Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

Well, I think it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that emotional abuse and rape ought not to be discussed within the contexts of each other, but to each his own.
I have to argue that in that particular case, there is no force being applied. There is an ultimatum, but "or I'm leaving you" is a perfectly viable alternative. The issuer of that particular ultimatum does indeed have the right to leave the relationship if unsatisfied, just like anyone else, and to say they do not is to infringe on their autonomy. Nobody is forcing the reciever of the ultimatum to pick one way or the other, so while it may be assholeish behavior, it is certainly not the use of force. This is not, in fact, what these studies were meant to highlight. These studies were meant to highlight cases which *were* forced, not illustrate issues of people being assholes and then equating their assholishness to rape (emotional abuse is another story entirely, and one that deserves to be talked about seperately)

I agree that emotional abuse deserves its own time to be discussed as a society and dealt with, but you can't say that sex forced through emotional abuse isn't rape, and that seems to be the direction people lean in more often than they would like to have it broadcast.
When we're talking about a statistic and what that statistic shows it really can only give us one direction from which to view the data, but that doesn't mean you get to exclude things like emotional abuse from the sphere of what constitutes rape by force.
To me that's a big part of rape culture- the idea that you can separate sex from the other inherent power dynamic of a relationship in order to call it something other than rape. But maybe I'm looking at it sideways.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Enuja wrote:When people use the phrase "rape culture" we don't just mean culture that celebrates rape
Yes, yes they do. See above.
Above wrote:Rape culture is a term used within women's studies and feminism, describing a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women.
What point are you trying to make?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:00 pm UTC

Rainsborough wrote:That is pretty much it and as clear as I can make it. I apologise for the atrociously long post but I hoped I could settle a little bit about the arguments on what is rape. Personally I'm pretty happy with the legal definition but others may disagree.


I feel compelled to point out a huge glaring issue with the legal definition that you're so happy with: according to it, only men can be rapists.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:34 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:Why do you think it is appropriate to separate emotional abuse from rape that goes hand in hand with it?

Hint- it's because you're a part of rape culture.
Or perhaps because emotional abuse and rape aren't the same thing?

There has been a lot of this type of rhetoric in this thread. This concept where anyone disagreeing is a case in point of rape culture is extremely intellectually dishonest. For example:
Anyone who ever disagrees with me does so because they are a fucking idiot.
I took Meauxz_Pas's statement at face value: it is in fact quite probable that I am a part of rape culture as she and these boards in general define it if I make statements that indicate this. Rape culture is a somewhat arbitrary label for an entire group of actions and attitudes, defined as far as I can tell as a. Acts as if consent is unimportant or unneccesary, b. Treats legal consent as the most important form of consent as opposed to whether the other person actually wants sex, and c. Questions whether the perpetrator/victim line is entirely clear-cut and whether all the blame must go to the perpetrator and all the sympathy must go to the victim. If a person falls into any one of those categories, they are a part of rape culture as defined on these message boards. As it turns out, I fall into category C of rape culture in certain situations, and thus am a part of rape culture under these definitions. That is a statement of fact, and does not invalidate my arguments or Meaux_Pas's. I am arguing that part of rape culture is not always to be avoided, and that in the particular case of someone who demands sex or an end to the relationship not all the blame should go to that person (perhaps 50-90% of it should, depending on the particulars of the situation).

I believe Meaux that I am a part of rape culture, but I disagree that this makes my beliefs wrong. Thus, I believe that if the goal is to have rape culture be a unilaterally bad and shameful thing to be a part of, no part of rape culture should be considered a valid viewpoint. Perhaps the working definition should be changed such that anti-rape culture is not quite so extreme as it currently is (change "always" to "in the vast majority of cases", "all the blame" to "most of the blame" or even "blame is not necessarily productive, maybe we need to work on healing both the victim and the perpetrator and spread the message that consent is important.").

Just my $0.02.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:40 pm UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote: I am arguing that part of rape culture is not always to be avoided . . . I believe Meaux that I am a part of rape culture, but I disagree that this makes my beliefs wrong.


That right there is where you lost me.

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Thus, I believe that if the goal is to have rape culture be a unilaterally bad and shameful thing to be a part of, no part of rape culture should be considered a valid viewpoint.


...pretty much exactly, yeah. I had no idea this was such a radical idea!

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Perhaps the working definition should be changed such that anti-rape culture is not quite so extreme as it currently is (change "always" to "in the vast majority of cases", "all the blame" to "most of the blame" or even "blame is not necessarily productive, maybe we need to work on healing both the victim and the perpetrator and spread the message that consent is important.").

Just my $0.02.


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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Rainsborough » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:42 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We haven't bothered legally defining rape because we know everyone is equally capable of finding out what the law says in their own location, and also because corner cases aren't really the point, and we're *mostly* agreed about things that aren't corner cases.


I'm sorry I've intruded on this unstated agreement. I was simply confused that no one thought it might be useful to examine say an excepted legal definition of consent rather than arguing about various definitions plucked out of thin air for four pages, it seemed it might at least help focus the issues.

Aaeriele wrote:
Rainsborough wrote:That is pretty much it and as clear as I can make it. I apologise for the atrociously long post but I hoped I could settle a little bit about the arguments on what is rape. Personally I'm pretty happy with the legal definition but others may disagree.


I feel compelled to point out a huge glaring issue with the legal definition that you're so happy with: according to it, only men can be rapists.


Yes I concede the point. I admit that I had no so much noticed; that makes me... uncomfortable. However any discrepancy is cleared up in terms of law at least by the associated offences of assault by penetration, sexual assault and "Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent." which I failed to mention, all carry the same terms. I suppose when you study the law you get into a pattern of thinking that disregards labels and rather focuses on actions and states of mind. But in the end I concede the point, for the purposes of semantics the definition is inadequate; though I would argue that the offences works in practice.

In the UK the statistics (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf_ actually bear for interesting reading: One study carried out in 1991 estimated that 1 in 4 women had experienced rape that the most common perpetrators were current and ex-partners and the vast majority (91%) told no one at the time.

A more recent 2001 study estimated the prevalence rate for rape of women over 16 was 0.3 per cent for the year prior to interv i e w, and an estimated 47,000 adult female victims of rape. The prevalence rate since the age of 16 is one in 27 women suffering at least one incident of rape.

The report also indicates that the police are increasing their support of rape victims but that self-referral to treatment (as the percentage of overall referrals) is dropping. If one was optimistic one could speculate that victims feel more comfortable approaching the police at first instance. The number of men being referred for treatment also increased over 300% in 10 years; again this could be looked at in one of two ways: either there are more male victims of rape or male victims feel more able to seek help.

The number of instances of reportage increased drastically from 1970 but the number of convictions remained static.

Tragically only 8% of reported cases lead to conviction (there is a detailed breakdowns as to why in the report) however of those cases that went before a jury there was a 55% conviction rate.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, rape victims (both male and female) preferred to be interviewed by female police officers rather than male ones.

The report is fairly detailed and well worth a read. Generally it paints a mixed picture with some things getting better and some getting worse. Whether it provides evidence for a Rape Culture is debatable and rather depends on interpretation.

One thing I would like to say is that from personal experience, the group that is often left out of both statistics and criminal proceedings, are those who are homeless, often substance abusers and sometimes involved in the sex trade. I worked in a sheltered housing project for vulnerable young people and the percentage there who had been a victim of rape hovered around 50% (with little distinction as to gender as it happens). The general consensus was that if you were a kid on the streets at some point you would get raped. That was pretty difficult for a guy like me to deal with.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:26 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote: I am arguing that part of rape culture is not always to be avoided . . . I believe Meaux that I am a part of rape culture, but I disagree that this makes my beliefs wrong.


That right there is where you lost me.

Okay. I did not realize I was being confusing here.

Consider it this way, if there was a common belief that if you are a bad Christian, you are a bad person, and that Good Christians a)help anyone in need, b)consider others before themselves, and c)believe that Jesus Christ was the Savior, and will lead them to salvation, someone who did not believe c would not be a Good Christian as defined. The implication is that since they are a bad Christian, they are a bad person. Rather than calling into question whether or not they are a bad Christian (they clearly are), one needs to be calling into question the *implications* of being a bad Christian, namely whether or not that person is a bad person.

Rape Culture is a label that covers a range of behaviors and attitudes, and has a set of implications. If today, we decided that liking a BLT for breakfast made you a part of rape culture, that does make anyone who likes a BLT in the morning a part of rape culture, by definition. Calling into question whether or not someone who likes BLTs for breakfast is a part of rape culture is nonsensical, as it was just postulated. However, we do need to reevaluate the *consequences* of the person who likes BLTs, and is thus a part of rape culture.

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Thus, I believe that if the goal is to have rape culture be a unilaterally bad and shameful thing to be a part of, no part of rape culture should be considered a valid viewpoint.


...pretty much exactly, yeah. I had no idea this was such a radical idea!

I am hoping that this isn't a radical idea. If it is, the posters on this board are a lot less rational than I thought. However, it is a step in my thought process, and I'm showing my work in arriving at my conclusion. I missed the step of "I think that one of the beliefs that falls under the umbrella of 'rape culture' is in fact valid.


Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Perhaps the working definition should be changed such that anti-rape culture is not quite so extreme as it currently is (change "always" to "in the vast majority of cases", "all the blame" to "most of the blame" or even "blame is not necessarily productive, maybe we need to work on healing both the victim and the perpetrator and spread the message that consent is important.").

Just my $0.02.


Are you by chance the poster who made the "Men [SAFESPACE]" thread?

No. Look at my postcount; I am not even a particularly active poster here.

TL;DR

To simplify things, here is my entire chain of reasoning step-by step.
1) The term "Rape Culture" covers everyone who
-does not treat consent as important
-uses unethical means to obtain consent in any way whatsoever
-puts any of the blame on the victim for any reason whatsoever
-gives any sympathy to the rapist for any reason whatsoever
and has the implication that
-the participant in this culture needs to change their views or they are a bad and irrational person.
2) I give some sympathy to the rapist and assign some blame (to the extent that assigning blame is even useful) to the victim **in a few very particular situations**. I do not assign 100% of blame or sympathy to one person all the time.
3) This makes me a part of rape culture.
4) I can defend my view that cases are not always so clear-cut that 100% of the blame can be assigned to the rapist, and 100% of the sympathy can be assigned to the victim.
5) I am not an irrational person, whether or not I fall under the arbitrary label of "bad"
6) If we want to keep the conclusions of the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture", we need to make sure that all of the precursors that lead to this conclusion are valid.
7) We want to keep the conclusions to the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture".
8 ) The implications of the term "Rape Culture" are inaccurate for at least one situation that I can think of (myself).
9) We need to change or at least qualify the precursors that lead to these conclusions. I have suggested how to do this in my previous post.

Clearly, you disagree with the conclusion of my reasoning, so could you please point out which particular step of my reasoning you find fault with?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:30 am UTC

Well, there's the small matter that being a part of rape culture is not a binary state, but more of a continuum.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:37 am UTC

It was treated as a binary state by at least one of the posters (Meaux). If this is not the consensus, I do in fact take issue with her statement "This opinion is because you are a part of rape culture", as it meaningless when used to demonstrate a position on a sliding scale, because *everyone* is somewhere on that sliding scale. If she was just saying "I'm farther toward the Anti-Rape side of the scale than you," I fully agree, and argue that being that far over is not necessarily a good thing. More fundamentally, I am saying that I don't believe that the scale "Anti-Rape-->Rape Culture" is as well correlated to the scale of "Good Person-->Bad person" as it could be and is being treated as being.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:42 am UTC

I think you are reading more into what Meaux said than is actually there. She rhetorically asked "why do you think X" and then answered it with "because you are part of Y" which has the main implication that Y leads to X.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:50 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Okay. I did not realize I was being confusing here.


Not confusing at all, merely horrifying.

Consider it this way, if there was a common belief that if you are a bad Christian, you are a bad person, and that Good Christians a)help anyone in need, b)consider others before themselves, and c)believe that Jesus Christ was the Savior, and will lead them to salvation, someone who did not believe c would not be a Good Christian as defined. The implication is that since they are a bad Christian, they are a bad person. Rather than calling into question whether or not they are a bad Christian (they clearly are), one needs to be calling into question the *implications* of being a bad Christian, namely whether or not that person is a bad person.


We're not talking about bad people. We're talking about rape culture. You seem to be preemptively jumping the gun, saying "I agree with parts of rape culture. How dare you call me a bad person!" when in fact nobody called you a bad person. It seems really bad to me that we're arguing about whether rape culture is a good or a bad thing, or whether some hypothetical anti-rape culture (oh how I wish that was a real thing) has gone too far, or whether victims share blame for their rape. This stuff is Rape Culture 101.

I find it interesting that instead of arguing that attitude X is not part of rape culture, you simply decide that rape culture overlaps with some of your views so it can't possibly be all bad. And if the consequences of assigning rape victims any portion of blame for the rape still need mentioning, something is wrong here.

I am hoping that this isn't a radical idea. If it is, the posters on this board are a lot less rational than I thought. However, it is a step in my thought process, and I'm showing my work in arriving at my conclusion. I missed the step of "I think that one of the beliefs that falls under the umbrella of 'rape culture' is in fact valid.


Sarcasm. Apparently, you view it as a radical idea, given that you accept a part of rape culture as a valid viewpoint. The line of reasoning here is "I believe something that is a part of rape culture so rape culture must not be so bad" (also, "therefore, we should take this thing I believe out of the picture when we're defining rape culture because rape culture should be a bad thing but including my belief makes it less so").

No. Look at my postcount; I am not even a particularly active poster here.


More sarcasm. The thinking that there is a widespread "anti-rape" culture and that it needs to be "toned down" is very similar to the thinking that produced the (summarily locked) Safespace For Men thread.

TL;DR

To simplify things, here is my entire chain of reasoning step-by step.
1) The term "Rape Culture" covers everyone who
-does not treat consent as important
-uses unethical means to obtain consent in any way whatsoever
-puts any of the blame on the victim for any reason whatsoever
-gives any sympathy to the rapist for any reason whatsoever
and has the implication that
-the participant in this culture needs to change their views or they are a bad and irrational person.
2) I give some sympathy to the rapist and assign some blame (to the extent that assigning blame is even useful) to the victim **in a few very particular situations**. I do not assign 100% of blame or sympathy to one person all the time.
3) This makes me a part of rape culture.
4) I can defend my view that cases are not always so clear-cut that 100% of the blame can be assigned to the rapist, and 100% of the sympathy can be assigned to the victim.
5) I am not an irrational person, whether or not I fall under the arbitrary label of "bad"
6) If we want to keep the conclusions of the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture", we need to make sure that all of the precursors that lead to this conclusion are valid.
7) We want to keep the conclusions to the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture".
8 ) The implications of the term "Rape Culture" are inaccurate for at least one situation that I can think of (myself).
9) We need to change or at least qualify the precursors that lead to these conclusions. I have suggested how to do this in my previous post.

Clearly, you disagree with the conclusion of my reasoning, so could you please point out which particular step of my reasoning you find fault with?



"Bad person" does not *necessarily* go along with "a person who is a part of rape culture" (since it's a part of the larger culture a person is in, it's often unexamined and deeply ingrained). There's a certain correlation to be sure, but the point is not self-flagellation; it's to reexamine and remake attitudes. Wallowing in "I'm not a bad person, so I don't have bad beliefs, so my beliefs must not be bad" is not only circular reasoning, it's counterproductive.

And I do not believe that rape is ever, in any way, shape or form, the victim's fault even a teensy, tiny, teeny little itty bit. Ever, ever, ever. You're trying to construct edge cases where you're arguing against that it's not rape rape, or the victim is to blame, or the victim should have prevented the rape, a behavior that mods keep explicitly requesting we not do.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:14 am UTC

TL;DR

To simplify things, here is my entire chain of reasoning step-by step.
1) The term "Rape Culture" covers everyone who
-does not treat consent as important
-uses unethical means to obtain consent in any way whatsoever
-puts any of the blame on the victim for any reason whatsoever
-gives any sympathy to the rapist for any reason whatsoever
and has the implication that
-the participant in this culture needs to change their views or they are a bad and irrational person.
You wrote bad and irrational, not me. I think you are a part of rape culture. I think being a person who has been raped more than once makes me a part of rape culture too. The parts of it that we are are not the binary of rapist and victim. There's much more to it than that.
I think this whole discussion can't be dissected in a way that makes justifications for blaming the victim acceptable, but you seem to? I don't htink the words 'whatsoever' are necessary in that list. Are you tryingn to suggest that there is an acceptable non-rape means to unethically obtain consent? Does that even make grammatical sense? I am unsure.

2) I give some sympathy to the rapist and assign some blame (to the extent that assigning blame is even useful) to the victim **in a few very particular situations**. I do not assign 100% of blame or sympathy to one person all the time.
3) This makes me a part of rape culture.
4) I can defend my view that cases are not always so clear-cut that 100% of the blame can be assigned to the rapist, and 100% of the sympathy can be assigned to the victim.
5) I am not an irrational person, whether or not I fall under the arbitrary label of "bad"
6) If we want to keep the conclusions of the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture", we need to make sure that all of the precursors that lead to this conclusion are valid.
7) We want to keep the conclusions to the statement "you are a part of Rape Culture".
8 ) The implications of the term "Rape Culture" are inaccurate for at least one situation that I can think of (myself).
9) We need to change or at least qualify the precursors that lead to these conclusions. I have suggested how to do this in my previous post.

A lot of things make you a part of rape culture.
The fact that you are wiling to take rape and say 'both parties can be to blame' and feel the need to point that out to us as though it is statistically significant really does get to me.
You as a person are not being judged when I say that you are a part of rape culture. Your actions and opinions and the affect they have on whether or not more rapes happen, that's what I'm judging. Reminding victims that they share the blame doesn't actually help anyone out, least of all them. All it does is make it easier on people who are willing to rape and coerce. I think some of your beliefs are incorrect as a result of you being subjected to rape culture without definition or notification of such an aspect of our culture, but I don't think that makes you a bad person. I don't, either, think I was posting the position that there is a binary of who is and who isn't taking part in rape culture because I don't believe that. Everyone takes part. Everyone does something different.
I believe that rape culture exists among humans.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:06 am UTC

Implying that anti-rape culture does not exist is to act as if these forums and the common attitudes here don't exist. Anti-rape culture is a mindset that I agree with, for the most part. I disagree, however, that blame should be applied entirely to rapists and not at all to victims in every case imaginable. I believe that the only time blame is valid is when by acting differently, someone could have avoided an undesirable situation. In the vast majority of rapes, the victim in fact could not have reasonably been expected to act in a different way such that the rape would not have occurred. To say that this is invariably true, however, is to demonstrate that you believe that any level of risk prevention by potential victims is valueless, which I'm pretty sure is not your intention. It is, however, the logical conclusion of your statements is that one.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:20 am UTC

No, saying anti-rape culture exists is like saying a pro-mudkips culture exists. Not in the world as a whole, it doesn't. It implies a large cultural force, which simply isn't there.

So, if I'm walking across the street at a properly labelled crosswalk at a red light, if a drunk driver hits me I share blame? After all, by not being there at that time and that place, I could have avoided that undesirable situation.

It is not my responsibility to avoid being raped any more than it is my responsibility to avoid being murdered. Saying prevention measures are worthless does not follow from that statement (of course, prevention measures ARE almost worthless, being that there's no way to prevent rape on my end. Statistically, I can best prevent rape by not having a boyfriend or husband ever.)

I find your victim blaming, frankly, disgusting.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:25 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Implying that anti-rape culture does not exist is to act as if these forums and the common attitudes here don't exist. Anti-rape culture is a mindset that I agree with, for the most part. I disagree, however, that blame should be applied entirely to rapists and not at all to victims in every case imaginable. I believe that the only time blame is valid is when by acting differently, someone could have avoided an undesirable situation. In the vast majority of rapes, the victim in fact could not have reasonably been expected to act in a different way such that the rape would not have occurred. To say that this is invariably true, however, is to demonstrate that you believe that any level of risk prevention by potential victims is valueless, which I'm pretty sure is not your intention. It is, however, the logical conclusion of your statements is that one.

Yeah, here's the thing.

Being a victim of rape is something that happens when one is in the presence of a rapist, not when one is in the presence of just any other person. I don't believe that any situation with humans could become rape. Someone has to do it to someone else. You don't get to call the tendency of people to blame a victim anti-rape culture unless rape happens between say, a person and nature. Like an earthquake! "We should build better buildings to withstand these earthquakes" makes sense. "We should make sure the people who are likely to be victimised do what they can to prevent said victimisation!" pretends that the perpetration of such an act is unpreventable. I'm pretty sure that rape, unlike earthquakes, happens because someone raped someone else. So I guess you just had my intention wrong.

Call me crazy, but i think if humans can build a damn iPhone they can decide not to rape someone.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:31 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:the only time blame is valid is when by acting differently, someone could have avoided an undesirable situation.
Then the logical conclusion of *your* statements is that almost everyone is to blame for almost everything, because by staying home and never meeting anyone ever, most bad things that have happened to people could have been avoided.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:31 am UTC

In your earthquake analogy, we do in fact do something to prevent injury to people besides building better buildings. It's called evacuation, and it's more effective than stronger buildings alone. In a discussion about earthquake safety, I would advocate every method to reduce injury. This includes both more stringent building codes and eduction to people about what to do in an earthquake (stand under doorframes until shaking stops and then leave the building and go to an open area outside.

Rape is just as inevitable as earthquake injuries, that is to say not at all. Assigning blame is counterproductive, as it allows people to say "there is nothing I need to change about my behavior". I am against assigning blame if that blame is not going to lead to risk mitigation. There is nowhere I said that we should not focus on keeping people from becoming rapists, but there are 7 billion people in this word. We can focus on more than one rape prevention strategy at a time. The way you are approaching this is very similar to those people who ask why we are focusing on space research when there are children starving in africa. While you may not be able to focus on more than 1 thing at a time, 7 billion people have an enormous amount of focus at their collective disposal.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:08 am UTC

Funnily enough, when people make fairly informative blogs about things that women do to prevent being raped, people say these are 'condemning innocent men.' Woop, self-referential thread is self-referential.

There's no-one here who thinks that there aren't things someone can do to prevent themselves being raped, or that these things shouldn't be public knowledge (and I'm pretty sure that you're in agreement with us that it's pretty shit that women (specifically) have to resort to these precautions to not be raped). But the thing that you seem to be implying here is that we should be sitting down with rape victims after the fact and saying 'It's a terrible thing that just happened, but what can *you* do to prevent it happening next time.' Firstly, this is implying that the victim *should've* (not could've, but should've) done something to prevent the rape from happening, and secondly, it's putting the idea that this might happen again into the head of someone who is currently in a really bad emotional place. Both of which are horrid things to do to anyone, and I hope you've never done them to any of your friends.

Given that there's plenty of people who have posted in this thread that have been raped, I'm sure that some of them can tell you that in the aftermath they *did* become more cautious and do stuff to prevent it from happening again. Going with the earthquake analogy; if you've sat in your house during the rumblings only to be hit in the head and buried under rubble for a few hours, chances are you're going to plan your escape routes and be out of your house/workplace/etc as soon as anything happens next time. But going to the hospital and telling the victim how they should have made it out of the front door in time to not get hit in the head isn't going to teach them anything, and simply makes you look like a dick.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:36 am UTC

I am not saying that one should give advice on how to prevent rape to rape victims. That is a horrible idea, what that person needs is emotional support and condolences. What I am saying is that information on how to recognize potentially hazardous situations and avoid them should be easily accessible to *potential* rape victims, much like the "stand under a doorframe" advice is given to people *before* they are in an earthquake. Yes, this will lead to people who are unfairly judged who would not have committed rape. This is still preferable to a situation in which people are not aware of potentially hazardous situations and make an incorrect judgement due to a lack of risk prevention information.

To draw another analogy, look at employee theft. While the employee who steals from his employer is clearly the offender in this situation, the employer still could have taken action that would have decreased the likelihood of the theft occurring. There are many warning signs for situations in which employees may be committing theft, and if the employer was aware of these signs but did not investigate further, they share some of the blame, though obviously the vast majority belongs on the thief. I imagine that there is similar information for potential rape victims, but right now it seems like people really, really don't want to explore those avenues in addition to the ones about how to stop potential rapists from raping people. In particular, I imagine that nonviolent rapes could frequently be prevented by either party if the victim was able to recognize the situation very early and avoid it.

I am increasingly getting the impression that there is a disconnect between the way I use the word "blame" and the way the people here use it. I use "blame" to mean "recognizing that a person could have taken a different action and thus prevented an undesirable result". Is that the way you guys define it, or am I using a nonstandard definition for the word?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby TheAmazingRando » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:48 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:I am increasingly getting the impression that there is a disconnect between the way I use the word "blame" and the way the people here use it. I use "blame" to mean "recognizing that a person could have taken a different action and thus prevented an undesirable result". Is that the way you guys define it, or am I using a nonstandard definition for the word?
The problem is, most of the time, the things a woman would need to do to actually reduce their chances of being raped (without some sort of magic rapist detector) are incredibly limiting, socially. Things like "don't drink," or "don't talk to strangers." Or, hell, since most rapists are people the victims trust, "don't ever trust anybody." These are not the sort of rules we should expect all women to follow, nor should we make women feel bad for breaking them. As far as I'm aware, there aren't many consistent factors in incidences of rape other than the presence of a rapist, and most rapists are ordinary people, not monsters that give you creepy vibes.

By your definition, you could "blame" the victim of a hit and run for driving a car. After all, if they weren't driving, they wouldn't have been on the road. They could have prevented the situation by walking or staying home. What's the purpose of this sort of blame?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:11 am UTC

I don't get what you're saying that people here don't agree with. I don't think anyone here has advocated against information for people on ways of preventing being raped. What people have advocated is that despite all the advice you can give to someone, it's still *not their fault* when they get raped. People should feel free to dance naked on pub tables and point fingers at others then explain that they're joking and retain the right to body autonomy afterwards when they say they were only doing it for fun, not because they want sex. Of course, they should also be fairly certain that the police will take them away for public indecency, but that's a different thing entirely.

Furthermore, if you agree with this sentiment, the problem that people have is that in a thread about rape culture you and everyone else seems to want to make a huge point about how 'people need to know how to not get raped', as if there was a statistically significant proportion of people who realistically had it in their power to prevent being raped without staying home, not dating, not making friends, and turning in to crazy cat people. The amount of fuss being made about this is greatly out of proportion to the amount of cases where it will occur.

To put it simply, if I was given $20 million and told to design an advertising campaign to try to prevent rapes, I would spend maybe $19 million of that on advertisements with the intent of making grey rape, coersive sex and all the etcetera not socially acceptable. The last million dollars would go towards a website detailing strategies on how to not get raped, or something similar. You're making $10 million dollars worth of fuss about this smaller issue, and in doing so you're neglecting the bigger issue.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:52 am UTC

I appreciate the sentiment, but it would be generous to call the amount of fuss I am making worth even $10, much less $10 million. Also, my ratio of money spent would probably be something closer to 400:1 on preventing rapists:preventing victims, for reasons I will discuss below. However, if I was given $10M for either cause alone, I would still spend it. Effort is not limited to one method at a time, as the posters here seem to treat it. I have nothing useful to contribute in the "preventing rapists" category that I have not already shared, so I am contributing in the other category.


Advice like "don't drink" is not the advice I would use. Advice like "drinking may increase your risk of being raped (as well as getting into a DUI type situation)" is more useful, as it allows people to evaluate tradeoffs rather than simply giving hard and fast rules. If they decide that the social interaction of drinking is worth an elevated risk of rape, that is their decision. Are the things that reduce the risk of rape from the victim all really that vague, though? One I've heard is "avoid people who have an unjustified sense of entitlement" (could be seen as a "risk of rapist" detector). Another might be "limit yourself to x drinks" where x is the number at which you retain most of your judgement but still get the alcohol buzz.

I am absolutely supportive of anything that will decrease the chance of someone becoming a rapist. However, I have no ideas for how to do that beyond what has already been discussed in this thread and the "how to stop people from becoming rapists" thread. I am also supportive of anything that will reduce the risk of people becoming rape victims. I do believe I have some ideas that might reduce the chance of people being raped, mainly in the nonviolent alcohol-involving cases where invalid consent is given or there is a lack of consent but not an active "no". I am not pretending to have any methods that might stop violent rape or rape where clear signs that consent was not given exist.

Blame, by my definition, is incremental, not binary. There is not "blamed" and "not blamed", there is "could have taken action at x level of obviousness of leading to the undesirable result that causes n units of disutility", where the level of x is the level of blame. While driving a car clearly does increase your chance of a hit and run, there is a very low level of expectation (p~0.000005) that driving will lead to being involved in a hit and run so there is a very low level of blame that goes along with that (~0.000005*~100 units of disutility=0.0005 units of blame). Let's call the disutility of rape 1000. If someone is trusts someone and knows them very well, there is a very very very very very very very very very small expectation that can be pragmatically considered zero that that person will rape them (p~0.00000001), and thus they have a very very very very very very very very very small amount of corresponding blame that is pragmatically zero (0.00000001*1000=0.0001 units of blame). Drinking in a social environment such as a college might simply have a very very small expectation of leading to rape (p~0.0001), and thus a corresponding blame of 0.0001*1000=0.1 units. The rapist in this situation has a very high expectation that his actions will lead to rape (call it p=0.4), and thus gets (1000*0.4=400 units of blame). Since blame in the case of the rapist is 400 and the victim is 0.1, we can say that 99.975% of the blame belongs with the rapist and 0.025% belongs with the victim, though I believe percentages are meaningless and in fact counterproductive when applied to blame. Some situations call for more total blame than others. If you add in heavy drinking and a one one one interaction with a guy, the rape probability might rise to 0.005, thus leading to 5 full units of blame on the victim and 400 on the perpetrator (still a relatively low amount). At this point it might be worth making sure that the victim actually knows the level of risk they are running.

The situation in which this actually came up was one in which the "rapist" says that he will end their relationship if there is no sex. There is a probability of effectively 1 that sex will occur if sex occurs, and the "victim" in this case knows it just as well as the perpetrator. However, the victim has a clear route with 0 probability of non-consensual sex, so if we assume that both parties have uninhibited judgement, blame is fairly equally assigned between parties, though the ultimatum issuer does deserve a bit more for anticipating a lapse in judgement of the victim. Here is where blame may be assigned at around 250 units for the perpetrator and possibly 100 units on the victim. The victim should have a high expectation that the action of keeping the relationship would have that effect.

I believe that even 1 unit of blame is worth preventing (I equate a unit of utility to around a day's living expenses, and in my system a unit of blame is equal to an expectation of a unit of disutility). 0.0001 units probably would not be worth worrying about, or even pointing out. 400 is definitely worth investing a large amount of thought and effort into, but 5 is worth a significant amount of effort as well, and I was suggesting that perhaps we should work on preventing both.

If blame is binary and just "something I don't want to get on me", I don't see much use in it and will stop talking about it.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:13 am UTC

No.

Just... No.

No.

There is a difference between saying 'if you didn't do this, then the rape might not have happened' and saying 'your actions here are to blame in part for being raped'. When you say the second, you are victim-blaming. Plain and simple. And what you've just done is victim-blaming by numbers, which is even more mindboggling.

Stop saying that people who get raped are to blame for their actions, regardless of how small an amount of the blame you wish to confer upon them. Blame does not come into the discussion of 'how can we prevent this from happening again'. You can have the discussion of 'people should be more educated about how to prevent giving people opportunities to rape them' without trying to assign blame.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:46 am UTC

dedalus wrote:There is a difference between saying 'if you didn't do this, then the rape might not have happened' and saying 'your actions here are to blame in part for being raped'. When you say the second, you are victim-blaming. Plain and simple.

Clearly I do have a different definition of blame than you. In my definition "if you didn't do action a, result b would not have happened" and "action a is to blame for result b" are synonymous. Since that is not the definition you were using, I apologise for any confusion I may have caused, and from this point until such a time as I understand what is meant by "blame", I will not use the term.

Rephrasing this. I believe there are things potential victims are not currently doing to reduce risk. I believe that we should make available any pertinent information on how to identify possible rape situations before they occur, to the extent that this is practically possible. In doing so, we may come across ways to prevent rapists from committing the act as an added bonus. Do you still disagree with my idea, or was it an unclear attempt to explain it that you objected to?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:05 am UTC

I think everyone agrees with that, inasmuch as it doesn't distract from the fact that when a rape occurs, the victim isn't to blame.

For the record, the difference as far as I know is to do with assigning responsibility and fault. I.E. if you are to blame, you are at fault, and somewhat responsible - you have done something wrong. If people do not take steps to prevent themselves getting raped, they are not doing anything *wrong* (although some might say that dancing naked on tabletops in public is wrong for different reasons*). They might have not done something that, had they done it, they would have lowered the chance of being raped. But that doesn't mean they were *wrong* to not have taken whatever action we're talking about.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:16 am UTC

If people are taking risks that they would not have taken if they had known about the risks, then there is something wrong. If they are aware of the risks but decide to proceed with the risky action because the benefits outweigh the risks, that is not wrong. If they say that the risks should be lower for the action, that is also not wrong. If they are aware of the risks but act as if the risks were lower because they thought the risks should be lower, that is wrong. "Should" doesn't change reality.

If people are engaging in risky behavior because they did not know that it was risky, they are not acting wrongly. They should, however, be informed of the risks. If they still do the behavior, knowing the risks but deciding that the benefits were worthwhile, they are still not wrong. If the risk materializes, they are completely justified in saying that the risk should be lower for that activity. If, however, they rationalized the risky behavior than it is, and act according to what the risk should be, they are behaving irrationally.

I think the first case and second case happen a lot, and the last case more commonly than it should, though it's not a conscious thought process. Thus it is important to make any information about how to avoid risky situations, especially any that are not common sense, available.

I am now really confused by what you mean by blame, if it is uncorrelated with responsibility for a result.

On the note of preventing rape from the rapist's side, I see a fairly large amount of "rape is something you don't want to be accused of, so make sure not to do anything that might possibly be constituted as rape, at all, in any way". While this may be productive, I think the deeper principle of "rape deeply hurts people, and you don't want to do that" gets lost. Rape has a stigma that emotional abuse doesn't, and focusing on preventing rape instead of preventing emotional harm in general may be leading to a disconnect between rape and harm to the victim. Perhaps a bit of focus on just how harmful it is psycologically to be used against one's will might do more than harsher punishment alone. I know that seeing the effects of rape can have profound effects on the way one thinks about sex. If you've ever talked to a rape victim, you know it is a traumatic experience that nobody should have to go through. I think a lot of people underestimate the effects of their actions on others, and the "I could cause that if I'm not careful" response could be quite powerful.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Rainsborough » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:17 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:Clearly I do have a different definition of blame than you. In my definition "if you didn't do action a, result b would not have happened" and "action a is to blame for result b" are synonymous. Since that is not the definition you were using, I apologise for any confusion I may have caused, and from this point until such a time as I understand what is meant by "blame", I will not use the term.

Rephrasing this. I believe there are things potential victims are not currently doing to reduce risk. I believe that we should make available any pertinent information on how to identify possible rape situations before they occur, to the extent that this is practically possible. In doing so, we may come across ways to prevent rapists from committing the act as an added bonus. Do you still disagree with my idea, or was it an unclear attempt to explain it that you objected to?


blame, noun. Culpability for something meriting censure.

So I guess the question is whether you think rape victims deserve censure for their apparent lack of preventative action.

On the broader point, considering that the vast majority of rapes are committed by an ex or current partner, a friend or an acquaintance (for statistic see above post); the only measures people can take to prevent rapes like that would be severely life disabling; never be alone with a friend or carry a weapon at all times. Most people know not to walk down dark alleys in the middle of the night, but that is not how most rapes occur.

On and as regards to the standing in doorways thing, that's bogus unless you live in a house more than about 50 years old, as building practices have changed, the structural integrity of doorframes has become significantly diminished.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cathy » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:22 am UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:If people are taking risks that they would not have taken if they had known about the risks, then there is something wrong. If they are aware of the risks but decide to proceed with the risky action because the benefits outweigh the risks, that is not wrong. If they say that the risks should be lower for the action, that is also not wrong. If they are aware of the risks but act as if the risks were lower because they thought the risks should be lower, that is wrong. "Should" doesn't change reality.

If people are engaging in risky behavior because they did not know that it was risky, they are not acting wrongly. They should, however, be informed of the risks. If they still do the behavior, knowing the risks but deciding that the benefits were worthwhile, they are still not wrong. If the risk materializes, they are completely justified in saying that the risk should be lower for that activity. If, however, they rationalized the risky behavior than it is, and act according to what the risk should be, they are behaving irrationally.


My emphasis added. This risk vs reward thing is a horrible way of talking about this. Every time I leave the house, according to you, I am taking a risk. By having a significant other I am taking a huge risk. By having friends and friends who sleep on my couch occasionally I am taking a very big risk. There should not be ANY risk. Rape is not inevitable! Rape is not something that you should have to LOWER YOUR PROBABILITY FOR. It should. not. happen.

Going out on a bike ride on a summer evening as a kid should NOT be a "risk that I should be informed of."
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:20 pm UTC

You are absolutely right that it should not happen. That does not change the fact that it does happen, and that there may be things you can do to reduce the risk. Stop treating the world as something that has to conform to your standards of fairness. The world isn't fair. That kid should be informed of the danger of going out on his bike, because there is a risk which he can lower, for example by wearing a helmet and not riding in the street. If you don't tell him because the world shouldn't be such that you have to, I will condemn that decision. Base your decisions off "is" before you consider "should". Better knowledge of "is" is a good thing.

Risk, on the other hand, is a *factor* in decisions. Any behavior inherently carries some risk. You could be killed tomorrow by a drunk driver, when you would have been much safer staying home. This does not mean you should stay home, because the benefits of going out are high enough to justify it. Likewise, you have judged that having friends over on your couch is worth the risk that one of them will rape you. I admire you greatly for that judgement. If that happened, it would have been preventable, but that doesn't mean that you should have acted such that it didn't happen. You can act perfectly rationally, and that doesn't prevent bad things from happening.

It's a very good thing to discuss how the world we live in could be improved, but keep in mind that we live in the "is" world, not the "should" world. You shouldn't have to worry about your friends raping you, but that is a risk and you should consider it as such.

You can't control the actions of others. You can control the actions of you.

By this viewpoint, telling people that they *can* reduce their risks by certain actions, but don't tell them that they *should* implement those actions. That's their decision and theirs alone. To bring this from hypotheticals to the real world, here is a sample list of guidelines.

1) If someone acts like they have a sense of entitlement to sex, be aware of any situation that would put the two of you alone.
2) Be aware if someone is trying to get you to drink.
3) Be particularly cautious around recent exes, and consider staying in a group environment if you are uncomfortable with the situation
4) Make it abundantly clear that you are resisting a sexual advance when doing so.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Randomizer » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:05 pm UTC

My plan is to create an army of doppleganger robots and then place them in situations in which they are vulnerable and could be taken advantage of. Then, when someone does try to take advantage, they will either be "passed out drunk" or offer sufficient resistance such that there is no question that sex is definitely unwanted. Then, when they are overpowered and penetrated, their artificial orifices will clamp down on the perpetrator and the robot will do horrible things to them such that it is guaranteed that such villainous maneuvers will never again be attempted by said person.

What? It's educational. >_>
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

@A_P_L: When I say wrong, I'm talking in a moral sense - this is what 'blame' is attached to. Is English your first language (not meaning to be insulting, just wondering, because I hadn't been very specific here).

You're making points that no-one is arguing against. You're saying 'we should tell people to do X', and we're saying 'when people don't follow X and *someone else* does something to them because of it, the actions of the victim aren't to blame for what happened.'
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Enuja » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:08 pm UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan, I get that you are trying to be logical. I get that this just sounds sensible to you. But absolutely everybody reading your posts (and people not reading them because they are very triggering*) already knows everything you are trying to say. In fact, most of us know a lot more about what makes people more likely to be raped than you do. You know, like having a rapist who was a member of the family or a family friend or a babysitter while we were kids. Or being in a relationship with an angry, violent person. Or being old, weak, isolated and alone. None of which you listed. But the biggest issue with your list, one of the central reasons that rape is common in our society, and the most common thing people mean when they say "rape culture", is that your list is directed at victims, not at perpetrators.

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:You can't control the actions of others. You can control the actions of you.
The most effective way to reduce the amount of rape is to stop people from raping. To tell people that they must get consent with prospective sex partners before they have sex. To tell people not to take their anger and frustration out on other people. Not just rape victims are reading this thread: rapists are also reading this thread. People reading this thread can control their own actions, and prevent rape by not raping. Everyone reading this thread (yes, including me) is a potential rapist. Dividing victims and perpetrators by gender is also part of the problem. Everyone can benefit from advice on how not to rape. But most of us do not benefit from advice on how not to get raped. Because the central way to avoid being raped is to be all-powerful and invulnerable (like God or a super-hero), and none of us have the power to do that.

The fact that our society is rife with advice on how to avoid getting raped, but not advice on how to avoid raping, is a central way our society promotes rape. By treating rapists like earthquakes -- a natural risk that we just have to adapt to -- we are skipping out on tons of opportunities to actually reduce rape. If we treat actual and potential rapists like the human beings they actually are, we can come up with ways to keep ourselves from raping.

The fact that it is considered good advice to tell people how to avoid getting raped (to treat them like possible victims), but obnoxious to tell people how not to rape (to treat them like possible perpetrators), is a central part of the problem. Especially in the way this advice is usually gendered, it makes women all potential victims, but it makes potential rapists an unreachable other. This "othering" of rapists promotes rape by making people think that they can't be rapists because they are good people.



Edited to ad:
*Your posts are triggering in large part because of your use of the word "blame," which usually has the connotation of "moral fault," and, even when it doesn't, is always a post-event assignment of responsibility, which is never useful (does not help the victim, does not help society) to do to the victim of a crime.
Last edited by Enuja on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:42 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:15 pm UTC

A_pathetic_lizardmnan wrote:In my definition "if you didn't do action a, result b would not have happened" and "action a is to blame for result b" are synonymous. Since that is not the definition you were using, I apologise for any confusion I may have caused, and from this point until such a time as I understand what is meant by "blame", I will not use the term.
Good. Because your "definition" is completely ridiculous. As I said, by that account, everyone is to blame for pretty much everything bad that ever happens to them.

By your twisted logic, if anything bad happens to me in Boston, I am to blame for it, because it wouldn't have happened had I chosen to move somewhere else instead. And that's fucking stupid.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

And yet another thread about rape is back to "sometimes victims should be blamed".

Why is it that every single conversation about rape seems to wind up at someone (most often a male, white, straight someone) saying "but soooooooooooooooooooooometimes victims are to blame as well"???

The focus of the conversation shouldn't be on some theoretical/hypothetical situation that some random privileged person dreamed up. It should be on what actually happens in the vast majority of rapes.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Icewedge » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:And yet another thread about rape is back to "sometimes victims should be blamed".

Why is it that every single conversation about rape seems to wind up at someone (most often a male, white, straight someone) saying "but soooooooooooooooooooooometimes victims are to blame as well"???

The focus of the conversation shouldn't be on some theoretical/hypothetical situation that some random privileged person dreamed up. It should be on what actually happens in the vast majority of rapes.


Trite straw man there

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:46 pm UTC

Actually, no.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby aoeu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:By your twisted logic, if anything bad happens to me in Boston, I am to blame for it, because it wouldn't have happened had I chosen to move somewhere else instead. And that's fucking stupid.

What's so twisted about it? And why do you assume it would not have happened if you had moved elsewhere? If you knew that can't it be rightfully said you were to blame for what happened? Yes.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:35 pm UTC

Changing topic a bit (if there truly is nothing that potential victims can be reasonably expected to do, my idea that the world should not be that unfair has no bearing on whether it is and I will abandon the idea), what can we personally do to prevent rape? Because it's very easy to discuss what other people or "society" should be doing, but getting things done in the real world usually involves doing them yourself.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:By your twisted logic, if anything bad happens to me in Boston, I am to blame for it, because it wouldn't have happened had I chosen to move somewhere else instead. And that's fucking stupid.
What's so twisted about it? And why do you assume it would not have happened if you had moved elsewhere?
If I get hit by a car crossing Massachusetts Avenue on my way to the Dunkin' Donuts, I know damn well that wouldn't have happened if I'd moved to San Francisco instead. Might I have been hit by a different car while crossing a different street to get breakfast somewhere else? Sure. Just like staying home and never drinking won't prevent someone from getting raped by their spouse or a family member.

The point is, *every* particular thing that happens to someone could have been avoided if they had made some different choice at some earlier time. And if you use the word "blame" to describe that, then you've twisted all the meaning out of it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby aoeu » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
aoeu wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:By your twisted logic, if anything bad happens to me in Boston, I am to blame for it, because it wouldn't have happened had I chosen to move somewhere else instead. And that's fucking stupid.
What's so twisted about it? And why do you assume it would not have happened if you had moved elsewhere?
If I get hit by a car crossing Massachusetts Avenue on my way to the Dunkin' Donuts, I know damn well that wouldn't have happened if I'd moved to San Francisco instead. Might I have been hit by a different car while crossing a different street to get breakfast somewhere else? Sure. Just like staying home and never drinking won't prevent someone from getting raped by their spouse or a family member.

The point is, *every* particular thing that happens to someone could have been avoided if they had made some different choice at some earlier time. And if you use the word "blame" to describe that, then you've twisted all the meaning out of it.


The fact that you were in a car accident a lot more pertinent than the color of the car. There certainly are things you can't run away from. Death is the trivial example, but these also arise from things like poverty, running out of time, or not being able to be at multiple places at once. But the fundamental disagreement here is on whether "blaming" should include people getting themselves hurt. I have a feeling that if the terminology is not agreed upon any debate is going to be just an endless play on words.


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