pizzazz wrote: Especially if getting pregnant--and therefore all related legal and natural consequences--is a known possibility of having sex (even with contraception, which does fail), and the woman chooses to have sex (this is key) anyway, then she is taking responsibility for the consequences of having sex. She suffers the consequences, instead of the baby (who is innocent).
I see, so women are incubators with no will of their own. Also, we avert "consequences" every day, what is medicine but averting the "consequence" of death? How is this any different from any other medical procedure to alter some bodily function/feature?
What are you talking about? On the contrary, my entire argument is founded on the basis of the woman having free will and thus the ability to decide whether to get pregnant or not. How is it different? Well, most medical procedures are for the health of the person getting them, for one, and you'll note I already said I would let abortion be legal in the case of danger to the mother. Secondly (this is the real big one), most medical procedures also do not affect anyone else--you kill off bacteria or other non-human infectious agents, remove toxins, adjust your own body's physical, chemical, or electrical makeup, etc. Obviously some people would not consider the fetus as someone
else, but that part is not obvious (I suppose I'll add that people tend not to choose to get sick, but as humans trump bacteria, this only becomes relevant in the pregnancy case).
So, give me an example of a medical procedure that affects another human and is not for the health of the patient. The closest I can think of might be separation of conjoined twins, but that would probably still have both consent of the two involved and health reasons.
The Great Hippo wrote:
pizzazz wrote:We don't give babies complete self-determination because they are not considered capable of rational self-determination. However, they are still living humans, and thus gain protection of life under the law.
What compelling reason is there to assume that any person, upon doing anything, should have any rights at all, even living?
Well, we need to have some
vague criteria as to what point something counts as human; what should that criteria be? My instinct is toward anything involving cognizance or sapience, but there are some deep problems there, I admit.
That's certainly true, and it's very important to the debate, though there is not just one differentiation (human v. non-human). Animals have some protection under the law, though their lives are considered of lesser value than those of humans. Even plants can be protected by the law if they are thought to be too low in population.
pizzazz wrote:Are you talking about the mother killing the child in that case being legal or being moral? Because it certainly isn't the first, and it doesn't seems like anyone who thinks abortion is wrong, plus lots of other people, are going to think its the second. Especially if getting pregnant--and therefore all related legal and natural consequences--is a known possibility of having sex (even with contraception, which does fail), and the woman chooses to have sex (this is key) anyway, then she is taking responsibility for the consequences of having sex. She suffers the consequences, instead of the baby (who is innocent).
Moral. I also don't think choosing to have sex is key to the moral argument at all; I accept that pregnancy may be a potential consequence of sex, but not that it implies any degree of moral obligation--walking down an alleyway implies a potential consequence of getting mugged, but that doesn't in any way imply that the mugging is my fault, or that I should take responsibility for what happened.[/quote]
I don't think the mugging analogy is very good. First of all, the government's primary job, its raison d'etre in many countries, is to protect its citizens on public property, not to shelter them from inconvenience. You have a right to be on public property, but not hurt others on it. Secondly, if you choose to walk down an alley, you are only putting yourself at risk; in getting pregnant, you make the choice to bring someone else into existence.