Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

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Postby Belial » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:20 pm UTC

Spend an hour near a playground without earphones. It'll clear that right up.
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Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:27 pm UTC

Insignificant Deification wrote:Further, what Gunfingers said. Indoctrination is really tough stuff to break. After all, that's how religion operates. :wink:

That is true... the 6 o'clock news reminds me of that every night... *sigh*

Society does, by and large, suck ass. If it didn't, equality wouldn't be an issue. I do my best, and if anyone knew my wife, you wouldn't think for a moment that I was a sexist (and if anyone says I am, she'll kick my ass).

Belial wrote:Spend an hour near a playground without earphones. It'll clear that right up.

Forget a whole playground, let my son warm up his 'inside voice'.

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Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:30 pm UTC

That reminds me of Hogfather...

Terry Pratchett roughly wrote:The sound of children playing from a distance, not too far to hear, but not too close to hear what they're actually saying (but somewhere in there, he mentions that is exactly the right distance, as *your* innocence would be shattered if you heard what they were saying).
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Postby zenten » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:41 pm UTC

Phenriz wrote:
zenten wrote:
Gunfingers wrote:A long time ago women were a method of making children and achieving brief sexual gratification. Those times are past in most social circles and can be assumed irrelevant to this particular discussion. He didn't word his statement well, but his point (or that part of it anyway) is valid. At least here in the states.


This still happens in the states, so fixed.


fixed, and the point you're making is irrelevant as we're talking about now.


No, I was talking about now, in the states. Unless you're talking about the law only, and not how people actually act.

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Postby cephalopod9 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:55 am UTC

I was thinking about this yesterday; It's wrong to say feminism* is obsolete or overdone, but we do need to look at the other half of things. Far from undoing what we've done, we need to complete the picture. I'm hesitant to say 'masculinism' just because it seems to go along with "womens are too powerful, men are the victims, we should go backwards now" and crap of that sort (dang, I'm having an irritable day, probably should have waited until later), but we can't really hope to change the treatment of women without at least analyzing the treatment of men. (I'm really not trying to be inflamatory, or accusatory, just to get my point accross as quickly as possible). While we're working to make sure women can be construction workers and ceo's, we need to be making sure men can be nurses and school teachers. As I've said, I'm not about to say every position ever should be perfectly even always, but the oppurtunities shouldn't be biased (Last I heard we don't do quotas anymore anyways, it's more of an all else being equal thing. I could be wrong tho'). I'd like to see it more often recognized that men can be caring, delicate, and pretty. The "we're just made that way" type arguments kind of irritate me, I have to admit. It's too much of the defeatist-"we're no better than our programming" sort of stuff for me to agree with it much. Not that I would say we should change just to change... I'm wandering off topic.

*and I mean feminism as it is defined, trying to get equal treatment, not as however many people missuse it. 'Women are better than men' is not feminism. 500 people can call a scorpion a butterfly, but that does not mean you have been stung by a butterfly.
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Postby Khonsu » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:02 am UTC

Aw, shit, guys, can't we all just leave each other alone unless some of us want to fuck the other? Women-only clubs, men-only clubs--we have enough trouble getting Americans to fucking exercise at all, let alone worry about gender-specific spas n' shit. D:

I know this was on the first damn page, but as a feminist and a wordskank, I have to say: feminists who spell words incorrectly because it has the word 'man' in them (as John Leguizamo jokes "Why 'dictionary?' Why not 'pussitionary!' Why 'history?' why not 'herstory?'") have no fucking clue about etymology OR the really important issues, and make me want to break stuff. 'Womyn' is not a goddamn word, and you're cruel towards transwomen, so fuck you AND your 'womyn-born-womyn' policy, Michigan Womyn's Music Festival!

PS: Until pharmaceutical companies stop implying women's vaginas are disgusting and need to be cleansed artificially as if soap and water don't cut it (old Lysol ads, scented tampons/pads, douche, etc.), or they start making similar products for ballsweat, I'm going to mistrust Big Pharma. Is that radical of me? I just think it's mean that they imply my sweat and menstrual gunk is somehow grosser than skidmarks or ballsweat. It's all the same sweat! :roll:
Last edited by Khonsu on Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:07 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:05 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:I'd like to see it more often recognized that men can be caring, delicate, and pretty. The "we're just made that way" type arguments kind of irritate me, I have to admit. It's too much of the defeatist-"we're no better than our programming" sort of stuff for me to agree with it much.


I agree -- and arguments for the abandonment of restrictive gender roles, for both sexes, I would say *is* a feminist argument.

Khonsu wrote:Also, feminists who spell words incorrectly because it has the word 'man' in them have no fucking clue about etymology and make me want to break stuff. "Womyn" is not a goddamn word, and you're cruel towards transwomen, so fuck you AND your womyn-born-womyn policy, MWMF!


Oh dear god yes. "Womyn" is a linguistic fallacy.

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Postby Khonsu » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:09 am UTC

I edited that paragraph, but the sentiment is the same.

'Womyn' makes me want to hurl. I mean, it's like 'Renn Fayre' or 'vampyre' or 'werewulfe' and other fantasy-nerd spellings--it's just dumb. I mean, I AM a fantasy-nerd, but my spelling's consistant!

As to what celphalopod said: 'We're no better than our programming' is what makes me hate Ladder Theory so. It's really sexist regardless of what gender you're talking about. The fact that, when someone (either sex, any gender) goes beyond programming to be both physically and emotionally and logically strong, people tend to throw out the epithets just makes me think they're very, very jealous.

PS: lol pussitionary.

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Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:07 am UTC

Khonsu wrote:PS: Until pharmaceutical companies stop implying women's vaginas are disgusting and need to be cleansed artificially as if soap and water don't cut it (old Lysol ads, scented tampons/pads, douche, etc.), or they start making similar products for ballsweat, I'm going to mistrust Big Pharma. Is that radical of me? I just think it's mean that they imply my sweat and menstrual gunk is somehow grosser than skidmarks or ballsweat. It's all the same sweat! :roll:

Isn't she precious?

That's just it, there's COLOSSAL economic movements DEDICATED to proving that women are different from men, and SOCIAL movements dedicated to proving the opposite. Just the same issue I have with religion, international politics, racism, it goes for feminism: SHUT THE FUCK UP AND BE NICE.

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Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:32 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Khonsu wrote:PS: Until pharmaceutical companies stop implying women's vaginas are disgusting and need to be cleansed artificially as if soap and water don't cut it (old Lysol ads, scented tampons/pads, douche, etc.), or they start making similar products for ballsweat, I'm going to mistrust Big Pharma. Is that radical of me? I just think it's mean that they imply my sweat and menstrual gunk is somehow grosser than skidmarks or ballsweat. It's all the same sweat! :roll:

Isn't she precious?

That's just it, there's COLOSSAL economic movements DEDICATED to proving that women are different from men, and SOCIAL movements dedicated to proving the opposite. Just the same issue I have with religion, international politics, racism, it goes for feminism: SHUT THE FUCK UP AND BE NICE.


Huh?

Clearly I'm missing a piece of this conversation. Why shouldn't we talk about it?

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby squealer » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:23 am UTC

At the public library I formerly worked at, we had a female customer come in all the time complaining about her ex-husband, followed by many generalisations about every other male on Earth. OK, so she's been hurt by a man. I've been hurt by women before, but you don't hear me bagging women in general!

She came in one day spouting off her displeasure in something; 'Well, it's a man's creation, no wonder its so useless'

I responded, 'That's a bit sexist isn't it?' She immediately shot back with 'And men aren't?'
I wanted to say "NO! Men aren't sexist! Some men are, some women are as well." But all I could do was shake my head in disbelief.
I can't believe the attitude of some people. Talk like that doesn't help anyone.

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Random832 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:04 pm UTC

squealer wrote:At the public library I formerly worked at, we had a female customer come in all the time complaining about her ex-husband, followed by many generalisations about every other male on Earth. OK, so she's been hurt by a man. I've been hurt by women before, but you don't hear me bagging women in general!

She came in one day spouting off her displeasure in something; 'Well, it's a man's creation, no wonder its so useless'

I responded, 'That's a bit sexist isn't it?' She immediately shot back with 'And men aren't?'
I wanted to say "NO! Men aren't sexist! Some men are, some women are as well." But all I could do was shake my head in disbelief.
I can't believe the attitude of some people. Talk like that doesn't help anyone.


Your response should have been "I'm not." That might have gotten through to her; it's hard to dehumanize someone to their face.

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Re:

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:30 am UTC

Sort of replying to 6 whole pages here...
mister k wrote:OH NOES IT IS SO HARD TO BE WHITE AND MALE THESE DAYS!!! SOMETIMES WOMEN GET SOME MINOR ADVANTAGES OVER MEN- LOOK AT THESE ANECDOTAL EXAMPLES!!!!

Being white and male makes you part of a heavily priveleged and over represented group in society. Thanks to hundreds of years of discrimination we are over represented in every job sector and political position. Yes, discrimination of any form is probably wrong, but I find it hilarious to claim that THAT is the issue at hand. Lets cope with massive pay gaps and the still wide spread domestic abuse of women before moving on to minor examples of discrimination against men, shall we?

I call bullshit.

The actually, factually privileged group of white males is extraordinarily small (hence why not all white men attend Yale or Harvard). However, "white male" has always been deliberately defined as a big-tent group. A male entrepreneur from Russia counts as a white male, and so does a university student from Tornado Alley who finds himself the first in his family to attend college. Both get crucified for the sins of the White Male right along with George W. Bush (who actually comes from privilege, yemach shmo).

This is why men, even more so nominally "white" men, apply to "any minority who will take them". A certain discourse, less diluted in more liberal environments, states that if we are not minorities, we are oppressors of minorities.

Besides, it's not my fault that a drunk Cossack raped one of my female ancestors or that one of my non-white ancestors married a white woman (with her undergoing extreme secrecy, since converts to Judaism were usually treated quite harshly). It's not my fault that an otherwise Semitic gene line became crossed with "white" genes (actually making it hardier in the process), and I shouldn't even have to explain this or justify it. I didn't choose my skin color or sex any more than you chose yours, and since I got the "majority" roll of the dice I actually get less privilege than a minority (short one free 10-day vacation this winter) since my family has neither old money nor older connections.

You should know that a depressingly large number of people on these boards do infact not support humans rights, as in, the ones agreed upon by most, or all nations.
Well a majority I still do, but .. yeah.

Tell you what... You give me an enumerated list of "human rights", and I will tell you whether I assent to that list.

A side note, but I despise the way in which any number of unjust and excessive claims to privilege are made under the banner of abstract "human rights".
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:29 pm UTC

I know of several privileges I get just for being male, and several I get for being white.

I'll likely never be referred to as "My neighbor's husband" for one. - advantage:Male
I can walk down a street at 3am and, unless I'm carrying something unusual, will never have a police officer stop to chat with me for a moment.- advantage:White
If I run for public office, there will never be "Are we ready for a White/Male candidate?" questions. That thought wouldn't even occur to someone.- advantage:White
No one's going to say "SecondTalon's so polite and well-spoken for a white guy."- advantage:White
I can walk into an autoparts store, ask for a part, and not be questioned as to whether or not I need it - advantage:Male : and if I continue to wander the store after receiving my part, I'll likely not be suspected as a potential thief. - advantage:White

Just because I don't have a Get-This-Honkey-Out-Of-Jail-Free code tattooed on my penis doesn't mean I don't get advantages simply due to the ethnic background of my parents and the happenstance of my gender. And just because they're not obvious, tangible benefits doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:34 pm UTC

Oh yeah, for much that reason, I hate going to the mechanic with my girlfriend. Mostly because I don't know shit about cars, and she was raised by a mechanic. And yet the mechanics always kindof look at me like they expect *me* to talk, or like they need my confirmation on whatever she just said. It's her fucking car, I don't know shit about it, stop fucking talking to me.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby libellule » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:53 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I know of several privileges I get just for being male, and several I get for being white. I'll likely never be referred to as "My neighbor's husband" for one. - advantage:Male

When we moved here we hired a contractor for some odd jobs. She happened to be female and lesbian, and her sidekick was also her SO. I didn't deal with her nearly as much as my boything, but whenever he'd call her house and the SO answered, she'd call the boss over, saying "Hey it's libellule's husband". He found it quite disconcerting. Oh and also during that time, our landlord came over while our contractors were working on the shed, and looked at one of the gals a bit strangely, staring at the tat she had close to her cleavage. She later said to me "I think he's a sexist pig". I said "Hey you know, this is Alabama [cue the banjo again], this guy is definitely a good ol' boy, and lesbian construction workers might be a little outside his ken". Anyway, that's way off-topic, but it really amused us.

SecondTalon wrote:I can walk into an autoparts store, ask for a part, and not be questioned as to whether or not I need it - advantage:Male

My worst female auto experience comes when I try to fill my tank. My car has a diesel engine, and about 1 in every 20 times I pull up to the pump, the dispenser won't engage. I try again, and wait, and eventually a guy comes running out of the store waving his hands "Miss Miss [or more likely these days ma'am, ma'am], that there pump is diesel. I don't want you to damage your nice little car". Well duh. It's written in big bold letters on a separate pump that is even color-coded green for dumbass blondes like me. Give me some credit. And turn on the Gorram diesel pump.

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:00 am UTC

Just for my own amusement, though I've probably linked them either in this thread or in some other... the Male Privilege Checklist and the White Privilege List, more or less. Some of the carryover speaks volumes..

Things like
If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex/race.
I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex/race on trial.
I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group/gender.
I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race/gender.
I can worry about racism/sexism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

And so on. White Male Privilege is a real thing, whether or not one chooses to recognize it. It takes most of it's forms in ways that aren't readily apparent because the default culture/gender is, generally speaking.. white and male. Every time I turn on the television I'm going to see the face of someone who I could introduce as a close relative and get no stares. I don't have to look very hard to find a positive male figure in any entertainment form.

Anyway, moving on...

PS: Until pharmaceutical companies stop implying women's vaginas are disgusting and need to be cleansed artificially as if soap and water don't cut it (old Lysol ads, scented tampons/pads, douche, etc.), or they start making similar products for ballsweat, I'm going to mistrust Big Pharma. Is that radical of me? I just think it's mean that they imply my sweat and menstrual gunk is somehow grosser than skidmarks or ballsweat. It's all the same sweat! :roll:


I thought it was common knowledge these days that the vagina's a self-cleaning organ and you really shouldn't go shoving random chemicals all up in there... am I mistaken?
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:34 am UTC

@SecondTalon: Whilst you are correct that one should not be shoving chemicals in there, that is hardly common knowledge, especially when parents teach their children that their privates are dirty.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby chaosspawn » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:12 am UTC

White Privilege List
I can't make too much comment about the male privilege list, as I'm male. But as to the white privilege list (me all not being white), I only find few to be true, in the sense that I believe that I have the same privileges as well. Then again I am writing this in Massachusetts, and for the rest of my life have lived where white was a minority, so I can hardly claim to be drastically influenced by the "white oppressor". I don't think I can altogether deny racial disparities. But I think the "I'm surrounded by other white people" to be not a good example of privilege. This is not true depending on location (also the world is bigger than the US), and even in a 'perfect' society that would be a side effect of being the largest population group. Though white is far too much of a blanket term, because even 'white' people break down into vastly differing ethnicities like Irish, Italian, Russian, or even South African. So even surrounded by other 'white' people, a 'white' person could still be left out. Of course when it breaks down to world affairs, we're all labeled as American.

Also towards claims that women are discriminated against when doing something like buying car parts, isn't this because such a thing is considered a (stereotypically) 'male' thing? Would I receive such treatment when going to a typical 'female' thing? I dunno, maybe a lingerie store or something? The sales clerk assuming I (as a guy) know nothing about bra sizing? Just a thought. Perhaps I'm wrong; I've been neither car part shopping nor lingerie shopping so I know not.

My strange insight is that I recall articles to the effect that beautiful people are more privileged (perhaps there were even some studies to back up this claim?). Should equal weight be given to this type of discrimination? Or taller people are more successful, or a bevy of other discriminators (innie versus outie, lefty vs righty). I think that at some point we need to acknowledge that people are different and have different potentials and abilities. I really don't know how to deal with the fact that we shouldn't use these to judge a person though. Ideally it shouldn't even be an issue, but even subconscious prejudices will assert themselves, so we must be taught not to think that way, which makes it an issue.

Since our (American) society started off unequal, it is necessary to give additional benefits to those people, at least temporarily to help re-balance the scales. But, I suppose in a perfectly equal society people in power would be proportional to their race. But there's the tendency to prefer people similar to yourself (like how geeks hang out with each other) and race is just one more factor of sameness or differentiation. Thus the biggest group will tend to reinforce itself and become dominant. Wow... I think I just argued for keeping affirmative action around for perpetuity... I'm not sure where I was going with this line of thought, but it's arrived at a station of sorts.

Sorry for the apparent rambling but I think my main point is this: Yes, there is some disparity and privilege, but overall, I think the US is actually doing a really good job at this whole discrimination thing. At least we've moved past the blowing people up because they are not part of our ethnic group phase. (Or so I'm inclined to believe).
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby cephalopod9 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:43 am UTC

Can we PLEASE change the name of this thread? The idea that people think rights could go "too far" just fills me with mind numbing rage. I do realize that is not exactly what the title says, but you understand my feelings here, yes?

See, I would be fine with discussion of privalages, or advantages that have been given to women and minorities. In fact, I would encourage discussion and complaints about injustices, racism and sexism.
However, no one here is complaining about women's ability to vote, own propperty, be educated, or their movement towards equal treatment. WHICH IS WHAT THE TITLE CURRENTLY SUGGESTS.

I will have calm and reasonable discussion to add after that gets cleared up.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:08 am UTC

Wow, I have to say, until reading this thread i was completely unaware of how far the racial and gender equal rights groups seem to have got in Britain, compared to America. For all I know, it might be hidden from my poor innocent middle class eyes, but I don't really see it.

But as for one of the points in the "white privileges" list, about how if you are white, you can be taught about how members of your race created the civilisation:

It's hardly the fault of history book writers that the Romans, Tudors, Victorians and American equivalents built their civilisations. And how do we cast down this privilege? By going back in time and asking plantation owners not to be racist?
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby tessuraea » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:20 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:But as for one of the points in the "white privileges" list, about how if you are white, you can be taught about how members of your race created the civilisation:

It's hardly the fault of history book writers that the Romans, Tudors, Victorians and American equivalents built their civilisations. And how do we cast down this privilege? By going back in time and asking plantation owners not to be racist?


How far back do you follow the chain of civilization? The Romans weren't the first to build cities. Those who were weren't what we now think of as white. The Victorians didn't make civilization at all. They just lived in it. The American conquerors built cities, sure, but they were just importing ideas and ways of living from Europe.

But our origin myths stop at the white people, instead of going further back. Why do you think that is? Could it be because the origin myths were dreamed up and spread by... white people?

Oh my gods, it really could.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:36 pm UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:Can we PLEASE change the name of this thread? The idea that people think rights could go "too far" just fills me with mind numbing rage. I do realize that is not exactly what the title says, but you understand my feelings here, yes?


I hear you, and agree, but I am sleep addled and uncreative. Give me a new title.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby madaloon » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:32 pm UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:Can we PLEASE change the name of this thread? The idea that people think rights could go "too far" just fills me with mind numbing rage. I do realize that is not exactly what the title says, but you understand my feelings here, yes?


As a woman and feminist, I consider some (only some) parts of the movement to go too far. When legislation moves from being inclusive to being protectionist, I take issue with it. In the US, women fought hard to enter the workforce. When women finally made it into the workforce in many different positions, states passed legislation limiting the number of hours a woman could work in a day while men in similar positions had no limits on the number of hours they could work.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Mecks » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:28 pm UTC

I consider myself a male radical feminist, in the sense that I strongly believe that women can do anything a man can do, only better.

For some reason, I still have a really hard time getting dates.

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby TheStranger » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:25 am UTC

tessuraea wrote:How far back do you follow the chain of civilization? The Romans weren't the first to build cities. Those who were weren't what we now think of as white. The Victorians didn't make civilization at all. They just lived in it. The American conquerors built cities, sure, but they were just importing ideas and ways of living from Europe.


The same can be said for oppression... why do white people get dumped on for oppression when we were only the most recent oppressors?

But our origin myths stop at the white people, instead of going further back. Why do you think that is? Could it be because the origin myths were dreamed up and spread by... white people?

Oh my gods, it really could.


Origin myths stop with white people? Gilgamesh anyone?
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:45 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:
tessuraea wrote:How far back do you follow the chain of civilization? The Romans weren't the first to build cities. Those who were weren't what we now think of as white. The Victorians didn't make civilization at all. They just lived in it. The American conquerors built cities, sure, but they were just importing ideas and ways of living from Europe.


The same can be said for oppression... why do white people get dumped on for oppression when we were only the most recent oppressors?

Because it's white people who are still doing it in this day and age? At least, it's white people in our culture. Obviously Caucasians aren't the ones to blame for oppression that goes on, say, against women in fundamentalist Islamic countries. But we're not talking about privilege in those cultures, either. The society most everyone here belongs to is one in which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them (as evidenced by this thread) are unwilling to even admit exist.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Amicitia » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:58 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:Can we PLEASE change the name of this thread? The idea that people think rights could go "too far" just fills me with mind numbing rage. I do realize that is not exactly what the title says, but you understand my feelings here, yes?

See, I would be fine with discussion of privalages, or advantages that have been given to women and minorities. In fact, I would encourage discussion and complaints about injustices, racism and sexism.
However, no one here is complaining about women's ability to vote, own propperty, be educated, or their movement towards equal treatment. WHICH IS WHAT THE TITLE CURRENTLY SUGGESTS.

I will have calm and reasonable discussion to add after that gets cleared up.

Actually, most--if not all--social constructs involve the inhibition of rights.

Women oughtn't be treated equally, but equitably. At least, for anyone who thinks that women aren't men with different genitalia.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby athelas » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:24 pm UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:Can we PLEASE change the name of this thread? The idea that people think rights could go "too far" just fills me with mind numbing rage. I do realize that is not exactly what the title says, but you understand my feelings here, yes?

Leaving aside the specifics of this thread - sure, rights can theoretically go too far. Were I to claim that I had a right to your computer, or to tar and feather anyone who looked at me the wrong way...

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Malice » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:16 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
The same can be said for oppression... why do white people get dumped on for oppression when we were only the most recent oppressors?
The society most everyone here belongs to is one in which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them (as evidenced by this thread) are unwilling to even admit exist.


Having privileges does not equal oppression. If someone comes along and hands me 1000 dollars because I'm white, am I oppressing people by not handing some of it out to people of other races?

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby jdege » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:18 pm UTC

athelas wrote:sure, rights can theoretically go too far.

If rights can "go to far", you're using the wrong definition of "rights".

Once you accept that rights are inherently negative - that there is never a right to something, only a right not to, it will all make sense.

One person's rights exist solely as prohibitions on the actions of others. They stake out the limits of what other people might to do you, and serve to delineate the range of action in which you may act without the consent of others.

Your right to life means that others may not kill you. It does not mean that they must feed you or provide you with medical care. Your right to property means that others may not take what is yours. It does not mean that they must supply you with property of any sort. Your right to liberty means that others cannot force you to do what you do not, it does not mean that they must prevent you from being forced by circumstances.

Properly understood, rights cannot conflict. It's only when you invent new, positive rights, that you can have conflict. Right to free speech? His speech doesn't prevent your speech, no conflict is possible. Right to medical care? If I get the artificial heart, that means he does not. That there can be conflict is proof that it's not a right.

You don't have a right to other people's labor, other people's property, or other people's good will.

You only have the right to be left alone.

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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:24 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
The same can be said for oppression... why do white people get dumped on for oppression when we were only the most recent oppressors?
The society most everyone here belongs to is one in which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them (as evidenced by this thread) are unwilling to even admit exist.


Having privileges does not equal oppression. If someone comes along and hands me 1000 dollars because I'm white, am I oppressing people by not handing some of it out to people of other races?

If you just blithely spend the money without doing anything to address the inequality and racism inherent in your receipt of it?

Then yes. You're just allowing the problem to continue. Choosing to do nothing is still making a choice, and it's the wrong one, in my opinion.

Depending on who's offering it, and if you know at the time why, I'd go so far as to say accepting it in the first place is perpetuating the problem.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby TheStranger » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:47 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Because it's white people who are still doing it in this day and age? At least, it's white people in our culture.


Really? I don't remember oppressing anyone today.

The society most everyone here belongs to is one in which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them (as evidenced by this thread) are unwilling to even admit exist.


Easy to say, but not automatically true.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:58 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Because it's white people who are still doing it in this day and age? At least, it's white people in our culture.


Really? I don't remember oppressing anyone today.

Did I ever say it was every white person?
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:14 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
The society most everyone here belongs to is one in which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them (as evidenced by this thread) are unwilling to even admit exist.


Easy to say, but not automatically true.


Well... the userbase here appears to me to be primarily American, Australian, New Zealander, British, Irish, or Canadian. Sure, we've got plenty of people from other countries as well, but they mostly seem to hail from one of those countries.

Ergo, the society most everyone here belongs to is one which straight white males have a shit ton of privileges that most of them... as evidenced by this thread... are unwilling to admit exist or completely ignorant of what is meant by the word privileges.

It doesn't mean you get a shiny car just for showing up. Doesn't mean you get a job without trying. Doesn't mean you get to pass every single class without trying. It doesn't mean that someone who isn't a straight white male cannot surpass most, if not all, straight white males..

To simplify it, it's the same as being the only person to start the Monopoly game with $2500 in your hands, instead of $1500. You aren't assured victory, but you get a hell of a start on it. That you cannot recognize the extra $1000 doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby TheStranger » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:49 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Did I ever say it was every white person?


Well you did say "white people" without qualifiers...

Oppression isn't a matter of race, its a matter of power and people abusing the power they've been given.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:03 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:Oppression isn't a matter of race, its a matter of power and people abusing the power they've been given.

Yes, and the people in this country who are abusing that power are pretty much all white and male. (And absolutely all rich and straight, if we want to bring class and sexuality into this discussion as well...)
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby Malice » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:00 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
TheStranger wrote:Oppression isn't a matter of race, its a matter of power and people abusing the power they've been given.

Yes, and the people in this country who are abusing that power are pretty much all white and male. (And absolutely all rich and straight, if we want to bring class and sexuality into this discussion as well...)


Fine. But those people are a tiny percentage of all whites and all males. Most white males don't have any power. Don't go blaming them for something people who happen to share their skin color and genital configuration did--why, that's racist and sexist.

It's on the same level as saying, "Yes, well, all the terrorists on 9/11 were Muslims from the Middle East." You can't go blaming every Muslim from the Middle East for terrorism.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby TheStranger » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:40 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, and the people in this country who are abusing that power are pretty much all white and male. (And absolutely all rich and straight, if we want to bring class and sexuality into this discussion as well...)


But again, its a function of the power they have not the color of their skin.

I once had a boss who would not hire women (having actually said so), she was later forced to change this policy by senior management.
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Re: Women's Rights Movement That Went Too Far

Postby natraj » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:45 am UTC

Malice wrote:Fine. But those people are a tiny percentage of all whites and all males. Most white males don't have any power. Don't go blaming them for something people who happen to share their skin color and genital configuration did--why, that's racist and sexist.

It's on the same level as saying, "Yes, well, all the terrorists on 9/11 were Muslims from the Middle East." You can't go blaming every Muslim from the Middle East for terrorism.


I don't know. I don't think the comparison is really apt. There's a difference between blaming every individual white male for oppression and acknowledging that there is inherent privilege that comes with being part of that group. Which there is, in the vast majority of Western society, in many little ways that people who are white and male may not even realize. I don't think anyone is saying that you, as a white male, personally are stomping on the rights of Mary, the black woman next door. What people are saying is that you, as a white male, automatically have certain advantages she doesn't.

There really isn't, so far as I know, any inherent benefits that 9/11 terrorists have won for the rest of Muslims from the Middle East. Quite the opposite, in fact, considering the vast amount of -- er, well, little (and big) ways that many people do automatically assume now that Muslim from the Middle East = Terrorist.
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