Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

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Fire Brns
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Socially isolated.
I have to find it but I remember encountering a study which found people generally joined radical organizations to make friends and have a sense of camaraderie.

gmalivuk wrote:"Someone" blames pretty much anyone pre-emptively every time there's an unfortunate event. But shockingly enough, past success or failure of armchair speculations has nothing to do with the actual likelihood that any particular thing happened, so previous wrong guesses have no bearing on "the odds" here.
Interestingly enough more often than not socialists have tried to stage acts of terror for the sole purpose of blaming right wing groups. Libertarians do have their-selves some terrorists but the tea party has become a republican co-opt at this point. Someone posted a link in gun control and I can't find it now but there is at least one example of this in the 100+ examples.
Edit: Not that there are any groups who would have reason to do it being overly vocal about "hey those other guys did it".
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:49 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Interestingly enough more often than not socialists have tried to stage acts of terror for the sole purpose of blaming right wing groups.

Do you have a citation for that?
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:25 pm UTC

I was looking around for stuff about socialists framing right-wing groups and instead I found this publication from West Point. It looks at far-right violence, so it isn't really what Fire Brns was talking about. But it might be interesting anyway and I gave up looking around. I mean... it's from West Point so they're probably a good authority on this sort of thing, right?

"Challengers from the Sidelines: Understanding America’s Violent Far-Right"
Abstract from the link:
Spoiler:
In the last few years, and especially since 2007, there has been a dramatic rise in the number of attacks and violent plots originating from individuals and groups who self-identify with the far-right of American politics. These incidents cause many to wonder whether these are isolated attacks, an increasing trend, part of increasing societal violence, or attributable to some other condition. To date, however, there has been limited systematic documentation and analysis of incidents of American domestic violence.

This study provides a conceptual foundation for understanding different far-right groups and then presents the empirical analysis of violent incidents to identify those perpetrating attacks and their associated trends. Through a comprehensive look at the data, this study addresses three core questions:

(1) What are the main current characteristics of the violence produced by the far right?

(2) What type of far-right groups are more prone than others to engage in violence? How are characteristics of particular far-right groups correlated with their tendency to engage in violence?

(3) What are the social and political factors associated with the level of far-right violence? Are there political or social conditions that foster or discourage violence?

It is important to note that this study concentrates on those individuals and groups who have actually perpetuated violence and is not a comprehensive analysis of the political causes with which some far-right extremists identify. While the ability to hold and appropriately articulate diverse political views is an American strength, extremists committing acts of violence in the name of those causes undermine the freedoms that they purport to espouse.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:39 pm UTC

Wednesday wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:Interestingly enough more often than not socialists have tried to stage acts of terror for the sole purpose of blaming right wing groups.

Do you have a citation for that?

I'm looking for the link right now. broken_escalator's link is interesting. But for example the Black Hand if I remember right killed Archduke Ferdinand with the intent of of blaming another party to validate the creation of a greater Serbia.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:44 pm UTC

If the only "more often than not" example you can come up with is nearly a hundred years old, you may be in trouble.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:56 pm UTC

I just used the Archduke Ferdinand example because it was the most well know.
There are a few examples from the 60's and 70's as well and then a few within the last decade in the link I'm trying to find.
Not that I'm trying to imply it's all leftists, there are a number right wing extremists.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby firechicago » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:03 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:But for example the Black Hand if I remember right killed Archduke Ferdinand with the intent of of blaming another party to validate the creation of a greater Serbia.

The killing of Franz Ferdinand wasn't supposed to be a false flag operation. There was never any intention to blame anyone other than Bosnian nationalists acting in concert with Serbian intelligence, i.e. the exact people who actually carried it out.

Also, the Black Hand wasn't socialist. They were ethnic nationalists. If anything, that made them anti-socialist. So your only example of a socialist false flag operation is neither socialist, nor a false flag operation.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

Just want to point out that Godwin's were both hyper-ethnic nationalist and socialist. Socialism and racism are mutually exclusive.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Derek » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:24 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Just want to point out that Godwin's were both hyper-ethnic nationalist and socialist. Socialism and racism are mutually exclusive.

I feel like there is at least one typo in here (and a word filter? for further confusion); I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

I'm guessing it's a filter referring to a certain political group in Germany in the first half of the 20th century and Godwin's law.

Anyway, the Nazis were not really socialist in any meaningful way (at least not once they achieved power) and they only kept using the term in order to help maintain the support of the working classes.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Derek » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:I'm guessing it's a filter referring to a certain political group in Germany in the first half of the 20th century and Godwin's law.

That much I guessed. But then the first sentence contradicts the second, hence why I think he has a typo, and I'm not sure which sentence was what he meant.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:I'm guessing it's a filter referring to a certain political group in Germany in the first half of the 20th century and Godwin's law.

That much I guessed. But then the first sentence contradicts the second, hence why I think he has a typo, and I'm not sure which sentence was what he meant.


I'm assuming he meant:
Just want to point out that Godwin's were both hyper-ethnic nationalist and socialist. Socialism and racism are not mutually exclusive.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Belial » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

Also, that's not a wordfilter, corruptuser is just odd.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby faranim » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:29 pm UTC

The FBI is releasing / just released pictures of 2 suspects on live TV (CNN).

http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-inve ... ton/photos

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:30 pm UTC

And uses apostrophe's for plural's, apparently.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:44 pm UTC

Didn't Hitler attempt a false flag operation to create an excuse to invade Poland? If I remember correctly he had his own soldiers, dressed in Polish uniforms, cross the border into Germany and cause trouble. It didn't fool anyone for even a second, but it's an attempted false-flag operation by a group that has socialist in the name.

Closest I can get to "socialists perform false flag operations more often than not".

Incidentally while I'm writing this, hundreds of millions of socialists refrained from carrying out false flag operations. So the 'than not' side is looking pretty bad.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Derek » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:05 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Didn't Hitler attempt a false flag operation to create an excuse to invade Poland? If I remember correctly he had his own soldiers, dressed in Polish uniforms, cross the border into Germany and cause trouble. It didn't fool anyone for even a second, but it's an attempted false-flag operation by a group that has socialist in the name.

Yes

Incidentally while I'm writing this, hundreds of millions of socialists refrained from carrying out false flag operations. So the 'than not' side is looking pretty bad.

He clearly meant "more often than libertarians". When reading someone else's post, don't assume that the most ridiculous possible interpretation is the one intended.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:18 am UTC

False flag operations do happen. However, they tend to be the exception, not the rule, and given that nobody has taken credit yet, correctly or not, it wouldn't seem likely to be one here. After all, it isn't really a false flag op unless you're blaming someone.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby brenok » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:21 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Didn't Hitler attempt a false flag operation to create an excuse to invade Poland? If I remember correctly he had his own soldiers, dressed in Polish uniforms, cross the border into Germany and cause trouble. It didn't fool anyone for even a second, but it's an attempted false-flag operation by a group that has socialist in the name.

Closest I can get to "socialists perform false flag operations more often than not".


I was thinking more about the Reichstag fire that put him on power in the first place.

You could than theorise that National Socialists perform false flag operations more often than not.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:13 am UTC

I'm surprised nobody cited the explosion of the USS Maine that started the Spanish US war, or the less obvious pearl harbor/ Ft. Sumter. The last two aren't true in that there's no evidence for it, but it depicts what a good false flag operation can accomplish.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Derek » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:13 am UTC

sardia wrote:I'm surprised nobody cited the explosion of the USS Maine that started the Spanish US war, or the less obvious pearl harbor/ Ft. Sumter. The last two aren't true in that there's no evidence for it, but it depicts what a good false flag operation can accomplish.

The Maine was probably an accident, and Pearl Harbor and Fort Sumter were actual enemy action. They certainly show how an event can inspire a nation, for good or ill, but they're not false flag operations.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:14 am UTC

The Black Hand couldn't make a false flag claim because everyone knew it was them because of how many conspirators were caught almost immediately. Ferdinand was still a bad example, I can't find my stupid textbook but I'm fairly certain there was a false flag attack in 1914.

I didn't intend to use the term socialist, I used the term leftists in a later post which is a better term as it is a far greater group as are right-ists. Example: Libertarians have little in common with fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics but both would be considered right wing.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:36 am UTC

Regardless of what you want to call it, we're still waiting on a single example, I believe.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:45 am UTC

I'm digging for it. But it's been established that false flag attacks do occur.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Steax » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:43 am UTC

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby selfassembled » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:56 am UTC

The scanners indicate that suspect with the white cap is confirmed and...I think still doing his thing while the cops try to figure out a way in.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Angua » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:50 am UTC

Sounds like one suspect has been killed while the police tried to capture him, and the other (the one with the white baseball cap) is still on the run.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22212946
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:28 am UTC

Fire Brns wrote:I'm digging for it. But it's been established that false flag attacks do occur.


I don't think anyone's saying they don't occur (or at least, not that there's any particular reason why the far left would be less likely to perform them than the right). The bit that's being disputed is the "more often than not" which seeing as not a single example has been given so far seems a pretty justified quibble.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Hawknc » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:40 am UTC

Angua wrote:Sounds like one suspect has been killed while the police tried to capture him, and the other (the one with the white baseball cap) is still on the run.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22212946

This was the most fascinating - and worrying - thing to follow on Twitter. It's remarkable how long the traditional media took to register that there was a Hollywood-style car chase and gun battle (with explosions! Apparently this was a Michael Bay chase scene) raging in the streets of Boston.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:00 am UTC

I'm listening to the Boston emt/fire/police scanner. They sound like they're in pursuit in Watertown, about two miles from where Belial and I live. We have some friends that live nearby. I'm at least only a bit scared, the pursuit is far enough away and moving further out from our place, but closer to our friends. I may be editing this post as I hear things with a play by play, what I'm hearing is by no means absolutely connected to the specific bombing pursuit, but is what I'm hearing from cops on the scanners in real time, so, grain of salt. If I hear something that's later shown to be unrelated I'll add strikethroughs.
Spoiler:
As of 6:16, they're down near Beacon Park, further away from my friends, yay. They just called all units into charles circle, a suspect was just taken into custody. Fresh blood was mentioned in the area.

6:28, sounds like they arrested a dude,three dudes he was they were in a taxi?

6:35, appears those dudes were not who they were looking for, they're down near a shopping mall. Apparently the suspect is targeting Victoria's Secret and Gamestop :p News crews appear to be blocking cops' access by accident.

6:38, 5 tactical teams have been deployed, they're going door to door clearing everyone in the immediate area out. They're telling everyone involved in the search not to wear their bright, shiny and fluorescent orange "HELLO YES THIS IS POLICE" jackets. Because that wasn't obvious.

7:01, pipe bomb just went off, multiple reports of explosive devices, some are being declared non-threatening
Last edited by Wednesday on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:05 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby rath358 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:39 am UTC

https://twitter.com/JpDeathBlade
That guy appears to be posting live updates, probably from a police scanner. He is the guy from reddit; he migrated after reddit went down

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:41 am UTC

Awesome, thanks. I'm also listening to the scanners, as are....84,069 people, according to the feed I'm using. Damn.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:47 am UTC

All universities are shut down, the MBTA is closed, and there's a travel ban (advisory?) in effect. Watertown is just east of us!
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:49 am UTC

I know D: Via http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-surviving-boston-bomb-suspect-identified-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-19-cambridge-mass

WASHINGTON (AP) — AP: Surviving Boston bomb suspect identified as Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, 19, of Cambridge, Mass.

Keep in mind that this is *probably* wrong.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Felstaff » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:06 am UTC

Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, awarded a 2011 Cambridge City scholarship, and awarded the Cambridge Rindge and Latin School Greater Boston League Winter All Stars 2011 for wrestling, as well as the Student Athlete of the Month February 2011 (for wrestling). This and this could be him (notice someone else has found this page and commented already), and this is clearly a fake Twitter. Quite the eloquent chap, as well as a wrestler and suspected terrorist bomber.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Red Hal » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:13 am UTC

Scanner update, expect a "detonation" in the Charlestown area. They keep mentioning School Street.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Red Hal » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:15 am UTC

Controlled explosion, Charlesgate.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:15 am UTC

Yep, controlled detonation just happened.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby keozen » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:26 am UTC

Police scanner feeds keep going down due to traffic, this guy is re-streaming if you need:
http://www.twitch.tv/retroemu/

Also, stay safe Wednesday/Belial. Hope you're ok.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Red Hal » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:29 am UTC

Lost Greatest Silent Baby X Y Z. "There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain..."


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