Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Tue May 22, 2018 12:22 am UTC

orthogon wrote:Doesn't sound like they had grounds to arrest him. But the parole situation magnified the effect of the unnecessary arrest by orders of magnitude.

They had a complainant and a complaint. Doesn't have to be a good complaint, just a complaint. It could be argued that they should have used their own common sense but they don't have to.

He'll probably get a settlement out of restaurant, but when it comes right down to it I'm not sure what grounds he could use there either. The complainant doesn't have to be right, just has to meet the reasonable person test. ("Would a reasonable person have thought the bill was counterfeit?")
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 22, 2018 12:48 am UTC

The parole system always weirded me out. If you want someone to spend 2 years in prison, they should be sentenced to 2 years in prison, not sentenced to 6 years with a chance of parole at 2 as long as the prison guards don't hate them. If you want someone to spend 2 years in prison with the ability to extend as needed, either sentence to 2 years with 4 years of probation or actually charge them for a crime committed while incarcerated.

I can only imagine the racism involved in those parole hearings...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 22, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
orthogon wrote:Doesn't sound like they had grounds to arrest him. But the parole situation magnified the effect of the unnecessary arrest by orders of magnitude.

They had a complainant and a complaint. Doesn't have to be a good complaint, just a complaint. It could be argued that they should have used their own common sense but they don't have to.

He'll probably get a settlement out of restaurant, but when it comes right down to it I'm not sure what grounds he could use there either. The complainant doesn't have to be right, just has to meet the reasonable person test. ("Would a reasonable person have thought the bill was counterfeit?")


That's pretty much all the restaurant ought be responsible for. If, say, they got a false positive with the pen test, cool. They got a reason. The rest is on the justice system. The restaurateur didn't hold up justice for an obnoxiously long time, after all. In this particular case, responsibility for the delay seems to largely rest with the secret service.

I agree that the guy might not see any actual money from this, but all the same, I think the principle of speedy justice as a right still ought to apply here.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 22, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

IIRC the restaurant offered him $10k, but he turned it down. I think he thinks he will get a lot more, but I think it will mostly end in a settlement just to make the story go away, not because the restaurant was actually in the wrong.

Hmph. Im thinking back to 2009, when Obama's professor was arrested for breaking and entering into his own home, in the same city IIRC. It ended with a beer summit. I wonder how it wouldve played out today.

Society changes rapidly. It was only 14 years ago where a white man could sexually assault a black woman on live tv and the entire media would blame her, literally blaming it on what she was wearing. "Wardrobe malfunction"? Really?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby wumpus » Fri May 25, 2018 3:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Society changes rapidly. It was only 14 years ago where a white man could sexually assault a black woman on live tv and the entire media would blame her, literally blaming it on what she was wearing. "Wardrobe malfunction"? Really?


I'm pretty sure that was a scripted event, and unlikely a surprise to Ms. Jackson (who was a sufficiently "big name" for it to be unlikely to be a surprise). I also doubt that any performer on stage had all that much direct control over their wardrobe. You simply don't go "off the script" in a Superb Owl half-time performance (if you want unscripted entertainment at that time, I highly recommend "puppy bowl").

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri May 25, 2018 3:58 pm UTC

Uh, no. And the double standard in how Janet Jackson has had to suffer all of the consequences is proof enough of how fucked up and unbalanced this is.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 25, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

Wow, I had no idea that Janet got so much flack over that. I knew there was a disproportionate hullabaloo over it, but not that she was blamed for everything. (Not that I thought Justin was blamed either; I thought the wardrobe was blamed, hence "wardrobe malfunction").
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri May 25, 2018 4:38 pm UTC

Her career basically crashed after this, while he's still a very successful artist.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri May 25, 2018 5:38 pm UTC

the problem with that is that there were any negative consequences at all to such an inconsequential thing. Oh me yarm, a bare tit, the world will end, we have to ban live TV so this can never happen again!!
calling this "sexual assault" is absurd as well, and disparaging for every real victim of sexual assault.
it was clearly a choreographed movement of them both.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri May 25, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

It really wasn't. And even if it was staged, it was still a portrayal of sexual assault, and the aftermath is the victim, whether originally planned or not, was ostracized, ridiculed, and suffered massive financial setbacks.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 25, 2018 6:03 pm UTC

speising wrote:the problem with that is that there were any negative consequences at all to such an inconsequential thing. Oh me yarm, a bare tit, the world will end, we have to ban live TV so this can never happen again!!
calling this "sexual assault" is absurd as well, and disparaging for every real victim of sexual assault.
it was clearly a choreographed movement of them both.


A guy pulling down a girl's shirt is sexual assault. It's not rape, but it's sexual assault.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 25, 2018 6:51 pm UTC

speising wrote:
it was clearly a choreographed movement of them both.

You're an expert choreographer yourself, I take it, to be so sure of that?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri May 25, 2018 7:40 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:
it was clearly a choreographed movement of them both.

You're an expert choreographer yourself, I take it, to be so sure of that?


I'm no choreographer or detective. Swordsman, yes. Choreographer, no. She didn't react to his hand going there, and there's no way she didn't know it was there, but whether she expected the tear-off or not isn't clear from that. She reacted as soon as it happened, but she'd have noticed him tearing off more than he was meant to or tearing off clothing he wasn't meant to damage at all, either way, so again it's not clear.

Wiki says:
Jackson's publicist stated the performance ending was only supposed to reveal Jackson's red lace bra, though the lace undergarment was accidentally removed along with the outer layer.


This brings up the question: how easy is it to tear the cup off a bra?

If I'd designed and made that dress, I'd hope it would stand up to being caught on something while dancing energetically, and I'd expect any tears in it to be a lot messier than that ... unless I'd included velcro for the purpose of allowing someone to pull part of it away.

For it to take the bra with it by accident seems ... almost unbelievable, frankly. Who built that thing? "Possible failure states" not mean anything to them? They never heard of testing?

Also, are nipple shields normal wear under two layers of clothing, or under "just a lace bra" or not at all, for performers on stage?

Either way, the overall reaction to a couple of seconds of motion-blurred bare breast a few pixels high was ludicrous and for all the backlash to be on her and none of it to be on him is wrong.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri May 25, 2018 7:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
speising wrote:
it was clearly a choreographed movement of them both.

You're an expert choreographer yourself, I take it, to be so sure of that?

i'm not, but i've seen the scene.
i don't know about your aquaintances, but the women i know do not regularly wear detachable breast flaps or tape of their nipples, when ey do not expect tem to be used rsp. exposed.
also, what Saboeagle wrote. *maybe* the choreography didn't turn out as planed, but the groping definitively *was* planed. if this was a very intelligent or sensitive idea can certainly be questioned.

Zohar wrote:It really wasn't. And even if it was staged, it was still a portrayal of sexual assault, and the aftermath is the victim, whether originally planned or not, was ostracized, ridiculed, and suffered massive financial setbacks.

as i said, its absurd that this would produce this much backlash. and it was certainly directed at the wrong person, it was the choreographers fault.
but she wasn't a victim *until* she was ostracized etc.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri May 25, 2018 8:20 pm UTC

No one really complained about the groping. And having your breasts exposed to millions of people without your consent is also assault.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri May 25, 2018 8:24 pm UTC

only if it was done on purpose. do you have any indication that JJ didn't consent to it (not forgetting the convenient taping) *and* JT did it on purpose, instead of by accident as claimed?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 25, 2018 8:32 pm UTC

Only brought it up to show how quickly attitudes change. Pretend it isnt Janet in 2004. Pretend it is Katy Perry in 2018, and IDK, during a major concert Charlie Puth ripped off her shirt without her expecting it. Would we treat it the same as we did 14 years ago? We we be so quick to assume Katy was pulling a publicity stunt?

Not even a full generation later, but maybe being watched by a few of those conceived while their parents watched the wardrobe malfunction.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 25, 2018 9:55 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Wiki says:
Jackson's publicist stated the performance ending was only supposed to reveal Jackson's red lace bra, though the lace undergarment was accidentally removed along with the outer layer.

That seems to confirm that the grabbing of her breast and the removal of some clothing from it was a planned part of the performance, and it's only the complete exposure of her breast that was either an accident or wrongdoing on Justin's part.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri May 25, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:She didn't react to his hand going there, and there's no way she didn't know it was there, but whether she expected the tear-off or not isn't clear from that. She reacted as soon as it happened, but she'd have noticed him tearing off more than he was meant to or tearing off clothing he wasn't meant to damage at all, either way, so again it's not clear.


lmaoooo she's a veteran performer and a black woman on top of that. i assure you, she knows how to keep her composure, on stage, in front of literally millions of people, regardless of what unscripted breast grabbing a white man is doing to her. to use the fact that she didn't... what? break into the performance to look aghast? gasp? cry? freeze? cuss him out? slap timberlake's hand away? is so breathtakingly ignorant of the realities of both professional performers and black women that it's laughable.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat May 26, 2018 8:06 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The parole system always weirded me out. If you want someone to spend 2 years in prison, they should be sentenced to 2 years in prison, not sentenced to 6 years with a chance of parole at 2 as long as the prison guards don't hate them. If you want someone to spend 2 years in prison with the ability to extend as needed, either sentence to 2 years with 4 years of probation or actually charge them for a crime committed while incarcerated.


In a utilitarian justice system, there are three basic reasons for locking someone up: to protect society by containing disruptive individuals, to deter others from committing a crime, and to rehabilitate criminals. If sufficient time has been served to deter crime, and you can show that the individual has been rehabilitated, then you have no moral standing to continue to lock them up. In this case, some sort of parole system is necessary.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sat May 26, 2018 10:09 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:In a utilitarian justice system, there are three basic reasons for locking someone up: to protect society by containing disruptive individuals, to deter others from committing a crime, and to rehabilitate criminals. If sufficient time has been served to deter crime, and you can show that the individual has been rehabilitated, then you have no moral standing to continue to lock them up. In this case, some sort of parole system is necessary.

Surely if none of your three conditions for locking someone up have been met then they should be released unconditionally rather than paroled.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat May 26, 2018 10:35 pm UTC

You want the minimum restriction of rights necessary based on those conditions, but judging that is problematic. They may be sufficiently rehabilitated that there is no justification for locking them up, but there might still be conditions like counseling, drug testing, community service, etc. or whatever is necessary to reduce recidivism.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sat May 26, 2018 11:05 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:You want the minimum restriction of rights necessary based on those conditions, but judging that is problematic. They may be sufficiently rehabilitated that there is no justification for locking them up, but there might still be conditions like counseling, drug testing, community service, etc. or whatever is necessary to reduce recidivism.

In a 'utilitarian society' those should be available to everyone not just those who get locked up. That way you reduce offending not just reoffending.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat May 26, 2018 11:13 pm UTC

Available, but not required.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sat May 26, 2018 11:26 pm UTC

As CU says, if it's a requirement then let the sentencing judge pass it as a requirement. "2 years in jail then 2 years community service" or whatever.

(All rehabilitation should actually take place during the 2 years in jail ala the Nordic model; once you're free you're free.)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat May 26, 2018 11:42 pm UTC

I think both are just as bad; the entire US justice system is built on the idea of cruelty for the sake of deterrence. Equality in justice is a much more complicated problem, and in my opinion you should have actual professionals who study sociology and psychology that make those judgements, while the prisons themselves should be as close to the outside world as possible to make for the easiest transitions.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun May 27, 2018 12:44 am UTC

You are correct, Thesh.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Leovan » Sun May 27, 2018 3:57 am UTC

elasto wrote:As CU says, if it's a requirement then let the sentencing judge pass it as a requirement. "2 years in jail then 2 years community service" or whatever.

The point of the parole system is that the judge thinks that for your case a criminal usually requires six years to rehabilitate and it's best to keep you of the street while doing so. Then you happen to be one of the people who turn their life around quickly and behave well. So they let you back into society early but also want to continue some of the treatment and make sure that their decision to let you go early wasn't wrong, so nobody gets hurt. They can't predict how effective the treatment will be on any one prisoner ahead of time. It accounts for the unpredictability of human nature.
It also causes judges to err on the side of longer sentences because if prison is effective they let you out early and if it's not then the longer you stay in the better. Well, better would be to change the treatment, but no parole wouldn't help that either.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun May 27, 2018 11:16 am UTC

Leovan wrote:The point of the parole system is that the judge thinks that for your case a criminal usually requires six years to rehabilitate

That's nonsensical. If someone needs six years to rehabilitate they might as well need sixty.

Sentences that long are never about rehabilitation, they are about retribution and deterrence (and it's proven that sentence length makes no difference to a person deciding to commit a crime; it's all about the perceived chances of getting caught.)

No, a year seems about the maximum needed for rehabilitation assuming you have a decent system where the prisoner is taught a trade, given decent housing and education on leaving prison etc.

The parole system also makes no sense as part of a private prison system where the prison makes more money the longer the prisoner is held. Talk about a conflict of interest!

A person will already get sent back to jail with a stiffer sentence if caught doing more crimes following release, there's no need for a probationary period, it just results in injustices as per the homeless guy.

No, sentences should be much shorter with far more emphasis on rehabilitation, thereby removing any need for parole.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Sun May 27, 2018 2:43 pm UTC

You mean like the Norwegian system?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun May 27, 2018 3:08 pm UTC

Norway definitely comes close. They incarcerate at around a tenth of the rate of the US and about a fifth of inmates reoffend vs around three-fifths in the US.

The rehabilitation approach is much more humane and saves an enormous amount of money to boot.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 27, 2018 3:45 pm UTC

It's not the prison system, it's a combination of the insufficient welfare system and the American Rule civil courts. Most of those US re-offenders are unable to turn their life around because they can't get a decent job to support themselves. Even McDonald's will turn away ex-cons. Why? Because if an ex-con gets into an altercation, no matter who was at fault, that's a civil lawsuit. And even if the McDonald's won, the American Rule means that the plaintiff doesn't need to pay McDonald's legal fees. That's also why every time you read a story about a convenience store clerk stopping a robbery, the clerk gets fired.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun May 27, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

Definitely true. Takes a village to raise a child and takes a society to reform a con.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sun May 27, 2018 4:41 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Definitely true. Takes a village to raise a child and takes a society to reform a con.

Or just purge evidence that he was a convicted felon, so that nobody knows.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Sun May 27, 2018 4:48 pm UTC

In other words, nobody is ever rehabilitated.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon May 28, 2018 4:18 pm UTC

speising wrote:only if it was done on purpose. do you have any indication that JJ didn't consent to it (not forgetting the convenient taping) *and* JT did it on purpose, instead of by accident as claimed?

We have plenty of evidence Janet Jackson didn't consent and zero evidence that she did. Intent is not a prerequisite for sexual assault.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon May 28, 2018 4:32 pm UTC

Are we ignoring her official public stance that pulling off part of her clothing was a planned part of the act, and just more than planned for came off?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Mon May 28, 2018 11:07 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Are we ignoring her official public stance that pulling off part of her clothing was a planned part of the act, and just more than planned for came off?

Also immaterial. If I consent to some particular sex act, it doesn't mean I consent to all of them. Additionally, consent can be withdrawn at any time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue May 29, 2018 1:16 am UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Are we ignoring her official public stance that pulling off part of her clothing was a planned part of the act, and just more than planned for came off?

Also immaterial. If I consent to some particular sex act, it doesn't mean I consent to all of them. Additionally, consent can be withdrawn at any time.


How is that immaterial? If the statement is true than it literally was a “malfunction” and not something intentionally done. I’m pretty sure sexual assault requires intent.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:We have plenty of evidence Janet Jackson didn't consent and zero evidence that she did.


We have statements from Jackson herself, and from her publicist, that explicitly confirm that opening the outer garment was a planned part of the act. We have the fact that she was wearing an outfit designed to be pulled off; which is clear in the video of the incident.

The only part that was not planned was her bra coming open as well - which everyone involved including her has acknowledge was an accident.

In short, there is no evidence or testimony from anyone that suggests that anybody did anything - deliberately or otherwise - that was not agreed upon in advance.

eran_rathan wrote:Also immaterial.


When the question is literally whether or not pulling open her outfit was planned, and she states that it was in fact planned, that's not immaterial.

If I consent to some particular sex act, it doesn't mean I consent to all of them. Additionally, consent can be withdrawn at any time.


We aren't talking about a sex act, we're talking about a dance routine that specifically called for her dance partner to pull off part of her costume. More came off than expected, and everyone involved has agreed that that was an accident. You can believe otherwise if you like; but there is no evidence to support that.


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