Pez Dispens3r wrote: First of all, the western world also had such 'evil beliefs' regarding 'women, due process, warfare, value of human life, etc' not so long ago, so if you'd like to give me an idea of when the western world went from 'evil' to 'good/satisfactory', i'd love to hear it.
It was a long road beginning around 1900. I would say the 'west' finally made the full tranistion around 1970'ish. With a lot of major steps along the way. (1919 women vote, Geneva convention, Treaty of Westphallia, civil rights, etc)
Pez Dispens3r wrote:The Palestinians hope to win by convincing the Israelis that they can't win, or by convincing the international community that the Israelis are unfair and excessively violent.
I would also argue that some Palestinians dont' view it in those terms. For some, the only thing that matters is killing or removing every single Jew from Israel. I have talked with people living in Palastine who have that very view. For a smaller minority, their goal may only to be 'martyred' meaning they will consider it a major victory if they kill just 1 jew.
Pez Dispens3r wrote:The Palestinians are being provocative and the Israelis are being heavy-handed. Neither are 'wrong', or else both are wrong. Palestinian ideology might be flawed, but I've hardly heard better sentiment come from the Israelis (or even from extra-national Jews).
Just to make my point/opinion clear. I do not blame Israel at all for there actions. They are essentially the good guys in that they show a lot of patience, and they don't purposefully target civilians.
My overall point to the pro-Israeli people here is this:
You are not solving anything with your current tactics. Your fighting with people who have nothing to lose, and I think the analogy is true at this national level as it is at the single person level. When your enemy has nothing to lose and wants your death, you really only have 2 options. Leave, put them in a prison for life, or kill them.
I think this situation is easily resolved if they just leave. The arguments about anti-semitism and a 2nd holocost are total bunk. They stay because of an irrational tie to a plot of desert and the belief everyone is out to get them.
Vietnam, Afghanistan, East Berlin, Ireland, India are all examples of the powerful nations (the grownup if you will) realizing he can't deal with the 'kiddies' anymore and its just better to leave them. I also take into consideration the following information: The British census of Palastine prior to the Jewish immigration.
1922- First British census of Palestine shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian. 1931- Second British census of Palestine shows total population of 1,035,154 with 73.4% Muslim, 16.9% Jewish and 8.6% Christian.. There were no further censuses but statistics were maintained by counting births, deaths and migration. Some components such as illegal immigration could only be estimated approximately. The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population "has risen to some 450,000" and was "approaching a third of the entire population of the country". In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.
I think the palastinians have a strong claim that they 'were there first'. Sure we could go back 5000 years, but then it brings up the question of what about the decendants of Sodom and Gommorah do you want to bicker with them? And since the Palastinians, were first, insane, and unwilling to compromise... simplist answer is to leave the region and open a business in the USA or Canada.