Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

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Glmclain
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Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Sun May 22, 2011 9:57 pm UTC

So, a friend of mine mentioned the concept of Rape Culture to me. I wasn't very familiar, so I looked it up, and although I see the proponent's points, I'm not thoroughly convinced it's real. Rape is absolutely terrible. There is no such thing as "asking for it," there is never an excuse, and it destroys lives. I've never met anyone that believes differently. There are dicks out there who think women are objects, and that jazz, but that's exactly what they are, dicks. I don't feel like they represent culture as a whole, and, for that matter, which culture are we talking about? Rap culture has a history of objectifying women (although it's getting someone better), while other cultures certainly don't. Men don't go around high-fiving each other because "I just raped a chick." It doesn't happen.

Maybe I'm wrong, what are your beliefs?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Dark Avorian » Sun May 22, 2011 10:50 pm UTC

Rape culture doesn't mean what you think it means. It doesn't necessarily mean a glorification of the actual act of rape,a lthough at its worst that is certainly possible. Rape culture is the entire idea of the objectification of women, and the culture that promotes the idea that men acting on their basest instinct are just being "guys." Rape culture is the idea that catcalling is okay. Rape culture is the idea of victim blaming, see any of the many horrifying defenses of Strauss Kahn for this (like say...Ben Steins). Rape culture is that which glorifies the domination of women, and that which glorifies going out and getting girls drunk and taking them home to have sex. Rape culture is one in which rape is denied, in which victims are blamed, in which the rapist can demean and force the victim into secrecy because the culture won't believe her.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Sun May 22, 2011 10:55 pm UTC

That makes sense, although I still believe it's too broad to be applied to "Culture" as a whole. Hip-Hop culture you can certainly say has many of those characteristics (although I love Hip-Hop for the escapism), but others certainly do not. If people say something is "Evidence of Rape Culture" it erks me, because that's so vague it can mean anything. Also, if you argue against Rape Culture, many will take it as "you must be pro-rape" which is horrifying to me. But I digress.

I understand the concept of Rape Culture, but I feel that you can't apply it vaguely or risk losing credibility. That makes sense to me.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby aoeu » Sun May 22, 2011 11:03 pm UTC

I think rape culture was first used to explain why men simultaneously are not gay and think women are inferior.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Dark Avorian » Sun May 22, 2011 11:03 pm UTC

So you can't see how it applies to society as a whole? Well, I can pretty safely say that a state is very white, very republican, very wealthy, very rural, etc. without necessarily meaning that every person in that state is a Rich White Republican on a farm. We can obviously talk about culture without it necessarily meaning that every sector of that culture conforms to it. Now obviously, we're no longer in a pillage and burn feudal time period (in the developed world at least) where people might literally high five each other for raping local women, but that doesn't mean we don't have a rape culture.

Look at the porn that so many young men grow up watching (myself included), there is domination, bondage, objectification, screams of pain. Right there, young men's views of sexuality are being shaped by these enactments of rape.

Now going to the news, I mentioned Strauss Kahn. The fact that so many people are leaping to protect him and blaming the victim, despite the fact that the NYPD would never touch the IMF chief unless they had an ironclad case against him is also rather damning for our society.

Then there is catcalling. How many people do you know who would reprimand someone for "innocent" catcalls? I know I don't know all that many, and even though I do know some, the general acceptability of such behavior, as well as its portrayal in popular culture as something perfectly acceptable, is somewhat disturbing.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Sun May 22, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

Dark Avorian wrote:
Look at the porn that so many young men grow up watching (myself included), there is domination, bondage, objectification, screams of pain. Right there, young men's views of sexuality are being shaped by these enactments of rape.



That's just rhetoric, studies have shown that people who view pornography to not go out and rape any more than people that don't. Also, Bondage is perfectly healthy as long as both parties consent, and many people practice is safely and have a great time doing it. Just because people find things attractive doesn't mean they're rapists.

Dark Avorian wrote: Now going to the news, I mentioned Strauss Kahn. The fact that so many people are leaping to protect him and blaming the victim, despite the fact that the NYPD would never touch the IMF chief unless they had an ironclad case against him is also rather damning for our society.


Strauss isn't some random guy, he's an incredibly powerful and important person to both the French and the Americans. With a case this big there are bound to be supporters of him, regardless of whether he's guilty or not. This isn't a good example of Rape Culture, especially since he hasn't gone to trial yet. Innocent until proven guilty, and although I'm disgusted that he could have done it, until I see the evidence and trial, I'll reserve judgement.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Dark Avorian » Sun May 22, 2011 11:44 pm UTC

Glmclain wrote:
Dark Avorian wrote:
Look at the porn that so many young men grow up watching (myself included), there is domination, bondage, objectification, screams of pain. Right there, young men's views of sexuality are being shaped by these enactments of rape.



That's just rhetoric, studies have shown that people who view pornography to not go out and rape any more than people that don't. Also, Bondage is perfectly healthy as long as both parties consent, and many people practice is safely and have a great time doing it. Just because people find things attractive doesn't mean they're rapists.


Eh, I guess. Although, I'm not sure if that's necessarily because it has nothing to do with rape culture. Perhaps it doesn't encourage rape, but it may well normalize it on some basic level. That is, people are no more likely to do it themselves, but they are conditioned to it, and it can have an effect on their psyche. I hope there are studies making this point invalid, but I'm not sure ones against increase incidence of actual rape are full proof it has no effect.

Dark Avorian wrote: Now going to the news, I mentioned Strauss Kahn. The fact that so many people are leaping to protect him and blaming the victim, despite the fact that the NYPD would never touch the IMF chief unless they had an ironclad case against him is also rather damning for our society.


Strauss isn't some random guy, he's an incredibly powerful and important person to both the French and the Americans. With a case this big there are bound to be supporters of him, regardless of whether he's guilty or not. This isn't a good example of Rape Culture, especially since he hasn't gone to trial yet. Innocent until proven guilty, and although I'm disgusted that he could have done it, until I see the evidence and trial, I'll reserve judgement.


True, and if he's innocent I apologize for it. There are however different types of judgment one can make. I don't think he'll be guilty "beyond all reasonable doubt" until the evidence has been laid out against him, both sides have told their stories, and the jury has decided. But that doesn't meant that I can't speak to the actions of those leaping to his defence. First, although we cannot say to the degree of certainty that is legally necessary, I am going to go out on a limb and say that unless the NYPD had a basically perfect case against him, they would never have touched him. I mean, honestly, he is the chief of the freaking IMF, and as you said, he is bound to have huge supporters because he's important to lots of French and Americans. Also, although it may not technically be applicable, I'm sure that if there was a weak case diplomatic immunity would've been asserted. So, I can't say I'm sure enough to put him in jail, but I'm sure enough that I think it's disgusting that so many are creaitng these improbable situations to defend him when honestly, there is a gigantic probability that this actually happened.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 1:54 am UTC

Rape culture is also making endless qualifications as to what is rape rape. Plenty of people say things like "rape is horrible." But present them with a real life case of rape, and out come the questions: "was she wearing slutty clothing?" "how old was she?" "was she acting seductive?" "why was she around those young men?" "was she drunk?" "why didn't she scream or fight?" "The accused rapist was a respectable person, I don't buy this story"

The instinctive response is to go on a quest to prove, however subconsciously, that it wasn't that bad or that some of it was the victim's fault. To deny that a rape rape happened. People might say that nobody ever asks for it, but their responses approach it indirectly.

You've seen it, don't try to deny it. Read the comments on any news article addressing rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby KingofMadCows » Mon May 23, 2011 2:03 am UTC

I don't think rape culture is one where rape is glorified or denied. It's a culture where rape is simply normalized as if it's part of everyday life, kind of like prison.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Qaanol » Mon May 23, 2011 2:03 am UTC

Glmclain wrote:That's just rhetoric, studies have shown that people who view pornography to not go out and rape any more than people that don't. Also, Bondage is perfectly healthy as long as both parties consent, and many people practice is safely and have a great time doing it. Just because people find things attractive doesn't mean they're rapists.

Indeed, there are numerous scientific studies that show increased access to pornography is correlated with decreased incidence of rape. Offhand I don’t know any studies that differentiated by categories of porn, but I would not jump to any conclusions on the matter.

Overall, pornography helps to “normalize” sexuality. The fact is, sex is a normal and healthy part of human life. On the other hand, rape is a violent and terrible act.

It is important that we do not conflate sexuality with propensity for rape. There is a vast difference between a culture of open sexuality and a culture of rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby poxic » Mon May 23, 2011 2:21 am UTC

This isn't a scientific study, but it draws from a couple of them. In particular, the section titled "Recommendation" addresses rape culture directly. Here's an out-of-context snippet that might bother you until you read the whole article:

Thomas at YesMeansYes wrote:Listen. The men in your lives will tell you what they do. As long as the R word doesn’t get attached, rapists do self-report. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking. He’s telling you how he sees it. The guy who says, “bros before hos”, is asking you to make a pact.

The Pact. The social structure that allows the predators to hide in plain sight, to sit at the bar at the same table with everyone, take a target home, rape her, and stay in the same social circle because she can’t or won’t tell anyone, or because nobody does anything if she does. The pact to make excuses, to look for mitigation, to patch things over — to believe that what happens to our friends — what our friends do to our friends — is not (using Whoopi Goldberg’s pathetic apologetics) “rape-rape”.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 2:31 am UTC

Rape doesn't have to be violent. It could be as simple as a girl having sex with her boyfriend when he's drunk, but he didn't want it. But afterwards, the rape culture kicks in when he can't or won't admit that he didn't want it because his friends would make fun of him for ever turning down sex. Because rape culture incorporates two messages that "all guys want sex" and "you can pressure them if they're your boyfriend/girlfriend."

Rape culture also includes commercials like that tequila commercial, where a man impersonates his twin brother, gets his brother's girlfriend drunk, and seduces her. It's funny, it's well-produced, the actors are hot, and the whole thing is intended to gloss over the fact that the man is literally taking away the woman's right to choose who she sleeps with. The message is that breaking the bro code was worse than denying her consent. Rape culture normalizes this kind of thing, incorporates the message that it's okay to pursue sex without informed consent, that it can be played off as a joke, even if the situation does not include violence.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Mon May 23, 2011 2:49 am UTC

Yes, but lots of people are offended at that, males included, which is evidence against rape culture, or at least the extent you describe it. I was horrified, it's a fucked up commercial.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 2:55 am UTC

The fact that the commercial exists is evidence for rape culture. Advertising people wrote that idea, executives approved of it, focus groups may have approved of it, the directors and actors and crew made it, and then the networks accepted it. Lots of people in this process weren't horrified, or went along, and certainly enough people, based on their experiences, thought that this was a good way to entice the audience. That says something about the audience.

The fact that some audience members caught the message and were horrified is very encouraging, and part of the movement to dismantle rape culture. But that is not proof that rape culture doesn't exist in the first place.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby poxic » Mon May 23, 2011 3:19 am UTC

"Lots of men aren't like that" is not the same as "rape culture doesn't exist". Slavery in the United States existed despite a whole lot of people being against it. Racism exists despite a whole lot of people being against it.

It's the temperature of the water around us. You can take the temperature by asking "how many women who are raped end up reporting the crime?" As many as forty percent or as few as five percent, according to a few online sources.

The second source, the 5% figure, was from the '80s, so maybe we're getting better. We still suck, though. Prosecuting rape is still a very difficult, very shitty experience for women. A quote from Fugitivus:

Fugitivus wrote:I have been raped. It is not altogether unlikely that I will be raped again in my lifetime. I know what it is like to be asked, nicely and not nicely, to shut the fuck up. I know what it is like to be bullied. I know what it is like to be mocked, and threatened, and harassed. I know what it is like to decide that being legally rapeable is more tolerable than filing a report, or going to court and asking for justice, as is my legal and human right.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby lutzj » Mon May 23, 2011 3:31 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Rape culture is also making endless qualifications as to what is rape rape. Plenty of people say things like "rape is horrible." But present them with a real life case of rape, and out come the questions: "was she wearing slutty clothing?" "how old was she?" "was she acting seductive?" "why was she around those young men?" "was she drunk?" "why didn't she scream or fight?" "The accused rapist was a respectable person, I don't buy this story"


People are generally taught to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, with any crime. People defend accused murderers, burglars, terrorists, and even rapists all the time in our society because we ideally presume innocence until guilt is proven.

Then there is the fact that people try to justify criminal behavior because they can't understand the mentality behind horrible crimes otherwise.

"My car was stolen while I was in the deli."
"You parked your Mercedes on the street in that area? What were you expecting?"

"My brother was stabbed in the chest yesterday; the assailant broke his knees and took his wallet."
"Was he in a dangerous neighborhood? Alone? Did he threaten someone? Couldn't he have defended himself?"


The term "Rape culture" reflects the fact violence of all kinds (including rape) is empathized with and romanticized in similar ways.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby KingofMadCows » Mon May 23, 2011 3:49 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Rape culture is also making endless qualifications as to what is rape rape. Plenty of people say things like "rape is horrible." But present them with a real life case of rape, and out come the questions: "was she wearing slutty clothing?" "how old was she?" "was she acting seductive?" "why was she around those young men?" "was she drunk?" "why didn't she scream or fight?" "The accused rapist was a respectable person, I don't buy this story"


People are generally taught to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, with any crime. People defend accused murderers, burglars, terrorists, and even rapists all the time in our society because we ideally presume innocence until guilt is proven.

Then there is the fact that people try to justify criminal behavior because they can't understand the mentality behind horrible crimes otherwise.

"My car was stolen while I was in the deli."
"You parked your Mercedes on the street in that area? What were you expecting?"

"My brother was stabbed in the chest yesterday; the assailant broke his knees and took his wallet."
"Was he in a dangerous neighborhood? Alone? Did he threaten someone? Couldn't he have defended himself?"


The term "Rape culture" reflects the fact violence of all kinds (including rape) is empathized with and romanticized in similar ways.


I would say that's more of an indication of how people have pretty much given up trying to deal with crime. They think of crime as a force of nature, something that's inevitable. People treat a bad neighborhood like it's on a fault line and crime like it's an earthquake.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Soralin » Mon May 23, 2011 4:25 am UTC

There's this to take into account as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon
The just-world phenomenon, also called the just-world theory, just-world fallacy, just-world effect, or just-world hypothesis, refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world is fundamentally just. As a result, when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice, they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.

Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape, for example, only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault. This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviors of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable.

Two studies gave women what appeared to be painful electric shocks while working on a difficult memory problem. More women of broadly the same age and social group who observed the experiment appeared to blame the victim for her fate, praise the experiment, and rate her as being less physically attractive than did those who had seen her but not the experiment.[1]

In another study, female and male subjects were told two versions of a story about an interaction between a woman and a man. Both variations were exactly the same, except at the very end the man raped the woman in one and in the other he proposed marriage. In both conditions, both female and male subjects viewed the woman's (identical) actions as inevitably leading to the (very different) results.[2]

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby omgryebread » Mon May 23, 2011 4:28 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:Overall, pornography helps to “normalize” sexuality. The fact is, sex is a normal and healthy part of human life. On the other hand, rape is a violent and terrible act.
A huge quanity of pornography isn't normalizing normal sex. At least not any sex I'd want to participate in.

Even if we set aside rape fantasy and bondage porn, a large amount of pornography involves physical abuse, often even showing it as something the woman desires or "deserves." Porn often uses pejoratives towards actresses. There's a large bit of internet pornography which involves tricking the woman. The subset of porn involving pain for the female is much much larger than that involving pain for the male.

Yes, viewing, or even making any of these kinds of pornography, including fantasy rape is a far cry from actual rape. But all contribute to the idea that women aren't actually people.

It's not even the same way that violence is glorified in our culture. In the majority of violent entertainment, there's a purpose to the violence. Characters in movies and TV shows use violence to achieve an end that someone can usually empathize with. Those without a reason are portrayed as bad people, and are stopped by the good people.

Porn that contributes to rape culture (obviously not all does) glorifies those acts in and of themselves. Women aren't tricked and hair isn't yanked for some positive goal. They are because that's what the man in the narrative wants, with the subtext that what the woman wants is secondary, or the perhaps creepier subtext that the woman wants to be in that inferior position.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 23, 2011 4:31 am UTC

omgryebread wrote: But all contribute to the idea that women aren't actually people.


[citation needed]

I have not yet encountered evidence suggesting that people who are engaged in violent media tend to be violent more, nor that people who enjoy violent pornography are more likely to be rapists. And that's just a correlation: even given that, I would request evidence showing that the causation was violent media -> violent behaviour, not violent behaviour -> violent media.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby omgryebread » Mon May 23, 2011 4:49 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
omgryebread wrote: But all contribute to the idea that women aren't actually people.


[citation needed]

I have not yet encountered evidence suggesting that people who are engaged in violent media tend to be violent more, nor that people who enjoy violent pornography are more likely to be rapists. And that's just a correlation: even given that, I would request evidence showing that the causation was violent media -> violent behaviour, not violent behaviour -> violent media.
I'm not saying there's any relation between media and behavior, certainly not a causative one. I am saying there's a relation between media and culture. I'm most certainly not saying that pornography causes people to go out and rape women directly. I am saying it contributes to an atmosphere where women are not treated as equal agents in sexual situations. In other words, rape culture.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Mon May 23, 2011 4:49 am UTC

And, once again, we're asking for citations or evidence for this.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby savanik » Mon May 23, 2011 4:58 am UTC

Soralin wrote:There's this to take into account as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

Regarding the 'just world' phenomenon.

Marcus Cole wrote:I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.


Moving right along: People have some really fucked-up ideas around sex, power, and money. Let me just throw this in here:

In some parts of the world, land is really important. As in, losing rights to your land can lead to your death by starvation. In many of these parts, inheritance of land is derived purely from parental lineage. Men get twice the shares that women do. Abortions are also forbidden. These laws were meant to promote women's welfare and safeguard their social importance. However, taken literally in a patricial dominating societ, this leads to the following chain of logic:

1. If you desire another man's land, rape his daughter. Your son through her will inherit land for your family when her father dies.
2. If your daughter is raped by another man, kill her to prevent the loss of any of your land.

Both of these conclusions are logical and valid within the framework of these laws. These attitudes are quite real, well documented, and are held by enough people to constitute not just a culture, but a framework of their society. And, in my opinion, they are completely reprehensible.

By the way, these attitudes also influence the willingness of invading armies, historically, to rape women of land they've conquered, or to take women away to be their wives.

I thus claim that contractual based inheritance of property (being able to have a will, in other words) is one of the best things to happen for women's rights in all of history.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 23, 2011 5:11 am UTC

I am saying it contributes to an atmosphere where women are not treated as equal agents in sexual situations. In other words, rape culture.


[citation needed]

It's at least as likely that the media reflects a rape culture and doesn't encourage it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 5:13 am UTC

Another example: Tits or gtfo. The idea of reducing females to their genitalia to be displayed at the male majority's convenience, just to even get into the conversation. Even if it's joking, it's a worrying thing to try to respond to: play along and give tacit approval to the objectification, or call them out and be regarded as a humorless bitch?

Conversely, there are very few examples of "package or gtfo." Which would be equally unacceptable. But there just isn't as long or entrenched of a history of women openly treating men like cattle.

Another example: this NYTimes article on the harassment culture of the I.M.F. is a good description of rape culture in a microcosm.

Another example: the flippant way prison rape is treated, as if it's different from other rape. I'm guilty of this one too, playing it off as if it's no more than an inevitable pratfall. That's another way to normalize rape as an accepted part of society.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Mon May 23, 2011 5:15 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:It's at least as likely that the media reflects a rape culture and doesn't encourage it.


Either way, it exists. It's far more likely that the two are entwined, however, due to the whole concept of positive feedback loops.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 23, 2011 5:16 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Another example: the flippant way prison rape is treated, as if it's different from other rape.


I make no value statement as to whether or not this is any sort of reasonable, but my guess is that it's harder for people to empathize with convicted criminals.

Aaeriele wrote:Either way, it exists.

Nobody denied this.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Mon May 23, 2011 5:17 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Either way, it exists.

Nobody denied this.


Glmclain wrote:So, a friend of mine mentioned the concept of Rape Culture to me. I wasn't very familiar, so I looked it up, and although I see the proponent's points, I'm not thoroughly convinced it's real.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 23, 2011 5:18 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Either way, it exists.

Nobody denied this.


Glmclain wrote:So, a friend of mine mentioned the concept of Rape Culture to me. I wasn't very familiar, so I looked it up, and although I see the proponent's points, I'm not thoroughly convinced it's real.


A statement he'd revoked the first time he responded to the thread.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Glmclain » Mon May 23, 2011 5:22 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Another example: Tits or gtfo. The idea of reducing females to their genitalia to be displayed at the male majority's convenience, just to even get into the conversation. Even if it's joking, it's a worrying thing to try to respond to: play along and give tacit approval to the objectification, or call them out and be regarded as a humorless bitch?



People that say that are largely from 4chan, and are anonymously posting. Anonymity can cause people to be dicks, and say things they would never normally say. I wouldn't say 4chan is proof of rape culture, since 99% of what's on there is bullshit and nobody means it. Not that it makes the phrase okay, but it's not like people will say that to women they know.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 am UTC

Glmclain wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Another example: Tits or gtfo. The idea of reducing females to their genitalia to be displayed at the male majority's convenience, just to even get into the conversation. Even if it's joking, it's a worrying thing to try to respond to: play along and give tacit approval to the objectification, or call them out and be regarded as a humorless bitch?



People that say that are largely from 4chan, and are anonymously posting. Anonymity can cause people to be dicks, and say things they would never normally say. I wouldn't say 4chan is proof of rape culture, since 99% of what's on there is bullshit and nobody means it. Not that it makes the phrase okay, but it's not like people will say that to women they know.

There was a study that showed that sexist jokes could influence sexism.
http://www.livescience.com/2005-study-s ... -joke.html
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/0 ... inst.women

Anyway, how do you know nobody means it? What makes you so sure there aren't people who have finally found a place where it's acceptable for them to let loose with what they really think of women because they have to restrain themselves IRL lest they be shunned? I've met my fair share of 4channers or general nerds who said all sorts of bullshit about women, thought they were entitled to sex for doing nice things occasionally, were bitter that they were turned down, and espoused Nice Guy theories.
Last edited by podbaydoor on Mon May 23, 2011 5:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby poxic » Mon May 23, 2011 5:31 am UTC

Glmclain wrote:People that say that are largely from 4chan, and are anonymously posting. Anonymity can cause people to be dicks, and say things they would never normally say. I wouldn't say 4chan is proof of rape culture, since 99% of what's on there is bullshit and nobody means it. Not that it makes the phrase okay, but it's not like people will say that to women they know.

... And this therefore makes it okay?

This means it isn't at all part of the culture?

This means ... what, in your view? That rape is totally okay as a joke played by boyish people among other boyish people?


Imagine a world where soldiers are not respected very much. And soldiers, these days, sometimes get blown up by IEDs that are placed strategically, such as under highway overpasses (which are known triggers for returning soldiers with post-combat PTSD). And imagine that some people think it's totally okay to make jokes like "ooh, you're a soldier, guess I'd better not ... DRIVE YOU UNDER THIS OVERPASS RIGHT HERE! Ahhhahahahahah! Oh what, you're getting offended? Why, are you a fucking pussy?"

Because, seriously? That shit happens to rape victims. Constantly.

Edit to add: not literally, usually. Most people don't say "ooh, you've been raped? AHAHAHA YOU DESERVED IT" in exactly those words. Instead, they say "what were you wearing?" And that's kind of actually the same thing.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 am UTC

Actually, it's not unusual for people to say "get over it", whether it's rape or combat-related PTSD.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 23, 2011 5:39 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Actually, it's not unusual for people to say "get over it", whether it's rape or combat-related PTSD.


...
Seriously? People's misunderstanding and lack of empathy for mental illness astounds me. I have asperger's, a mental illness characterized by defective empathy and this just baffles me. Do these people really think "well I'm not scared by it so they shouldn't be"?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Mon May 23, 2011 5:40 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Do these people really think "well I'm not scared by it so they shouldn't be"?


Yes. :/
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Kulantan » Mon May 23, 2011 5:42 am UTC

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby poxic » Mon May 23, 2011 5:53 am UTC

And I think I've exhausted my ability to not yell on this topic. I wish everyone well.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 23, 2011 10:24 am UTC

myself in another thread wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:
Dark567 wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

So... pretty much anything remotely sexist that you don't shut down makes you proponent of rape? How's that for hyperbole?

Yeah.
I annoy the crap out of some people by constantly correcting the sexist and racist jokes, but calling it "rape culture" is like calling religion "anti-abortion terrorism culture". In the most extreme cases it can lead to that, but that doesn't make it the defining feature of that "culture".

Whatever the facts, it makes the proponent sound like a crackpot.
And it belittles all of the less serious but much more common expressions of society's misogyny.

So yeah, rape is unreasonably accepted in our culture. That doesn't make it a "rape culture".

On the other hand, there is such a thing as overreaction to things that could possibly be likened to rape. When people get drunk in a bar and go have sex even though they're both unable to make rational decisions, are they both guilty of rape? Only the guy? Only the one that doesn't regret it when he/she wakes up? What is consent??
Last edited by jules.LT on Mon May 23, 2011 10:30 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby felltir » Mon May 23, 2011 10:26 am UTC

jules.lt wrote:
myself in another thread wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:
Dark567 wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

So... pretty much anything remotely sexist that you don't shut down makes you proponent of rape? How's that for hyperbole?

Yeah.
I annoy the crap out of some people by constantly correcting the sexist and racist jokes, but calling it "rape culture" is like calling religion "anti-abortion terrorism culture". In the most extreme cases it can lead to that, but that doesn't make it the defining feature of that "culture".

Whatever the facts, it makes the proponent sound like a crackpot.
And it belittles all of the less serious but much more common expressions of society's misogyny.

So yeah, rape is unreasonably accepted in our culture. That doesn't make it a "rape culture".


That's actually the definition of "rape culture". So yes, it does.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 23, 2011 10:31 am UTC

Ok, so now I'll go tell religious people that they're part of a "terrorist culture" (or maybe just muslims?)
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