Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:26 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:But what do you think was more likely to make a change, the things that were targeted at potential perpetrators or those targeted at potential victims.


http://droppingthefbomb.tumblr.com/post ... er-warning

A lot of people think they are helping by telling people not to avoid “risky behavior”.

I just have to show you how impractical this is.

In the UK fewer than 17% of rape are committed by strangers. And only 13 percent take place in a public space. Half of all female murder victims world- wide are killed by a current or former partner. And most rape victims KNOW THEIR ATTACKER. Yet in the UK 54.4% of assaults reported in the press were committed by strangers and always in public.

In America 73% of sexual assaults are committed by a non-stranger. 38% of rapists are friends or acquaintances of the victims. 28% are intimate partners of the victims. 7% are relatives of the victims. 6 in 10 rapes occur in the home of the victim, or in the home of a friend or relative of the victim. Tell me how I am supposed to avoid risky behaviour in this instance. The “judgement prevents rape” argument falters in reality, at least 73% of the time.

These people were not in any RISKY BEHAVIOUR. They was no “deviant” person hiding behind the bushes ready to pounce. Stop reinforcing the idea that rapists are hiding in parking garages or in the often-called-upon “dark alley.” the assumption that rape, on the whole, happens when someone leaves a bar with a stranger. These rapes do happen, and are still entirely problematic, but they are not the norm.

As the statistics show, most victims know their rapist, and most rapes occur in a home setting. Statistically, you are more likely to be raped by your boyfriend or husband than you are by a stranger. So should I avoid having a boyfriend or a husband as this is more likely to get me raped?

I agree that people do act in the interest of their own safety, regardless of gender. We could say, “Stay out of that dark alley!” but you probably already are for the most part. Any of the things that we could think of suggesting had nothing to do with rape at all, but instead with protecting general personal safety, which is something people of both genders do already for the most part.

The idea if you dress in sexy attire, you are making yourself more at risk is complete and utter bullshit. People are raped in sexy, going out ensembles, but they are also raped in sweatpants, baggy tee shirts, burqas, and suits. Dress does not imply consent, and historically rapists do not appear to put much thought into what a victim is wearing in deciding if they should rape them or not.

I’ve even seen arguments of people suggesting that women and girls should avoid hanging out unsupervised in all-male groups, or hanging out one-on-one with male friends. PLEASE TRY NOT TO TRIP OVER THAT LOW BAR YOU HAVE SET FOR ALL MEN. This argument is incredibly insulting to men. It implies that men have no moral compass that would incite them to stop one friend from raping another, and that they are entirely out of control of their ability to monitor their own behavior.

The first thing we need to be able to do if we want to have honest, open discussion about rape is challenge the assumptions we have about where rape happens and who commits it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:47 pm UTC

I’ve even seen arguments of people suggesting that women and girls should avoid hanging out unsupervised in all-male groups, or hanging out one-on-one with male friends.
In addition to how problematic it is to suggest that men will inevitably rape if left to their own devices, there's the thing that's been brought up here a couple times already: If any woman *does* heed that suggestion, and makes an effort never to be the only woman among one or more men, people will inevitably criticize her for being crazy and paranoid.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:51 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Boomase wrote:So it is actually logical for most guys to relate with "guy falsely accused" and jules.

What is illogical is for that to then be used as justification for dominating the discussion with "the possibility of false accusation". It is logical to have a fear; it is not logical to allow that fear to have a disproportionate impact.

It's not a justification, it's an attempt at an explanation. Which you should be interested in if you cared to understand more about the subject rather than just ranting about it.
Oh, and you got me right, Boomase. I'm not sure how else it could be understood...

Also, Aariele: the way you cut that quote is completely misleading about what my name is doing in Boomase's phrase.


podbaydoor wrote:The "how to protect yourself"-only approach is simply not working, it's not enough.

FTFY
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:It's not a justification, it's an attempt at an explanation.
Which you should be interested in if you cared to understand more about the subject rather than just ranting about it.

You assume that it's an explanation which has never been heard before, but that's not the case. You can throw plenty of explanations all over the place; that doesn't make the results any different.

If you want me to be interested in something, propose a viable way of fixing it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
jules.lt wrote:It's not a justification, it's an attempt at an explanation. Which you should be interested in if you cared to understand more about the subject rather than just ranting about it.

You assume that it's an explanation which has never been heard before, but that's not the case. You can throw plenty of explanations all over the place; that doesn't make the results any different.

If you want me to be interested in something, propose a viable way of fixing it.

I made no assumption about what had been heard before elsewhere. What with how true it seems to me, it makes sense that it came up a few times already. I was just following the train of my own thoughts about the subject of what rape culture is and how it works, only to be considered to "justify" rape culture.
I sincerely believe that understanding a problem is a massive step towards solving it. Don't you?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:I sincerely believe that understanding a problem is a massive step towards solving it. Don't you?


I sincerely believe that you are not significantly contributing to understanding the overall problem by sidetracking the discussion into areas that the discussion is already commonly sidetracked into.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:51 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:I sincerely believe that you are not significantly contributing to understanding the overall problem by sidetracking the discussion into areas that the discussion is already commonly sidetracked into.

The subject is rape culture. Men giving undue weight to the possibility that a rape claim is false is a major component of rape culture.
How is looking at the possible causes in any way "sidetracking"?? :|
Do you think that you came up with many completely original ideas yourself, in this discussion ?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:Men People giving undue weight to the possibility that a rape claim is false is a major one component of rape culture.
Vaniver wrote:Harvard is a hedge fund that runs the most prestigious dating agency in the world, and incidentally employs famous scientists to do research.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby lutzj » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:16 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
jules.lt wrote:Men People giving undue weight to the possibility that a rape claim is false is a major one component of rape culture.


The article "a" already implies "one," and "Men" is a subset of "People" so you're actually broadening his argument in that sense and apparently don't disagree with the notion that this is something that men do. The only thing you could possibly be saying by editing his words, then, is that "people/men tend to empathize with accused rapists" is not a "major" component of rape culture. Are you really asserting that empathy for (alleged) attackers is a minor issue?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:20 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:The article "a" already implies "one," and "Men" is a subset of "People" so you're actually broadening his argument in that sense and apparently don't disagree with the notion that this is something that men do. The only thing you could possibly be saying by editing his words, then, is that "people tend to empathize with accused rapists" is not a "major" component of rape culture. Are you really asserting that empathy for (alleged) attackers is a minor issue?


No, I'm asserting that it is (a) not the only issue, and (b) the issue that lots of discussions already tend to focus on. The removal of "major" was designed to remove language that implies that it should dominate discussion. Major and minor are semantically loaded terms for what should be relatively equally considered aspects.

Furthermore, yes, "men" is a subset of "people" - but the explanation that jules.lt was forwarding does not apply to "people" as a whole, only to that particular subset of "men".
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Boomase » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:40 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Boomase wrote:But what do you think was more likely to make a change, the things that were targeted at potential perpetrators or those targeted at potential victims.

http://droppingthefbomb.tumblr.com/post/6103290872/the-real-face-of-rapists-trigger-warning


Well when I made that statement I was talking specifically about a college campus, and I guess that's how I'm geared towards thinking. With that a lot what is said in the article doesn't really apply, since I think the numbers would be a lot different than in general. But let's just take the "Tell me how I am supposed to avoid risky behaviour in this instance." Look I don't think anyone is saying that all that needs to be done is tell girls (/guys) to be careful and if they still get raped it's their fault. No one's saying that. I agree with podbaydoor and I think most people that the approach has to be double edged. But the way people reacted to the jerk-resistant post made it seem like this was the worst idea ever. Maybe it was the word "instead" that did it, but in general strengthening potential victims is an effective way to reduce a crime. Not eliminate, but reduce. This is just as true with murder as it is with rape. And being jerk-resistant doesn't mean "avoiding dark allies". It's about empowering the victims before and after the crime, which as as much about being confident to say no to your husband as anything else. So then you say well certain number of rapes are completely unavoidable and the perpetrator isn't a stranger to the victim and no amount of precaution would help. Well then I don't really know what to say. Podbaydoor said that people need to be aware of what rape is, that it's more than just the dark alley, giving a description of guys with some terrible attitudes. Something about this just doesn't click with me, I think it's something along the lines of if a guy really thinks "Frigid bitch. Just get some alcohol in her and she'll put out," should it really matter whether or not the term rape applies here? If they don't think there's anything wrong with doing that, telling them that the same word used for the dark alley situation applies here is useless, they'll just continue thinking "whatever it might be called rape but it's not technically rape cause it's not like I violently forced myself on her right?" Just as important as teaching people that "Frigid bitch. Just get some alcohol in her and she'll put out," -> "rape" is convincing them that "Frigid bitch. Just get some alcohol in her and she'll put out," is a morally disgusting and a terrible attitude to have. And that's not easy. I think the whole jerk-resistant thing comes down to Yea obviously there's a problem with people's attitudes towards when it is and isn't OK to have sex, but it's not an easy fix with a little education. Changing someone's morals and beliefs is one of the most impossible things to do.


There has been quite a few discussion on why telling someone to be safe, and avoid getting themselves in bad situation, is NOT victim blaming.

Sit down and listen.

This is still victim blaming. You are still perpetuating Rape Culture


And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:51 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:No, I'm asserting that it is (a) not the only issue, and (b) the issue that lots of discussions already tend to focus on. The removal of "major" was designed to remove language that implies that it should dominate discussion. Major and minor are semantically loaded terms for what should be relatively equally considered aspects.

Furthermore, yes, "men" is a subset of "people" - but the explanation that jules.lt was forwarding does not apply to "people" as a whole, only to that particular subset of "men".

Major/important/whatever. It's just part of the subject at hand.
Stop telling us what's not worth discussing. Talk about what you feel is important.

Boomase wrote:Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.


Which would be nice if that actually occurred; call me cynical if you wish, but the latter is so easily twisted by society *into* the former that it can still be problematic, even if that's not the original intent at all.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:09 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:With that a lot what is said in the article doesn't really apply, since I think the numbers would be a lot different than in general.

[citation needed]

Boomase wrote:And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.


When 99% of the conversation winds up being about what helps 1% of the time, there's a problem.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Box Boy » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming?

No, that's just useless because there are no 'special' precautions you can take to prevent rape that aren't already general safety precautions (don't go into dark alleys alone, for example).
It's when you start to get into 'well you shouldn't wear that short skirt/low buttoned t-shirt, dearie/mate' territory that it starts to imply that you can actually do things that somehow increase your chance of being raped in a manner that is entirely your fault, that you start to victim blame (if even only indirectly) and shift the blame from the scumsucker who raped sally/jimmy and onto the victim because, well, obviously, wearing those clothes in that place was just ASKING for trouble.

It's bullshit because you should be able to cake yourself in makeup, wear only a loincloth and a pair of band-aids and wave a sign saying 'betcha' want this, 'ey boys and girls?' and not have any chance of being raped whatsoever, because everyone should respect you as a fellow human being and not do that shit. Saying that someone shouldn't do it because it increases their chance of rape and that it's their fault for that rather than the rapist who could potentially target them for it is victim blaming, saying that they should stay safe isn't.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby omgryebread » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:48 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.
Find a young female acquaintance and ask her what people have told her about rape. 99% of what she's heard is "Be safe and avoid bad situations." Because apparently girls can't figure out to "be safe" on their own, and unless someone tells them, they go right into bad situations?

We often emphasize how dumb drinking and driving is. "Don't drink and drive" is good advice. When someone hears about someone dying in a car wreck with a high BAC, they tend to think "wow, that's really dumb." Not sure anyone has a serious problem with this. It is drunk driver's fault when they die.

The problem is the same thing happens with rape. "Be safe and avoid bad situations" is "good" advice (not really, it's stupid and vapid advice, but setting that aside...). But, predictably, when we hear of a woman who got drunk at a party and got raped, we think "wow, that's really dumb." This, unlike the parallel situation above is what we call fucked up. It's not her fault, at all. Yes, maybe she could have avoided it, but it's totally, entirely, 100% the fault of the rapist.

It's also messed up that the solution society seems to want to propose is "don't get drunk, girls!" and not "hey guys, stop raping."

Here's a question, guys. How many of you, as kids, got a talk about rape? About how it's not okay, and how girls are to be respected, even drunk. My mom always told me before I left for a party in HS, "don't drink too much, always pour your own drinks, make sure you know people, keep your cell on." How many guys (or even girls) got told things like "if you think she's too drunk to consent properly, don't do it."

I can remember plenty of times hearing the day after "if you didn't want to sleep with anyone, you shouldn't have gotten drunk", both to myself and friends. I can never remember a time hearing "wow, she was way too drunk, you shouldn't have slept with her." To either myself or any friends (and I'll admit there's girls and maybe some guys who were possibly too drunk to consent properly in my party days.)


So no, an individual saying stuff like "Be safe" (assuming they give actual, valid advice, and not just vapid phrases like that) are not excusing rape. But when society as a whole super-reinforces the victim's role, then it contributes to a... well, the best word might be culture. Maybe... rape culture?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Boomase » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:
Boomase wrote:Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.


Which would be nice if that actually occurred; call me cynical if you wish, but the latter is so easily twisted by society *into* the former that it can still be problematic, even if that's not the original intent at all.


I agree with this, but that's not the words that the article spoke. I was only reacting to what I read and what was implied by it.

Aaeriele wrote:
Boomase wrote:With that a lot what is said in the article doesn't really apply, since I think the numbers would be a lot different than in general.

[citation needed]


Oh come now, saying that you're more likely to get raped by your husband than a stranger or that you're more likely to be raped at home or a relative's home doesn't even make sense when applied to a college setting. Ya those are very specific things I chose from the article, but the point is that you can't apply those general statistics to a specific environment. No evidence for this, but I would guess that on a college campus a much higher proportion of rapes do occur from people that you met at a bar/ party/whatever compared to your friend, husband, boyfriend, relative than in general, because you will tend to encounter those people at a much higher proportion than in general. No statistics to back me up, just makes sense to me you're not as likely to be raped by a relative if you're on a college campus compared to the general statistic.

Aaeriele wrote:
Boomase wrote:And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming? No. Fucking no. You can tell someone to be safe and still believe that being safe will only help in 1% of situations and the other 99% is out of their hands completely and not blame them if something happens. "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you had been safe and avoided bad situations" which is victim blaming =/= "Be safe and avoid bad situations." which is good advice.


When 99% of the conversation winds up being about what helps 1% of the time, there's a problem.


Again right, but that's not what the article said. So am I right to think that what you're saying is that telling people to be safe is similar to participating in "red ribbon week" in opposition to drugs; you do something that's more or less useless, but because you think you're helping you're less likely to do something that will actually be useful? Just like telling someone to be safe is relatively useless and distracts us from the other "99%" right? If so then I definitely agree it's just I don't think that the article communicated this very well, but that's just my opinion.

Box Boy wrote:
Boomase wrote:And no I just don't understand this. Telling someone to be safe is victim blaming?

No, that's just useless...


I disagree that it's completely useless. This is the first link that came up when I googled something like college rape statistics. http://www.mycollegesandcareers.com/2011/02/dont-become-a-college-rape-statistic-how-to-stay-safe-in-college/ I don't really think this is very good at all, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's completely useless. Obviously it's not enough, but I think i just agree that the main problem with giving this sort of advice is that people do think it's enough and don't do anything else.
Last edited by Boomase on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:So am I right to think that what you're saying is that telling people to be safe is similar to participating in "red ribbon week" in opposition to drugs; you do something that's more or less useless, but because you think you're helping you're less likely to do something that will actually be useful? Just like telling someone to be safe is relatively useless and distracts us from the other "99%" right?

Pretty much, yes.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:35 pm UTC

Boomase wrote:No evidence for this, but I would guess that on a college campus a much higher proportion of rapes do occur from people that you met at a bar/ party/whatever compared to your friend, husband, boyfriend, relative than in general, because you will tend to encounter those people at a much higher proportion than in general. No statistics to back me up, just makes sense to me you're not as likely to be raped by a relative if you're on a college campus compared to the general statistic.

[citation needed] again. People in college do have boyfriends/girlfriends as well *shock, horror*. And they also have friends. And from my experience as a uni student, we don't really go out and meet up with complete strangers all that often; usually you meet people through friends, or know them sober before you meet them whilst drinking. Hell, that website that *you* linked said 78% of rapes in college are done by a friend, partner or acquaintance.

The point we're making about it being useless is that though it might prevent 1% of rapes, the fact *that* that information makes up 99% of advice regarding rape implies that that is most of the rapes that occur. Which in turn implies that other types of rape aren't rape. And whilst you might say 'no-one is saying that', it's just one of the contributing factors to people explaining rape away (both victim and perpetrator).
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Boomase » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:
Boomase wrote:No evidence for this, but I would guess that on a college campus a much higher proportion of rapes do occur from people that you met at a bar/ party/whatever compared to your friend, husband, boyfriend, relative than in general, because you will tend to encounter those people at a much higher proportion than in general. No statistics to back me up, just makes sense to me you're not as likely to be raped by a relative if you're on a college campus compared to the general statistic.

[citation needed] again. People in college do have boyfriends/girlfriends as well *shock, horror*. And they also have friends. And from my experience as a uni student, we don't really go out and meet up with complete strangers all that often; usually you meet people through friends, or know them sober before you meet them whilst drinking. Hell, that website that *you* linked said 78% of rapes in college are done by a friend, partner or acquaintance.

Well yea I said a higher proportion compared to general, not a majority. Of course people have boyfriends/girlfriends and friends, they're also less likely to have husbands/wives or relatives there. But yea this one says 78% for college while the other said 73% in general. A higher proportion, so I guess I was wrong anyway. On the other hand the article I linked to, which to use an example for types of advice given not statistics, appears to have gotten "51 – 60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they could get away with it." from "60% of male college students “indicated some likelihood of raping or using force in certain circumstances.” " (at least that's the only thing I saw from the sources it linked to from this claim that even remotely resembled the claim") I guess most likely does apply though.

dedalus wrote:The point we're making about it being useless is that though it might prevent 1% of rapes, the fact *that* that information makes up 99% of advice regarding rape implies that that is most of the rapes that occur. Which in turn implies that other types of rape aren't rape. And whilst you might say 'no-one is saying that', it's just one of the contributing factors to people explaining rape away (both victim and perpetrator).

Yea like I said in the previous post I don't disagree with this at all. I'd just maybe use the word counterproductive instead of useless.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:58 am UTC

Boomase wrote:If they don't think there's anything wrong with doing that, telling them that the same word used for the dark alley situation applies here is useless, they'll just continue thinking "whatever it might be called rape but it's not technically rape cause it's not like I violently forced myself on her right?"

Of course, short of forcible brainwashing and/or programming, any educational efforts are not guaranteed to work 100% on a specific individual in a specific place at a specific time. However, say a guy continues to make excuses - but say his friend actually learns something from the presentation and starts thinking about it. When Guy 1 starts rationalizing his actions from last night, Guy 2 becomes uncomfortable because of the new information he has. And he says, "Dude, not cool." And right there, Guy 1 already has someone disapproving of his actions that is far more effective coming from a friend than from an impersonal instructor.

The point of education isn't that it's a magic bullet. But with this new information - and with how backwards and pervasive sexual stereotypes and attitudes are, things like "don't rape" are not as prevalent as you'd think - education seeks to change attitudes individual by individual. And those individuals will affect other individuals. So even people who cling to their old attitudes will gradually meet and learn from people who will disapprove and shame and teach them, and even if they don't change, they'll be forced to hide their beliefs or choose not to do something questionable, just because they know that the people around them will punish them for it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Iamthep » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:50 am UTC

There is a distinct lack of empathy for what men are going through during the dating process in this thread.

Not all men become James Bond as soon as they hit puberty.

Through many trials I have come to the realization that men have to make the first move when it comes to physical intimacy. This is not something I think women can fully understand. Even if women ask men out they still do not have to initiate physical intimacy. This is a uniquely male purview. I have been asked out many times. Not once has the woman initiated the first kiss.

And let me tell you, kissing a girl for the first time is scary! It is honest to god hard to think when I am around a girl I have strong feelings for. Especially when I am thinking about initiating physical intimacy for the first time. I believe there have been some studies showing this is true. (Mens IQ drops when near new attractive women. The same does not happen for women.) It certainly is true that there are certain tasks that cannot be done in parallel easily. For instance most people can count in their head while reading xor talking. But I don't think anyone can reliably count while reading out loud.

Eighty percent of the women I dated in collage and high school actually asked me out first. Not a single one went past the first date if I did not kiss them on that date. I would be happy as a clam after the first date, and the next time we talked I would get a cold shoulder. It took me a long time to figure out what was going on.

Anymore I always escalate on a date. Even when I do not feel like it. As long as I like this woman and want to see her again I have to escalate. If I kiss her goodnight and she invites me up for a drink I have to accept. In fact I have to keep escalating until she backs down. Even when I do not feel like it. Even when I am feeling a bit sick from whatever we had for dinner I have to escalate and pray she stops things before we get to her bedroom. I am only talking about first times here. Obviously, I am able to graciously decline after the first time if I am not feeling up to it.

If I don't do this there is a very good chance that I will get a cold shoulder the next time we talk. On the other hand, I have never had a woman upset at me for trying to escalate things. Women do not appreciate how hard this is. Men on the other hand do appreciate how much it sucks having to reject someone's advances.

I find it interesting that I feel like I always have to escalate and another woman on this thread feels like she always has to accept. If we were to date each other we might end up sleeping together without either of us really wanting to! This world is crazy.

I have learned two main things about relationships.
1. Men must always lead physically in the relationship. (As far as escalating physical intimacy goes.)
2. Men must never lead emotionally in the relationship. (Being in love with a person who does not yet share that feeling puts that person into a weak position. Women can be weak. Men cannot.)

Obviously there are exceptions, but most of the time you don't know the exceptions until it is too late.

Now, if you combine all the above with inexperienced youth, a young man can easily go too far too fast. He's nervous, excited, and not thinking clearly. But he does not want to hurt the woman he is with. Most likely he wants to share something incredibly amazing with that person.

That nervous, excited, dumb boy has been me. No, I have not ever been accused of rape, but reading some of the comments in this thread it makes me wonder how close I have come. And any accusation of rape would be grossly inaccurate.

I would really be interested to know the breakdown of women who accuse a man of date rape who have brothers, and/or a close father, vs not having either. Men are not evil. If women are victims of rape culture then so are men.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby symple » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:53 am UTC

--------------
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:28 am UTC

Iamthep wrote:That nervous, excited, dumb boy has been me. No, I have not ever been accused of rape, but reading some of the comments in this thread it makes me wonder how close I have come. And any accusation of rape would be grossly inaccurate.

Ok, here's the deal. You don't, ever, get to make an ultimate decision that a situation where you had sex and you wanted it didn't involve you raping someone else. Never. NEVER EVER EVER FUCKING EVER. Neither do I, neither does anyone.

What you have said in the above post is rape culture. Plain, flat and simple. You are attempting to excuse a person who has had sex with someone else against their wishes from any sort of moral guilt by virtue of them being 'nervous, dumb, and excited'. In doing this, you are placing this as a legitimate excuse for raping someone. It is not, and it never will be such an excuse. I cannot stress this enough.

No-one here is advocating (or at least I'm not) that every rapist is dropped in prison, or put on the sex offenders list, or anything. Individual cases need individual punishments, and the prison system is too full already. What we need is education that the above behaviour is wrong. Which it is. If you can't keep it away from someone in an intimate situation if they don't want it, you shouldn't be putting yourself in that situation. Go wank, or have a cold shower. Their needs to not be emotionally scarred takes priority over your want for sex.

Now seriously, swallow your pride and the wish to not have to consider whether you may have raped someone. Yes, if the current society means you feel that you think you have to do what you were doing, you're a victim of it as well, and it's shitty. But that does *not* give you the right to excuse yourself or anyone else of terrible actions.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Azrael » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:39 am UTC

Iamthep wrote:There is a distinct lack of empathy for what men are going through during the dating process in this thread.

Yes, relationships are hard. They're actually hard for both parties. But whatever the distribution of that difficulty, it pales in comparison to getting raped.

No, there is not a lack of empathy for men in this thread. This thread is focusing on not only a different topic (than relationships), but one involving violent crime.

Perspective. I think you might need some.

Men on the other hand do appreciate how much it sucks having to reject someone's advances.
I can't even begin to come up with a calm, rational explanation of just how incredibly fucking stupid this sentence is. Men appreciate the dynamics of rejecting advances? Typical social dynamic (that you cite and seem to believe heavily in) involves men making the advances -- and thus, women rejecting them. Seriously, go collect anecdotes about having to fend of skeezy advances, you're not going to find that men do it more.

(Then, of course, we can talk about how anecdotes suck. But at least a collection of them can illuminate trends)

I have learned two main things about relationships.
1. Men must always lead physically in the relationship. (As far as escalating physical intimacy goes.)
2. Men must never lead emotionally in the relationship. (Being in love with a person who does not yet share that feeling puts that person into a weak position. Women can be weak. Men cannot.)
No.

No, no no no no. These are typical dating for dummies bullshit rules. Again, relationships are hard. No simple set of rules like this actually works.

That nervous, excited, dumb boy has been me. No, I have not ever been accused of rape, but reading some of the comments in this thread it makes me wonder how close I have come. And any accusation of rape would be grossly inaccurate.
While it might be a bit frightening or overwhelming, I'm rather happy you're having this introspection. It means that, for the first time, you're thinking openly about consent. That's a good thing, and a step in the right direction. Now if only you weren't here posting how troublesome that awareness is ...

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby jules.LT » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:
Iamthep wrote:That nervous, excited, dumb boy has been me. No, I have not ever been accused of rape, but reading some of the comments in this thread it makes me wonder how close I have come. And any accusation of rape would be grossly inaccurate.

Ok, here's the deal. You don't, ever, get to make an ultimate decision that a situation where you had sex and you wanted it didn't involve you raping someone else. Never. NEVER EVER EVER FUCKING EVER. Neither do I, neither does anyone.


I'm still unsure about the maliciousness Vs stupidity issue, as compared to murder Vs manslaughter.
Would the "nervous, excited, dumb boy" be aware that the girl didn't want it and somehow be unable to control himself anyway, or would he not even realize it?

In the latter case (which I'm guessing exists, but probably isn't that common), just as for killing someone, absence of maliciousness/intent changes the nature of the crime even without changing the horrible effect on the victim.

In the first case, it's just plain rape. With all the disregard for the humanity of the victim that it entails.

As usual, please try to understand what I mean before jumping at my throat.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Hawknc » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

What dedalus is saying is that even if he didn't realise that his partner didn't (or couldn't) consent, it's still rape. That's a sobering realisation for a lot of people and resistance to the concept is not uncommon. It may change the "nature of the crime", as you say, but it doesn't change what occurred, which is sex without consent, i.e. rape.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby *bird » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

Iamthep wrote:There is a distinct lack of empathy for what men are going through during the dating process in this thread.


What the what is this I don't even...! Some of us that are in this thread are men.

Consent in this context has little to do with the "dating process". It has to do with sex.

Iamthep wrote:Not all men become James Bond as soon as they hit puberty.


Not all men can become James Bond ever. That's somewhat ethnocentrically grounded (given the "soft requirement" that Bond has to be British in the movies).

Iamthep wrote:If I don't do this there is a very good chance that I will get a cold shoulder the next time we talk. On the other hand, I have never had a woman upset at me for trying to escalate things. Women do not appreciate how hard this is. Men on the other hand do appreciate how much it sucks having to reject someone's advances.


Given what verbal crap is thrown at women who are overweight or ugly, I don't really think men actually appreciate having to reject someone's advances. If a woman gives you the cold shoulder because you did not escalate, think carefully about whether you actually want a relationship with that person.

Iamthep wrote:I find it interesting that I feel like I always have to escalate and another woman on this thread feels like she always has to accept. If we were to date each other we might end up sleeping together without either of us really wanting to! This world is crazy.

I have learned two main things about relationships.
1. Men must always lead physically in the relationship. (As far as escalating physical intimacy goes.)
2. Men must never lead emotionally in the relationship. (Being in love with a person who does not yet share that feeling puts that person into a weak position. Women can be weak. Men cannot.)


It seems that you've inherited some f'd up ideas about relationships. Is happy sexy fun time really more important than being raped?

Iamthep wrote:Now, if you combine all the above with inexperienced youth, a young man can easily go too far too fast. He's nervous, excited, and not thinking clearly. But he does not want to hurt the woman he is with. Most likely he wants to share something incredibly amazing with that person.


What should happen is that we should teach young men and young women about enthusiastic consent. This doesn't happen nearly often enough, and there is resistance to the concept. In addition, someone may think they have good intentions but still execute them problematically - Nice Guys (tm), for example, still feel entitled to relationships and women's bodies even though they often think they have the best intentions in mind (not being a so-called jerk). That is not acceptable.

Iamthep wrote:Men are not evil. If women are victims of rape culture then so are men.


There needs to be some sense of magnitude here.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:55 pm UTC

It's also interesting that James Bond would be brought up as a *positive* example for men. Because speaking of rape culture, he plays right the hell into it. It's much harder to think of Bond movies that don't include some sort of positive-outcome rape scenario than to think of the ones that do. (Okay, maybe they start "liking" it before the actual intercourse part commences, but it still definitely promotes the notion that it's okay to forcibly initiate sexual contact with someone who resists because she's sure to change her mind in a little bit, once she realizes just how damnably sexy you are.)
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Роберт » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's also interesting that James Bond would be brought up as a *positive* example for men.
Yeah, I hate James Bond mostly for what you mentioned here. Having female characters named "Pussy Galore" only makes matters worse. (Can they make their objectification of women any more obvious?)
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby mb2612 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's also interesting that James Bond would be brought up as a *positive* example for men. Because speaking of rape culture, he plays right the hell into it. It's much harder to think of Bond movies that don't include some sort of positive-outcome rape scenario than to think of the ones that do. (Okay, maybe they start "liking" it before the actual intercourse part commences, but it still definitely promotes the notion that it's okay to forcibly initiate sexual contact with someone who resists because she's sure to change her mind in a little bit, once she realizes just how damnably sexy you are.)


Is Bond being a womaniser an example of rape culture?

I think it is, but as I don't think womasing is inherently bad, would that mean some aspects of rape culture are not bad in of themselves?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Azrael » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:I'm still unsure about the maliciousness Vs stupidity issue, as compared to murder Vs manslaughter.
Would the "nervous, excited, dumb boy" be aware that the girl didn't want it and somehow be unable to control himself anyway, or would he not even realize it?

In the latter case (which I'm guessing exists, but probably isn't that common), just as for killing someone, absence of maliciousness/intent changes the nature of the crime even without changing the horrible effect on the victim.

In the first case, it's just plain rape. With all the disregard for the humanity of the victim that it entails.

The second case is just plain rape as well. Ignorance is not a fitting defense. Nor are prison sentences for rape so drastic to need yet another bifurcation - aggravated rape as a judicial concept already exists for when the violence is so significant to cause major bodily harm.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:17 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
That nervous, excited, dumb boy has been me. No, I have not ever been accused of rape, but reading some of the comments in this thread it makes me wonder how close I have come. And any accusation of rape would be grossly inaccurate.
While it might be a bit frightening or overwhelming, I'm rather happy you're having this introspection. It means that, for the first time, you're thinking openly about consent. That's a good thing, and a step in the right direction. Now if only you weren't here posting how troublesome that awareness is ...

There you go! There's the rub. "Oh shit, I could, potentially, be a rapist."
In order for that not to be true let's make sure the onus is 100% on the victim, and as much as possible let's go ahead and try to get the definitions of rape changed. Problem solved!
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

mb2612 wrote:I don't think womasing is inherently bad


What do you defining 'womanizing' as? I define it as objectifying women, and if you don't believe that's inherently bad, we need to have a talk...
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cathy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
mb2612 wrote:I don't think womasing is inherently bad

What do you defining 'womanizing' as? I define it as objectifying women, and if you don't believe that's inherently bad, we need to have a talk...

I think they mean "having lots of sex with lots of women" which could hypothetically not involve objectifying women.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:30 pm UTC

Cathy wrote:I think they mean "having lots of sex with lots of women" which could hypothetically not involve objectifying women.


That's just having lots of sex, though. :| Women do that too, but we don't call it "menizing". Instead, they get called sluts as if they're in the wrong, even without any objectification involved... sigh.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:40 pm UTC

mb2612 wrote:Is Bond being a womaniser an example of rape culture?
I don't know what precisely your understanding of "womaniser" is, so I'll just repeat myself since you apparently missed it: Bond is an example of rape culture because it reinforces the notion that it is ever okay to forcibly initiate sexual contact with someone who doesn't want it, even if they later decide they like it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:47 pm UTC

mb2612 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:It's also interesting that James Bond would be brought up as a *positive* example for men. Because speaking of rape culture, he plays right the hell into it. It's much harder to think of Bond movies that don't include some sort of positive-outcome rape scenario than to think of the ones that do. (Okay, maybe they start "liking" it before the actual intercourse part commences, but it still definitely promotes the notion that it's okay to forcibly initiate sexual contact with someone who resists because she's sure to change her mind in a little bit, once she realizes just how damnably sexy you are.)


Is Bond being a womaniser an example of rape culture?

I think it is, but as I don't think womasing is inherently bad, would that mean some aspects of rape culture are not bad in of themselves?

He does more than womanize, there are numerous example of "slap slap kiss" scenes where he aggressively physically comes on to the woman even after she makes clear she doesn't want to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuAz6DXUopw
In this scene she verbally tells him to piss off four times, physically fights him, and is struggling to hold him off all the way to the end. That's not womanizing, that's sexual assault. And the whole thing is played off like a lighthearted joke, and to cap off the insult, the writers have her unwillingly enjoy it too. Plus, Word of God has it that Galore is a lesbian, so this is rape of body, mind, and identity. That's a perfect example of one aspect of rape culture.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby sigsfried » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:07 pm UTC

Firstly I hadn't contributed earlier because there was a real life story I wanted to get the permission of both involved to describe here. Incidentally I am being careful to leave the bare minimum information on identifying information for obvious reasons.

Aaeriele wrote:
mb2612 wrote:I don't think womasing is inherently bad


What do you defining 'womanizing' as? I define it as objectifying women, and if you don't believe that's inherently bad, we need to have a talk...


Is all objectifying inherently bad. On the occasions that I get home from work to be met by my girlfriend wearing very sexy clothes who then does a strip tease or similar I think she would be very disappointed if she thought I was thinking about her in purely innocent terms. That does not mean it is always right, in fact it is nearly always wrong but I am not prepared to consider it always wrong.

Anyway the actual story I wanted to bring up is one that is a pretty clear cut example where rape culture is causing a problem. The very short version of the story is two people after having slept together the previous night had a talk about it decided there hadn't been consent and went together to the police station. The woman reported the rape, the man admitted it and said he would plead guilty. They were told to go away and stop wasting police time. However you feel about the case this cannot be right.

Now the details, he (I'll call him A and her B) was at a pub, it was a year since his father died and he was wearing his fathers war medals in memory of him. His girlfriend had left him only an hour before and he was drunk enough to only know the outline of the story. B turns up and according to her saw the medals and decided she wanted to spend the night with "the hero" A. She got them both a drink sat down etc. Part way through the drink she realised that the medals cannot be his (I think she said she noticed a date or some such) and decided she was going to torment him for being a fraud. Some time later

They go back to hers and after a few more drinks she starts "tormenting him" she is careful not to let him touch but undresses somewhat then tells him to leave. As he gets up to go, somewhat confused he decided to kiss her. The amount B has drunk means not only does she go along with this but ends up not being able to say no. They then ended up in bed together. Wake up the next day and start piecing it together. That was apparently the point they both decided it was rape.

I am still not personally convinced it was though, after all and in the end the story has ended reasonably happily. Because he was willing to admit it they have actually ended up friends, not close certainly not sexual, but friends. Even so he stills says he wishes the police had acted on it. A says he can't stand knowing he is a rapist and hasn't drunk another drop or had another relationship he says he can't take the risk.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

sigsfried wrote:Is all objectifying inherently bad. On the occasions that I get home from work to be met by my girlfriend wearing very sexy clothes who then does a strip tease or similar I think she would be very disappointed if she thought I was thinking about her in purely innocent terms. That does not mean it is always right, in fact it is nearly always wrong but I am not prepared to consider it always wrong.

I don't see how the situation you described is objectification...

"Sexual objectification refers to the practice of regarding or treating another person merely as an instrument (object) towards one's sexual pleasure" (wp)

Emphasis mine. The fact that she is already your girlfriend, and that you state "not purely innocent terms," makes it fairly clear that you are not treating her merely as an object, but as a person who also happens to be sexy, and the fact that you talk about her being disappointed implies that there is probably at least some desire on her part involved (not knowing her, I couldn't say for sure of course).


True objectification is bad - it doesn't go both ways, but instead is imposed by one person onto others.
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