Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

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Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby General_Norris » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:17 pm UTC

After some time looking around for someone that treated my hair with more care I decided to have my hair cut in a small barbershop down the street. The man was careful, gentle and really cheap making it the best hairdresser I have ever tried. He is also muslim and and inmigrant from Morocco.

His shop is labelled as "Men's hairdresser" and I don't think his religion would allow him to have female costumers. I also don't think he has much experience with long hair and most of his customers are other muslim inmigrants who prefer their hair very short.

Now, it can be argued that by hiring his services I'm supporting a sexist practise. Am I? Should I change my hairdresser?

However I don't think it's that easy. If I leave I doubt I would change anything while my presence as one of the few native costumers has positive benefits in the neighborhood. Most natives are wary of muslim shops because they are nerver used by natives in a vicious circle. I also think I could be a positive influence to my hairdresser when it comes to certain topics.

So,w hat do you think? I have no idea, to be frank.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm UTC

I think in this specific case, overall it's better to go to him for service, assuming you're satisfied.

Perhaps the degree of separation between the sexes he requires seems like sexism, but I don't consider it problematic to visit businesses that have "men only" and "women only" restrooms, even though I'm sure some people would claim that forced segregation is wrong. This is not directly similar, but apparently he is not comfortable with touching the hair of strange women. While that may seem sexist, avoiding his shop would contribute to the segregation between Muslim culture and others. So overall, if you're a satisfied customer, you should patronize him.

IMHO
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby TaintedDeity » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:33 pm UTC

I think it is dishonest of him to say 'men-only' when he more likely means 'haircuts associated with men'.
I'm quite sure his haircutting skill is not related to whether or not his customer is male or female, rather the specific style he has been trained and practiced at doing.
In that sense I think his business reinforces gender roles (and dull hairstyles but that's hardly related ;))
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:47 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I think it is dishonest of him to say 'men-only' when he more likely means 'haircuts associated with men'.
I'm quite sure his haircutting skill is not related to whether or not his customer is male or female, rather the specific style he has been trained and practiced at doing.
In that sense I think his business reinforces gender roles (and dull hairstyles but that's hardly related ;))

I suspect he wouldn't feel comfortable servicing female patrons, even if they wanted a traditionally "male" haircut. I also suspect he would agree to service a man with long hair. But maybe you're right.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Dark567 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:48 pm UTC

Would you go to a hair dresser that only catered to one sex if it weren't for religious rules? There are many stylists who only cater to one gender, just because they specialize in that particular sexes hair styles. I generally don't think there is anything wrong with this.

I guess if you think the reasoning of the hairdressers choice to cater to only one sex should impact your decision to employ him, than you shouldn't. Generally though his and his religion's sexism is his problem, not yours and as long as you are okay with hiring a single sex hair dresser anyway, it shouldn't be a problem.\
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:59 pm UTC

There's no difference between this and a tailor that only makes men's clothes*; it's what the individual has skill and practice in doing. That being said, they're certainly catering to existing gender stereotypes in the same way clothing retailers are.

Gender specific specialization of services isn't inherently bad just because it caters to only a single gender -- take Gynecology for example. Specific needs and whatnot.


* Unless there's a sign banning women, in which case the next question is whether it's a religious restriction. An affirmative answer in either case would open this up to a whole different set of topics.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Griffin » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:56 pm UTC

I think whats worse is that pretty much every good hair place will charge a woman twice as much for the same haircut.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:19 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:I think whats worse is that pretty much every good hair place will charge a woman twice as much for the same haircut.

I agree.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Dark567 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:I think whats worse is that pretty much every good hair place will charge a woman twice as much for the same haircut.


Thats generally because womens "Style" cuts are much more intensive then mens. Usually, if a women wants a buzz cut, they will give her a mens rate or even lower.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Yacob » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:14 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I think it is dishonest of him to say 'men-only' when he more likely means 'haircuts associated with men'.
I'm quite sure his haircutting skill is not related to whether or not his customer is male or female, rather the specific style he has been trained and practiced at doing.
In that sense I think his business reinforces gender roles (and dull hairstyles but that's hardly related ;))


People like normal routines, and I feel as if its rather stereotypical and seen as normal that a particular hairdresser is focused upon either male or female patrons. He could possibly be reinforcing that he cuts the hair of men and that men should go there because he is specialized in hair cutting for men. I would have to agree that women are charged extra, but they place higher importance upon their hair so the demand is higher, or at least generally.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby TaintedDeity » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

Yacob wrote:
TaintedDeity wrote:I think it is dishonest of him to say 'men-only' when he more likely means 'haircuts associated with men'.
I'm quite sure his haircutting skill is not related to whether or not his customer is male or female, rather the specific style he has been trained and practiced at doing.
In that sense I think his business reinforces gender roles (and dull hairstyles but that's hardly related ;))


People like normal routines, and I feel as if its rather stereotypical and seen as normal that a particular hairdresser is focused upon either male or female patrons. He could possibly be reinforcing that he cuts the hair of men and that men should go there because he is specialized in hair cutting for men. I would have to agree that women are charged extra, but they place higher importance upon their hair so the demand is higher, or at least generally.
Why does it being seen as normal make it an ok thing? Furthermore, he isn't specialised in cutting hair for men, he is specialised in cutting hairstyles that a lot of men wear. They're similar but far from the same.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:29 pm UTC

Which brings us to a question of semantics: What is meant when someone says a 'men's hairdresser'? Unless there's some specific prohibition (again, another issue entirely) that we're not aware of, the sign to me would indicate only a specialization.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:06 pm UTC

I know I have tried to have my lady hair cut by a barber and they turned me away saying they only cut men's hair.
And on the side of price, it sort of makes sense that they would charge men less since men go more often (I don't know many women who need trims more than 2 times a year)
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Glmclain » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:19 pm UTC

There's a difference between a sign saying "Men's Haircuts" and "No women allowed." If I saw that sign I would assume "I've been trained to give haircuts to men and that's what I do best" not "I will not service women."

The sign is too vague to draw an accurate assessment.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:39 pm UTC

In my undergrad I routinely went to a barber shop where the old, gnarled curmudgeon would often talk about his gold panning successes in a nearby time, including dealing with poachers and their ilk. I kept going back to him because he used a straight razor, had a face like Danny Trejo, and had the fairest daughter in the lands...
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby TaintedDeity » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:46 pm UTC

@Glmclain
Sorry to nitpick but is 'give haircuts to men' strictly correct? Plenty of men wear nontypical hairstyles that a barber could not do with the same skill as those typically associated with men.
Like I said before, it's not "Men's Haircuts" it's "Haircuts typically associated with men".
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Eastwinn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:22 pm UTC

I think "Men's Styles Only" would be a better way to put it. If a lady came in asking for a haircut that's typical of men, I wouldn't deny her. Not much different than a Women's Clothing Store.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Ulc » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:14 am UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:(and dull hairstyles but that's hardly related ;))


Be nice.

Some of us looks really, really stupid with anything but a very lose haircut.

I'd say that going to a "no women allowed" hairdresser is quite different from going to a "men's hairdresser", where the latter merely states that he is specialized in dealing with men's hair, and the haircuts that are common to us.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby lutzj » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:35 am UTC

For some devout Muslims, touching (even seeing) a strange woman's hair is equivalent in taboo to seeing any other part of her body. You wouldn't demand that a male clothing-store employee help a female customer try bras on if he was uncomfortable about it, would you?
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby mandachan » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:07 am UTC

I don't see a problem with it. It's dealing with different styles of ... styles, and different clientele. Maybe the "guys only" barbers don't want to deal with the drama and nit-pickings of women's beauty issues. And a woman getting charged an extra 10 bucks for a haircut just 'cause she has long hair would be ok socially if a female hairdresser did it, but heaven forbid if a barber charged the long hair fee that 'cause it'd cause a big sexism stink.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:28 am UTC

mandachan wrote:I don't see a problem with it ... Maybe the "guys only" barbers don't want to deal with the drama and nit-pickings of women's beauty issues.

When you believe the second sentiment, why ever wouldn't you feel the first?

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby meatyochre » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:30 am UTC

mandachan wrote:Maybe the "guys only" barbers don't want to deal with the drama and nit-pickings of women's beauty issues.

Not every woman is dramatic or nitpicky about her hairstyle.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby mandachan » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:33 am UTC

meatyochre wrote:
mandachan wrote:Maybe the "guys only" barbers don't want to deal with the drama and nit-pickings of women's beauty issues.

Not every woman is dramatic or nitpicky about her hairstyle.


I know. I'm in the "I don't care what you want to do to my hair, just trim it and get me out of this chair" department. I'm just saying that a lot of people are particular about their hair, among other things.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:36 am UTC

mandachan wrote:... I'm just saying that a lot of people are particular about their hair, among other things.
Now that you've switched out 'women' for the more generic 'people' we have something we can work with.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby mandachan » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:06 am UTC

Azrael wrote:Now that you've switched out 'women' for the more generic 'people' we have something we can work with.
True, considering my boyfriend is more particular than me about when and how he gets his hair cut...
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby The EGE » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:13 am UTC

mandachan wrote:
Azrael wrote:Now that you've switched out 'women' for the more generic 'people' we have something we can work with.
True, considering my boyfriend is more particular than me about when and how he gets his hair cut...


Only true because an extra two inches of hair on me means I look like a scraggly mop. Two inches on you doesn't change much.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Vaniver » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:38 pm UTC

Specialization is a good thing. We don't complain that OBGYNs only see women.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:12 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:For some devout Muslims, touching (even seeing) a strange woman's hair is equivalent in taboo to seeing any other part of her body. You wouldn't demand that a male clothing-store employee help a female customer try bras on if he was uncomfortable about it, would you?

My guess would be this is the real issue, not style specialization. But nearly everyone else seems to disagree or be on a rabbit trail.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Vaniver » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:My guess would be this is the real issue, not style specialization. But nearly everyone else seems to disagree or be on a rabbit trail.
So then the question is "should I discriminate against someone because I think they might discriminate against others because of their suspected group membership?" Because when I put it that way...
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

Wouldn't it be "Should I discriminate against someone because I feel their religious views are discriminatory"?

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby General_Norris » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:56 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Wouldn't it be "Should I discriminate against someone because I feel their religious views are discriminatory"?

Exactly.

If this man were to specialize on "haircuts that look well on a male body", that's it, an artistic choice that's fine by me. But I don't feel that not accepting female costumers because of their religion is fine. It may be, that's why I'm asking.

TainedDeity mentions that it amy reinforce gender roles. Well, it may be a side-effect but chaning your artistic choices based on the shape/colour/aestethics of the person you are applying them on is not reinforcing gender roles. A woman is not playing a role of anything if she is herself in her own body so as to speak.

EDIT: We dull hair people don't like your cool ponytail and glasses either! :lol:

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Azrael » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:16 pm UTC

General_Norris wrote:
Azrael wrote:Wouldn't it be "Should I discriminate against someone because I feel their religious views are discriminatory"?

...I don't feel that not accepting female costumers because of their religion is fine.

Yeah, this one is tough. I wouldn't mind an Amish barber refusing to use electric clippers, for instance. But I would mind if a Catholic barber refused to cut the hair of someone who supported reproductive or gay rights.

Let's flip to the medical profession for a precedent: A practicing Muslim doctor in a western(ish) / secular(ish) society would not allowed to defer treatment to another doctor because the patient was a woman, would they? Similarly, a Muslim woman in the same society is certainly allowed to choose a female Muslim doctor, and if she refuses emergency treatment from another doctor, then the hospital has to comply. So somewhere there is clearly a line where a religious belief, profession and 'host' culture clash and the religion looses out, but it seems to be the top-down (supply side) case where it's unacceptable.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:41 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
Azrael wrote:Wouldn't it be "Should I discriminate against someone because I feel their religious views are discriminatory"?

...I don't feel that not accepting female costumers because of their religion is fine.

Yeah, this one is tough. I wouldn't mind an Amish barber refusing to use electric clippers, for instance. But I would mind if a Catholic barber refused to cut the hair of someone who supported reproductive or gay rights.

Let's flip to the medical profession for a precedent: A practicing Muslim doctor in a western(ish) / secular(ish) society would not allowed to defer treatment to another doctor because the patient was a woman, would they? Similarly, a Muslim woman in the same society is certainly allowed to choose a female Muslim doctor, and if she refuses emergency treatment from another doctor, then the hospital has to comply. So somewhere there is clearly a line where a religious belief, profession and 'host' culture clash and the religion looses out, but it seems to be the top-down (supply side) case where it's unacceptable.

The part that seems to cross the line to me would be a doctor refusing to give emergency treatment, thus putting someone at risk. If a male doctor refused to do breast implants, mammograms, or pap smears, that's another story.

I guess I'm saying that if a barber of one gender chooses not to service the other gender for religious regions, I don't see it as problematic enough to refuse to use his or her business, and thus increase cultural segregation.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby TaintedDeity » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:33 pm UTC

General_Norris wrote:
Azrael wrote:Wouldn't it be "Should I discriminate against someone because I feel their religious views are discriminatory"?

Exactly.

If this man were to specialize on "haircuts that look well on a male body", that's it, an artistic choice that's fine by me. But I don't feel that not accepting female costumers because of their religion is fine. It may be, that's why I'm asking.

TainedDeity mentions that it amy reinforce gender roles. Well, it may be a side-effect but chaning your artistic choices based on the shape/colour/aestethics of the person you are applying them on is not reinforcing gender roles. A woman is not playing a role of anything if she is herself in her own body so as to speak.

EDIT: We dull hair people don't like your cool ponytail and glasses either! :lol:
I guess I don't like the implication that men have some haircuts and women have others. It's too binary and too separate, but that might be just me. Somebody's right to religion might supercede somebody's right to a haircut but I still dislike the element of segregation.
Also, I'm beginning to think the dull hair comment was a mistake :P
I don't think the comparison to gynecologists is relevant. A gynecologist only accepts the female sex because they have female sex organs. When it comes to haircuts there's no sexual difference, it's based on gender.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:42 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I don't think the comparison to gynecologists is relevant. A gynecologist only accepts the female sex because they have female sex organs. When it comes to haircuts there's no sexual difference, it's based on gender.
Let's imagine the barber is a straight male who is used to a very different standard of modesty and propriety, and who views lust as evil.

Handling a woman's hair could be (sexually) arousing to him.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby TaintedDeity » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

Sorry, i can see you're making a point but I'm not really sure what it is or what it relates to...
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:46 pm UTC

I was just saying only servicing men could be based on sexual reasons, not gender roles.
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby ImagingGeek » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:56 pm UTC

Given that women-only businesses exist (gyms being the most common example), I see no issue with there being no men-only facilities as well. Private individuals should have every right to decide whom and whom not they do business with.

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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:18 pm UTC

ImagingGeek wrote:Private individuals should have every right to decide whom and whom not they do business with.
In that case, the public should likewise have every right to cut those private individuals' businesses off from the public water supply, public sewage lines, publicly maintained roads, and federally regulated interstate commerce...
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Re: Men-only hairdresser. Not bad or supporting sexism?

Postby JBJ » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
ImagingGeek wrote:Private individuals should have every right to decide whom and whom not they do business with.
In that case, the public should likewise have every right to cut those private individuals' businesses off from the public water supply, public sewage lines, publicly maintained roads, and federally regulated interstate commerce...

Did they forget to pay their water bill, sewage bill, property or income taxes? The public has every right to not do business with them and let the business go under. Cutting someone off from public services that they pay into seems a bit harsh.
So, you sacked the cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker?
The second cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker I've sacked since the sixth sitting sheet slitter got sick.


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