December 21st 2012

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TheAmazingRando
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby TheAmazingRando » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:the galactic alignment is happening right now. It started in 1980 and ends in 2016. The sun was best aligned with the center of the galaxy in 1998. This alignment occurs every 25,800 years.

fact

Not sure if this is a fact or not, but even assuming you're correct, if it's a 36-year event, why should we expect it to do something special on a particular date in 2012 that it didn't do in any of the 32 years prior?

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:02 pm UTC

TheAmazingRando, who isn't really the target of the following diatribe, wrote:... why should we expect it to do something special on a particular date in 2012 that it didn't do in any of the 32 years prior?

Don't forget, the alignment between earth, sol & the galactic equator has been happening every winter solstice for the last 1000 years. The purported 2012 event (purported by Jenkins, a pseudo-scientist in 1990, not by the Mayans) is the conjunction of that alignment coinciding with Sol's elliptic aligning with the Great Rift. The alignment with the Rift is a 30-odd year process which actually peaked in 1998, not in 2012 as originally hypothesized (by Jenkins, in 1990). Astrophysics is tricky like that.

The importance Jenkins gave it in 1990 was that the Mayans astrologers thought the Great Rift was the road to the underworld (for a lack of an easier description) and so maybe they stopped their calendar when they predicted their world to align with the road to the underworld. But it's really, really important to remember that the Mayans made no such statement and assign no intrinsic (or even astrological) significance to the event, nor did they ever suggest it was the end of days.

AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN 1998.

WE ARE NOT DEAD.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby dg61 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:16 pm UTC

New rule: If cannot tell me on the spot about Xbalanque and Hunahpu, you lose any claim to knowledge of Mayan eschatology.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:53 pm UTC

Considering that the twins rose to be the sun and the moon after defeating the lord of the underworld while avenging their father, I guess I'm not seeing their part in the Mayan end of days. Especially since the Maya were more concerned with continuation of the cycle than the idea that the cycles would one day end, and so, as such, there virtually is no Mayan eschatology.

I'm no expert, but I call shenanigans.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby dg61 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:08 am UTC

Azrael wrote:Considering that the twins rose to be the sun and the moon after defeating the lord of the underworld while avenging their father, I guess I'm not seeing their part in the Mayan end of days. Especially since the Maya were more concerned with continuation of the cycle than the idea that the cycles would one day end, and so, as such, there virtually is no Mayan eschatology.

I'm no expert, but I call shenanigans.

You are correct(ACF cookie for you!). I merely wished to note how little people who prattle about "Maya apocalypse" know of actual Mayan culture, as demonstrated by lack of knowledge of one of the most significant Maya myths. The references to Xibalaba upthread are a plus.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:13 am UTC

You just wanted to use eschatology in a sentence. :mrgreen:

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby dg61 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:18 am UTC

Azrael wrote:You just wanted to use eschatology in a sentence. :mrgreen:

That too. Also, a Hero Twins reference was too much to pass up.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Minerva » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:47 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:hello i have just made this account and would like to present this serious topic to the board.

on december 21 2012 there are a few astronomical anomalies happening around the same time.
i would like some scientific opinions and facts as to what these event could mean for life on earth. i have no doubt in my mind that something will happen i just want to understand and except what it may mean for the human population and climate of our earth. i do not want anyone to panic or to jump to conclusions. this happened with y2k and thousands of people (maybe more) paniced and almost created chaos. The mayans were scientific genuises and their calendar is more accurate than our modern day clalendar that we have to add a leap year every four years. the mayans were great with astronomy and have been suprisingly accurate with eclipses and other astronomical events. why did they stop their calendar on this date with all these events happening.
1. the sun alligns with the galitic center, or something like that
2. niribu is supposed to be extremely close to earth
3. shortest day of the year winter equinox
and there are more i just can't rember them right now please reply and tell me what all of this could mean and if there is anything else i forgot to mention.

thank you

Umm ... wow, spammy link removed.

Feel free to Summer Glau the shit out of this one, but that doesn't mean it's open season on being a douche. Several posts have been removed -- consider yourselves lucky that you didn't get warnings for them.


EDIT: I meant it kids. I'll start handing out SB bans if the latest round of warnings didn't do the trick.

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Um... wow.

I think you forgot to include a discussion about how the neutrinos turn into microwaves.

Also, to assist with your obviously important and groundbreaking research, I give you the following link, which you'll no doubt find informative and valuable:

http://www.youtube.com/user/gorilla199# ... t1Yo610lG0

Now, anyway... galactic alignment? Even if there was a "galactic alignment", which there isn't, so what? What would that imply?
If there was a particular celestial alignment, how could if affect us? It can't. Saying that a particular astronomical alignment could magically influence our daily lives is simply nothing more than astrology.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:00 pm UTC

i was disproving on of my theories with facts i would like it if you could do the same. the using facts part. numbers scientific research and such. i found i was wrong and i am appologizing about that one thing.

it was not only the mayans that predicted endings in the time peroid around 12.21.12 the egyptians and
there is also a theory out that A gigantic asteroid named 433 Eros will pass earth on January 31, 2012.
"The Bible Code", a popular book published in 1998 that finds hidden messages in the bible, predicts the end of the world in 2012.
Some of the interpretations of the prophecies of Nostradamus supports the 2012 doomsday."

hopi, india, mayan, egyptian, aboriginees ALL had their own predictions about 2012

Don't double (or triple post) and please demonstrate a more sophisticated understanding of the written language. You're barely one illegible post away from being banned from SB. My patience in this regard has reached it's bitter, angry end.

-Az

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:32 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:i was disproving on of my theories with facts i would like it if you could do the same.

We've been smacking you around with facts for two pages now, and I'd appreciate it if you would exert even a fraction of the effort that we have been. You mention the bible, Nostradamus and other early societies all mentioning 2012? Then demonstrate it to be so, using reputable links and citations. Don't just copy-pasta some crap and forget to clean up the dangling quotation mark.


Better yet, provide even an inkling why one should believe even the "scientific" assertions (I'm going to let you off the hook for having to explain the astrological ones) of early societies who had not yet understood things like gravity, when the vast array of modern observation and calculation methods continually allay such fears.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:39 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:it was not only the mayans that predicted endings in the time peroid around 12.21.12 the egyptians
Voice of reason wrote:hopi, india, mayan, egyptian, aboriginees ALL had their own predictions about 2012
"Pulled out of my ass" is not a valid citation.
there is also a theory out that "A gigantic asteroid named 433 Eros will pass earth on January 31, 2012.

Actually true. Kind of. On December 31 (not 21), 2012 433 Eros will pass the Earth at 0.179 AU, or about 70 times the distance to the moon. But again, much like the Earth-Sun-galactic center alignment that happens every solstice, this is nothing special - it occurred in 1975 and will again in 2056 - and it certainly isn't going to have any effect on Earth. Wikipedia
"The Bible Code", a popular book published in 1998 that finds hidden messages in the bible, predicts the end of the world in 2012.

Actually, it predicted the coming of the apocalypse in 2006, unless of course something changed. Prophecies are easy when you have an out. The Bible Code was some esoteric inept cryptanalysis applied to the Torah with interpretation liberally applied when it the results didn't mean anything. So not only is it playing word search on a volume of literature (which is already pointless, a bit like playing songs backwards to look for hidden messages only you're cutting bits of the song together too so you can make backwards messages), it's inventing words while you do it because you can't find any that are in the dictionary.

Assuming that Biblical prophecy is correct, people have a rather bad history of interpreting it. I direct your attention to the Great Disappointment. In the mid-1800s, a Baptist preacher named William Miller interpreted prophecies from the book of Daniel to mean the Second Advent (or the contents of the book of Revelations) would occur in 1843. Then 1844, twice. It didn't happen. My point is, this was actually a pretty solid interpretation of the prophecies, not some word search nonsense - the dates chosen for the start were not entirely arbitrary and "days" in prophecy referring to years was generally accepted, and it was all based on the Jewish calendar - and it was still wrong.
Some of the interpretations of the prophecies of Nostradamus supports the 2012 doomsday."

Some of the interpretations of the prophecies of Nostradamus supported Y2K, too. And some of them supported 9/11, the Great London Fire, the rise of Napoleon, and Hitler, but those interpretations never once existed until after the fact. Nostradamus is a favorite of prophecy nuts because none of his prophecies are dated, and many of them are so ridiculously vague that you can find one to apply to anything. And if you're too lazy to slog through all his cryptic quatrains, you can always invent some and nobody on your email list (or theirs, or their recipients', ad nauseum) will know the difference.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:45 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
Voice of reason wrote:
there is also a theory out that "A gigantic asteroid named 433 Eros will pass earth on January 31, 2012.

Actually true. Kind of. On December 31 (not 21), 2012 433 Eros will pass the Earth at 0.179 AU, or about 70 times the distance to the moon. But again, much like the Earth-Sun-galactic center alignment that happens every solstice, this is nothing special - it occurred in 1975 and will again in 2056 - and it certainly isn't going to have any effect on Earth. Wikipedia

Don't forget that .179 AU is roughly half the distance between Earth and Mars, when the planets are at their closest. The "near Earth" in NEA is a relative measure.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby TheAmazingRando » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:05 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:"The Bible Code", a popular book published in 1998 that finds hidden messages in the bible, predicts the end of the world in 2012.
It's been a while since I've read about the Bible Code, but it's essentially taking the text, setting it rows of a constant, arbitrary character length, and playing word-search with the results. Only word-search with much looser rules, since the Bible Code uses Hebrew characters, which don't have vowels, and applies them to modern names and places, and also allows for words that are an equidistant number of letters apart. When you're dealing with a HUGE body of text, coupled with the number of possible arrangements of the text before attempting to decode, you can find just about anything. For example, some people did it with Moby Dick (which allows for less leeway, since it uses the English alphabet) and found similar results.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Skraxt » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:
Voice of reason wrote:"The Bible Code", a popular book published in 1998 that finds hidden messages in the bible, predicts the end of the world in 2012.
It's been a while since I've read about the Bible Code, but it's essentially taking the text, setting it rows of a constant, arbitrary character length, and playing word-search with the results. Only word-search with much looser rules, since the Bible Code uses Hebrew characters, which don't have vowels, and applies them to modern names and places, and also allows for words that are an equidistant number of letters apart. When you're dealing with a HUGE body of text, coupled with the number of possible arrangements of the text before attempting to decode, you can find just about anything. For example, some people did it with Moby Dick (which allows for less leeway, since it uses the English alphabet) and found similar results.


And further along this subject, the medium of the bible codes, written language, is a very patterned thing in the first place with syntax and grammar, the chances of finding patterns in something already patterned are also higher.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby achan1058 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:39 am UTC

Skraxt wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:
Voice of reason wrote:"The Bible Code", a popular book published in 1998 that finds hidden messages in the bible, predicts the end of the world in 2012.
It's been a while since I've read about the Bible Code, but it's essentially taking the text, setting it rows of a constant, arbitrary character length, and playing word-search with the results. Only word-search with much looser rules, since the Bible Code uses Hebrew characters, which don't have vowels, and applies them to modern names and places, and also allows for words that are an equidistant number of letters apart. When you're dealing with a HUGE body of text, coupled with the number of possible arrangements of the text before attempting to decode, you can find just about anything. For example, some people did it with Moby Dick (which allows for less leeway, since it uses the English alphabet) and found similar results.


And further along this subject, the medium of the bible codes, written language, is a very patterned thing in the first place with syntax and grammar, the chances of finding patterns in something already patterned are also higher.
It's a common fallacy in data mining. If you look hard enough, you will find patterns even when there should have been none, simply by chance.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby kaimason1 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:31 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:hopi, india, mayan, egyptian, aboriginees ALL had their own predictions about 2012


We would love to see a CITED, PROPERLY QUOTED, PROPERLY SPELLED/GRAMMAR post to back this up. I like to consider myself a bit of an expert on mythology and I can't think of a single prophecy any one of these or other 'civilizations' (I don't think the Aborigines or Hopi ever were too advanced) had about 2012. Also, elaborate on your other claims. For example, tell us WHO says Nostradamus predicted apocalypse in 2012? Does that mean all his other prophecies will or have come to fruition before then? How do they not have twenty layers of ambiguity? etc.

Hint: If you really want to avoid being banned by Azrael, triple check for grammar and spelling.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby drunken » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:28 am UTC

A couple of points about the Mayans:

1: Our reading of their calendar system is not perfect, especially given that their calendar is round, so we are either entering cycle 0 (if they had a 0th cycle) or cycle X where X is the number of cycles. So it could be another 1000 years or so before the calendar actually flips back to its beginning.

2:The Mayans would have agreed with the OP on this one, historical evidence shows that the Mayans had constant prophesies of doom and gloom accompanying even their smaller calendar cycles, so every hundred years or so* people would roam around saying that the end of the world was nigh and that all sinners should repent etc. I am not sure if the fall of their civilisation actually coincided with any of these calendar transitions - the odds of it are x/y where x is the number of years it took to crumble and y is the length of the shortest calendar cycle you could reasonably claim to be significant enough to preach doom at the end of.

I do however believe that something will happen in 2012 (specific date not specified), mainly because something happens every year. I believe 2012 will be an especially change filled year though, for several reasons:

1: The pace of change in human affairs seems to continually accelerate so it is reasonable to suppose that more change will occur in 2012 than in the average preceding year.

2: A line I drew on a moores law graph to speculate into the future that I drew in 1999(ish) showed computers reaching human equivalent complexity in 2010-2014, this has been on track ever since but obviously the range has narrowed so I am still betting sometime in 2012-13.

3: The average of wildly differing peak oil claims (again I speculated this a few years ago so it might seem less reasonable now) seemed also to land around 2012. Regardless, it is almost certain that energy will be a big issue in 2012 as it is now.

4: A lot of people beleive that something will happen in 2012, this makes the populations behaviour during this year more volatile. People are more prone to unrest and can snap into all sorts of strange modes of behaviour if they have convinced themselves that the world is about to end.

So what does it all add up to? Well I am optimistic that it will be exciting and beneficial. I urge all readers to take whatever action they feel able to ensure this. Volatility and change are a double edged sword, we may find we are unimpeded in making wonderful new steps towards a better world, or we may find that things lose stability and fall apart. Be prepared for the worst and expect the best. Happy Mayan new year in advance everyone.

*forgive me for not looking up the actual cycle numbers and lengths, and providing sources and references for my points but I really can't be bothered. Google has details.
***This post is my own opinion and no claim is being made that it is in any way scientific nor intended to be construed as such by any reader***

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby folkhero » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:52 am UTC

drunken wrote:A couple of points about the Mayans:

2:The Mayans would have agreed with the OP on this one, historical evidence shows that the Mayans had constant prophesies of doom and gloom accompanying even their smaller calendar cycles, so every hundred years or so* people would roam around saying that the end of the world was nigh and that all sinners should repent etc. I am not sure if the fall of their civilisation actually coincided with any of these calendar transitions - the odds of it are x/y where x is the number of years it took to crumble and y is the length of the shortest calendar cycle you could reasonably claim to be significant enough to preach doom at the end of.

What's this about, "the Mayans would have"? the Mayans are an extant people and everything I've heard about their opinions of 2012 has suggested that they don't think it will have anything to do with the end of the world.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:55 am UTC

drunken wrote:I do however believe that something will happen in 2012 (specific date not specified), mainly because something happens every year. I believe 2012 will be an especially change filled year though, for several reasons:

1: The pace of change in human affairs seems to continually accelerate so it is reasonable to suppose that more change will occur in 2012 than in the average preceding year.

2: A line I drew on a moores law graph to speculate into the future that I drew in 1999(ish) showed computers reaching human equivalent complexity in 2010-2014, this has been on track ever since but obviously the range has narrowed so I am still betting sometime in 2012-13.

3: The average of wildly differing peak oil claims (again I speculated this a few years ago so it might seem less reasonable now) seemed also to land around 2012. Regardless, it is almost certain that energy will be a big issue in 2012 as it is now.

4: A lot of people beleive that something will happen in 2012, this makes the populations behaviour during this year more volatile. People are more prone to unrest and can snap into all sorts of strange modes of behaviour if they have convinced themselves that the world is about to end.

So, lots of things will happen in 2012 because lots of things have been happening lately and the rate of things happening seems to be increasing as time goes on. Well yes, but the same could be said for 2011, or 2013. Accelerationistas unite! Note: I have no problem with these three statements, except there's a lot more to human equivalence than Moore's law applies to, and if there is some oil thing in 2012 (I admit I never understood what peak oil means, something to do with oil costs and supply and such) it's just coincidence as that market moves a lot and is largely controlled by a cartel anyway.

You overestimate the volatility that comes from people's belief in the end of the world. That is one thing where it's useful to look at Y2K, and... nothing of interest happened. A few people stockpiled canned goods, but that's about it.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby BlackSails » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:33 pm UTC

drunken wrote:
2: A line I drew on a moores law graph to speculate into the future that I drew in 1999(ish) showed computers reaching human equivalent complexity in 2010-2014, this has been on track ever since but obviously the range has narrowed so I am still betting sometime in 2012-13.


What does that even mean?

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Skraxt » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:01 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
drunken wrote:
2: A line I drew on a moores law graph to speculate into the future that I drew in 1999(ish) showed computers reaching human equivalent complexity in 2010-2014, this has been on track ever since but obviously the range has narrowed so I am still betting sometime in 2012-13.


What does that even mean?


I believe he is speaking of a Technological Singularity, the point at which AI becomes as capable of building AI as we are (human equivalent complexity). From which point it seems logical to think that AI would build something even better than that, and then that AI (which is superior to human intelligence) would build something even more superior ad infinitum.

This theory is on shaky ground, but to go into that would be off-topic.

I would like to know exactly what formulas drunken used. Because nobody has been able to narrow it down so closely before, and his research could be of academic value.

EDIT:

What do you mean by "human equivalent complexity"? How do you define that? The singularity is based on AIs ability to create better AI, human complexity is a much broader subject and is only tentatively related to Moore's Law.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Breezy42 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:09 pm UTC

I've always wondered why people get the idea that something hugely significant will happen when the calendar ends. To my knowledge, the Mayans certainly never claimed that, since practically no written record survived the Spanish invasion. Remember that we're dealing with an ancient people who were probably making the calendars for the same reasons we did: to serve as a practical tool for planting, harvesting, etc. Could it be that they simply didn't see a need to extend the calendar further?
Though I could figure out where the days will fall in February 5012, I have no desire to do so. It simply wouldn't be relevant to life in the present.

Oh, and in response to lumping the Egyptians, Hopi, etc in there... I don't know a great deal about all those cultures, but I do know a fair amount about Egyptian calendars. They based the calendar with the current ruler. For the Egyptians, when a new pharaoh took over, time literally restarted itself. Modern historians have great difficulty in trying to sync their dates with the western calendar as it is. Anyone who has shifted through hundreds of pages of "in the third year of the rule of so-and-so, son of what's-his-name..." could tell you that claiming the Egyptians made a prediction about an event at such a precise date in the future is ripe with inaccuracy.

Sorry for the short post. Unlike voice of reason, I have just never seen the big deal in all of this.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby drunken » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:17 am UTC

My reply was only half serious. I especially enjoyed how netcrusher basically agreed with all my main point and then seemed to say that I was wrong in some way. By something happening I really mean what it sounds like, the usual things, nothing spooky or revelations-ish at all.

Skraxt wrote:I would like to know exactly what formulas drunken used. Because nobody has been able to narrow it down so closely before, and his research could be of academic value.
What do you mean by "human equivalent complexity"? How do you define that? The singularity is based on AIs ability to create better AI, human complexity is a much broader subject and is only tentatively related to Moore's Law.


Sorry my formulas have little academic value. I literally drew a shaky pencil line on someone elses graph, the organism complexity was already on one of the axes so I didn't work that out at all. If I were to work something like that out I would assign an average complexity to a single cell based on number and speed of interactions and then multiply by the average number of cells, comparing this with the number of operations per second the computer performs. That or assign a similar value to transistors and other components for comparison. The book I got the graph from was Hans Moravec's 'Mind Children' . It was written around 1995 but despite this is still a fascinating source for the future of robotics and AI. I would like to point out for the sake of argument that my curve on his graph predicted mouse complexity to within six months of when the Sony PSP was released, which the advertising claimed as having the complexity of a mouse.

All of this is merely idle speculation. I don't have any rare understanding of the future other than a moderate amount of foresight and an ability to extrapolate basic facts. I am pretty sure the sun will rise on the morning of the 21s Dec 2012, thats my only firm prediction.

Oh and one other thing, human complexity, however it is worked out does not directly equate to the singularity mentioned by Skraxt. This 'critical mass' of computing power may or may not coincide with human complexity.
***This post is my own opinion and no claim is being made that it is in any way scientific nor intended to be construed as such by any reader***

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:53 pm UTC

Breezy42 wrote: claiming the Egyptians made a prediction about an event at such a precise date in the future is ripe with inaccuracy.


i never said the egyptians had a date i really just meant that they had their own prediction of the end and that not all of these predictions can be true.
i am going to start fully explaining my posts from now on. i rushed my last one because i was running late for a meeting that i was never told about. sorry.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby olubunmi » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:19 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:
Breezy42 wrote: claiming the Egyptians made a prediction about an event at such a precise date in the future is ripe with inaccuracy.


i never said the egyptians had a date i really just meant that they had their own prediction of the end and that not all of these predictions can be true.
i am going to start fully explaining my posts from now on. i rushed my last one because i was running late for a meeting that i was never told about. sorry.


Well, just about every ancient culture had people predicting the end of the world, probably just like we have doom preachers in our time. The end of the world has been predicted numerous times, in numerous ways, and yet, we're still here.

I suggest you check out this site, it offers a lot of apocalyptic scenarios ranging from Mayans and mass insanity, to Planet X and supervolcanoes. Some of these are plausible, and/or happened in the past. Some of these are well thought trough, and actually based on 'evidence' (in some cases, this is disputable) .The Mayans prediction is simply the result of a modern misinterpretation of their mythology.
You see, even if you manage to debunk all scientific evidence that nothing remarkable will happen that day, the point still stands that the Mayans didn't predict anything concrete about the end of their calendar...

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby grifter_tm » Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:20 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:Umm ... wow, spammy link removed.

Feel free to Summer Glau the shit out of this one, but that doesn't mean it's open season on being a douche. Several posts have been removed -- consider yourselves lucky that you didn't get warnings for them.


EDIT: I meant it kids. I'll start handing out SB bans if the latest round of warnings didn't do the trick.

-Az


Wow. Mod's post just made my day. :lol:

You know what just made my day? Someone failing to think through the cause-effect of quoting a warning to stay on topic and yet not doing so. User warned.

- Az

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The Utilitarian » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:17 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:i never said the egyptians had a date i really just meant that they had their own prediction of the end and that not all of these predictions can be true.
i am going to start fully explaining my posts from now on. i rushed my last one because i was running late for a meeting that i was never told about. sorry.

And now we have reached the point where you are simply ad-hoc revising your previous statements to avoid arriving at the inevitable conclusion that this entire 2012 business is a load of horse feathers.
Voice of reason wrote:hopi, india, mayan, egyptian, aboriginees ALL had their own predictions about 2012

I fail to see how that could be interpreted in any other way. Again and again compelling evidence has been presented in this thread by person with a level of expertise in either astronomy or anthropology, disproving this ridiculous notion top down and bottom up.

If you want to believe that the world is going to end in 2012, go ahead, but for everyone's sake please stop trying to imply that you have any valid or compelling evidence to support this belief.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:11 am UTC

There is no way for you to prove to us that your are actualy a scientist. Anyone can just say they are. I for instants could say that I've studied this date for twenty years and have massive amounts of data to prove that "something" will happen on this date. And you couldn't prove that I don't. That is why people are so brave to voice their opinions on the Internet because if there wrong oh well no actual harm done. I think some one stated this in a past forum or something because I remember reading it I think. I had a Deja vu moment.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby phlip » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:40 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:I for instants could say that I've studied this date for twenty years and have massive amounts of data to prove that "something" will happen on this date. And you couldn't prove that I don't.

Indeed. And, as such, such a claim is completely useless.

However, if you were to actually share that data, then it would be useful.

It doesn't matter at all whether someone is a scientist or not. I, for instance, am not a professional scientist... I just do this, unqualified, as a hobby. But that doesn't matter - if I have valid, verifiable data that supports a position, then that position is supported, regardless of who I am. The only times my credentials, or lack thereof, would come into the picture would be in the absense of valid, verifiable data... say, if I simply claim to have the data, but I'm not sharing it for some reason... then it's resting only on my reputation, and so its credibility depends on my own credibility. But no matter how credible I am, the claim isn't going to be accepted without me releasing that data... and at that point, my credibility exits the picture entirely, and it doesn't matter that I'm some random guy on an Internet forum, as long as the data is valid and verifiable.

All of which is why noone has actually claimed to be a scientist in this thread, as though that would mean anyting. Which makes me wonder why you say
Voice of reason wrote:There is no way for you to prove to us that your are actualy a scientist.
What exactly are you trying to refute, here?

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:42 am UTC

Probably this:

The Utilitarian wrote:Again and again compelling evidence has been presented in this thread by person with a level of expertise in either astronomy or anthropology, disproving this ridiculous notion top down and bottom up.

But, yeah. It's about the least relevant reply that could have been managed.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:03 am UTC

The Utilitarian wrote:Again and again compelling evidence has been presented in this thread by person with a level of expertise in either astronomy or anthropology, disproving this ridiculous notion top down and bottom up.

But, yeah. It's about the least relevant reply that could have been managed.[/quote]
That's exactly what I was refuting

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby The Utilitarian » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:07 am UTC

Voice of reason wrote:There is no way for you to prove to us that your are actualy a scientist. Anyone can just say they are. I for instants could say that I've studied this date for twenty years and have massive amounts of data to prove that "something" will happen on this date. And you couldn't prove that I don't. That is why people are so brave to voice their opinions on the Internet because if there wrong oh well no actual harm done. I think some one stated this in a past forum or something because I remember reading it I think. I had a Deja vu moment.

Never have I claimed to be a scientist nor claimed that anyone else in this thread is. You decided to infer that all on your own. I merely said that they had "a level of expertise" at which they could access, understand, and present relevant data from reliable sources about the topic at hand. I never even claimed a high level of expertise. You do not need a doctorate to present an informed and supported opinion about a subject. However, the difference between you (non-scientist) and the other non-scientists in this thread is that while we can both claim to have data supporting out beliefs, everyone has really does have that data and has presented it in this thread, often with informative links.

Yes, you can say anything on the internet, but if you say it in this corner of the internet, you'd better be able to back it up.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby kaimason1 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:20 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:There is no way for you to prove to us that your are actualy a scientist. Anyone can just say they are. I for instants could say that I've studied this date for twenty years and have massive amounts of data to prove that "something" will happen on this date. And you couldn't prove that I don't. That is why people are so brave to voice their opinions on the Internet because if there wrong oh well no actual harm done. I think some one stated this in a past forum or something because I remember reading it I think. I had a Deja vu moment.



The message I took from this was that you yourself are trying to say that scientists are on your side. The only way this would be in anyway partially correct would be if you counted pseudoscience as a respectable scientific field - this is a stretch. A good portion of these people who have any 'data' (they have none which means anything and hasn't been twisted into a mobius strip of logic to suit their purposes) use it for their own financial purposes. Aside from that, if you still 'trust' these phonies, you started this - don't forget that. You have claimed that you hav been discriminated against, yada yada yada, but you asked for it. Don't post a - in my opinion - loony idea on the xkcd forums if you don't want us to criticize it. We are not a forum like 4chan or any other number of forums loaded with people who don't think logically or intelligently. In my experience, most of us are fairly well educated and logical. Now that I have ripped apart your defensive post, I will quote you again:

Voice of reason wrote:i never said the egyptians had a date i really just meant that they had their own prediction of the end and that not all of these predictions can be true.
i am going to start fully explaining my posts from now on. i rushed my last one because i was running late for a meeting that i was never told about. sorry.



As has been said, you did have a date - 2012. Even rushing, I can post in coherent sentences. Now, though, I am rushing - more later.

EDIT: As I was posting when I had to go to my next class, what I (and I imagine everyone else) really want to see is a coherent, grammatically correct, properly spelled reply with the 'information' you claim to have. Spend some time, gather references, and explain your logic to us. I am perfectly respectful of even what is in my eyes the silliest of ideas, as long as the person can show that they have some (even faulty) logic and reason to it. I am perfectly willing to respectfully debate this point as long as you can hold up some reason and arguments. So far you haven't, so I have had to argue against the grammar and inconsistencies of what you post. Please - take some time to hold up a sizable argument. I would love to talk about this, and not start (or continue) a flame war.
Last edited by kaimason1 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:05 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:09 pm UTC

"No, John. You are the demons."


Knock it off, all of you.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Voice of reason » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:13 pm UTC

okay not realy have anything to do with 2012 i dont know yet, but whats with these big earthquakes. is it just a coincidence that chile had a 8.8 so soon after the haiti incedent. or have the plates just been building up and randomly released their potential energy.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Kulantan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:36 pm UTC

Voice of reason wrote:Okay, not really anything to do with 2012 I didn't know yet, but what is with these big earthquakes? Is it just a coincidence that Chile had a 8.8 so soon after the Haiti incident or have the plates just been building up and randomly released their potential energy?

Yes it is purely random. Here is a list of earthquakes in the 21st century. There are quakes of this magnitude close together all the time. For an example look at December 23, 2004 and December 26, 2004. The tragic thing here is the loss of life, which varies quite a bit even with the same magnitude (e.g. January 12, 2010 compared with February 26, 2010). Unless there was a natural phenomena that was suddenly targeting humans, then it is purely a tragic coincidence.This is basic data that you can find with white belt search-fu and ten seconds, please make a search yourself before asking easily answered questions like this again, tis not very SB.
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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby olubunmi » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:53 pm UTC

Disasters like that happen from time to time, it is coincidence these earthquakes followed relatively close upon eachother.

Earthquakes at the magnitude of the one in Haiti happen about 20 times a year, that's hardly uncommon. What is special is the enormous death toll.
The earthquake in Chile was of a higher magnitude, but not nearly as devastating.

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Re: December 21st 2012

Postby Azrael » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:59 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote: Here is a list of earthquakes in the 21st century.

And with this list, the earthquake tangent can stop. Immediately.

EDIT: Actually, the whole thing can stop at this point. PM me with a good reason (i.e. meaningful additional content) and I'll gladly unlock it.

-Az


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