Israel

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Re: Israel

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:14 pm UTC

Pez Dispens3r wrote: First of all, the western world also had such 'evil beliefs' regarding 'women, due process, warfare, value of human life, etc' not so long ago, so if you'd like to give me an idea of when the western world went from 'evil' to 'good/satisfactory', i'd love to hear it.


It was a long road beginning around 1900. I would say the 'west' finally made the full tranistion around 1970'ish. With a lot of major steps along the way. (1919 women vote, Geneva convention, Treaty of Westphallia, civil rights, etc)

Pez Dispens3r wrote:The Palestinians hope to win by convincing the Israelis that they can't win, or by convincing the international community that the Israelis are unfair and excessively violent.


I would also argue that some Palestinians dont' view it in those terms. For some, the only thing that matters is killing or removing every single Jew from Israel. I have talked with people living in Palastine who have that very view. For a smaller minority, their goal may only to be 'martyred' meaning they will consider it a major victory if they kill just 1 jew.

Pez Dispens3r wrote:The Palestinians are being provocative and the Israelis are being heavy-handed. Neither are 'wrong', or else both are wrong. Palestinian ideology might be flawed, but I've hardly heard better sentiment come from the Israelis (or even from extra-national Jews).


Just to make my point/opinion clear. I do not blame Israel at all for there actions. They are essentially the good guys in that they show a lot of patience, and they don't purposefully target civilians.
My overall point to the pro-Israeli people here is this:
You are not solving anything with your current tactics. Your fighting with people who have nothing to lose, and I think the analogy is true at this national level as it is at the single person level. When your enemy has nothing to lose and wants your death, you really only have 2 options. Leave, put them in a prison for life, or kill them.

I think this situation is easily resolved if they just leave. The arguments about anti-semitism and a 2nd holocost are total bunk. They stay because of an irrational tie to a plot of desert and the belief everyone is out to get them.
Vietnam, Afghanistan, East Berlin, Ireland, India are all examples of the powerful nations (the grownup if you will) realizing he can't deal with the 'kiddies' anymore and its just better to leave them. I also take into consideration the following information: The British census of Palastine prior to the Jewish immigration.
Spoiler:
In 1920, the majority of the approximately 750,000 people in this multi-ethnic region were Arabic-speaking Muslims, including a Bedouin population (estimated at 103,331 at the time of the 1922 census[95] and concentrated in the Beersheba area and the region south and east of it), as well as Jews (who comprised some 11% of the total) and smaller groups of Druze, Syrians, Sudanese, Circassians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Hejazi Arabs.

1922- First British census of Palestine shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian. 1931- Second British census of Palestine shows total population of 1,035,154 with 73.4% Muslim, 16.9% Jewish and 8.6% Christian.. There were no further censuses but statistics were maintained by counting births, deaths and migration. Some components such as illegal immigration could only be estimated approximately. The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population "has risen to some 450,000" and was "approaching a third of the entire population of the country". In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

I think the palastinians have a strong claim that they 'were there first'. Sure we could go back 5000 years, but then it brings up the question of what about the decendants of Sodom and Gommorah do you want to bicker with them? And since the Palastinians, were first, insane, and unwilling to compromise... simplist answer is to leave the region and open a business in the USA or Canada.


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Re: Israel

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:57 pm UTC

I've got an actual response to your other points almost finished, but I want to quip something here:

Ixtellor wrote:I think the palastinians have a strong claim that they 'were there first'.


No, they weren't. Jews and Arabs alike have been living in Israel since the 'beginning'. So again, your argument for this comes down to "why don't you jews just leave?" and the counter is "why don't the palestinians just leave?" Except not quite, because Jews have a 'bigger' religious tie to the land (not that THAT is a reason in and of itself for their perpetuity in Israel)
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:33 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I think the palastinians have a strong claim that they 'were there first'. Sure we could go back 5000 years, but then it brings up the question of what about the decendants of Sodom and Gommorah do you want to bicker with them? And since the Palastinians, were first, insane, and unwilling to compromise... simplist answer is to leave the region and open a business in the USA or Canada.

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So what you're saying is fleeing the holocaust is illegal immigration? Avoiding a gas chamber makes you some kind of criminal? Lets be deadly serious about what you are talking about here. You are saying that hundreds of thousands of Jews had no legal right to immigrate to their homeland. Truth is, they had no legal right to go anywhere besides to their deaths.

Thousands DID try to go to the US/Canada. You need to learn your History. The US was nearly as anti-semetic an anywhere else. There's a famous story of a boat filled with German Jews fleeing the Holocaust (sorry, can't find the name). It stopped at every port it could to find a home. It stopped in England, the US, Canada, Palestine, and many other places. It eventually returned to Germany, nobody would take them in. When you have no home, you make one. This happened to millions of people at the end of WWII and it doesn't mean their claim is any less valid.
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Re: Israel

Postby Dream » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:16 pm UTC

mosc wrote:So what you're saying is fleeing the holocaust is illegal immigration? Avoiding a gas chamber makes you some kind of criminal? Lets be deadly serious about what you are talking about here. You are saying that hundreds of thousands of Jews had no legal right to immigrate to their homeland.

That is transparently mendacious. Israel did not exist when people were fleeing the gas chambers, no one could flee there. And he's not saying that Jews had no right to immigrate into their homeland, he's saying their homeland isn't Israel, because they never actually lived there.
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:21 pm UTC

Where would you propose they go instead? That's the obvious part you're leaving out. You can say my comments were leading but so were yours. If not there, than where? If they had no right to live there, than where did they have the right to live?
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Re: Israel

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:21 pm UTC

Dream wrote:And he's not saying that Jews had no right to immigrate into their homeland, he's saying their homeland isn't Israel, because they never actually lived there.


Jews never actually lived in Israel? That's news to me. So, you mean to say, before 1947, the area that is now Israel was populated ONLY by Arabs huh?
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:32 pm UTC

This is a common thing I hear on these forums and other places that I cannot fathom. You CANNOT separate the Holocaust and the creation of the modern state of Israel. They are intertwined. You had >8 million European Jews in 1930. You had ~100,000 in 1950. You had a world that was coming to grips with the depths of it's own capability for evil while still dehumanizing the survivors of the same atrocity. The simple fact is Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust. This notion that "Zionism" (usually improperly defined) or some completely unrelated thing is responsible and thus to blame for the current situation is absurd.

Israel exists because that boat went around the world and found no port. It exists because even after the war, Europe dehumanized the survivors. It exists because of what happened in Europe, not what happened between Jews and Palistinians. This isn't some 2000 year old ownership debate. This isn't about religious dogma. It's about the survival of the remaining Jews in this world who refused to roll over and die.
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Re: Israel

Postby natraj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:34 pm UTC

mosc wrote:This is a common thing I hear on these forums and other places that I cannot fathom. You CANNOT separate the Holocaust and the creation of the modern state of Israel. They are intertwined. You had >8 million European Jews in 1930. You had ~100,000 in 1950. You had a world that was coming to grips with the depths of it's own capability for evil while still dehumanizing the survivors of the same atrocity. The simple fact is Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust.


Except that people had been planning a Zionist state since long before the Holocaust, and used that as an excuse to put their plans into effect.
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:38 pm UTC

natraj wrote:Except that people had been planning a Zionist state since long before the Holocaust, and used that as an excuse to put their plans into effect.

Excuse. You just called the holocaust an excuse. Did you read your comments before posting them? I don't know what you want me to say to this. Cause, reason, explanation, purpose, those are all words I would use. Not excuse.

Where else did you want them to go? You're doing what I just talked about. Separating the Holocaust from it's role in the creation of Israel and replacing it with some kind of Zionist agenda. The only agenda at play here was survival.
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Re: Israel

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:55 pm UTC

So, because this topic is doomed to repeat itself again and again, I just wanted to repost Space_raptor's comment on page 1 of this thread, pertaining to who should leave, who has right to stay, etc:

Space_raptor wrote:This just isn't true. Now it is time for me to accuse you of listening to too much propaganda.
Palestine was never an "Arab land". It was a British mandate. Before that it was controlled by Turkey(the Ottoman Empire). Some Arabs may have a claim to some of the land there, but Jews have a legitimate one as well. There were hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the area. There were also Christians, and Druze, and small amounts of other people. The Arabs do not now, nor did they ever, have the sole claim to the land that Israel occupies now.

Israel absolutely has a right to exist. I would argue that so does an Arab Palestinian state. But the Arabs never had a sole claim to the region, and the Israelis did not start the war where they took new Palestinian lands. Any solution to the conflict, in my mind, would require borders drawn up that both sides accept. This is tough, because the settlers don't want to leave, and the Palestinians don't think Israel should exist at all.

[For those] advocating that 8 million Israelis should be turned into refugees now, 60 years after their country was created. Think about the consequences of removing millions of Israelis from their homes. We're talking war and chaos. The cruelty of that idea alone is shocking to me. It is not a practical or moral solution.

In the 1948 war, Israel took a lot of territory that wasn't originally theirs, and displaced a lot of Palestinians. That is where the refugees came from. There would not have been Palestinian refugees if it was not for the war. Israelis were not the aggressors in that war. The blame for Palestinian refugees is to be shared with Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.
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Re: Israel

Postby cypherspace » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:24 am UTC

mosc wrote:Where else did you want them to go? You're doing what I just talked about. Separating the Holocaust from it's role in the creation of Israel and replacing it with some kind of Zionist agenda. The only agenda at play here was survival.

No, it certainly wasn't. The agenda was the return to the ancestral homeland of the Jews. The Zionist movement was established in the late 1800s with that explicit aim and bought land in Palestine for that purpose. You're right in that you can't separate the Holocaust from its role in the creation of Israel, because without it the Western governments would never have mandated the large-scale land-grab and immigration that resulted in the immediate post-war years or the creation of the state itself in 1948. I would agree that "excuse" is not the right word - I doubt that the Jewish leaders were saying "Thank Yahweh! Now 6 million of us have been killed, we can go home!" That does not mean that the only agenda was survival. Just like you cannot separate the Holocaust from the creation of the state, you cannot separate Zionism from it.
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Re: Israel

Postby westcydr » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:47 am UTC

cypherspace wrote:
mosc wrote:Where else did you want them to go? You're doing what I just talked about. Separating the Holocaust from it's role in the creation of Israel and replacing it with some kind of Zionist agenda. The only agenda at play here was survival.

No, it certainly wasn't. The agenda was the return to the ancestral homeland of the Jews. The Zionist movement was established in the late 1800s with that explicit aim and bought land in Palestine for that purpose. You're right in that you can't separate the Holocaust from its role in the creation of Israel, because without it the Western governments would never have mandated the large-scale land-grab and immigration that resulted in the immediate post-war years or the creation of the state itself in 1948. I would agree that "excuse" is not the right word - I doubt that the Jewish leaders were saying "Thank Yahweh! Now 6 million of us have been killed, we can go home!" That does not mean that the only agenda was survival. Just like you cannot separate the Holocaust from the creation of the state, you cannot separate Zionism from it.

Incidentally, the earliest modern push for a Jewish state in the land of Israel came from US Christian missionaries to the region, in the early-mid 1800's. Jews did not see this as necessary at that time, by and large, and the missionaries failed at that goal, as well as a converting the locals.
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Re: Israel

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I've got an actual response to your other points almost finished, but I want to quip something here:

Ixtellor wrote:I think the palastinians have a strong claim that they 'were there first'.


No, they weren't. Jews and Arabs alike have been living in Israel since the 'beginning'. So again, your argument for this comes down to "why don't you jews just leave?" and the counter is "why don't the palestinians just leave?" Except not quite, because Jews have a 'bigger' religious tie to the land (not that THAT is a reason in and of itself for their perpetuity in Israel)


I already linked the census data regarding the region. For several generations prior to the creation of Israel, Arab-Muslims made up the vast majority. At one point Jews only made up 2% of the population. So since, it would be silly to go back 5000 years and look at majorities, in the modern era, there is no question that the Muslims were the majority there.

You keep asking me "why don't the palestinians leave?" and I keep answering. But I want to make it 100% clear so we can settle it.

1) The Palestinians are a group of crazed, irrational, illogical, slightly evil, uneducated, poor, hopeless people that would rather throw a rock at a tank in hopes of scratching the paint, EVEN if it means their death, than give you 1 inch of compromise.

Being that the Israelis are rational, it would seem you might be able to conclude this is a hopless fight. How do you beat an enemy with total hatred and no hope?

Again its just like the Russians in Afghanistan and the Americans in Vietnam. We can't win there because they hate us and they want us out PERIOD.


2) The palestinians can't move because no one wants them. We sure as fuck don't want that group of psychos here in America. But guess what... we do want you jews. We view you as an economic boom and valuble citizens who make America a better place. (And don't start with the antisemitism rant, because blacks and hispanics have it 10000% worse, but they are here making a peaceful existance)

mosc wrote:So what you're saying is fleeing the holocaust is illegal immigration?


I never came close to saying that.
I think the Jews did the most rational thing they could. They packed their bags and moved away from people who hate them. (Do you see the logic of packing your bags and moving away from people that hate you? Pretty damn smart.)

mosc wrote:Thousands DID try to go to the US/Canada. You need to learn your History. The US was nearly as anti-semetic an anywhere else.


You are correct. Also, America used to have slaves, deny women the vote, lock up Japanese-Americans without due process, etc etc, the list goes on and on.

But we aren't talking about then, we are talking about NOW.

I am suggesting you pack your bags and move away from people that hate you. You know... like after the holocost. Move to my neighborhood and plant some shrubs.

What is soo freaking horrible about the idea of living in peace in a country that respects religous diversity and has a THRIVING jewish community.

Dream wrote:And he's not saying that Jews had no right to immigrate into their homeland, he's saying their homeland isn't Israel, because they never actually lived there.
.


1) I prefer to discuss the hear and now as opposed to history. (What if the Sodomites... blah blah blah)
2) Clearly Jews lived in Israel and it was where Jewish society grew from nothing. But that is ANCIENT history, in more modern history Jews made up a very small % of the region, and it wasn't untill the British started moving them there around 1900 that they even came close to reaching the 30% number. (Which is still a minority) So IMHO, it really was a kind of artificial 'homeland'.


I have not brought up the religious ties to the region in this entire thread.
I have failed to do so for 2 reasons.
1) I am agnositic with heavy leanings towards aethism. And believe all religion is silly and frequently harmful.
2) You can still practice your religion without occupying Jeresulum. Not living there does not diminish your faith.
Therefore, I see it as irrelevant to the main problem of murder, death, and hatred.
(Par for the course when it comes to religion IMHO)


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Re: Israel

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

As if I needed another opportunity to lock this thread for a mandated cool down period.


Edit: And that should do for now. Unlocked.

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Re: Israel

Postby Sharlos » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

Arguing about whether Israel should exist or not is a pointless venture, it does exist, and no one is going to be able to get rid of it anytime soon.

Israel was attacked first, yes, so I don't think many would blame them for those territories they aquired in that war.
But palestinans have just as much right to a Palestinian state as the jews do.

People who are raving about how they only want the jews dead and that they will not comprimise are exaggerating if not outright lying. Both sides of this conflict are in the wrong, nether side is going to be able to control all the land between the mediterranian and the dead sea (if that's the correct body of water I'm thinking of).

My biggest issue is that Israel rushed into gaza killing hundreds of people, many of them civilians, over a few rockets.

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Re: Israel

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:18 pm UTC

Sharlos wrote:My biggest issue is that Israel rushed into gaza killing hundreds of people, many of them civilians, over a few rockets.


There's a threadwith 14 pages of back and forth about this purported 'rushing' and 'few rockets'.

Indeed. The N&A thread is going strong and there's no reason to bring the shit flinging into SB, too.

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Re: Israel

Postby BlackSails » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:37 pm UTC

Sharlos wrote:People who are raving about how they only want the jews dead and that they will not comprimise are exaggerating if not outright lying. Both sides of this conflict are in the wrong, nether side is going to be able to control all the land between the mediterranian and the dead sea (if that's the correct body of water I'm thinking of).


Nobody (reasonable) says that all the palestinians want to kill all the jews. But let me quote some bits from the Hamas Charter:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"


This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.


The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.


The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?


The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.


You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.


World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.


Note: If you dont know what they are, the protocols of the elders of Zion are on wikipedia.

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Re: Israel

Postby Sharlos » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:20 am UTC

Yes, the Hamas are fairly (extremley?) extreme. But I'm pretty sure Hamas aren't in control of all Palestinians, and even if they were, attacking them isn't going to resolve much in the long term.

Both Lisrael and the Palestinians are there, and I doubt either are going to be able to obliterate the other. (Although the Palestinians may be able to out populate them soon enough) Israel has the right to defend its people/nation but the Palestinians also have a right to be there, fighting like this is only going to breed more resentment maknig any sort of peace all the more difficult. Both sides are going to have to comprimise in the end.

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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:23 pm UTC

Hamas is in control of Gaza. Are you seriously disputing that? 1) they're the only thing resembling a military in the area. 2) they won the election.
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Re: Israel

Postby idontknow4231 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Honestly, the section of the debate involving the actaul destruction of the state of Israel is pointless. It is not possible, in any way. For one thing, many, most, if not all of the Israeli people would rather die than move, so genocide is the only option if they have to leave.

Second, let us look at logistics. Again, practically impossible. If even half the people in Israel wished to leave, which means they would comply with a removal plan and not resist, you are talking about 3.55 million people! Now, cost, who is going to pay for this? Will you force the Israelis to pay? Now you are adding even more to their sentence, beyond just removal.

Numbers time. (Numbers to this special, open land in Uganda)
AIRFARE (Yes not the cheapest, but fastest for sure)
These are the first results I got, but to get one adult from Tel Aviv to Cairo, it is $300. Then, to get from Cairo to Nairobi, Kenya, the closest EygptAir had to Uganda, was $400. So, 3.5M * $700 dollars is roughly 2.45 billion dollars.
Sources:
https://wftc2.e-travel.com/plnext/egyptAir/Fare.action;jsessionid=nFYJJLhXwTzt28HFlcnsFKp2yQjz20kJsdb4RcfQCWSk1z8z05CK!-1781573899!-1939447270
http://booking.elal.co.il/newBooking/amadeus.jsp (I know these are probably not the cheapest commercial flights, by any means, but they are a measure)

This is not including ground transport once in Kenya. Who is willing to pay this?

Transport solely on the ground, or by sea is most likely cheaper, but raises many other issues. Time for one thing, do they really deserve the 9 days and 21 hours that the shortest sea route takes, or the danger it places them in? Danger, and a much longer and somewhat incalculable time, can be argued for travel by ground, so my question is, do you believe the Israelis are deserving of these trials? 3.55 million people, and that's only if half agree, odds are you would have to kill the rest.

If you would like to take off on my numbers for Arabs who would be accepted in the new state, what ever it's name, the cost for the most humane method of transport, airfare, is still over 2 billion.

I apologize if my argument is fragmented or unclear, I'm having difficulty breaking out of my English class's defined limitations.

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Re: Israel

Postby Weezer » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:41 am UTC

I agree with the people that are saying that the state of Israel shouldn't have been created in the way that it was but we can't just ship all the Jews off to Africa so we have to deal with the situation as it is now.
The Palestinian conflict is a sticky situation to say the least and I think that ideally the best way to fix the problem would be to convince both the Jews and the Palestinians to create a Palestinian state made up of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, but seeing how stubborn the two parties involved are such a deal would never be acceptable to either side. I think that the best practical solution is to just let the two factions war and fight until the situation is resolved. There is no real reason for any foreign power to become directly involved into what is a purely internal conflict. To do so would impinge on the sovereignty of both the state of Israel and on whatever sovereignty the Palestinians believe that they should/do possess. Also there is no way for a foreign power to involve itself in said conflict without escalating the conflict in that area and inciting even more hatred from the whole Islamic world towards the west, leading to more religious extremism and thus more violence in the Middle East as a whole. Maybe a foreign power could involve itself in a conflict in Israel if a conventional war broke out between Israel and the surrounding Arab countries, especially if it seemed that Israel would end up losing. A good reason for doing this would be to prevent Israel from initiating its rumored "Samson Option", a plan to nuke a number of countries surrounding it, possibly some European countries if Israel was ever close to destruction.
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:40 pm UTC

Weezer wrote:I agree with the people that are saying that the state of Israel shouldn't have been created in the way that it was...
Please elaborate on this or retract it. As I have explained, it was formed because of 8.8 million Jews living in Europe before WWII needing to live somewhere other than Eastern Europe during the period of 1939-1945. Do you seriously dispute the need to live elsewhere for Jews during that time?
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Re: Israel

Postby naeren » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:48 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Jews never actually lived in Israel? That's news to me. So, you mean to say, before 1947, the area that is now Israel was populated ONLY by Arabs huh?

I don't think he meant that to be taken so pedantically, but Palestine was occupied primarily by Arabs for more than 1000 (uninterrupted) years up until 1948. There were a couple times before that where the Jews controlled most of what was Palestine, but those instances were relatively short-lived. Early Israelites were settlers and had to conquer the area's inhabitants to take control of their "homeland". The only thing that made it their homeland was some religious idea that proclaimed the area was promised to them.

mosc wrote:Please elaborate on this or retract it. As I have explained, it was formed because of 8.8 million Jews living in Europe before WWII needing to live somewhere other than Eastern Europe during the period of 1939-1945. Do you seriously dispute the need to live elsewhere for Jews during that time?

Sorry, but this is a false dichotomy. You can state that Israel could have been done differently without walking around saying Jews were just fine where they were at.

8.8 million is also the pre-war population, so that is a misleading figure. An estimated 6 million died, so around 2.8 million survived. The only figure I could find for those that were displaced (fleeing, looking for somewhere to live) is 1.2 million. Palestine took about half, and this eventually lead to their nation falling apart.

I'm mostly curious about Palestine's apparent social burden that still survives today, that even though they sheltered so many they should still have had room for more. Where was everyone else? The United States kept going on about how countries needed to help shelter these refugees, and even they didn't accept many (and still managed to snag second place with the immigration numbers). Is it because after a thousand years of having dominated the area, people believed the Arabs should just have moved out because the Jews have a religious book that says their God promised the area to them?

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Re: Israel

Postby Dream » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:53 am UTC

mosc wrote:As I have explained, it was formed because of 8.8 million Jews living in Europe before WWII needing to live somewhere other than Eastern Europe during the period of 1939-1945. Do you seriously dispute the need to live elsewhere for Jews during that time?


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Let's get this straight. Hitler is dead. He died, along with the Nazi genocide machine in 1945. He was dead in 1948, and was dead for the entire rest of the history of Israel. So you can't justify the MANNER OF ISRAEL'S CREATION based on his previous existence and crimes. That Jews couldn't be expected to stay in the Europe that tried to exterminate them is obvious. It does not follow from that that they could just up and crate a state at gunpoint anywhere they pleased. It does not follow from that that even a single Palestinian should have lost their home to Israel's creation.

Weezer wasn't commenting on the existence of Israel, but on the manner of its creation. You just demanded he acknowledge the Nazi genocide or retract his statement. That is ridiculous.
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Re: Israel

Postby VorpalSword » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:06 am UTC

What is particularly wrong with the manner of Israel's creation? I think everyone can agree that for a large number, staying in Europe after WWII wasn't an option. nevertheless, there weren't any countries that really wanted 1+ million refugees. The British ruled Palestine at the time and offered it (mostly because of religious reasons true, but what would have stopped similar problems from occuring in Africa if they choose Uganda instead?). The U.N. voted to establish an new country there (and correct me if wrong, but I was under the impression a two-state solution was on the table from the beginning), when the outbreak of war with the arabs started the conflicts going on their today. While it may not have worked out perfectly, what other options would you prefer over the land being given by the country in charge and accepted by the leading world governments?

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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:57 am UTC

Exactly. Unless you propose some other solution for over a million holocaust survivors OTHER than the state of Israel, you have failed to disassociate the existence of the state of Israel from the holocaust. It's that simple. 8.8 million in 1939, about 2.8 million survivors (in one fashion or another) and about a million of em who could not get into any other country. The US, for example, refused to allow large scale immigration from eastern europe from the 1920s until long after WWII (even though about a million managed to get to Brooklyn anyway). There were no other options. Death or Israel, they chose Israel. Any other analysis of the foundation of the state of Israel is mostly bullshit. This "oh woe is me" crap about Palestinians loosing their homes is also bullshit. Jews arrived because they had nowhere else to go. The Arab community didn't want them there anymore than Nazi's wanted them in Europe but that's not the point. It wasn't the Palistinian's choice to make.

The 8.8 million number is the total prior to WWII. Many left before the war was over. 1.2 "displaced" is a nice way of saying 1.2 that couldn't get papers to be anywhere legally. About 1.6 million did find some semi-legal means of Immigration. The US had several million Jews at the outbreak of WWII and many worked for years to save as many as they could. Some Jews even legally immigrated to Palestine during the war although far more were there as "displaced". Some stayed in eastern Europe and tried to start anew. If you want a gut wrenching story, several thousand survivors of Auschwitz-Birkenau formed a town less than a mile from the camp. They stayed there for several years until growing pressure from surrounding towns caused them all to up and move to the then established state of Israel. You can go there and see the synagogue they built in the 1940s to this day. The amount of antisemitism they encountered mere yards from the camp sickens me more than almost anything else. These people had no option to remain. It was simply impossible. The eastern block did not promote Holocaust education or even accept that it had happened.

naeren wrote:Is it because after a thousand years of having dominated the area, people believed the Arabs should just have moved out because the Jews have a religious book that says their God promised the area to them?
This has VERY little to do with it. Really it does. Where would you go if I took everything you own even your clothes and killed your parents, your grandparents, your cousins, and everyone in your town? You'd probably go to a distant relative's place. Maybe one who was already living somewhere. Hmm, where did JEWS have RELATIVES outside of Europe? You guessed it. More actually said "the USA" than "Israel" but not all could get in. Those that didn't have immediate family in the US found it particularly hard to enter.
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Re: Israel

Postby Weezer » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:29 am UTC

I don't dispute that Jews have a right to live in Israel, I just think that they shouldn't have taken the UN resolution that partitioned Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. I disagree with this plan because it gave the Jews, who hadn't lived there in great numbers for over 1000 years, control over the major part of what should have been an Arab state. I believe that it should have stayed Arab because the Arabs were the people in residence for the longest continuous period, even if you include the time before the Diaspora. I think the Jews should have been allowed to enter the state of Palestine but in equal footing as the Arabs who were currently in residence, not like a group of prodigal sons returning to their homeland. It also should have been ensured that the Palestinians had the same amount of control over the government as the newcomers to ensure that they did not become marginalized or discriminated against.

While I disagree with the original plan of splitting the land in Palestine between the Jews and the Palestinians I think that it is even worse what actually happened. Through a number of wars and acts of aggression on both sides Israel pretty much absorbed all of the land that remained in the Palestinian's hands shortly after the Jewish declaration of independence. This defeated the whole purpose of splitting the land and gave Israel control over what shouldn't have been theirs even if the UN plan was fair, which it wasn't.

Also if the Jews just wanted to find a place to live why couldn't they live in a Palestine that remained in Arab control, they had no especial right to the land aside from a holy text which shouldn't have any bearing on the distribution of land in modern times.
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Re: Israel

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:16 am UTC

Weezer wrote:Also if the Jews just wanted to find a place to live why couldn't they live in a Palestine that remained in Arab control


Because theres a history of violence between the Jews and Arabs that live there that predates WWII.

Weezer wrote:Through a number of wars and acts of aggression on both sides Israel pretty much absorbed all of the land that remained in the Palestinian's hands shortly after the Jewish declaration of independence.


That's certainly one way of saying it. Another would be "After successfully preventing their extermination at the hands of surrounding nations, the new Israeli's found themselves with a displaced population despite being surrounded by countries populated by those very peoples. Also, a bunch of land they promptly traded back."

naeren wrote:I don't think he meant that to be taken so pedantically, but Palestine was occupied primarily by Arabs for more than 1000 (uninterrupted) years up until 1948. [snip] Early Israelites were settlers and had to conquer the area's inhabitants to take control of their "homeland". The only thing that made it their homeland was some religious idea that proclaimed the area was promised to them.


Oh yeah? Citation? Like, whats the population breakdown of 'primarily Arab'?
The argument over whose entitled the land is pretty bunk. No one who wants to live there is a historical stranger to the land, and stamping your feet and shouting with the equivalent of "It was mine first!" isn't going to solve or prove anything.
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Re: Israel

Postby westcydr » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:17 am UTC

Weezer wrote:I don't dispute that Jews have a right to live in Israel, I just think that they shouldn't have taken the UN resolution that partitioned Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. I disagree with this plan because it gave the Jews, who hadn't lived there in great numbers for over 1000 years, control over the major part of what should have been an Arab state. I believe that it should have stayed Arab because the Arabs were the people in residence for the longest continuous period, even if you include the time before the Diaspora. I think the Jews should have been allowed to enter the state of Palestine but in equal footing as the Arabs who were currently in residence, not like a group of prodigal sons returning to their homeland. It also should have been ensured that the Palestinians had the same amount of control over the government as the newcomers to ensure that they did not become marginalized or discriminated against.

While I disagree with the original plan of splitting the land in Palestine between the Jews and the Palestinians I think that it is even worse what actually happened. Through a number of wars and acts of aggression on both sides Israel pretty much absorbed all of the land that remained in the Palestinian's hands shortly after the Jewish declaration of independence. This defeated the whole purpose of splitting the land and gave Israel control over what shouldn't have been theirs even if the UN plan was fair, which it wasn't.

Also if the Jews just wanted to find a place to live why couldn't they live in a Palestine that remained in Arab control, they had no especial right to the land aside from a holy text which shouldn't have any bearing on the distribution of land in modern times.
Sorry, raising the "bulls--t" flag, the "Palestine Mandate" included what is now known as Jordan, so the "Jewish State" was NOT the majority of the land, not even close. Even the UN schools that can't keep track of their kids, or the location of their buildings in Gaza ("Oh, you mean THAT school building? Yeah, it never got hit. Umm, come to think of it, all of our schools are still here.. now how could we have missed THAT?") teach that the Palestine Mandate included Jordan.
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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

In 1945, there was no such thing as a "palistinian". I think people forget that. There were arabs living in palestine and most of them in 1948 lived in Jordan. Jordan controlled not just it's current territory but also the west bank. Similarly, the golan was controlled by syria and gaza was controlled by egypt.

I would contest that the MAIN reason these areas are no longer part of their intended arabic neighbors is because the people in them, the "palistinians", never got along with the other muslims in the surrounding countries. The 6 day war was essentially a pull out by Jordan of the entire west bank. Only a few fanatics fought for Jerusalem itself. The military simply up and left happy to be rid of the palistinian problem and leave it to Israel. Israel is trying to give them their own country too don't forget but the UN solution was for the palistinians to live with their current muslim neighbors.
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Re: Israel

Postby naeren » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:54 pm UTC

mosc wrote:This has VERY little to do with it. Really it does. Where would you go if I took everything you own even your clothes and killed your parents, your grandparents, your cousins, and everyone in your town? You'd probably go to a distant relative's place. Maybe one who was already living somewhere. Hmm, where did JEWS have RELATIVES outside of Europe? You guessed it. More actually said "the USA" than "Israel" but not all could get in. Those that didn't have immediate family in the US found it particularly hard to enter.

That makes sense, but I was mostly wondering about the views and opinions of the rest of the world, not the desires of the persecuted. If you mean to say that the rest of the world believed it only right they be allowed into the land "God promised them", that's a little different. Considering the scale, this would have been roughly equivalent of just handing over control of the land and everyone expected them to sit down, shut up and not have a problem with that.

Izawwlgood wrote:Oh yeah? Citation? Like, whats the population breakdown of 'primarily Arab'?
The argument over whose entitled the land is pretty bunk. No one who wants to live there is a historical stranger to the land, and stamping your feet and shouting with the equivalent of "It was mine first!" isn't going to solve or prove anything.

By "primarily", I mean over 50%. Censuses taken during the Ottoman Empire (19th and early 20th century) were very inaccurate for both Arabs and Jews, so while you have to take them with a grain of salt, they did show Arabs as the overwhelming majority and this is generally accepted.
It's believed that the Jewish population ranged from 5-15% before the British Mandate. The censuses taken in 1922 and 1931 were a lot more accurate, but they may also have undercounted both sides. Still, by 1946, the Jewish population was 35% and rising.

Also, I agree with your view that the argument over entitlement is absurd. The only thing that really matters is who is presently in control of the land. Imagine if ALL the lines were redrawn back to where they were a thousand years ago.

Sources:
The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948
Demographics of Historic Palestine Prior to 1948

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Re: Israel

Postby mosc » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:40 pm UTC

naeren wrote:It's believed that the Jewish population ranged from 5-15% before the British Mandate. The censuses taken in 1922 and 1931 were a lot more accurate, but they may also have undercounted both sides. Still, by 1946, the Jewish population was 35% and rising.

The british mandate covered not just modern day Israel but also Jordan. There are more Muslims in Jordan than Israel. Also, I AGAIN want to point out that the west bank is where a majority of Palistinians live and it was part of Jordan and would still be part of Jordan if Jordan wanted. They don't want to deal with the west bank anymore than Israel does. Please keep that in mind.
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Re: Israel

Postby naeren » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:29 am UTC

mosc wrote:The british mandate covered not just modern day Israel but also Jordan. There are more Muslims in Jordan than Israel. Also, I AGAIN want to point out that the west bank is where a majority of Palistinians live and it was part of Jordan and would still be part of Jordan if Jordan wanted. They don't want to deal with the west bank anymore than Israel does. Please keep that in mind.

The censuses were only concerned with Palestine (what is currently Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). You're correct, the British Mandate set aside more than just Palestine. This was all past the Jordan river, was called Transjordan and was set up as an autonomous state. However, the census reports did not include this area, so I'm not sure where you're going.

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Re: Israel

Postby westcydr » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:51 am UTC

naeren wrote:
mosc wrote:The british mandate covered not just modern day Israel but also Jordan. There are more Muslims in Jordan than Israel. Also, I AGAIN want to point out that the west bank is where a majority of Palistinians live and it was part of Jordan and would still be part of Jordan if Jordan wanted. They don't want to deal with the west bank anymore than Israel does. Please keep that in mind.

The censuses were only concerned with Palestine (what is currently Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). You're correct, the British Mandate set aside more than just Palestine. This was all past the Jordan river, was called Transjordan and was set up as an autonomous state. However, the census reports did not include this area, so I'm not sure where you're going.

I don't know where you are getting your borders for Trans-Jordan, since the name even indicates it included the west and east banks..
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Re: Israel

Postby naeren » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:09 pm UTC

westcydr wrote:I don't know where you are getting your borders for Trans-Jordan, since the name even indicates it included the west and east banks..

Transjordan included everything east of the Jordan river, as its name correctly implies (trans: across, past; Jordan: Jordan river). The point of reference being from the Mediterranean, as is typical for the area.


Source:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat ... jordan.php
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Re: Israel

Postby yoni45 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:13 pm UTC

westcydr wrote:Sorry, raising the "bulls--t" flag, the "Palestine Mandate" included what is now known as Jordan, so the "Jewish State" was NOT the majority of the land, not even close. Even the UN schools that can't keep track of their kids, or the location of their buildings in Gaza ("Oh, you mean THAT school building? Yeah, it never got hit. Umm, come to think of it, all of our schools are still here.. now how could we have missed THAT?") teach that the Palestine Mandate included Jordan.


The Jewish state wasn't the majority of the region of Palestine originally discussed, but it *was* a bit more than half the land divided by the Partition Plan. Most arguments regarding population only deal with the populace within the area west of the Jordan, so that's largely appropriate (depending on the scope of the argument, of course).

Weezer wrote:...I disagree with this plan because it gave the Jews, who hadn't lived there in great numbers for over 1000 years, control over the major part of what should have been an Arab state...


Why should it have been an 'Arab' state? As noted, arguments based on population figures "back then" are largely useless. At the time of partition, there was a significant Jewish presence in the region that was largely incompatible with the Arab populace. Jews did end up getting a bit more than half of the land by the plan, but the vast majority of that land also happened to be made up of the largely desolate Negev desert, while pretty much all of the near-half that was to go to the Arab state was not.

It's also worth noting that the Arabs didn't reject the partition plan on the basis of the actual partition, but on the basis of the existence of a Jewish state. There was no attempt to negotiate, to adjust, or anything. The Peel commission of 1937 proposed a state that looks like it was about 75% Arab ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission ), and the Arabs rejected that just as much. Granted, the population exchange recommendation was questionable, but again, that's something that's more than negotiable ("...The Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, testified in front of the commission, opposing any partition of Arab lands with the Jews...")...
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Re: Israel

Postby Weezer » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:47 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Why should it have been an 'Arab' state? As noted, arguments based on population figures "back then" are largely useless. At the time of partition, there was a significant Jewish presence in the region that was largely incompatible with the Arab populace.


By the same argument why should it have been a Jewish state? I think that it was not up to any international group or foreign power to decide what would happen to Palestine, when the British Mandate was up they should have pulled out and let what would happen happen. Any Jews who moved there knew that they were moving to an area hostile to there presence and thus have no right to any special consideration and if the Arabs weren't strong enough to maintain control over their land themselves then they would deserve to lose it. What gives any of the countries involved in the partition plan the right to in anyway control the distribution of power or the creation of states in the Palestinian Mandate?
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Re: Israel

Postby yoni45 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:37 am UTC

Weezer wrote:By the same argument why should it have been a Jewish state?


I never said it should, not exclusively as you imply. That's why partition made sense - there are two groups with extensive differences in their desires for self determination. Hence, two states.


Weezer wrote:I think that it was not up to any international group or foreign power to decide what would happen to Palestine, when the British Mandate was up they should have pulled out and let what would happen happen...if the Arabs weren't strong enough to maintain control over their land themselves then they would deserve to lose it.


Actually, that's exactly what happened. The partition plan was never actually implemented; the British pulled out unilaterally, and as you say, "what would happen happen[ed]"...

Weezer wrote:What gives any of the countries involved in the partition plan the right to in anyway control the distribution of power or the creation of states in the Palestinian Mandate?


I don't think they actually need such a specific right. States largely already have the right to support whomever they wish to support. Although that's largely a moot point, since 'other' states never actually supported Israel as far as 'distribution of power' is concerned...
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Re: Israel

Postby lesliesage » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:54 pm UTC

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Re: Israel

Postby yelly » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I am suggesting you pack your bags and move away from people that hate you. You know... like after the holocost. Move to my neighborhood and plant some shrubs.

I am sorry I am pulling up an argument from further up the page, but no one has addressed this one.
Are you really saying this? Along you lines of reasoning, if Al-Qaida (not sure about the spelling, transliterating from the arabic as best I can) pull off a few more major attacks in the US, you would get up and leave? I don't care how much the US would be happy to have me and how little antisemitism you've got over there, I was born here, I'm growing up here, and I ain't going nowhere. Getting up and leaving when things get rough is usually a pretty bad move, let alone a very non-Jewish way to do things.
Besides that, I don't really care how irrational you think I am being, but I am tied to this land. My nation was born and formed here (or on the way here) and for millennia it has been an inseparable part of our culture and faith. My great-great-great...-grandparents would conclude their festive Passover meal by saying "next year in the built Jerusalem", and now I am here. When they got married they said "if I shall forget Jerusalem, may I forget my right hand", and now I am here. That is not something I can just get up and leave, and I wish you too one day could experience a situation as unbelievable as this.

Weezer wrote:Also if the Jews just wanted to find a place to live why couldn't they live in a Palestine that remained in Arab control, they had no especial right to the land aside from a holy text which shouldn't have any bearing on the distribution of land in modern times.

Umm, that's simply not true. I'm not going to site any numbers (I'm sure they've already appeared multiple times in this thread), but there was already a rather-real Jewish population in Israel before 1947. There where purely Jewish cities (Tel-Aviv, Petah-Tikva, the Kibutzim) all over the land that had a thriving economy and strong communities, as well as mostly Jewish pre-existing cities (mainly Jerusalem), there was organised Jewish leadership with all of a state's government bodies and all in all, there was some serious Jewish life going on in Israel. So, why would the Arabs have any more right to the land than the Jews? It's not as if control was taken away from them, they never had it to begin with. How could you justify putting Tel-Aviv in an Arab state (of course, this is true of many other places as well, it's just the most outstanding example)?
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