you're in an inactive state where you still feel excruciating pain but can't move or do anything, and you're still conscious.

Okay, I accept that suicide is probably the best course in that situation. Anything less is fucking selfish.

Anyone wanting their life ended for anything not equal or worse to that is not in their right mind.


Calling suicide selfish in no way negates that the individual who is contemplating it is still going through things you will never (hopefully) understand. Of course it's selfish, it's possibly the most selfish thing you could do, it's the ultimate cry for attention and understanding. Which is just another way to say that it's a cry for help. You say that suicide is selfish as if selfish is the worst possible thing to be, well, sometimes selfishness is not only necessary, it's the most moral thing you can do. Very, very few people commit suicide because they are happy with their life as they have lived it and are fulfilled and it's time for them to move on, people commit suicide because they need and want help, how would sanctioning suicide give these people what they really want? If they were really wanting to die, and it was their true choice then maybe, but it's not. So do we sanction what they say they want, or what they really want? It's a very tricky moral struggle. We've all been in a relationship where you want your partner to do or say something, but you can't tell them because you want them to know on their own, and then get mad because they didn't do it. I know it's sort of a simplistic analogy, but before getting into legislation, you have to get into what exactly your morality is based on. Is it personal freedoms, how much does the group outweigh the individual? Is it freedom from, or freedom to?

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Postby Tractor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:51 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:And yes, people who commit suicide -DESERVE- to die. Anyone selfish and stupid enough to do that is a loser.

Gelsamel wrote:My EXACT message to people who are suicidal. There are thousands if not millions worse off then you.. No offence to your friend or what ever, I'm sure he was a nice guy and all, but committing suicide is by far, the most self serving and stupid act someone can commit.

I came to the same conclusions when considering suicide (years ago). I think Gel has hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Icaruse wrote:And now they hate themselves and want to die any more because they found out that they are stupid and selfish enough to deserve to die. Hurrah! you're part of the solution: the eradication of all depressed and suicidal people. That's not at all hypocritical, no sir-ee.

I guess people in their right mind want others to die rather than themselves: survival of the self-important. Certainly nothing particularly wrong with that logic (and in many ways, I agree with it), just extremely counter-productive to express.


If you're already suicidal, and have managed to get the bullet off before you come to the conclusions Gel has, you deserve it.
Also, I fail to see how hypocrisy applies.
And it's not 'self-important' - it's 'fittest'. If you're not up to par with managing to keep yourself alive to propogate the species, self inflicted no less, it is probably best that you're gone.
And why not express it? Letting someone who is considering it know that there is far worse scenarios than theirs out there, that it is a stupid idea, and that it is selfish (noting the impact on others) can give a great deal of perspective.
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Postby parkaboy » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:57 pm UTC

sometimes when i think i want to just stop being i realise i'd be leaving behind a lot of people, and its a horribly selfish way out.

so then i wonder "well, why cant we just ALL die? like a natural disaster of cataclysmic proportions? that'd be good..." but then i realise i'm talking theoretical suicide AND global genocide and thats not much better, i suppose.

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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:22 pm UTC

Rose34 wrote:Calling suicide selfish in no way negates that the individual who is contemplating it is still going through things you will never (hopefully) understand.


Right, and it doesn't change the fact many others have it worse then them.

Of course it's selfish, it's possibly the most selfish thing you could do, it's the ultimate cry for attention and understanding. Which is just another way to say that it's a cry for help.


Yup, basically what I said, except we can't really help you when you're dead can we? That establishes that it's selfish and stupid.

You say that suicide is selfish as if selfish is the worst possible thing to be, well, sometimes selfishness is not only necessary, it's the most moral thing you can do.


I'm not talking about morals (moral relativist here), I'm talking about whether or not I think you're a loser if you commit suicide.

And I don't have a stance on legislation because of that very reason.
"Give up here?"
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Postby Aoeniac » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:35 pm UTC

Jeeze, sometimes I just wish all the people who think suicide is a good idea would just go kill themselves or something...


Wait...
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Postby Peshmerga » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:40 pm UTC

I'm almost certain suicide is illegal because of will contract voids and other legal matters pertaining to aftermath.

As for "people have it worse than you" argument, it's all relative, man. You can't say that one person's misfortune is worse or better than anyone else's. Psychologically speaking, suicide is usually the result of long term depression, which is indeed a biological disease. Just because the kids in Africa aren't getting their food and their mothers are raped continuously by militia doesn't mean they have more of a right to suicide than anyone else.

Low self esteem -> short term depression -> long term depression -> suicide

Of course suicide isn't the only result of long term depression - a lot escape depression with the help of drugs, friends, and therapy. But ultimately suicide is the metaphorical breaking point where an individual has a clear and conscious decision to take their own lives. It is not something a person in a normal state of mind could ever understand, nor should victims of long term depression be judged as a few others here have.

I've never been at this point, but I've done a lot of study on the matter as two of my close friends are clinically depressed. I've been to the brink of darkness some nights, but never pushed beyond it. Suicide is an awful way to go, and anyone who knows someone who is clinically depressed should make immediate action to befriend them as you may indeed help them through it.

Truly depression is the only topic I get sensitive about. It makes me gorram sad to even think about.
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Postby Axolotl » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:36 pm UTC

German Sausage wrote:axolotl, that last bit was kinda a joke.


Yeah sorry if I jumped down your throat, I was getting a bit worked up and the thing is that so many people say that sort of thing in a serious fashion that it can be hard to tell.


Gelsamel wrote:No offence to your friend or what ever, I'm sure he was a nice guy and all


Well thanks, but it doesn't really work that way... "no offense or anything, but your cousin is an idiotic, selfish loser who deserves to be dead."


I'm not going to keep banging on and replying to every second post, I'm getting too worked up and repeating myself anyway. But I'd just like to restate that it to me demostrates a deep lack of understanding and sensitivity to apply simplistic, blanket conclusions to everyone who has been in a position to take their own life. Anyone who has read my earlier posts will know that I'm not advocating suicide, or suggesting that it is a 'courageous' act, but simply advocating a greater degree of compassion and *assistance* for people who are suffering and vulnerable, and less harsh, simplistic judgment shouted out to the world.

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Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:49 pm UTC

If someone believes that their life is not worth living, and I do not disagree, why should I attempt to convince them otherwise?

If I believe in scarcity of resources, view this other person as a competitor (if a nearly insignificant one), and do not benefit from the existence of this person more than I lose from their competition, why should I convince them to continue to compete with me?


There isn't a gun in my home because my mother is prone to depression. I talk about suicide with my friends. I have many who have considered it (but, none that I know have attempted it). It *is* an option, and presenting the opposite reduces that person's trust of you. The only argument you can make is that they will be missed; that living is better than not; and an emotional appeal to stay alive for you. If the argument is presented and rejected, I see no reason for them to be prevented by the government from following through (although, obviously, my emotional attachment will cause me some discomfort).

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Postby Gelsamel » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:34 pm UTC

I'm applying no blanket rule.

Gelsamel wrote:You have your legs blown off, your arms blown off, your friends and family killed in front of your own eyes and you're in an inactive state where you still feel excruciating pain but can't move or do anything, and you're still conscious.


Is one of a few exceptions.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
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"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Postby Icaruse » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:01 am UTC

Tractor wrote:Also, I fail to see how hypocrisy applies.

You don't find it hypocritical to wish death upon others because they wish death upon themselves? At the very least it's double-standards or otherwise controdictory.

Tractor wrote:And it's not 'self-important' - it's 'fittest'. If you're not up to par with managing to keep yourself alive to propogate the species, self inflicted no less, it is probably best that you're gone.

Right over your head, eh? It was a rephrasing, not a quote/paraphrasing. I was reffering to individual survival, not survival as a species. i.e., the idea (that I very much agree with) that to correctly survive in a competetive society, one has to have a certain degree of selfishness or self-importance such that they consider themselves more worthy of life than the next. One who wants to live is one who deserves to live.

Also, I don't see how mental states developed throughout ones life can be at all genetically propogated. And even so, how is having one (or more) less life better for society?

Tractor wrote:And why not express it? Letting someone who is considering it know that there is far worse scenarios than theirs out there, that it is a stupid idea, and that it is selfish (noting the impact on others) can give a great deal of perspective.

For the last time, it's well-known throughout the field of psychology, etc, that vilifying the act of being depressed and/or suicidal do the exact opposite of making the person better.

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Postby Gelsamel » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:14 am UTC

Icaruse wrote:One who wants to live is one who deserves to live.


Me wrote:people who commit suicide -DESERVE- to die
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Postby fjafjan » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:16 am UTC

If I believe in scarcity of resources, view this other person as a competitor (if a nearly insignificant one), and do not benefit from the existence of this person more than I lose from their competition, why should I convince them to continue to compete with me?


Well because while we are largely selfish we are, as most people with a friend or two knows, not so at all, we are after all group sciecies, whily my DNA might for a generation or so last longer if Ikill all other male I encounted and empregnate all females, soon we would all starve or freeze to death as humans often need to cooperate to survive.

But I think social darwinism is a generally horrible principle for Morality, after all tractor I thought it was you who did NOT want us to throw all our babies in a pit and have them battle to the death?
But anyhow, there is a difference between a clinical depression and a irreversable illness, depression is often as much a PHYSICAL disorder as a mental one, people have various inbalances in head, and while free choice is good I never thought it should be unlimited
I will be content as asying that we are happy one moment and miserable the other, and if it was all too easy to jump off a cliff everytime one felt like it we would most certainly be glad not having that chance when we are happy again.
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