Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby fifiste » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:25 pm UTC

bouer wrote:
fifiste wrote:The difference being mainly numbers/power - like with most anything else in this world.


I'm not sure about that, Judaism is very small but commands a great deal of respect.

More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similiar but it's secular so there's no problem.


Thats why I wrote numbers/power not just numbers.
Your sect might have power because it has large number of followers, or rich followers, or heavily armed, or politically connected yadayada yada. The power part being important.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:38 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So Belial, when do you think it's acceptable to call bullshit on a religion?

Usually when they start scamming their followers out of money and labor, or acting like an exploitive brainwashing cult (JWs, CoS). Or, I guess, when it's clear that none of the adherents are actually serious (Jedi Church, FSM, Universal Life Church)

Barring those caveats, they're all bullshit or none of them are. Start passing judgement on which ones have ridiculous and incredible origins and you basically have to conclude that all of them do.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby fifiste » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:47 pm UTC

Exactly - otherwise we wouldn't call them faiths.*

For me it goes like this. Something confirm-able/testable/falsifiable - if you say something it's either lies/erroneous etc. or truth/confirmed etc.
Something untestable - we have moved from truth and lies to the BS territory.

*If they had credible/confirm-able/testable origins.
Last edited by fifiste on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:49 pm UTC

Yeah, calling BS on Wicca is totally different than calling BS on CoS. And they way you did it was kind of an arrogant, jerk-ish way.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:11 pm UTC

Alright, I'll concede that point.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:21 pm UTC

Anyway, Boy Scouts.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Paradigm_Arsonist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

Wow, I didn't know that homosexuals couldn't be boy scouts in the US. I'm surprised that that kind of discrimination was allowed up until now.

Glad to see that such policies do not exist in the UK (I cannot see how they could exist, anyway):
Homosexual people are not restricted from membership or leadership positions in Scouts Canada, the Baden-Powell Service Association in the United States, Scouts Australia, and most European associations, including The Scout Association of the United Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände of Germany (German Scout Federation), and the Swedish Guide and Scout Association.[10]
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_controversy_and_conflict#Homosexual_people

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

I imagine the gay leader part is mostly to appease a minority of crazy parents who worry about their kids being molested / catching the gay.

The good news is that the scouts now have a chance to realize that their gay friends are people, too. So at the very least we should see gay leaders when today's scouts have kids in scouts.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

bouer wrote:
fifiste wrote:The difference being mainly numbers/power - like with most anything else in this world.


I'm not sure about that, Judaism is very small but commands a great deal of respect.

More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similiar but it's secular so there's no problem.


The UK has scouts. AFAIK they're not generally linked to churches so much (and even those organisations (scouts or otherwise) which use church halls generally don't have to do anything to convince the church to hire it out to them other than pay). They also don't seem to care too much about gay members or leaders.

I haven't personally done anything directly with the scouts, but I work at a sailing centre which does quite a few things with scouts and AFAIK they've never had any problems with instructors' sexuality (although they may well be operating a DADT type policy).
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I'm not sure we can blame the restrictions on affiliated churches. BSA still doesn't let atheists in and presumably members of non-Abrahamic religions are similarly snubbed. They aren't quite a secular organization, at least nominally.



It depends. I am openly pagan, and was growing up (hurrah for getting kicked out of Sunday School the first day, at age six!), but had a good time in Scouts. We were sponsored by a Congregationalist/non-denominational church (the one where I was kicked out of Sunday School, incidentally), and we had a couple of gay scouts at one point, and one leader whom we later found out was gay (when he divorced his wife to move in with his boyfriend). It was never a big deal, though.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Tax exemptions, mostly, like the CoS. Some minor things like trying to get special permission to do certain drugs or other practices the general populace can't do.


citation needed.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

bouer wrote:More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similar but it's secular so there's no problem.
Boy scouts started in England, the founder (Baden-Powell) was British and the troop structure was based off of the British military. Bear Grylls which everyone knows is currently chief scout over there.

And there are dozens and dozens of other countries with some form of the program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... nt_members
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:16 pm UTC


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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Alexius » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:18 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The UK has scouts. AFAIK they're not generally linked to churches so much (and even those organisations (scouts or otherwise) which use church halls generally don't have to do anything to convince the church to hire it out to them other than pay). They also don't seem to care too much about gay members or leaders.

They do have some church links- I think some groups attend church services as a group, though I don't think it's compulsory for individual Scouts. They also have to "promise to do their best to do their duty to God and the Queen".

There are also certainly scout groups in the UK that are linked to the overall movement and to a religion other than Christianity.

And I haven't heard of any issues with gay Scouts or leaders.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Citation

Of course, I think the problem with that is they should allow cannabis for EVERYONE.

But yeah, good citation.
I like the quote:
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If the action is terrible, it shouldn't be allowed. But Maurizio Gasparri unintentionally demonstrated how foolish it looks to ban pot. We should be banning bad things, like murder. We should not be banning kids from participating in the Scouts based on whom they are attracted to. Good news is the private organization is lifting the ban on gay scouts.

The leadership one will likely be an issue for a while. People worry about non-"standard" sexuality mixing with children because there's a fear that links homosexuality with pedophilia. Although, even if that were true... it seems unfortunate to ban someone from participating in an event just because of whom they are attracted to.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby philsov » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:46 pm UTC

This sends a wonderful message to kids, eh? "You're gay? I guess you can stay for now, but as soon as you reach the age of majority you can fuck right off."


Better than "fuck off" outright, though.

It still sucks for the newly-turned 18 year olds who stick (stuck?) around for a few months before going off to college, the majority of camp counselors, any level of council leadership (not just troop scoutmasters/helpers, all manner of admin who rarely interact with children, much less troop leadership), and the fathers who wants to participate with their son's troop/activities -- but eh, it's something.

I'm interested to see how this works out with regards to donations -- for a while the LDS church held the purse strings which is one of the reasons why it's taken THIS LONG for the BSA to reach acceptance levels. It's more than just crazy parents, it's the crazy RICH parents who help shape the policy. In the past it's been an economic decision more than a political/moral one.

But I can happily say that in the numerous scout troops I've been in or witnessed in my run as a summer camp counselor -- on the local level in Texas -- no one in any leadership position gives a shit if a kid is gay or not. It's very DADT at this point, officially.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Diadem » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:20 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
bouer wrote:More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similar but it's secular so there's no problem.
Boy scouts started in England, the founder (Baden-Powell) was British and the troop structure was based off of the British military. Bear Grylls which everyone knows is currently chief scout over there.

And there are dozens and dozens of other countries with some form of the program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... nt_members

It lists the US scouts as boys only. But doesn't the US have girl scouts too? I know that's a separate organization, but they are not an official member of the international scouting organization? I'm kind of shocked that the world scouting organization would allow such openly sexist organizations in their ranks, by the way.

Also, in the list of 'things I did not know': Over half of all the scouts in the world are Indonesian. I wonder why that is. Scouting isn't, and never was, a major thing over here, so they didn't get it from us. Neither is it closely associated with Islam, so they didn't get it from there either. Perhaps scouting is just a lot of fun in a jungle country? :D They have 17 million members on a population of 240 million, so that's pretty much every single kid.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:30 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:The leadership one will likely be an issue for a while. People worry about non-"standard" sexuality mixing with children because there's a fear that links homosexuality with pedophilia. Although, even if that were true... it seems unfortunate to ban someone from participating in an event just because of whom they are attracted to.


Also because people are scared that the leaders would try to "convert" their kids to being gay. :roll:
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Citation



Because Rastafarians are totally Wiccans, amirite?
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:48 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Citation



Because Rastafarians are totally Wiccans, amirite?

Because that straw man is totally CorruptUser, amirite?

...so, Boy Scouts.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Puppyclaws » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:
bouer wrote:More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similar but it's secular so there's no problem.
Boy scouts started in England, the founder (Baden-Powell) was British and the troop structure was based off of the British military. Bear Grylls which everyone knows is currently chief scout over there.

And there are dozens and dozens of other countries with some form of the program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... nt_members

It lists the US scouts as boys only. But doesn't the US have girl scouts too? I know that's a separate organization, but they are not an official member of the international scouting organization? I'm kind of shocked that the world scouting organization would allow such openly sexist organizations in their ranks, by the way.


As you can see linked on that Wikipedia page, there is a separate organization of female scouting groups with similar roots, to which the Girl Scouts of America is tied. It also says that World Scouting Organization recognizes only one scouting organization per nation; so, if a nation's biggest scouting organizations are divided by gender, then only one gender will be covered by this group.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:26 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:
bouer wrote:More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similar but it's secular so there's no problem.
Boy scouts started in England, the founder (Baden-Powell) was British and the troop structure was based off of the British military. Bear Grylls which everyone knows is currently chief scout over there.

And there are dozens and dozens of other countries with some form of the program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... nt_members

It lists the US scouts as boys only. But doesn't the US have girl scouts too? I know that's a separate organization, but they are not an official member of the international scouting organization? I'm kind of shocked that the world scouting organization would allow such openly sexist organizations in their ranks, by the way.

Also, in the list of 'things I did not know': Over half of all the scouts in the world are Indonesian. I wonder why that is. Scouting isn't, and never was, a major thing over here, so they didn't get it from us. Neither is it closely associated with Islam, so they didn't get it from there either. Perhaps scouting is just a lot of fun in a jungle country? :D They have 17 million members on a population of 240 million, so that's pretty much every single kid.
Venturing scouts is a branch of Boy Scouts which allows female members 14-21. It is targeted at older age groups. Sea scouts a branch within venturing allows females as well, again targeted at older age groups.
But it's a terrible idea in general to have a bunch of middle school age boys around girls with minimal adult supervision and that's why there are such stringent rules concerning "co-ed" camping (as in girl's tents can't even be next to boy's tents).

Indonesia has a per capita GDP below 4k but a really decent infrastructure. I would think the valuable skills taught would be an excellent draw to youth in the country.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby bluebambue » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:57 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:But it's a terrible idea in general to have a bunch of middle school age boys around girls with minimal adult supervision and that's why there are such stringent rules concerning "co-ed" camping (as in girl's tents can't even be next to boy's tents).
Side note: I was a Venture scout. IFAIK there was no hanky panky going one, but we totally did not follow any rules about tent proximity. It probably helped that we were an all girl troup for the first few years we existed when culture was being set.

Big state-wide camping events with 5,000 boys and 15 girls? Fun times.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

bouer wrote:More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similiar but it's secular so there's no problem.


scouting didn't originate in the US.

There's scouting groups in almost every country in the world.
Most based on the model of the UK scout groups founded by Baden-Powell.

The boy scouts of america are just one little organisation among hundreds.
there's about 40 million scouts worldwide.

Their ban on gay scouts has actually caused some international friction with other nations scout groups since one of the central tenants is that a scout is a scout no matter if they're part of your own particular organisation. the BSA was basically pissing all over that by declaring that scouts from other countries weren't real scouts if they also happened to be gay.

religion-wise internationally scouting is something like the masons: no specific religion but in theory you're supposed to believe in some kind of higher power with individual scouting organisations taking different positions.

Side note: I was a Venture scout. IFAIK there was no hanky panky going one, but we totally did not follow any rules about tent proximity. It probably helped that we were an all girl troup for the first few years we existed when culture was being set.


this varies massively by country.
I don't remember any rules about tent proximity but my old group didn't allow co-ed tents.

on the other hand when we went to a German event the whole german group slept in one giant tent.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:01 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:So Belial, when do you think it's acceptable to call bullshit on a religion?

Usually when they start scamming their followers out of money and labor, or acting like an exploitive brainwashing cult (JWs, CoS). Or, I guess, when it's clear that none of the adherents are actually serious (Jedi Church, FSM, Universal Life Church)

Barring those caveats, they're all bullshit or none of them are. Start passing judgement on which ones have ridiculous and incredible origins and you basically have to conclude that all of them do.


I am pretty ok with calling them all bullshit.

However, there's definitely degrees of bullshit. I would certainly describe the Westboro folks as more bullshit than most, for instance.

Likewise, this new policy, while still bullshit, is at least less bullshit filled than the previous one.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:However, there's definitely degrees of bullshit. I would certainly describe the Westboro folks as more bullshit than most, for instance.

But what determines the degree of bullshit? Their number of followers? How genuinely they follow their own teaching and / or beliefs? How weird the story is from an 'objective' point of view?

Personally I've always thought Christianity is one of the weirdest religions ever.

There once was a father, who had lots of sons and daughters. But his sons and daughters kept misbehaving. The father wanted to forgive them for this, but he just couldn't find it in his heart to do so. So he devised a plan. He went out a raped a random woman, who got pregnant, resulting in a new son. And this son grew up to be totally awesome person, basically the nicest guy you'd ever meet. So the father had all his other sons and daughters slowly torture him to death. After this, he was finally able to forgive his other sons and daughters. Hallelujah!

Scientology makes more sense, really.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:However, there's definitely degrees of bullshit. I would certainly describe the Westboro folks as more bullshit than most, for instance.

But what determines the degree of bullshit? Their number of followers? How genuinely they follow their own teaching and / or beliefs? How weird the story is from an 'objective' point of view?

Personally I've always thought Christianity is one of the weirdest religions ever.

There once was a father, who had lots of sons and daughters. But his sons and daughters kept misbehaving. The father wanted to forgive them for this, but he just couldn't find it in his heart to do so. So he devised a plan. He went out a raped a random woman, who got pregnant, resulting in a new son. And this son grew up to be totally awesome person, basically the nicest guy you'd ever meet. So the father had all his other sons and daughters slowly torture him to death. After this, he was finally able to forgive his other sons and daughters. Hallelujah!

Scientology makes more sense, really.

Don't forget the cannabilism. Again, Azathoth is always recruiting. Alternatively, we can bring back the god-kings of old where we combine leader=god. That would be quaint if instead of a symbolic monarchy, we had a symbolic god-king.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

Well, it does make a tiny bit more sense than you give it credit for Diadem.

Instead it's that the father couldn't find it in his heart to forgive them unless they gave him some lamb. And then, one day he was all "fuck this shit, I've had lamb for thousands of years, it's time for a change" so he raped a woman, had his kids torture the poor sod to death so he could have him instead of lamb. And then he was totally cool with his kids as long as they remembered that time he didn't want lamb.

sardia wrote:Don't forget the cannabilism.


The cannabilism only really comes in with the doctrine of transsubstantiation which is hella weird, but is a catholic (specifically) thing not a christian (generally) thing.

Of course, catholicism does have some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs. "Thou shalt have no other god but me" is fine, but for some reason saints (and of course Mary) who can hear prayers and intercede totally don't count.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:However, there's definitely degrees of bullshit. I would certainly describe the Westboro folks as more bullshit than most, for instance.

But what determines the degree of bullshit? Their number of followers? How genuinely they follow their own teaching and / or beliefs? How weird the story is from an 'objective' point of view?

Personally I've always thought Christianity is one of the weirdest religions ever.

There once was a father, who had lots of sons and daughters. But his sons and daughters kept misbehaving. The father wanted to forgive them for this, but he just couldn't find it in his heart to do so. So he devised a plan. He went out a raped a random woman, who got pregnant, resulting in a new son. And this son grew up to be totally awesome person, basically the nicest guy you'd ever meet. So the father had all his other sons and daughters slowly torture him to death. After this, he was finally able to forgive his other sons and daughters. Hallelujah!

Scientology makes more sense, really.


Oh, and the son that was murdered? He was both a direct male descendant of King David (the king of the Jews claim) and the son of god. How can it be both ways? Because god is powerful enough to contradict himself!

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:40 pm UTC

One, we should be careful before we devolve into unnecessary christian bashing.

That being said, have you ever noticed how druidic and pagan christianity is? Take for example our obsession with trees and plants. We take a tree from the woods, and we put religious symbols all around it. We put our kids in a garden, aka kindergarden.
Of course, there's a word for this, Christianity is a syncretic religion. It absorbs local traditions and incorporates it into the religion as if it was true all along. It's like, hell it is exactly, thousands of people telling the same story and adjusting it to their needs. It's why I find it laughable when people claim something on religious grounds.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

sardia wrote: It absorbs local traditions and incorporates it into the religion as if it was true all along. It's like, hell...

For a second I thought you were going to talk about how hell is all questionably gathered from mythology and there's no real basis for it in the Bible.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:54 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
sardia wrote: It absorbs local traditions and incorporates it into the religion as if it was true all along. It's like, hell...

For a second I thought you were going to talk about how hell is all questionably gathered from mythology and there's no real basis for it in the Bible.


Hel, on the other hand, totally comes from the Prose Eddas (Snorri, I think).
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Soralin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Of course, catholicism does have some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs. "Thou shalt have no other god but me" is fine, but for some reason saints (and of course Mary) who can hear prayers and intercede totally don't count.

Christian mythology also has angels and demons and ghosts and witches and other such supernatural entities that also don't count. Adding one more set doesn't seem that out of place.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:08 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Personally I've always thought Christianity is one of the weirdest religions ever.
Spoiler:
There once was a father, who had lots of sons and daughters. But his sons and daughters kept misbehaving. The father wanted to forgive them for this, but he just couldn't find it in his heart to do so. So he devised a plan. He went out a raped a random woman, who got pregnant, resulting in a new son. And this son grew up to be totally awesome person, basically the nicest guy you'd ever meet. So the father had all his other sons and daughters slowly torture him to death. After this, he was finally able to forgive his other sons and daughters. Hallelujah!
None of this is even remotely what Christians believe. Cool story, though.
eSOANEM wrote:Of course, catholicism does have some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs.
Up until recently, every Christian held those beliefs, so calling them "non-Christian" really illustrates how poorly informed you are on this topic. I suggest Wikipedia. It's quite helpful.

Really, this is all pretty off-topic. Unless you guys object to the BSA having non-profit status, their choice of religion is irrelevant.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby philsov » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:42 pm UTC

Unless you guys object to the BSA having non-profit status, their choice of religion is irrelevant.


Well the BSA also doesn't have an official religious stance, either. It just happens to be predominately christian, mostly because most of its leaders and members are also christian. When I went to philmont they had prayer books available for the muslim backpackers to say prior to each meal and other times of day. The only thing the BSA is adamant about is having ANY religion, because it's obviously hard to be Reverent and do a duty to God if you're a secular humanist.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

philsov wrote:Because it's obviously hard to be Reverent and do a duty to God if you're a secular humanist.
I loved my atheist friend's excuse that the definition of reverent is "deeply respectful".
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

philsov wrote:
Unless you guys object to the BSA having non-profit status, their choice of religion is irrelevant.


Well the BSA also doesn't have an official religious stance, either. It just happens to be predominately christian, mostly because most of its leaders and members are also christian. When I went to philmont they had prayer books available for the muslim backpackers to say prior to each meal and other times of day. The only thing the BSA is adamant about is having ANY religion, because it's obviously hard to be Reverent and do a duty to God if you're a secular humanist.



We had a discussion about that in my troop at one point, with one of the leaders saying something along the lines of, "As long as you can see the beauty in nature, and acknowledge the spiritual side of things, that's good enough." So I suppose you could be a secular humanist as long as you are not a crass, cynical materialist.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby philsov » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:43 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
philsov wrote:Because it's obviously hard to be Reverent and do a duty to God if you're a secular humanist.
I loved my atheist friend's excuse that the definition of reverent is "deeply respectful".


That's... not too far off. As per the handbook:

A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

If a lack of belief nullifies the necessity for reverence and has no religious duties, Reverent does get reduced to "respect others' beliefs." But that's a big if.

~

eran_rathan wrote:with one of the leaders saying something along the lines of, "As long as you can see the beauty in nature, and acknowledge the spiritual side of things, that's good enough." So I suppose you could be a secular humanist as long as you are not a crass, cynical materialist.


One thing to realize is that "one of the leaders" can very likely be just another hapless adult with his own ideas about everything.

Of course, "God" also can get happily warped into a nonfunctional entity. And from a practical standpoint (and as an atheist myself) not being a cynical materialist (atheist 2.0?) is indeed "good enough" but it doesn't follow the current letter of the law even if it does follow the spirit of the law.

But then there's some snippets about Baden Powell and atheism. And oh sweet Jeebus the tip-toeing.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

As per handbook '98. I don't own a copy of the newest one so I don't know if they've made any modifications but that's still an interpretation of the law.

I'd be one of the people Powell described like this: "fellows who, though not violently opposed to religion, are not particularly interested in it... ...it has not proved very attractive or inspiring and they have let it slide..."

Being a cynical materialist tends to go against the scout law regardless of religion.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

Soralin wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Of course, catholicism does have some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs. "Thou shalt have no other god but me" is fine, but for some reason saints (and of course Mary) who can hear prayers and intercede totally don't count.

Christian mythology also has angels and demons and ghosts and witches and other such supernatural entities that also don't count. Adding one more set doesn't seem that out of place.


Depending on your definition of holding a god, that's more reasonable seeing as they're not worshipped or relied on the same way as saints in Catholicism.

Heisenberg wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Of course, catholicism does have some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs.
Up until recently, every Christian held those beliefs, so calling them "non-Christian" really illustrates how poorly informed you are on this topic. I suggest Wikipedia. It's quite helpful.


It's true that transubstantiation was widespread until recently however I never claimed that was unchristian (although I did make the mistake of assuming it was a Catholic thing rather than a not-protestant thing). What I did claim was unchristian was the belief in the direct intervention of saints and their ability to answer prayer. This pretty directly contradicts the first commandment which, last time I checked, was a pretty fundamental tenet of Christian belief (albeit one which was simplified later).
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