Creationism

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

popple
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 9:11 pm UTC
Location: Guernsey

Creationism

Postby popple » Wed May 30, 2007 5:38 pm UTC

Sorry if this has been done, I had a look and couldn't find anything.

Right, in light of the recent opening of the creationism museum in America, I was wondering what all you people thought about creationism or ID or whatever, and also what your thoughts are on the prospect of this subject taught as science in schools.

I don't like creationism, while I respect the right for people to believe it, I definitely don't want it taught to me as science. I don't think that it can in any way be called science (the whole reasoning behind it seems wrong to me: the fact that they start with a conclusion... don’t get me started on creationism), and so the museum should at least admit that it isn't science.

Tell me what you think.
Image
popple.. from snap, crack, and popple... thats the line isn't it? isn't it?

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Wed May 30, 2007 5:53 pm UTC

Creationism is not a science, that is a fact.

Creationism should not be taught as a science, that is true.

Evolution is how we came about, no questions about that.

I differ from the general consensus in that, Creationism doesn't really have a place in public schools, until they start teaching about religions, in which they have to in most cases when dealing with world history, if it's a proper history class.


ID is (in my opinion) a weak way for some people weak in their faith, to try and mesh science and religion, in order to try and validate what they "believe".
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
Alcari
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 3:06 pm UTC
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Alcari » Wed May 30, 2007 5:59 pm UTC

EDIT: added some stuff, fixed a million typos.

oh boy, religious discussion are usually a very bad idea on fora, but i think they atheist/christian ratio here is pretty high, so the discussion will likely be short.

Personally, I think people should believe whatever they want to, as long as they don't bother other people with it.

Teaching creationism as science is as stupid as teaching alchemy as science. Creationism is important to religion, so teach it in a damn religion class, and stop pretending there's actually proof to support it.

the foundation of the whole creationism/evolution debate lies with people not realising what makes a theory. the main argument i've heared is "Evolution is only a theory" but they fail to realise that there is a ton of support the theory and, more importantly, it's predictable.

evolution predict "There should be creatures looking like this and this over there" and presto, they're found. I've yet to see any proof at all for creationism.

as phenris said, teaching creationism is also a way for people to justify their belief with what they think is science. I can't really blame for being religious, it's just another way of hiding from reality, same as TV, internet or drugs. (I would get so badly flamed for this anywhere else) The problem is when people start looking for other reasons to believe, as there really are non, other then fear and doubt, maybe uncertainty.

Of course, they causes for the split between atheists and religious people (mostly christians in the US) is far more difficult then that, and I don't pretend to understand it, I'm just glad I live in the Netherlands, where people really don't give a .... wether you're religious or not.
I'm made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.

free manga and anime music

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Wed May 30, 2007 6:08 pm UTC

Nah, religious discussion actually goes round pretty well here.

Granted there are a few (myself included) who can be pig headed about certain things, so long as the discussion stays serious and doesn't turn into flame wars i think it's allowed.

I wish more people here in the states had the same outlook(on religion) as the Netherlands.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
McLurker
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:04 pm UTC
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Postby McLurker » Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm UTC

Maybe this belongs on the confession thread- but I used to be a creationist

Shock! Horror!

It seemed like a good idea at the time. What is interesting is that I managed to graduate with a first in a chemistry and biology degree at the time!

My experiences mean that, while I hate the stupid falseness of the science (and knowing it from the inside means I can do a better job of attacking it than most atheists), I can sympathise with the people who have been sucked into the creationist trap. Often, it is the result of pure ignorance, but I know it is possible for intelligent, educated people to become creationists. I'm far more interested in showing them that creationsim is false- and that you don't need to be a creationist to have a strong faith in God- than the rhetorical point-scoring that debates on the subject almost always degenerate into. They need our sympathy and understanding, like all people who have been deluded.

I think that demonstrating the nonsensical nature of creation science isn't enough- people don't become creationists because the science looks good but because they believe its the best way to live according to their faith consistently. Creationism isn't science- and people do not become creationists for scientific reasons but sociological ones.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Wed May 30, 2007 6:28 pm UTC

It seemed like a good idea at the time. What is interesting is that I managed to graduate with a first in a chemistry and biology degree at the time!


Yeah, one of my friends at college was a very intelligent boy who was majoring in biology (concentration on cellular biology, I think), and was a staunch creationist. I think, for him, it just came down to choosing not to see the places where that didn't make sense.

We had a lot of arguments about eyes and such. I wonder what ever happened to him?
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Postby space_raptor » Wed May 30, 2007 6:32 pm UTC

Alcari wrote:oh boy, religious discussion are usually a very bad idea on fora, but i think they atheist/christian ratio here is pretty high, so the discussion will likely be short.

Personally, I think people should believe whatever they want to, as long as they don't bother other people with it.

Many Christians don't believe in creationism. Careful with your generalizations, chief.

Using religion to deny physical realities is a sad undertaking. I don't know why creationists do it. They are willfully blind. They would prefer not to know how things really work. In my opinion, a creator would want us to figure out the physical world. God, if he exists, would not want us to be willfully ignorant.

It is a sad comment on human psychology that these people need to have this... dichotomy that prevents them from functioning at their full potential. Fundamentalists have some kind of psychotic break that blocks reality and logical judgement. One can only hope that the generations to come will be a bit more rational.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
Alcari
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 3:06 pm UTC
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Alcari » Wed May 30, 2007 7:01 pm UTC

Many Christians don't believe in creationism. Careful with your generalizations, chief.

I merely meant that most (if not all) creationists are christians.

It is a sad comment on human psychology that these people need to have this... dichotomy that prevents them from functioning at their full potential. Fundamentalists have some kind of psychotic break that blocks reality and logical judgement. One can only hope that the generations to come will be a bit more rational.


Unfortunatly, fundamentalists will likely raise their kids in their own image (don't most of us?)
Personally, I'd like to think that better education will solve the problem. Most overzealous creationists (especially young-earth creationists) tend to be lower-educated. If you teach people how the universe works from an early age, it helps.

Sure, quantum theory and atom-scale physics are a lot more difficult, and definatly more weird, then simply stating "God did it". But it all fits in my personal motto: "Life sucks, the universe doesn't give a crap about you, deal with it"
I'm made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.



free manga and anime music

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 30, 2007 7:05 pm UTC

I merely meant that most (if not all) creationists are christians.
Say hello to a very large proportion of Muslims.

I'm honestly surprised that you expect a two-sided approach to Creationism on the xkcd fora. Even I, most likely renowned for my unpopular opinions, find it too reprehensible to defend.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
3.14159265...
Irrational (?)
Posts: 2413
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:05 am UTC
Location: Ajax, Canada

Postby 3.14159265... » Wed May 30, 2007 7:43 pm UTC

FSM FTW
"The best times in life are the ones when you can genuinely add a "Bwa" to your "ha""- Chris Hastings

User avatar
Alcari
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 3:06 pm UTC
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Alcari » Wed May 30, 2007 8:21 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
I merely meant that most (if not all) creationists are christians.
Say hello to a very large proportion of Muslims.

Note to self THINK first...
still, feebly in my defense, muslim creationists don't seem to be rubbing it in my face as much. I'll go and hide beneath a rock for stupidity now.
I'm made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.



free manga and anime music

User avatar
3.14159265...
Irrational (?)
Posts: 2413
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:05 am UTC
Location: Ajax, Canada

Postby 3.14159265... » Wed May 30, 2007 8:31 pm UTC

Muslim creationists don't say evolution is wrong, they say science is wrong.
"The best times in life are the ones when you can genuinely add a "Bwa" to your "ha""- Chris Hastings

User avatar
bigglesworth
I feel like Biggles should have a title
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:29 pm UTC
Location: Airstrip One

Postby bigglesworth » Wed May 30, 2007 8:36 pm UTC

[sarcasm]Yes. All of them. Especially the ones creating nuclear weapons by asking Djinns to sort uranium atoms by hand [/sarcasm]

User avatar
bbctol
Super Deluxe Forum Title of DESTINYâ„¢
Posts: 3137
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:27 pm UTC
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Postby bbctol » Wed May 30, 2007 8:37 pm UTC

Thoughts on the subject: What should be taught in schools is the facts and works by reputable scientists. Then let the kids come to their own conclusions. I guarantee they will choose evolution every time. Also, it is clearly not separation of church and state.

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Wed May 30, 2007 8:41 pm UTC

bbctol wrote:Also, it is clearly not separation of church and state.


is this "museum" a state funded place? I only ask because i didn't see mention of that fact in any cursory glance at the site.
Last edited by Phenriz on Wed May 30, 2007 8:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
3.14159265...
Irrational (?)
Posts: 2413
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:05 am UTC
Location: Ajax, Canada

Postby 3.14159265... » Wed May 30, 2007 8:42 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:[sarcasm]Yes. All of them. Especially the ones creating nuclear weapons by asking Djinns to sort uranium atoms by hand [/sarcasm]


So Iran IS making nuclear weapons.

I have met alot, about 95% of all muslims who believe the creation story also say that more than 50% of science is wrong.

That bieng, ALL of astronomy, and most of Biology.

I didn't imply anywhere in there that there arn't smart muslims, just that the creationist muslims, are really really really into it. More into it than christian ones.
"The best times in life are the ones when you can genuinely add a "Bwa" to your "ha""- Chris Hastings

User avatar
bigglesworth
I feel like Biggles should have a title
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:29 pm UTC
Location: Airstrip One

Postby bigglesworth » Wed May 30, 2007 8:45 pm UTC

I just rather doubt that there are no Muslim creationists that believe science is correct. But I haven't met 95% of muslim creationists.

User avatar
mindless_drivel
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 4:06 am UTC
Location: NJ

Postby mindless_drivel » Wed May 30, 2007 8:49 pm UTC

Phenriz wrote:
bbctol wrote:Also, it is clearly not separation of church and state.


is this "museum" a state funded place? I only ask because i didn't see mention of that fact in any cursory glance at the site.


No, the museum is not state funded. It is completely paid for by private donations to an organization known as Answers in Genesis.

*Watches as the ACLU disappointedly sends its lawyers away*
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 30, 2007 8:56 pm UTC

Note to self THINK first...
still, feebly in my defense, muslim creationists don't seem to be rubbing it in my face as much. I'll go and hide beneath a rock for stupidity now.
That is because, if you were to challenge them, you would lose your face. Christian creationists just like to rub garbage in your face.

I, for one, prefer the Christians.

Then let the kids come to their own conclusions. I guarantee they will choose evolution every time.
Just like how American children choose atheism?

I think you have a bit more faith in the rationality of the average person than most.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Wed May 30, 2007 9:09 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:That is because, if you were to challenge them, you would lose your face. Christian creationists just like to rub garbage in your face.

I, for one, prefer the Christians.


obviously you didn't read enough about the crusades, the holocaust, the history of easter, or Jerry Falwell.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 30, 2007 9:13 pm UTC

obviously you didn't read enough about the crusades, the holocaust, the history of easter, or Jerry Falwell.
Actually, I *did* read enough about Jerry Falwell. He was a nicer person than people make him out to be, especially when it comes to homosexuals.

Do you honestly believe that I am not aware of history? Modern Christians are rather different than medieval Christians. Modern Muslims are rather similar to medieval Christians. I suppose I could have clarified "Modern Christian creationists", but that struck me as unnecessary, given the lack of medieval Christian creationists for several centuries.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
bbctol
Super Deluxe Forum Title of DESTINYâ„¢
Posts: 3137
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:27 pm UTC
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Postby bbctol » Wed May 30, 2007 9:31 pm UTC

Phenriz wrote:
bbctol wrote:Also, it is clearly not separation of church and state.


is this "museum" a state funded place? I only ask because i didn't see mention of that fact in any cursory glance at the site.


I was referring to the question at the top, "should we teach this in school."
Last edited by bbctol on Wed May 30, 2007 9:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Wed May 30, 2007 9:32 pm UTC

ahh ok, my bad.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Postby space_raptor » Wed May 30, 2007 9:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:obviously you didn't read enough about the crusades, the holocaust, the history of easter, or Jerry Falwell.

I don't think you read enough about those things. The reasons for them are more complex than "Oh me yarm Christians".

Plus, they happened a long time ago, and if you think we should judge today's Christians based on those things, you are wrong. :)
There are certainly historical lessons to be learned, though. Well, maybe with the exception of Jerry Falwell.

EDIT: Also, thread godwinned?
Last edited by space_raptor on Wed May 30, 2007 9:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
mindless_drivel
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 4:06 am UTC
Location: NJ

Postby mindless_drivel » Wed May 30, 2007 9:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Vaniver wrote:That is because, if you were to challenge them, you would lose your face. Christian creationists just like to rub garbage in your face.

I, for one, prefer the Christians.


obviously you didn't read enough about ... the holocaust ... or Jerry Falwell.


If my memory serves me well, the holocaust was caused by a group of people believing in eugenics, the false belief that man should help evolution along by killing off people who had "lesser" genetic material. How do Christians fit into this?

Also, as far as I know, Jerry Falwell never killed anyone.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Dead Flag
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:35 pm UTC

Postby Dead Flag » Wed May 30, 2007 10:04 pm UTC

the Jews and their lies written by Martin Luther

User avatar
mindless_drivel
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 4:06 am UTC
Location: NJ

Postby mindless_drivel » Wed May 30, 2007 10:17 pm UTC

Dead Flag wrote:the Jews and their lies written by Martin Luther


Yes, so medieval Christians didn't like Jews. Your point is? I still don't see the connection between Christianity and a tragedy that was brought about by faulty scientific reasoning.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

miles01110
Posts: 611
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:39 pm UTC

Postby miles01110 » Wed May 30, 2007 10:24 pm UTC

In my opinion, creationism and evolution/big bang aren't necessarily exclusive in that they explain different things. Creationism should be limited to explaining spiritual birth, while evolution and the big bang explain physical existence.

But yeah, this is not the view held by many creationists. Unfortunately, they consider creationism "science" and happen to be wrong.

Oh, ID sucks too. I saw a really funny Venn diagram about ID on thefunniest.info the other day, I wish I had saved the link....

(Maybe someone could find it?)

User avatar
Dead Flag
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:35 pm UTC

Postby Dead Flag » Wed May 30, 2007 10:24 pm UTC

Faulty reasoning is unscientific by nature.

User avatar
mindless_drivel
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 4:06 am UTC
Location: NJ

Postby mindless_drivel » Wed May 30, 2007 10:32 pm UTC

Dead Flag wrote:Faulty reasoning is unscientific by nature.


Nice way to skirt around the real issue. Fine, what I meant to say was faulty reasoning based on science.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Wed May 30, 2007 10:33 pm UTC

Faulty reasoning is unscientific by nature.
Do you care to respond to his legitimate criticism as well?
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
Patashu
Answerful Bignitude
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:54 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Patashu » Wed May 30, 2007 10:37 pm UTC

The idea of the creation of the Earth 6000 years ago then a big flood 4000 years is rather ludicruous, since all evidence aside from the Bible points away from that.

Old earth creationism I can empathize with, at least.

User avatar
Woxor
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:28 pm UTC

Postby Woxor » Thu May 31, 2007 1:31 am UTC

Phenriz wrote:ID is (in my opinion) a weak way for some people weak in their faith, to try and mesh science and religion, in order to try and validate what they "believe".

I think it's more that they're weak in their science than in their faith. It's unfair to call people unscientific and then question their faith when they try to justify their beliefs scientifically. They're not reaching the right conclusions, but they're trying.

Unrelated note: there is at least one young Earth creationist that I know of on the faculty at my old school in Texas. Let me clarify: he is a professor of biology at a very large public university. I'm pretty sure he was not the only one.

User avatar
darwinsbeagle
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 9:15 am UTC

Postby darwinsbeagle » Thu May 31, 2007 4:51 am UTC

Belief in creationism signifies either an ignorance of science (somewhat excusable) or preference of fairy tale over verifiable fact (completely inexcusable).

I could rant against creationists for hours, but in this forum it seems I'd just be preaching to the choir.
When Hell freezes over, I'll ski there too.

User avatar
Brian
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 1:18 am UTC
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Postby Brian » Thu May 31, 2007 5:01 am UTC

This thread kind of went off-topic, but I'm not sure I fully understand what the topic is in the first place. Can the OP re-state what he/she was trying to offer up for discussion? Saying, "There is a creationism museum going up. Discuss." isn't very useful.

User avatar
Woxor
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:28 pm UTC

Postby Woxor » Thu May 31, 2007 6:17 am UTC

darwinsbeagle wrote:preference of fairy tale over verifiable fact (completely inexcusable).

This reminds me of the "truth or beauty" question.

I don't really see why an emotional inability to be logically rigorous is completely inexcusable. I mean, it's certainly prohibited by my personal view of what it means to be an adult, but that doesn't mean that someone is a bad person because they can't be logical about certain things. In fact, most people I know directly who believe that nonsense (creationism, that is) have it compartmentalized pretty well and are very "good" people in most of the usual ways.

krunzi
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:42 am UTC

Postby krunzi » Thu May 31, 2007 10:45 am UTC

hi, i saw this discussion and thought i'd drop a link to some muslim "creationists". Don't really know if they can be defined as creationists like christians, since they just take all the things we know and say it's written in the qur'an or some similar place. Anyway here it is:

http://www.speed-light.info/

popple
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 9:11 pm UTC
Location: Guernsey

Postby popple » Thu May 31, 2007 12:01 pm UTC

Brian wrote:This thread kind of went off-topic, but I'm not sure I fully understand what the topic is in the first place. Can the OP re-state what he/she was trying to offer up for discussion? Saying, "There is a creationism museum going up. Discuss." isn't very useful.


Firstly, I'm a 'he', secondly, i was just wondering what people thought of creationism (I supose I should have guessed what the answer would be), and also what people's views were on (young-earth) creationism/ID being taught in public classes.

To put that into a question: Is it right/acceptable for children to be indoctrinated about things like ths in public classes, or told that its an equally valid scientific theory?

(Also as a side, what do you think of these type of people getting a strong foot-hold in US government?)
Image

popple.. from snap, crack, and popple... thats the line isn't it? isn't it?

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:59 pm UTC
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Postby Andrew » Thu May 31, 2007 1:54 pm UTC

popple wrote:To put that into a question: Is it right/acceptable for children to be indoctrinated about things like ths in public classes, or told that its an equally valid scientific theory?

I can't think of any way of phrasing that question that doesn't immediately turn into "Is The Pope Atheist?" in my head. You can't pay teachers to tell children lies. It... I don't even know how to explain something so mind-bogglingly simple and obvious in any more depth.

Belial wrote:Yeah, one of my friends at college was a very intelligent boy who was majoring in biology (concentration on cellular biology, I think), and was a staunch creationist. I think, for him, it just came down to choosing not to see the places where that didn't make sense.

in fairness, if one of my friends was a velociraptor I'd probably question the standard model of natural history too.

User avatar
Darth Eru
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 10:52 pm UTC

Postby Darth Eru » Thu May 31, 2007 1:57 pm UTC

I don't think creationism has been entirely defined here. I'm a christian, and if asked I would say I was a creationist, but I don't think that would mean what you guys are thinking. I believe God created the universe and everything in it, but that doesn't mean I believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, or that evolution isn't by far the most likely way we came about, but it does mean that I believe God caused it and in some cases directly intervened, and in some cases not.

As to the specific topic, I don't think creationism in any form should be taught as science, as in all cases it is a matter of faith. I think people should be made aware of the different religions out there.
Signature:
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit

There are 2 types of people in the world: those who know hexadecimal, and those who don't.

Dvorak > QWERTY


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests