Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:32 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The exclusionary rule is very vicious. By the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree", if they start an investigation based off of what they learned in the interview... the full results of that investigation will have to be tossed out if the pre-Miranda interview is deemed illegal.

Really, the prosecution is only hurting themselves by holding back the Miranda reading.

I believe fruit of the poisonous tree doesn't apply to Miranda warnings, see U.S. v. Patane.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:28 am UTC

Hurrah, Wikipedia links!!

http://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/c ... ontext=ilj

There is a jurisdictional split on the relatively narrow issue of whether the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine applies to Miranda violations of the invocation of the right to counsel... Compare United States v. Downing, 665 F.2d 404 (1st Cir. 1981) (applying the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine) with Wilson v. Zant, 249 Ga. 373, 290 S.E.2d 442, cert. denied, 459 U.S. 1092 (1982) (declining to apply the poisonous tree doctrine)


This looks complicated. Courts have ruled both ways apparently.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:34 am UTC

It appears that article (which is somewhat older than the Patane decision) is specifically about what happens if a suspect invokes her right to counsel and then the police ignore it. US v. Patane is just about statements that are obtained without giving the warning, which is I assume what you were asking about before.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:27 am UTC

Have you guys had enough of conspiracy theorys?

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:05 am UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:Have you guys had enough of conspiracy theorys?

The black in the lettering...*shudders*

You'd think the "in the know" people would have better photo editing programs than ms paint.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:55 am UTC

Sonoma-Williams has stopped selling pressure cookers in Mass. Gesture of respect, I suppose. Still, it seems a wee bit pointless. Nobody's blaming the existence of the pressure cooker for this.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:32 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:Have you guys had enough of conspiracy theorys?


That one's really stupid though, they've got completely different shaped brows.

I saw another one claiming that the straps seen tied around legs with wounds were there to hold prosthetics one because why else would someone ever tie something tightly around a limb with a major bleed? :roll:
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Xeio » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:You'd think the "in the know" people would have better photo editing programs than ms paint.
Well the key is they only think they're in the know. So it makes perfect sense they use MS Paint. If they had any level of expertise they'd probably use something else. :P

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Роберт » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:49 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Sonoma-Williams has stopped selling pressure cookers in Mass. Gesture of respect, I suppose. Still, it seems a wee bit pointless. Nobody's blaming the existence of the pressure cooker for this.

I've only ever heard this suggested by pro-gunners as a satire on anti-gunners... this really happened? Is it meant as a pro-gun political statement?
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:00 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Sonoma-Williams has stopped selling pressure cookers in Mass. Gesture of respect, I suppose. Still, it seems a wee bit pointless. Nobody's blaming the existence of the pressure cooker for this.

I've only ever heard this suggested by pro-gunners as a satire on anti-gunners... this really happened? Is it meant as a pro-gun political statement?


Well, it's being reported as happening...I'm not in Mass, so can't say from personal experience. I don't think it was intended as commentary about guns at all...certainly, I haven't seen a reference from the company saying such, and I can't think of a plausible chain of causality offhand.

Company says it's a gesture of respect...and while I believe them, I admit it strikes me as a bit odd. Is anyone who lost someone in the bombing going to feel better because the company stopped selling pressure cookers there for a bit?

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Enokh » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:14 pm UTC

I would think it more moving if they kept selling them and diverted all profits to some sort of charity related to the event.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

Seems reasonable. One of the most heartwarming things about these tragic events is the outpouring of people willing to help out those who were hurt. I certainly have a lot of respect for all the organizations and people(too many to list) who have already tried to help.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Роберт » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:08 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:I would think it more moving if they kept selling them and diverted all profits to some sort of charity related to the event.

"Buy a pressure cooker and the profits will go to help the victims of the Boston Marathon bombing!"

Yeah, that seems to be in poor taste.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:32 pm UTC

Why punish law abiding citizens who happen to now want a pressure cooker for cooking? I know all kinds of people who were unnecessarily delayed for things in the aftermath of some national drama.

Best way to give the finger to terrorists anyway is to continue on with life and show them that they didn't really accomplish anything.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:41 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Enokh wrote:I would think it more moving if they kept selling them and diverted all profits to some sort of charity related to the event.

"Buy a pressure cooker and the profits will go to help the victims of the Boston Marathon bombing!"

Yeah, that seems to be in poor taste.


I think all marketing that takes advantage of tragedies is in poor taste.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Why punish law abiding citizens who happen to now want a pressure cooker for cooking? I know all kinds of people who were unnecessarily delayed for things in the aftermath of some national drama.

Best way to give the finger to terrorists anyway is to continue on with life and show them that they didn't really accomplish anything.

That's not always the best advice. For example, when 9/11 happened, Bush gave the same advice when what the public should have done was pay more attention to foreign affairs. Leaving foreign policy to those who care the most about warps our worldview and doesn't give us the most bang for our geopolitical buck.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:53 pm UTC

I'm not saying ignore foreign affairs. I was saying don't walk on eggshells just because bad men want to give you a bad day.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Enokh » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:29 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Enokh wrote:I would think it more moving if they kept selling them and diverted all profits to some sort of charity related to the event.

"Buy a pressure cooker and the profits will go to help the victims of the Boston Marathon bombing!"

Yeah, that seems to be in poor taste.


While that's a rather bad way to announce you're donating to a charity, taking pressure cookers off the shelves is an attempt to gain profit through recognition. Leaving them on the shelves and donating (some of) your profit to those injured is an attempt to gain profit through recognition that also helps people.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby omgryebread » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:18 pm UTC

My guess is that this was a well meaning but misguided attempt to be sensitive. It was apparently made by local managers and not corporate.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby LaserGuy » Wed May 01, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Three more people were apparently just arrested in connection with the bombings.

[edit]NBC is suggesting that they may be some of one of the bomber's roommates who were removing items from his dorm, and the charges will likely be obstruction of justice.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Arrian » Wed May 01, 2013 8:08 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Three more people were apparently just arrested in connection with the bombings.

[edit]NBC is suggesting that they may be some of one of the bomber's roommates who were removing items from his dorm, and the charges will likely be obstruction of justice.


According to Popehat, they were three of Dzhokar's buddies who took a backpack with emptied fireworks and a laptop out of his dorm room and then threw it out. None of them are Dzhokar's roomate, apparently they took the laptop along with the backpack in order to keep the roomate from thinking they were doing anything shady, just borrowing some class related stuff or something like that.

Popehat wrote:The first complaint charges Kadybayev and Tazhayakov with a conspiracy to violate federal law in violation of Title 18, United States Code, section 371 — the generic federal conspiracy statute. The object of the conspiracy — the federal law the defendants are alleged to have conspired to violate — is destruction of evidence in a federal investigation in violation of Title 18, United States Code, section 1519.

The second complaint charges Phillipos with making a false statement to the government in violation of Title 18, United States Code, section 1001.


The court documents are linked at the site, check out affidavit in support of the complaint for the clearest story. It looks like some college kids tried to help a buddy out, and they are going to catch hell for it. None of what I read implied that they had anything to do with the actual rampages, they just threw out some fireworks.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby folkhero » Wed May 01, 2013 11:27 pm UTC

Arrian wrote: It looks like some college kids tried to help a buddy out, and they are going to catch hell for it. None of what I read implied that they had anything to do with the actual rampages, they just threw out some fireworks.

Some adults determined that their friend was likely a mass murderer. Their reaction was to try to destroy evidence relevant to the crime. Of course they are going to catch hell for it, that's exactly the kind of thing that people should catch hell for.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Роберт » Thu May 02, 2013 3:15 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Arrian wrote: It looks like some college kids tried to help a buddy out, and they are going to catch hell for it. None of what I read implied that they had anything to do with the actual rampages, they just threw out some fireworks.

Some adults determined that their friend was likely a mass murderer. Their reaction was to try to destroy evidence relevant to the crime. Of course they are going to catch hell for it, that's exactly the kind of thing that people should catch hell for.

Yeah, I don't really have sympathy for people trying to cover up evidence of that type of crime.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Bad Hair Man » Fri May 03, 2013 3:28 pm UTC

Just in case I'm not the only one who was wondering, I looked up what the difference between "obstruction of justice" and "accessory after the fact" is.

www.uscis.gov wrote: The crime of “accessory after the fact” codified at 18 U.S.C. § 3 (1994) provides that “[w]hoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact.” The elements necessary to sustain a conviction under 18 U.S.C. § 3 for the crime of accessory after the fact include: the principal’s commission of a felony offense, the defendant’s kno wledge of that act, the defendant’s extension of some form of relief or assistance, which was accorded for one of a variety of purposes, including to hinder or prevent the offender’s apprehension, trial, or punishment. 8 /

In United States v. Aguilar , supra , the Supreme Court made clear that to constitute obstruction of justice, there must be evidence that the defendant acted with knowledge that a designated proceeding was pending. As majority recognizes, “‘The action taken by the accused must be with an intent to influence judicial or grand jury proceedings; it is not enough that there be an intent to influence some ancillary proceeding . . . .’” Matter of Espinoza , supra , at 5 (quoting United States v. Aguilar , supra , at 598); see also Haili v. United States , 260 F.2d 744, 746 (9th Cir. 1958) (holding that the statute penalizes conduct designed to interfere with the process of arriving at an appropriate judgment in a pending case and which would disturb the ordinary and proper functions of the court).

In other words, to commit an offense that amounts to obstruction of justice, it is not enough that one who conceals or harbors or gives comfort to the principal perpetrator does so with the intent of protecting him from apprehension. What is critical is whether the criminal act is performed by the defendant with knowledge that his conduct will affect certain ongoing proceedings and have the natural and probable effect of interfering with the due administration of justice. United States v. Aguilar , supra , at 598-99. A conviction for accessory after the fact, like a conviction for misprision does not require a showing that any proceedings are pending or that the defendant was aware of such pending proceedings and acted to frustrate them. Id. Rather, a conviction for accessory after the fact can be sustained on a showing that the defendant concealed the crime, or sheltered the principal offender, or impeded the offender’s apprehension.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the short version is that an "accessory after the fact" is someone who tries to help someone else get away with a crime. "Obstruction of justice" is when someone tries to help someone else get away with a crime in a way that knowingly interferes with a judicial or grand jury proceeding.

A somewhat subtle distinction, but that would make obstruction of justice the more serious offence of the two.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Alexius » Fri May 03, 2013 10:22 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Arrian wrote: It looks like some college kids tried to help a buddy out, and they are going to catch hell for it. None of what I read implied that they had anything to do with the actual rampages, they just threw out some fireworks.

Some adults determined that their friend was likely a mass murderer. Their reaction was to try to destroy evidence relevant to the crime. Of course they are going to catch hell for it, that's exactly the kind of thing that people should catch hell for.

What I imagine might have happened is that they bought these fireworks for an entirely innocent reason, or at least Tsarnaev persuaded them to buy them for him and they thought he wanted them for an innocent reason. The thing is, fireworks are illegal in Massachusetts- they would have had to go to New Hampshire to get them. Doing so, while fairly commonplace, is against the law.

Then the bombing happens, and one of them finds the empty firework casings and puts two and two together to realise "oh crap, my minor breach of a widely-ignored law just got people killed, I'm in trouble now". Their reaction was to panic and try to hide the evidence- to protect themselves, not to protect Tsarnaev.

But then, I often look for a more charitable explanation of events...

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat May 04, 2013 1:22 am UTC

Well, given that we have Tsarnaev recorded on video buying a large quantity of fireworks in NH himself, he apparently didn't go to great lengths to hide it. And yeah, it's a pretty minor offense. Odds are good he just bought all the stuff himself, without worrying about these guys.

Regardless of how you look at it, these guys made a pretty poor decision when they opted to hide the stuff.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Wednesday » Sat May 04, 2013 1:43 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Well, given that we have Tsarnaev recorded on video buying a large quantity of fireworks in NH himself

Uh? Where is this, who said we have it, and citation please?
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat May 04, 2013 3:46 am UTC

I believe the Phantom Fireworks purchase was already linked...but here's another story with some additional juicy details.

Frankly, fireworks aren't really the kind of thing that's suspicious to buy, normally. Doesn't matter if your state doesn't allow them...factory sized fireworks emporiums tend to spring up just over the state boundaries from places where fireworks are restricted.


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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby addams » Sat May 11, 2013 2:27 am UTC


Thank you.
What happened to his remains zigged and zagged through my mind.

Yes. The question, "What is Wrong with our people?" also crossed my mind.

There is nothing more Wrong with our people than with other people's people.
When A Mob is Formed it is Not the collective Good.

The TV and The Internet allow Mobs to form Quickly.
It is a Good Thing that our Police stood guard over the remains.

The Mob could have done things the individuals would have been ashamed of.

I think it is Nice that a Christian Woman wanted to care for the body of another Woman's Son.
Christians are not all bad nor all good. They are human.

I have become numb to The News.
I think The Americans did it.

Not All the Americans did it. Some.
Why? Well; It seems Power and Money are Highly Motivating.
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:18 pm UTC

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Not even sporange.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:08 am UTC

addams wrote:

Thank you.
What happened to his remains zigged and zagged through my mind.

Yes. The question, "What is Wrong with our people?" also crossed my mind.


I have to admit, as a Bostonian I was disappointed that nobody in the state would consent to bury the body. I mean, seriously? We buried Lee Harvey Oswald (as a country). I mean, it's just common decency. Yeah yeah I know we hate him, but just bury him.


TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:DoJ will seek the death penalty



Another thing to be disappointed about. I suppose I've seen it coming. How could they possibly not? If you're ever going to use the Federal Death Penalty, now's the time.

It's ironic though. Out of everywhere polled in the country, only Massachusetts polled as opposed to the death penalty for Tsarnaev. I'd try to find the source for it, but anything mentioning "Tsarnaev death penalty" is currently inundated by current news.

As a resident, I require him removed from the public to prevent further harm, and punished.

Condition 1 has been met. I don't know how to fulfill condition 2 if he's dead.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:29 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:As a resident, I require him removed from the public to prevent further harm, and punished.

Condition 1 has been met. I don't know how to fulfill condition 2 if he's dead.


Usually death is considered the ultimate punishment. Usually incarceration is also considered punishment, unless you are thinking along the lines of torture?

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby addams » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:40 am UTC

yes.
It might seem like 'common decency' to you.
I know, during Wars, Decency becomes Uncommon.

The Bombing at the Boston Marathon is Finished, long ago.
Has Boston healed?

From what I understand, cities seem to have personalities.
An entire city can heal.

I was told a Fairy Tale, one time, about a city named Dresden.
It is a city in Eastern Germany.

The city was Fire Bombed.
https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8
I don't know why.
I don't know how.
It does not matter to the Fairy Tale.

In the Story, it took years and years for the city to heal.
Both the people and their buildings healed, slowly.
https://www.google.com/search?q=beautif ... 92&bih=343

Some of those Stories are poignant and sweet.
That city took a long time to heal.

It had large wounds.


oh.
Did I wander Off Topic?
As long as I am Off Topic;
Look at this!
http://9bytz.com/dresden-music-wall/
Edit:
It is difficult for me to make the image links behave.
There are so many sensationalist photos.
I am not attempting to shock.

The city was wounded.
The city healed.

Has Boston healed?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Paul in Saudi » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:29 am UTC

I am opposed to the death penalty. On the other hand, I lack the courage of my convictions. Some people really get my dander up and I am willing to pull the switch on them.

But not on this guy.

Sure, he killed a bunch of people and injured many more, but still he ought not to be put to sleep. That is what people like him want. We ought to deny him martyrdom. In their internal communications, it is clear what terrorists fear is rotting away in a cell for decades.

That seems like a better idea.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby addams » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:52 am UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:I am opposed to the death penalty. On the other hand, I lack the courage of my convictions. Some people really get my dander up and I am willing to pull the switch on them.

But not on this guy.

Sure, he killed a bunch of people and injured many more, but still he ought not to be put to sleep. That is what people like him want. We ought to deny him martyrdom. In their internal communications, it is clear what terrorists fear is rotting away in a cell for decades.

That seems like a better idea.

ech. You and I might agree to the same action;
For opposite reasons.

Capital Punishment is a difficult, complex issue.
It seems easy.

I lived with Capital Punishment easily for a very long time.
When I was a child, adults said, "Kill them all; Let God sort it out."

And; They meant it.
No one was spared.

A Justice System is for Justice.
That is another long and convoluted subject.

I was told another Fariy Tale.
Spoiler:
In this Fairy Tale there are Five Special Children.

They are Spiritual Beings that take on Human Form.
They are very long lived. They live ten thousand years.

It was time for the Golden Children to come into The World.
Justice was excited. He knew The World needed him.

He only lived two years.
In the story there were people that did not want Justice
to walk among The People. They found Justice and killed him.

That story explains our relationship to Justice.
It is a little like a Christian's relationship to Jesus.

We live with a vague memory of Justice.
We live with the hope of Justice to come.
We must serve Justice in the absence of Justice.

We live with the idea of Justice.
We live in a world that has very darn little evidence of Justice.

See? It is a lot like Jesus.
Christians live with a vague memory and difficult to read stories of Jesus.
Christians live with the hope of Jesus to come.
Christians must serve Jesus in the absence of Jesus.

Some have bread that they say is flesh.
It's not. I know from flesh.

It's not flesh.
It's bread.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:48 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Usually death is considered the ultimate punishment. Usually incarceration is also considered punishment, unless you are thinking along the lines of torture?



True, but regardless of the "consideration" it's not very effective.

Punishment serves the purpose of making an individual pay for their actions and, if possible, have them repent and reform.

I'm not sure how any of this is accomplished if we simply kill him. He's dead. That's useless. Sure, revenge has been taken. But he's no longer a threat to anyone. And if we kill him nothing is learned or impacted (at least here).

And, in my opinion, it's irrespective of whether you're religious or not. Athiest? If he dies nothing happens but the fact that he's dead. No payment for his action or chance of repenting/reforming. If you're religious, you may believe he has some Divine Retribution coming his way. But in that case, Divine Retribution has all eternity. It can wait a few years for him to die.


And in general I think it's just morally wrong.


______

I do have to wonder if he 'truly' believes in what we can safely assume his brother believed in (martyrdom and etc.) or if he's simply an idiot kid who got sucked into something big and still isn't quite right. I suppose we'll have to see.

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Diadem
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:34 am UTC

I thought Massachusetts didn't have the death penalty? I checked, and Wikipedia agrees. So how can the DOJ be asked for it?

Is it a federal thing? It seems utterly bizarre that the feds could just overrule a state like that.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

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Thesh
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Thesh » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:40 am UTC

State and Federal courts and prisons are completely separate, so the state laws don't apply to the federal justice system.

I'm also on the side of not executing prisoners, although I don't think I will lose any sleep over Tsarnaev. Would I prefer he didn't be executed? Yes, but it's not a strong conviction compared to the average person who is executed in this country.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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TheGrammarBolshevik
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:41 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I thought Massachusetts didn't have the death penalty? I checked, and Wikipedia agrees. So how can the DOJ be asked for it?

Is it a federal thing? It seems utterly bizarre that the feds could just overrule a state like that.

We talked about this before.
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.


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