December 21st 2012

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Voice of reason
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December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

hello i have just made this account and would like to present this serious topic to the board.

on december 21 2012 there are a few astronomical anomalies happening around the same time.
i would like some scientific opinions and facts as to what these event could mean for life on earth. i have no doubt in my mind that something will happen i just want to understand and except what it may mean for the human population and climate of our earth. i do not want anyone to panic or to jump to conclusions. this happened with y2k and thousands of people (maybe more) paniced and almost created chaos. The mayans were scientific genuises and their calendar is more accurate than our modern day clalendar that we have to add a leap year every four years. the mayans were great with astronomy and have been suprisingly accurate with eclipses and other astronomical events. why did they stop their calendar on this date with all these events happening.
1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that
2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth
3. shortest day of the year winter equinox
and there are more i just can't rember them right now please reply and tell me what all of this could mean and if there is anything else i forgot to mention.

thank you

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Re: december 21 2012

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:28 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:hello i have just made this account and would like to present this serious topic to the board.

on december 21 2012 there are a few astronomical anomalies happening around the same time.
i would like some scientific opinions and facts as to what these event could mean for life on earth. i have no doubt in my mind that something will happen i just want to understand and except what it may mean for the human population and climate of our earth. i do not want anyone to panic or to jump to conclusions. this happened with y2k and thousands of people (maybe more) paniced and almost created chaos. The mayans were scientific genuises and their calendar is more accurate than our modern day clalendar that we have to add a leap year every four years. the mayans were great with astronomy and have been suprisingly accurate with eclipses and other astronomical events. why did they stop their calendar on this date with all these events happening.
1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that
2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth
3. shortest day of the year winter equinox
and there are more i just can't rember them right now please reply and tell me what all of this could mean and if there is anything else i forgot to mention.
Taking your points even slightly seriously...

1. Aligns in relation to what? I mean, Sol is in alignment with the center of the Milky Way right now, from a certain standpoint. It's also in alignment with the Andromeda galaxy. I suppose what I'm saying is, without a frame of reference, two objects are always in alignment with one another.
2. Do you even know what Nibiru is? Here's the short version of the Nibiru Collision Hypotheses... a woman got word from fucking Space Aliens that we're all gonna die. And if Space Aliens talking to a random woman doesn't make a reliable source, I don't know what does. Telescopes, maybe?
3. The shortest day is the solstice. The Equinox is when the day and night are the same length. Hence the big fricken "Equal" right in the name.

Now, back to the Mayans. Relative to their peers, they were scientific geniuses. Washing your hands regularly to ward off illness made you a scientific genius in that time. As for their calendar....

What happens after December 31st? Do we all die in a horrific accident of fire and chaos as the world comes to a screaming end or... do we just start the calendar over? What happens a minute after 11:59pm? Or more accurately, 12:59am? Since the clock doesn't have a 13 on it, does that mean time stops?

The Mayans had a very long calendar with very long cycles built in to it. Sometime in 2012 is when one of these cycles ends, which is about as important as March turning in to April. It's nifty, but it doesn't actually mean a damned thing.*


For my next point.. Download Firefox and install a goddamn dictionary to fix your spelling. It's how I do it. Which is also why I occasionally have fucked up words in the middle of my paragraphs for no reason... because I don't proofread. Which will be my downfall eventually.
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Re: december 21 2012

Postby The EGE » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:56 am UTC

I got ninja'd, but here goes anyway:

To the original poster, the ironically named 'voice of reason' :

You are wrong. You are not just wrong; you are wrong at any conceivable scale of resolution, and zooming in on any part of your worldview finds beliefs as wrong as your entire worldview. You are also a troll, and trolls get dealt with rather strongly here.

First, your claims of three 'astronomical anomalies':

voice of reason wrote:1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that


I'm assuming you mean 'galactic center', unless there's some newfangled term called a 'gality'.

You can't have an alignment with two points, unless they are in the exact same place, and that is clearly impossible as the sun is currently 38,000 light years (2.23 × 1017 miles) away from the center of the galaxy, that would require the sun to suddenly defy basic physical laws and plunge towards the galactic center at 4 x 1012 m/s, which is equal to 13300 times the speed of light.

Even if we were to take a leap and accept that the third point of said 'alignment' is the earth, there is still no alignment on December 21, 2012. A quick check of a celestial atlas (I used the SkyAtlas 2000.0, second edition) shows this clearly. Although the ecliptic - the path of the sun, as seen from earth - does come close to the direction of the galactic center, they do not meet. The ecliptic does not reach further than 22.3 degrees south declination, while the galactic center is at around 29.5 degrees south declination. In addition, the galactic center is at 17.8 hours right ascension rather than the 18 hours where the sun is on the 21st, so the sun's closest approach to the direction of the galactic center is in fact around December 16th.

Furthermore, the sun reaches that exact point on the same day every year; there is nothing unique about 2012 in that respect.

On to your second 'anomaly':

voice of reason wrote:2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth


There's no such thing as 'Nibiru'. It's as simple as that. Our ability to detect objects, both visually and by gravitational effects, is astrounding. We can detect main-belt asteroids and Jovian moons down to the sub-kilometer size, and brown dwarves (what Nibiru is often claimed to be) can be detected up to several dozen light years away. Any brown dwarf close enough to threaten Earth would be one of the brightest objects in the night sky and its gravitation effects would be well-studied and well-published.

And the third:

voice of reason wrote:3. shortest day of the year winter equinox


The equinoxes are March and September 21st when the equator experiences equal lengths of day and night. December 21st or thereabouts is the winter solstice, not an equinox. We have two equinoxes every year; as far as I've noted the world has not yet ended.

And, unless you're once again on the equator, it isn't even always the shortest day of the year. IIRC, here (41 N) it's a few days before or after.

Now that your 'astronomical anomalies' are nothing to write home about, let's take a closer look at the rest of your diatrabe.

voice of reason wrote:i would like some scientific opinions and facts as to what these event could mean for life on earth.


As requested. The truth is, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen. Life on earth will continue as normal, except for a bunch of people like you waking up the next day and saying "Dammit, nothing happened" while the rest of us laugh at your profound moronity.

voice of reason wrote:i have no doubt in my mind that something will happen i just want to understand and except what it may mean for the human population and climate of our earth.


Let me repeat. Nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen. The human population will be approximately 7 billion (7,000,000,000) people and will grow by approximately 200,000 on the 21st. The climate will continue slowly changing due to human carbon dioxide emissions and other factors.

voice of reason wrote:i do not want anyone to panic or to jump to conclusions. this happened with y2k and thousands of people (maybe more) paniced and almost created chaos.


You seem to be the only one here jumping to conclusions. The predictions of chaos for Y2K were far worse than what little actually happened, and the entire reason for Y2K, which was a mostly obsolete programming bug, was that people like you didn't listen to the facts.

voice of reason wrote:The mayans were scientific genuises and their calendar is more accurate than our modern day clalendar that we have to add a leap year every four years.


Um, no. They were pretty smart, but both European and Chinese inventors were way ahead of them. Our calender does not have leap days because it is inaccurate, it has them because leap days are the best way to compensate for the unavoidable fact that the earth's period of revolution is not an integer multiple of its period of rotation. The length of the year is 365.2425 days; the leap days adjust the average length of a calender year to 365.24 days which is as accurate as we need for about the next 10,000 years.

voice of reason wrote:mayans were great with astronomy and have been suprisingly accurate with eclipses and other astronomical events. why did they stop their calendar on this date with all these events happening.


Every ancient society and their mothers predicted eclipses and whatnot. The mayans were more noted for their Venusian observations and predictions, which were not so much a sophisticated mathematical model as extrapolating from years and years of data.

They didn't say their calendar was coming to an end; it's merely an arithmetic event akin to the end of a century or millenium for us. They just stopped a lot of their tables at the 13th b'ak'tun because it was the nearest big number in the future. It's like us ending astronomical prediction tables on, say, 2500 because it's a big round number.

The Mayans did not attach much significance to the 13th b'ak'tun anyway. Modern-day Maya do not claim that the date is any sort of apocalypse; the 20th b'ak'tun which is several thousand years away means more to them but is still not consider apocalyptic. In fact, the Mayan calendar allows dates up to 4.134105 × 1028 years in the future.

voice of reason wrote:I'm going to go ahead and say no sarcasm please. If your sceptic speak your mind but I'm not doing anything drastic that week I'm going to life my life like I always have.


Sorry, sarcasm is a primary means of communication here.

voice of reason wrote:How do I delete others replies?


You can't. Only mods can delete others' posts, and that's only when they are spam or whatnot. You as the average user must deal with other people not agreeing with you, and most folks here will not agree with you. If you don't like that, then by all means turn the bloody channe; and find some other place where everyone has already drunk the Kool-aid.

And finally, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out how monumentally incoherent you are and how you have massacred the English language. From the peculiarities of your posts I'm pretty sure you're a native english speaker using an Iphone. Not having spell-check is no excuse for your failure to write at above a third-grade level. Your errors include:
21 failures to capitalize the beginning of a sentence (100% of all sentences)
5 failures to end a sentence with capitalization
10 failures to capitalize words in the middle of a sentence
3 missing commas
4 misspelled words
1 failure to put periods in 'P.S.'
1 missing apostrophe
1 missing hyphen
1 BBCode failure

That's at least 47 crimes against grammar and syntax in two short posts, and I think I missed a few. While I'm sure I made a few in my refutation, your pathetic writing abilites lead me to question whether or not you have any actual command of the English language. You also broke a fundamental rule of the fora: no posting links until you have at least 5 posts. Until you can demonstrate that you have the ability to write in functional and grammatically correct English, that you are able to post something for the intelligent discussion it provokes and not just to get yourself flamed, and that you don't plagarize (because 'astronomical anomalies' seems a bit adavanced for someone who can't spell 'calendar'), you will be treated as a troll.

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Voice of reason
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:45 am UTC

I realy don't care what you think I am basing this on theories that are being "proven" wrong to keep panic from insueing. And I can't help what I misspell I don't reread what I write. If you have a problem with me saying things wrong don't read. And the other thing I couldn't remember was the earth will complete a wobble. I was going to put my research on this reply but I will make sure it's up to par before I get critiside again, yes I misspelled that on purpose. If you want to critizes what I feel and theorize and believe go ahead. I'd rather sumerize the works of others than to copy and paste it. And I don't think it will be the appocalpse I think it will begining of the end or the halfway point. The government trying to disprove all this only makes it more certain that somethings going on. Niribu is real but NASA calls it something else. I have talked with a few of the scientist there and niribu as some call is not supposed to come close but they are uncertain and were asked by their superiors to say that there is no way that it could effect life on earth. Personaly I think that we humans will destroy ourselves before any cosmic event will. Espesialy with the progressive rate we are going towards a single world power ruling over all watch china and India they already control the u.s pretty much and could economicaly control them. That's all I have to say for now.

Ps I'm using a iPod and have just upgraded my spell and gramar check for your benifit. Your welcome.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:19 am UTC

Nibiru. Niribu is nonsense. Nibiru is a Babalonian term co-opted by a woman who is either misguided or a charlatan. The running theory is that a brown dwarf will pass through the solar system relatively soon. Brown Dwarves are stars that never were - they don't have enough mass to sustain the hydrogen reactions to luminate and other star-like behaviors.

Which still means they're massive. Orders of magnitude more massive than the Earth.

We have discovered moons of planets in other solar systems. We have found planets roughly the size of Earth. If there was something that massive closer to our solar system than the Centauri system (4 light years away) we'd know about it.

So we're now left with three possible solutions to the problem.

1. The woman is making shit up, likely in an effort to make money.
2. The woman has detected it with her own instruments and, rather than share her scientific discovery, has kept it to herself, somehow managed to silence anyone else who has found it, and has fabricated some story about alien contact to spread the word.
3. The woman is being contacted by alien creatures who are telling her about this threat in an effort to do.. something.

I personally cannot rule out beyond possibility #3 or even #2. That doesn't mean #2 or #3 have even a shred of credibility to them. I can't rule out that I will magically start speaking Mandarin Chinese without a single lesson, nor can I rule out that I will learn to levitate. I do not expect either one to happen, and understand that all scientific knowledge pretty much rules both to be impossible.

The government trying to disprove all this only makes it more certain that somethings going on.
So what you're saying is that there are no conditions in which you will be satisfied. If a Government endorses the idea, then you're right. If a Government remains silent, you're still right. If a Government actively denies it, then.. you're still right. Their silence or denials are your proof, as would be their agreement.

Are there any conditions for showing this as the balderdash that it is would satisfy you?
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby achan1058 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:40 am UTC

Do you know that the Chinese Calendar ends every 60 years? In fact, the world should have ended on 1984. Not to mention that they have some of the most insane astrology system available. It's timed down to hours, with many, many stars!!

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The Utilitarian » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:10 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:So what you're saying is that there are no conditions in which you will be satisfied. If a Government endorses the idea, then you're right. If a Government remains silent, you're still right. If a Government actively denies it, then.. you're still right. Their silence or denials are your proof, as would be their agreement.

Are there any conditions for showing this as the balderdash that it is would satisfy you?

Bonus points for use of "balderdash" in fluid conversation!

In all seriousness tho SecondTalon has cut to the quick of this issue. If there are NO conditions under which you will be willing to abandon this belief, then it must be regarded as irrational (paraphrasing Anthony Flew).

All of your points have had signifigant evidence presented against them by professional experts in their respective fields. No astronomer supports this ridiculous "Niburu" idea. Any anthropologist specializing in Mayan culture will tell you that in no way would the end of one of their calanders signify the end of existence.

You want to argue that all these professionals are wrong, and that other individuals with little to no expertise in the fields in question have the right of it, despite a lack of experience, tools, or supporting evidence.

If you really want to gain the respect of this forum (and the SB subforum) then go out, and try to DISPROVE your theory. Instead of feeding your already prominant confirmation bias, go out and find as much evidence as you can that this 2012 doomsday idea is completely bunk. Now, if you can bring that countering evidence to this forum and clearly and concisely show why it is flawed, perhaps someone will take you seriously and have a discussion about this point.

However, if you continue to insist that there is no evidence which will sway you in this notion, then be prepared to continue to be ridiculed.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby afarnen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:17 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:And I don't think it will be the appocalpse I think it will begining of the end or the halfway point.

Oh, okay. It's one of those compromise theories.

From comic 690: "I believe the truth always lies halfway between the most extreme claims."

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby +ranslucent » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:57 am UTC

Spoiler:
Voice of reason wrote:on december 21 2012 there are a few astronomical anomalies happening around the same time.


Which in no way implies drastic change.

Voice of reason wrote:The mayans were scientific genuises


Do you honestly believe the Mayans knew more about science and the galaxy than we do?

Voice of reason wrote:1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that


Even if this were true, why would this change anything?

Voice of reason wrote:2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth


There is no proof Niribu exists.

Voice of reason wrote:3. shortest day of the year winter equinox


Wrong, but why would this change anything?

Voice of reason wrote:And the other thing I couldn't remember was the earth will complete a wobble.


Completion is relative, but why would this change anything?

Voice of reason wrote:The government trying to disprove all this only makes it more certain that somethings going on


No, it doesn't.

Voice of reason wrote:I have talked with a few of the scientist there and niribu as some call is not supposed to come close


No, you have not talked to scientists if they accepted 'Niribu'.

Voice of reason wrote:we are going towards a single world power ruling over all watch china and India they already control the u.s pretty much and could economicaly control them


Dear sir, are you trolling, or were you never educated?


That was quote sniping, not Glau'ing. User Warned.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:28 am UTC

Well it's Nibiru, not Niribu. I had a devil of a time finding it until Wikipedia suggested the correct spelling. A few of Lieder's previous statements:
The Hale-Bopp comet does not exist. It is a fraud, perpetrated by those who would have the teeming masses quiescent until it is too late. Hale-Bopp is nothing more than a distant star, and will draw no closer.
Specifically, that it was a coverup for Planet X, what Nibiru was called before her fans got around to ripping the name off from some guy who's built his own conspiracy theorist dynasty off of misreading ancient texts to mean humans are descended from aliens. Very Stargate.

So once Hale-Bopp turned out to be... a comet... that was quietly abandoned. Next up was the statement that Planet X would hit perigree on May 27, 2003 which would cause the Earth to stop rotating for 5.9 days (everybody, to the tune of spoonful of sugar: a spoonful of sigfigs helps the psuedosci go down... no? okay) and then start rotating on a different axis. Now I can't say I remember that day with any clarity, but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen. And so shortly after it didn't, it became a "white lie" to throw off "the establishment". Lieder picked up some conspiracy theory buzzwords somewhere along the way, I see.

Lieder has never actually associated her Planet X/Nibiru with 2012. That other guy I mentioned, Sitchin, published a book in 2007 saying that his Nibiru (which Lieder previously proclaimed to be the same as her Planet X) was coming in the next 1000 years.

So that really doesn't have anything to do with December 21, 2012, but it is still just as wacky.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Fume Troll » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:04 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:hello i have just made this account and would like to present this serious topic to the board.

on december 21 2012 there are a few astronomical anomalies happening around the same time.
i would like some scientific opinions and facts as to what these event could mean for life on earth. i have no doubt in my mind that something will happen i just want to understand and except what it may mean for the human population and climate of our earth. i do not want anyone to panic or to jump to conclusions. this happened with y2k and thousands of people (maybe more) paniced and almost created chaos. The mayans were scientific genuises and their calendar is more accurate than our modern day clalendar that we have to add a leap year every four years. the mayans were great with astronomy and have been suprisingly accurate with eclipses and other astronomical events. why did they stop their calendar on this date with all these events happening.
1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that
2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth
3. shortest day of the year winter equinox
and there are more i just can't rember them right now please reply and tell me what all of this could mean and if there is anything else i forgot to mention.

thank you


First, apologies for my first reply.

I don't think it's generally accepted that Y2k almost created chaos. Yes there are those that think we over-reacted, but there are those that belive that we fixedt he problem in time, avoiding problems later. Certainly I don't remember anything like being near to chaos.

Regarding the Mayan Calendar, there's not really any evidence to suggest that they expected a disaster in 2012.

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar:

Misinterpretation of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is the basis for a New Age belief that a cataclysm will take place on December 21, 2012. December 21, 2012 is simply the first day of the 13th b'ak'tun.
Sandra Noble, executive director of the Mesoamerican research organization FAMSI, notes that "for the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle". She considers the portrayal of December 2012 as a doomsday or cosmic-shift event to be "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in." The 2009 science fiction apocalyptic disaster film 2012 is based on this belief.

2012 will have the second and last transit of Venus across the Sun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus. The last was in 2004. There's no reason to assume this will have any effect on us.

I suggest you don't worry too much about this.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:14 pm UTC

Not last transit of Venus. The last one we will see in our lifetimes, barring medical advancement that extends the human life by another century or so, sure.. but it'll transit again in the future.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Fume Troll » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:15 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Not last transit of Venus. The last one we will see in our lifetimes, barring medical advancement that extends the human life by another century or so, sure.. but it'll transit again in the future.


Of course :oops: , I meant this century.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:33 pm UTC

Wikipedia says that Sousa composed a march in honor of the previous second in the pair of transits of Venus in 1882. That's my kind of apocalypse. Maybe we'll get some kind of cool creative work in honor of the 2012 transit. Or at least some awesome photography from NASA.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Fume Troll » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:36 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote: Or at least some awesome photography from NASA.


The photos from 2004 literally put the relative sizes in perspective.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby xmrsmoothx » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:03 pm UTC

Also, the solar maximum happens somewhere in 2012.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Chen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:16 pm UTC

xmrsmoothx wrote:Also, the solar maximum happens somewhere in 2012.


http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/predict.shtml

That link says June 2013 for the next solar Maximum.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby JBJ » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:18 pm UTC

The solar maximum also happens every 11 years. Nothing unique about it.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:02 pm UTC

JBJ said:The solar maximum also happens every 11 years. Nothing unique about it.


the solar maxium happening around the same time as being close to a glactic alingment with sol and the center of galaxy could have some effect on humans this is something that i want to know about thank you

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:
JBJ said:The solar maximum also happens every 11 years. Nothing unique about it.


the solar maxium happening around the same time as being close to a glactic alingment with sol and the center of galaxy could have some effect on humans this is something that i want to know about thank you


There isn't any reason it would, a few events that have no connection aren't going to cause some strange effect on humanity. It would be similiar to me saying that because I am raising a flag up a pole and eating a ham sandwhich tomorrow my cousin will jump off a cliff.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The Utilitarian » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:13 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:
JBJ said:The solar maximum also happens every 11 years. Nothing unique about it.


the solar maxium happening around the same time as being close to a glactic alingment with sol and the center of galaxy could have some effect on humans this is something that i want to know about thank you

As has been previously stated on numerous occasions, it is impossible for two objects to be "in alignment" with each other without a third specified point as a frame of reference. It could be said that three or more objects are "in alignment" if they all line up on a straight line (I believe this is the definition you are working off of). So, for instance, it could be said that Earth, the Moon, and the Sun are "in alignment" during a solar eclipse, because the moon is directly between the Earth and the Sun.

Now, imagine that there are only two points (in your example, the Earth and the Galactic Core). Because there are only two points, you can ALWAYS draw a straight line between them, no matter where they are in relation to each other. This is like saying that Earth and the Moon are "in alignment". They are ALWAYS in alignment.

For what you're saying to even begin to make any sort of sense, you need to say what they are in alignment WITH. If you are using some OTHER definition of "alignment" from what I have said above, you need to clarify what you mean (and preferably stop using words to mean completely different things).
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:15 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:... could have some effect on humans this is something that i want to know about thank you
I would imagine it would have the same effect on humanity that it did 5,125 and 10,250 (etc etc) years ago. In short: Not much -- not only did the world not end on any of those repetitions, but there isn't a notable change in human development centered around 3113 BC either.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:20 pm UTC

this is why i want to bring up contriversal topics everyone has a view on it i meant alignment as in with the center of the galaxy i read that it could leave us more vunerable to radition. i don't know if that source was good so don't rag on me if im wrong just tell me. politely i can tell when people get mad because of what they think is me being ignorant.





i can put hyperlinks now right

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:28 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:this is why i want to bring up contriversal topics everyone has a view on it i meant alignment as in with the center of the galaxy i read that it could leave us more vunerable to radition. i don't know if that source was good so don't rag on me if im wrong just tell me. politely i can tell when people get mad because of what they think is me being ignorant.





i can put hyperlinks now right


You are still saying two objects are in alignment, which is always going to be true. We need clarification if you mean the earth sun and center or something else.

I wouldn't call this controversial, your the only one with a view that this will happen and science says nothing will.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:33 pm UTC

Before anyone else comments, I'd strongly suggest, at the very least, reading the relevant wikipedia page. "Galactic Alignment" is a mid-90's construction that refers to when Sol's elliptic intersects (projected, not actual) the Great Rift (a huge interstellar dust cloud) -- and it happens to fall on Earth's winter solstice in 2012. And it so happens that Earth, Sol and the Galactic Center are in alignment every year at the winter solstice. So you get the typical alignment that also aligns with the big dust cloud -- 4 points making a line, not just the typical 3.

Now, so what? Well, the 3 part alignment happens every year, so that's not important. But what about the projection to the Great Rift? I guess that happens once per Sol-revolution, or 225-250 million years. So maybe that's something? Except the while the Great Rift had meaning to Mayan Astrologers, it has no scientific implications to real astronomers. Even then, the Mayan astrologers didn't tie that to the end of the world, only to a spiritual shift.

To make matters worse, you can easily project that yearly alignment to intersect with *something*. It just so happens that the Mayan liked the big dust cloud as a 4th component, rather than some other object.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The Utilitarian » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:19 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Before anyone else comments, I'd strongly suggest, at the very least, reading the relevant wikipedia page. "Galactic Alignment" is a mid-90's construction that refers to when Sol's elliptic intersects (projected, not actual) the Great Rift (a huge interstellar dust cloud) -- and it happens to fall on Earth's winter solstice in 2012. And it so happens that Earth, Sol and the Galactic Center are in alignment every year at the winter solstice. So you get the typical alignment that also aligns with the big dust cloud -- 4 points making a line, not just the typical 3.

Now, so what? Well, the 3 part alignment happens every year, so that's not important. But what about the projection to the Great Rift? I guess that happens once per Sol-revolution, or 225-250 million years. So maybe that's something? Except the while the Great Rift had meaning to Mayan Astrologers, it has no scientific implications to real astronomers. Even then, the Mayan astrologers didn't tie that to the end of the world, only to a spiritual shift.

To make matters worse, you can easily project that yearly alignment to intersect with *something*. It just so happens that the Mayan liked the big dust cloud as a 4th component, rather than some other object.

Alright, so, having read the article I have a better understanding of what the OP is talking about when he's referring to "alignment".

Now my problem shifts to a clear leap of faith between ancient Mayan beliefs and modern empirical effects. Many things were important for the Maya because they attached spiritual significance to them. Now the dust cloud in question was significant because (as far as I can tell) it was thought to be (one of the) physical representations of Xibalba, the Mayan underworld. It's important to note that a large cave was ALSO considered to be the entrance to Xibalba. So yes, if you believed that a phenomenon in the sky was the road to the underworld, you'd most likely feel that it was pretty significant when it came into "alignment" (another issue all together, but we're accepting that concept provisionally at this point).

Now, what does this mean for us in the present? Well, that depends on whether you, like the ancient Maya, also believe in Xibalba! If, however, you do not think that the Great Rift is actually the path to the underworld, then there is no reason for you to think that this has any bearing upon anything, since it's only a massive dust cloud light-years from earth.

So, essentially to think this 2012 business holds any water, either:

a.) You believe in the ancient Mayan spirituality and think that a great spiritual shift is upon us as the underworld comes into alignment, in which case you'll have to convince others to start following a long dead (mostly) religion, or

b.) You believe that all of modern science is wrong and that the above alignment will have some physical effect, and that the Maya just happened to pick the correct celestial object to believe was their underworld, entirely by coincidence.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby TheAmazingRando » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:31 pm UTC

I think you'll find that it's the same with just about anything regarding 2012: there's some level of objective truth to it, but any conclusions quickly fall into the realm of mysticism and spirituality. Yes, it is the solstice, yes, there is an alignment of particular cosmic objects. But there's no reason to expect that it will be significant unless you place some spiritual significance in the Great Rift, because there's no scientific reason to believe that this alignment will do anything at all. That some great spiritual upheaval or apocalyptic destruction will occur in 1012 isn't any sort of scientific conclusion, it's the prophecy of a religion that professes belief in telepathic alien lifeforms that either created us or guided our development, that seek to bring us to a higher level of spiritual consciousness and enlightenment and cosmic unity. It's also linked to the belief that government officials and media icons are extradimensional shapeshifting alien lizard creatures holding us in spiritual and intellectual bondage.

Which is fine, if that's what you want to believe, though it sounds an awful lot like psychedelic delusions to me. But just be aware that that's what lurks just beneath the surface of all the pseudo-scientific "proof" of the 2012 doomsday/paradigm shift prophecies, and that it's the ultimate justification of those beliefs.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby BlackSails » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:19 am UTC

Look at it this way: IF the world is going to end, there isnt anything we can do about it. Vast cosmic forces > human. So there isnt any point to worrying about it.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Levi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:16 am UTC

I apologize for the short post on this forum, but since considering the direction this thread is going I hope it's alright: How close would a black hole have to be before there's a high chance of astronomers spotting it?

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby mmmcannibalism » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:20 am UTC

Levi wrote:I apologize for the short post on this forum, but since considering the direction this thread is going I hope it's alright: How close would a black hole have to be before there's a high chance of astronomers spotting it?


Actually, we can see(and by see I mean we see the stuff going into them) black holes that are galaxies away. If one was near the earth we would have noticed.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Levi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:26 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
Levi wrote:I apologize for the short post on this forum, but since considering the direction this thread is going I hope it's alright: How close would a black hole have to be before there's a high chance of astronomers spotting it?


Actually, we can see(and by see I mean we see the stuff going into them) black holes that are galaxies away. If one was near the earth we would have noticed.


Well, yes, I know that, but what I don't know if those were educated guesses in the first place (i.e., look in the center of galaxies) or if they're easy to spot. I seem to remember reading a book that said black holes are very difficult for astronomers to find since they don't produce light, just bend it.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:38 am UTC

Black holes tend to have an immense amount of debris around them (like an accretion disc) and give off a certain amount of radiation, plus potentially a significant amount of radiation from the debris. A black hole closer than Alpha Centauri would be spotted just as quickly as a star.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby BlackSails » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:52 am UTC

Black holes are actually the brighest objects in the entire universe. Some (active galactic nuclei) of them outshine our entire galaxy.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The_Mexican » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:16 pm UTC

I don't believe in any of this 2012 nonsense, but I do however find one fact incredibly coincidental about the Mayan calender. About every 16,000 years, the plants in our solar system become as closely aligned as they will get, which is pretty damn close. The next year this will happen will be 2012. Now of course this is nothing special, a 16,000 year cycle means that this has happened about 2,812,504 times since Earth has been around. But out of all the years the Mayans could have picked to end their calender on, they had to pick the one year when the planets happened to be aligned as closely as possible. None of this convinces me, but still, it's pretty coincidental.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:32 pm UTC

The_Mexican wrote:About every 16,000 years, the plants in our solar system become as closely aligned as they will get, which is pretty damn close. The next year this will happen will be 2012.

You're going to have to cite that with a scientific source, because NASA and other sources deny any such planetary alignment (i.e. linear) of even a subset of the planets in our solar system will happen in 2012. It's actually physically impossible to boot, but hey why let that get in the way -- the planets were the closest since 1962 and again until 2675 in May of 2000. Which, if you missed it, did not herald the end of days.

The "alignment" at the base of the 2012 rumors is the Galactic Alignment theory linked a few posts back. Which, I forgot to mention, evidently *actually* occurred in 1998 because the crackpot suggesting it got his math wrong. Which isn't really hard when you're trying to define the plane of Sol's elliptic as it intersects something as non-uniform as an entire galaxy.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Fume Troll » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:58 am UTC

Hypothetically, what effects could such aligments even have? Gravitational effects? The link above is good but contains a logical flaw:

Spoiler:
Let's look at gravity first. Right away you can see that even mighty Jupiter, king of the planets, only pulls about 0.01 (= 1%) as hard as the Moon does (just to show how this was done, Jupiter mass is 27,000 times the Moon, but is 1640 times farther away. The square of 1640 is about 2.7 million, and 27,000/2.7 million=0.01). Venus is next, with only 0.6% of the Moon's force. After that, the numbers drop a lot. The total pull of all the planets combined is 0.017, not even 2% of the Moon's pull!

That ain't much. But is it enough to destroy the Earth?

No, it isn't. Think of it this way: the Moon orbits the Earth in an ellipse, which means that sometimes in its orbit it is closer to the Earth than others. At perigee, or closest approach, it is about 363,000 kilometers away, and at apogee, or farthest point, it is about 405,000 kilometers away. If you use these numbers like we did above, you see that the Moon's own gravitational effect on the Earth fluctuates by about 25% every orbit! The Moon orbits the Earth in about a month, incidentally, so it goes from apogee to perigee every two weeks. So every 14 days we see a change in gravitational effects from the Moon more than 10 times greater than all the other planets combined! To put this in even more perspective, the force of the Moon on you is only about 0.000003 times the Earth's. For me, that means I weigh an extra 0.4 grams (0.0009 pounds) more when the Moon is under my feet versus when it's on the horizon (and therefore not contributing to the downward pull of the Earth). Not much!


But what if the moon is at perigee during the alignment - then we could have potentially higher forces than ever before! Then what?? (yeah, I know, still nothing, but the logic above isn't good)


What else? The Alien equivalent of eclipse spotters showing up to view the event?

I'm out.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:38 pm UTC

Fume Troll wrote:Hypothetically, what effects could such aligments even have?
We seem to have survived May 2000, and there is no such planetary alignment in 2012.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:30 pm UTC

the galactic alignment is happening right now. It started in 1980 and ends in 2016. The sun was best aligned with the center of the galaxy in 1998. This alignment occurs every 25,800 years.

fact

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:the galactic alignment is happening right now. It started in 1980 and ends in 2016. The sun was best aligned with the center of the galaxy in 1998. This alignment occurs every 25,800 years.

fact


The alignment started in 1980 and will end in 2016(assuming your correct), noticeably it hasn't magically exploded the earth yet.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:This alignment occurs every 25,800 years.

fact

Actually, no. The 26k year cycle is the precession of the zodiac.


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