Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

Strictly speaking, the first commandment is "Thou shall hold no other gods BEFORE me". It isn't "thou shall worship no other gods".

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby natraj » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:41 pm UTC

also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:11 am UTC

natraj wrote:also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:14 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Strictly speaking, the first commandment is "Thou shall hold no other gods BEFORE me". It isn't "thou shall worship no other gods".


But "before" might mean a number of different things. Plus, biblical precedent is more important, isn't it? It seems like in the bible, all paganism and idolatry got a pretty steep punishment regardless of worshipping god.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:20 am UTC

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:20 am UTC

natraj wrote:also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.


Yeah, I mean, a lot of the folk beliefs around catholicism basically do treat them the way you would treat household gods in ancient rome (because really, I doubt anyone who's burying a statuette of saint joseph to sell their house is thinking "this'll convince him to talk to god on my behalf"). To say nothing of stuff like Santeria which doesn't really count.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:45 am UTC

Brace wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Strictly speaking, the first commandment is "Thou shall hold no other gods BEFORE me". It isn't "thou shall worship no other gods".


But "before" might mean a number of different things. Plus, biblical precedent is more important, isn't it? It seems like in the bible, all paganism and idolatry got a pretty steep punishment regardless of worshipping god.


Everything got a steep punishment in the old testament, it seems, but yeah, people who worshiped idols got it rough. It didn't really address the topic of small-god type worship, though. Mostly, the idolaters were held up as examples of "this is what happens if you worship those other weak gods".

Hell, look at the egyptian bit. The egyptian priests turned their staves into snakes. Moses then turned his into a bigger, badder snake that ate theirs.

The message isn't necessary "this is the only god-like being", but rather "this is the most badass god-like being. Treat him as the boss".


In parts, anyway. That whole "being written by a whole bunch of people across a lot of time" results in some mixed messages here and there.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:48 am UTC

I always get confused around the There is no God, but God part.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:03 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I always get confused around the There is no God, but God part.

Why? It's a translation of a translation of a collection of stories written down by guys hundreds of years after said story took place. And you're confused by that one phrase? Does that phrase have multiple meanings depending on what kind of judo-christian you are?

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:26 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:I always get confused around the There is no God, but God part.

Why? It's a translation of a translation of a collection of stories written down by guys hundreds of years after said story took place. And you're confused by that one phrase? Does that phrase have multiple meanings depending on what kind of judo-christian you are?



Are the judo-Christians the ones who knock on your door, and when you shake their hand they throw you over their shoulder?

Because that always confused me.


(I think you mean Judeo-Christian :wink: )
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Strictly speaking, the first commandment is "Thou shall hold no other gods BEFORE me". It isn't "thou shall worship no other gods".


Depends on translation. Some use "no other gods but me".

natraj wrote:also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.


Saints are regularly prayed to (rather than to God) and there are certainly instances of Catholics claiming to receive visions from saints (rather than from God) or that the saints themselves intervene in other cases.

Besides, the first commandment (in the Catholic Catechism) also forbids idolatry and the way I've seen Catholics queue for hours to touch a "holy" statue of Mary which is supposed to grant good health certainly seems a lot like idolatry to me. The same applies to many other relics and how they're revered.

sardia wrote:
natraj wrote:also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.
If it quacks like a god, looks like a god, chances are it's a god with sheep's clothing over it. I'm sure there are Jews out there who worship this one saint as a god, we call them Christians.


Yeah, the whole trinity does come across as quite rules-lawyer-ish.

eran_rathan wrote:
sardia wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:I always get confused around the There is no God, but God part.

Why? It's a translation of a translation of a collection of stories written down by guys hundreds of years after said story took place. And you're confused by that one phrase? Does that phrase have multiple meanings depending on what kind of judo-christian you are?



Are the judo-Christians the ones who knock on your door, and when you shake their hand they throw you over their shoulder?

Because that always confused me.


(I think you mean Judeo-Christian :wink: )


Also, seeing as that phrasing is usually associated with the Qur'an, Judeo-Christian still isn't a great term. "which Abrahamic faith you belong to" or even "which branch of the Abrahamic Faith you belong to" (depending on how controversial you want to be) would probably be better.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

Judo Christian. You?
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

Man, you live with spellcheck on firefox all your life, and the moment you get on IE...Bam you look like an idiot.

Moving on, aren't saints mostly a Latin America thing? Or were saints a part of christianity that Latin America uses a lot more than anyone else?

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Man, you live with spellcheck on firefox all your life, and the moment you get on IE...Bam you look like an idiot.

Moving on, aren't saints mostly a Latin America thing? Or were saints a part of christianity that Latin America uses a lot more than anyone else?



HUGE part in the Middle Ages. The church did have a sense of humor; the patron saint of cooks was boiled and eaten by cannibals.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

It's mainly that the Catholic church in particular got a bit carried away with saints. Seeing as in Latin America, Catholicism is the predominant denomination of Christianity, it could easily seem like a Latin American thing.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:23 pm UTC

It's not like the church got carried away with saints, it's intentional. What do you do when a monotheistic religion meets a group of converts who worship a minor deity? It's a lot easier to incorporate minor diety, aka a saint, into your religion then it is to call them a heretic. If you try to stamp it out, you get schisms and religious wars over really minor stuff.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Diemo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:27 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
Tirian wrote:On the other hand, reverent practitioners of Wicca have faced resistance when trying to become Eagle Scouts, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vodoun were just as unwelcome.


Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.


Wicca's about as legit as mormonism, I think you meant to say.


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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Роберт » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:33 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:
Belial wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
Tirian wrote:On the other hand, reverent practitioners of Wicca have faced resistance when trying to become Eagle Scouts, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vodoun were just as unwelcome.


Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.


Wicca's about as legit as mormonism, I think you meant to say.


I believe that he did indeed just say that

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Diemo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:11 pm UTC

Whoops, I managed to miss two whole pages there.

Spoiler:
Anyway, my point was that all religions are bollux. Which has indeed been covered
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:36 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Saints are regularly prayed to (rather than to God) and there are certainly instances of Catholics claiming to receive visions from saints (rather than from God) or that the saints themselves intervene in other cases.

Besides, the first commandment (in the Catholic Catechism) also forbids idolatry and the way I've seen Catholics queue for hours to touch a "holy" statue of Mary which is supposed to grant good health certainly seems a lot like idolatry to me. The same applies to many other relics and how they're revered.

None of this shit supports your claim that "catholicism [has] some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs" or that saints are worshiped as gods:
  • Prayers directed to saints are requests for saints to pray for people ... which is precisely what natraj just said in the thing you quoted. My mother asked me to pray for some family members recently, but I am pretty sure my mother does not think that I am god!
  • It's perfectly consistent with Christianity to receive a vision from something other than a God. To think of three Biblical examples off the top of my head, there are the angels which visit Lot in Sodom, the angel(s?) that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego see in the furnace, and the angel that shows up to let Joseph know that he can still marry Mary. Not to mention the angel that appears to Mary. So clearly neither Christianity nor Judaism says that the only thing that can appear to someone is a god.
  • I'd be curious for you to actually show an example of such a thing. Even if there is one, it doesn't really mean that the saints are regarded "as gods," especially not if this comes with the belief that actual-god-God gives them the power to do whatever it is that they do.
  • Whether or not it "seems like idolatry" to you, Acts 19 has people being healed because they touched handkerchiefs that touched Paul. Is the book of Acts "weird and non-Christian"?

Two other points. First, as natraj pointed out, you can't infer from the fact that some Catholics believe one thing or another that "catholicism believes" that same thing. First of all, because different Catholics believe different things, and so you quickly end up with contradictions if you can just point to anything that has some believers somewhere and say that "catholicism believes" in that thing. But second, because there are plenty of examples of things that Catholicism does believe that many Catholics do not. For example, Catholicism says that artificial birth control is morally impermissible. This is in the Catechism, it's been affirmed by various writings from Popes and from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and so on; it's about as "official Catholic" as you can get. And yet many Catholics - most, at least, in the United States - see nothing wrong with birth control and practice it themselves. Surely this does not mean that "catholicism believes" that birth control is permissible after all.

Second, the practices that you cite here are are common not only to Catholicism but also to Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. That comes to about 1.5 billion Christians, which is about 70% of the total Christian population. So to maintain what you're saying here, you also have to say that a belief can be "non-christian" even while a significant majority of Christians hold that belief. I'd be curious to know what standard you think defines Christianity independently of the actual beliefs of Christians.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:04 pm UTC

you can't infer from the fact that some Catholics believe one thing or another that "catholicism believes" that same thing.

I'd be curious to know what standard you think defines Christianity independently of the actual beliefs of Christians.


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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 pm UTC

Right. Difference being that there is a central governing body that is usually identified with "Catholicism," where there is no such authority for Christianity as a whole.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Tirian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:01 pm UTC

I agree. Let me give a personal example. When I joined the Presbyterian Church, in principle I agreed to the Westminster Confession of Faith. In fact, though, it is understood that I can take scruple with the individual tenets within and declare that I find some of them neither essential nor necessary elements of Christian faith. So assuming that I believe in predestination because I am a Presbyterian is not a valid inference, nor is it a valid inference to assume that my rejection of John Calvin's theology makes me a "bad" Presbyterian.

But my sister-in-law, who is a Roman Catholic, doesn't enjoy the same luxury. She is bound by the catechism and a set of creeds in a way that I am not bound by Westminster. To a certain degree, when she strays from those doctrines, she isn't a progressive Catholic so much as a minor heretic. Of course, she's not going to be burned at the stake or excommunicated any time soon, so we can debate whether we are exercising the same privilege, but there are those who will argue that the No True Scotsman fallacy does apply to (little-c) catholic faiths in the sense I just mentioned.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby AndyG314 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Anyway, Boy Scouts.


So I've been involved in scouts off and on both as a scout and an adult for about twenty years. In that time I have known of multiple gay scouts and leaders none of them was ever asked to leave the organisation. I realise that this is not likely to be the case nationwide (I do live in Massachusetts). While it would certainly be nice if National lifted the ban, I don't think it would change the situation on the ground very much.

Even if all troops were ordered to immediately accept gay boys as scouts (which I think is unlikely they will probably lift the ban, but allow units to not allow gay scouts at their discretion) troops that didn't want any gay members will continue to exclude them in defiance of official rules, just like how many troops now allow it. There are undoubtedly units that do exclude gays simply because national says so, and may gay boys don't sign up because of the policy so it would improve the situation, but the effects will be limited. Also, I doubt that many gay boys will want to suddenly sign up to be members of an organisation that has discriminated against them over a decade.

Ultimately I think that National will lift the ban, but not institute the mandate, probably by saying the no longer have a policy regarding gay scouts. For years they have had the ban, mostly to keep their most conservative members happy, but the public opinion tide has been turning on this issue a lot in the last 10 years and the BSA really can't afford the bad press. As the saying goes, when your in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby bouer » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:42 pm UTC

I think they have been discriminated against for closer to a century than a decade.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:10 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's not like the church got carried away with saints, it's intentional. What do you do when a monotheistic religion meets a group of converts who worship a minor deity? It's a lot easier to incorporate minor diety, aka a saint, into your religion then it is to call them a heretic. If you try to stamp it out, you get schisms and religious wars over really minor stuff.


True, there is that one saint who happens to totally be the Buddha.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Saints are regularly prayed to (rather than to God) and there are certainly instances of Catholics claiming to receive visions from saints (rather than from God) or that the saints themselves intervene in other cases.

Besides, the first commandment (in the Catholic Catechism) also forbids idolatry and the way I've seen Catholics queue for hours to touch a "holy" statue of Mary which is supposed to grant good health certainly seems a lot like idolatry to me. The same applies to many other relics and how they're revered.

None of this shit supports your claim that "catholicism [has] some pretty weird and non-christian beliefs" or that saints are worshiped as gods:
  • Prayers directed to saints are requests for saints to pray for people ... which is precisely what natraj just said in the thing you quoted. My mother asked me to pray for some family members recently, but I am pretty sure my mother does not think that I am god!
  • It's perfectly consistent with Christianity to receive a vision from something other than a God. To think of three Biblical examples off the top of my head, there are the angels which visit Lot in Sodom, the angel(s?) that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego see in the furnace, and the angel that shows up to let Joseph know that he can still marry Mary. Not to mention the angel that appears to Mary. So clearly neither Christianity nor Judaism says that the only thing that can appear to someone is a god.
  • I'd be curious for you to actually show an example of such a thing. Even if there is one, it doesn't really mean that the saints are regarded "as gods," especially not if this comes with the belief that actual-god-God gives them the power to do whatever it is that they do.
  • Whether or not it "seems like idolatry" to you, Acts 19 has people being healed because they touched handkerchiefs that touched Paul. Is the book of Acts "weird and non-Christian"?

Two other points. First, as natraj pointed out, you can't infer from the fact that some Catholics believe one thing or another that "catholicism believes" that same thing. First of all, because different Catholics believe different things, and so you quickly end up with contradictions if you can just point to anything that has some believers somewhere and say that "catholicism believes" in that thing. But second, because there are plenty of examples of things that Catholicism does believe that many Catholics do not. For example, Catholicism says that artificial birth control is morally impermissible. This is in the Catechism, it's been affirmed by various writings from Popes and from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and so on; it's about as "official Catholic" as you can get. And yet many Catholics - most, at least, in the United States - see nothing wrong with birth control and practice it themselves. Surely this does not mean that "catholicism believes" that birth control is permissible after all.

Second, the practices that you cite here are are common not only to Catholicism but also to Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. That comes to about 1.5 billion Christians, which is about 70% of the total Christian population. So to maintain what you're saying here, you also have to say that a belief can be "non-christian" even while a significant majority of Christians hold that belief. I'd be curious to know what standard you think defines Christianity independently of the actual beliefs of Christians.


Having looked into it in more detail, it does appear that I was incorrect with the saints.

I will point out that being visited by an angel is not the same as being granted a vision. One would be a visit from some supernatural but physical being whilst the other is a being having the power (and using it) to implant thoughts (and therefore images) in someone's mind. The former just requires the existence of angels, the latter that they have certain god-like powers (of course, the definition of a god is a slightly fuzzy one particularly in the Abrahamic faiths).

Objects absorbing some of the holiness would not be idolatrist per se, it becomes idolatry once those objects start being revered for themselves (as is pretty definitely the case when people build a monastery on top of a mountain to house it and people queue up for hours to touch it).

As for how I'm defining Christian beliefs, I'm basing that almost exclusively on the teaching of Jesus as recorded in the gospels. Of course, this declares most churches unchristian straight away because most churches hold dogma, something which Jesus was pretty vocally against (a priest at a service I was at once gave a sermon on it once; lots of the congregation were not pleased). The main reason I picked out Catholicism is that they certainly seem closer to many unchristian beliefs than protestant churches and also that I am not anywhere near so familiar with the Orthodox churches.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:03 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The former just requires the existence of angels, the latter that they have certain god-like powers (of course, the definition of a god is a slightly fuzzy one particularly in the Abrahamic faiths).
If other entities have the power to do so then the ability wouldn't be able to be described as god-like. It is easy enough to find quotes in the bible along the lines of "God said X" just because God can talk doesn't make talking a godlike ability and by association humans as godlike. A godlike ability would generally have to be something attributable only to God.

AndyG314 wrote:Ultimately I think that National will lift the ban, but not institute the mandate, probably by saying the no longer have a policy regarding gay scouts. For years they have had the ban, mostly to keep their most conservative members happy, but the public opinion tide has been turning on this issue a lot in the last 10 years and the BSA really can't afford the bad press. As the saying goes, when your in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:24 am UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:The former just requires the existence of angels, the latter that they have certain god-like powers (of course, the definition of a god is a slightly fuzzy one particularly in the Abrahamic faiths).
If other entities have the power to do so then the ability wouldn't be able to be described as god-like. It is easy enough to find quotes in the bible along the lines of "God said X" just because God can talk doesn't make talking a godlike ability and by association humans as godlike. A godlike ability would generally have to be something attributable only to God.


Yes, this is what I mean when I say that Abrahamic faiths seem to have done a good job of making the term "god" fuzzy. Wikipedia defines a deity as being "a being, natural, supernatural or preternatural, with superhuman powers or qualities, and who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred. Believers may consider or believe that they can communicate with the deity, who can respond supernaturally to their entreaties, and that the deity's myths are true. Some religions have one supreme deity, others have multiple deities of various ranks." (also, the page for "god" (lower case) is that for a deity). By that definition, Saints being able to hear prayer qualifies them as deities; angels' ability to be eldritch as fuck (mainly the ophanim (who seem to have some sort of ability to phase through themselves seeing as they're meant to be composed of spinning interlocked wheels) and seraphim (whose burningly awesome true form bears a remarkable resemblance to traits attributed to "gods" in classical polytheism)) also possibly qualifies them under this definition.

Angels and saints occupy a similar level of deity-ness to nymphs in classical polytheism (who are usually analysed as minor deities) given this definition and yet most people who follow Abrahamic faiths would feel very strongly that to describe angels and saints as such would be inaccurate. The problem is that these faiths have significant henotheistic aspects but insist on thinking of themselves as monotheistic.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:17 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:As for how I'm defining Christian beliefs, I'm basing that almost exclusively on the teaching of Jesus as recorded in the gospels. Of course, this declares most churches unchristian straight away because most churches hold dogma, something which Jesus was pretty vocally against (a priest at a service I was at once gave a sermon on it once; lots of the congregation were not pleased). The main reason I picked out Catholicism is that they certainly seem closer to many unchristian beliefs than protestant churches and also that I am not anywhere near so familiar with the Orthodox churches.

...what.

No, he was against Pharisees exploiting the letter of the law while abusing its spirit to do massively immoral things while claiming to be upholding it, in a sort of "it doesn't count as eating meat on Friday if it's beaver, because those are aquatic and thus obviously fish". He was very, very much for there being a law, he was just disgusted by those making a mockery of it. Jesus in fact explicitly said that he was not, in any way, there to abolish the dogma:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Your priest was either confused or a heretic. There's also the faint, faint possibility that he was the devil leading you guys down the impure path (jk).
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

The priest was talking about dogma not directly from the Bible. So including all the many things which came later as a result of the early church trying to appeal more to classical polytheists, the many things from the councils of nicaea and anything which stems from a pope speaking ex cathedra (including those before the reformation and the eventual formation of the CoE).
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The priest was talking about dogma not directly from the Bible. So including all the many things which came later as a result of the early church trying to appeal more to classical polytheists, the many things from the councils of nicaea and anything which stems from a pope speaking ex cathedra (including those before the reformation and the eventual formation of the CoE).


That still has nothing to do with what Jesus was rebuking, which was stuff like refusing to tend to the wounded on the Sabbath because of the commandment against working on that day. As for ex cathedra, Catholics point to certain directions in the Bible as justification for it; if you disagree with their interpretation, fine, but claiming that Jesus "clearly said it was wrong" is itself very wrong. If your priest got the idea that Jesus preached against having dogma (and I guess, what, was for just feeling the mood or something?), then he is very, very much mistaken. If you're still Christian, I would not go to that church any more, because he's preaching in almost direct opposition to what the New Testament explicitly says in many places.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:06 pm UTC

Jesus preached sola scriptura before the New Testament was written? That's pretty impressive.

eSOANEM wrote:I will point out that being visited by an angel is not the same as being granted a vision. One would be a visit from some supernatural but physical being whilst the other is a being having the power (and using it) to implant thoughts (and therefore images) in someone's mind. The former just requires the existence of angels, the latter that they have certain god-like powers (of course, the definition of a god is a slightly fuzzy one particularly in the Abrahamic faiths).

I mentioned Joseph for a reason: his angelic vision comes to him in a dream.

As for idols, I think that as with saints themselves you're just wrong to say that relics are "being revered for themselves."
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:06 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:The priest was talking about dogma not directly from the Bible. So including all the many things which came later as a result of the early church trying to appeal more to classical polytheists, the many things from the councils of nicaea and anything which stems from a pope speaking ex cathedra (including those before the reformation and the eventual formation of the CoE).


That still has nothing to do with what Jesus was rebuking, which was stuff like refusing to tend to the wounded on the Sabbath because of the commandment against working on that day. As for ex cathedra, Catholics point to certain directions in the Bible as justification for it; if you disagree with their interpretation, fine, but claiming that Jesus "clearly said it was wrong" is itself very wrong. If your priest got the idea that Jesus preached against having dogma (and I guess, what, was for just feeling the mood or something?), then he is very, very much mistaken. If you're still Christian, I would not go to that church any more, because he's preaching in almost direct opposition to what the New Testament explicitly says in many places.

The bible has lots of contradictions, just pick what you like the most or w/e your peers do. Remember when the evangelists remade jesus into this hypermasculine figure? They completely skipped over the helping the needy part when it didn't suit their needs. Also the infamous slavery ok cause Bible says so example, or anything else you want. You hate environmental protection? Dominion over earth. Bam. You love the environment? Dominion over earth. Done. You want Jesus to be God, but not be god at the same time? Concept of the trinity, I pulled that out of my ass. Not even in the bible.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby addams » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:41 am UTC

Belial wrote:
natraj wrote:also, catholics don't worship saints as gods. Just think that since the saints are already in heaven chillin' with jesus they can ask god for things on people's behalf. it's like asking for divine nepotism sort of. but it isn't thinking that the saints ARE gods or have power to do anything themselves. just talk to god on people's behalf.

i mean, i'm sure there are catholics who worship saints as gods but there's catholics who do lots of things that aren't part of catechism.


Yeah, I mean, a lot of the folk beliefs around catholicism basically do treat them the way you would treat household gods in ancient rome (because really, I doubt anyone who's burying a statuette of saint joseph to sell their house is thinking "this'll convince him to talk to god on my behalf"). To say nothing of stuff like Santeria which doesn't really count.

Boy Scouts and Religion go together?
Maybe.

Who was Saint Santeria?
I will attempt to Google it, later.

Catholic Stuff is so fun.
Don't laugh while The Service is going on;
That is not nice.

Stupid Story
Spoiler:
I was inside a car with a Woman.
She was a Young Woman.

She had been explaining to me,
The Head of The FBI was prejudice against Gay People.

So; That is why she wanted to be a part of the FBI.
I was attempting to understand. It was hard.

She talked to me a lot. She told me about her first lover.
She told me a bunch of stuff I did not understand, very well.

We Both Spoke English. She was from New York.
I was and still am from The Pacific Northwest.

That woman could not build a Fire.
She and I and a few other people shared a Lovely and Strange House.

God? Or, Fire?

I worked in town. I walked Home at night.
I built the fires, most of the time.

One night I walked in she said, "I'm cold."
I said, "Build a fire."
She said, "I did."
I said, "Stand by it."

After a few minutes she said, "I'm cold."
I said, "Put more wood on the fire."

She was all grumpy.
I do not remember exactly what she said.
I was ready to warm up, too.

She said she had built a fire.
So, funny. It was cold.

I looked at the fire and said, "This is not a fire."
She was defencive. She said, "Yes, it is."

She had put all the stuff I put into the Fireplace in with little reguard to order.
It was funny. I listened to her explain what she had done and Why.

Then I took it all out and Built a Fire.
She had put some newspaper on the floor of the Fireplace.
She put a Log ontop of the paper.

She used kindling. It was on top of the Log.
That was weirder than being a Lesbian.

I liked her. She was a Lovely Young Woman.
She was entertaining. She was educational.

I taught her how to build a Fire.
In Boy Scouts, Back in The Day;
Build a Fire is the first thing Anyone learned.

Build a Fire; Tie a Knot.

Same Woman. We were in her car.
She was driving. We were crossing a Bridge.

The wind was blowing very hard.
She was a city girl. The wind caught the car and blew it toward an oncoming truck.

It was One of Those moments.
I was quiet. Noise is not helpful.

I have seen and heard a few things.
Even way back then I had had a few experences.

I have heard both men and women cuss.
Under those conditions I had heard, "Shiiit!" "Fuck. Fuck. Fuck." "Jesus." Sometimes he gets a second name. "Jesus Christ!" There is a list of things people will say. Some curse the wind. Some curse the truck. Some, just, scream. That woman said something different.

After we were across the bridge, I asked, "What did you say?"
She said, "Nothing. I didn't say anything."
"Yes, you did."
"What?" she asked.

I said it sounded like, "Marr-something."
She said, "Mary. I said Mary."
She said she did not know she had spoken.

I told her I had heard a lot of things said when in imediate danger. But, never Mary.
I asked her Why. "Why? Of all the things to say, Why did you say, 'Mary?'"

She explained.
We talked about it a lot for a while.

It took a while for my courosity to settle down.
It became an inside Joke. "MmAaaRryYY!"
So, funny.

A lesbian, FBI agent screaming, "Mary!"
Not nearly as exciting as it sounds.

So, While we were talking about The Subject she explained some stuff.
She said what so many others have said.

If there is No Heaven nor Hell.
If there is No God. Then fine.
No harm; No foul.

If there is a Heaven.
If there is a God and Saints and Angels and the Whole Thing.
Then, It is not good manners to walk in Screaming, "Fuck."

It is best to have a prayer on ones lips.
I listened while she talked herself into it.

She went from being embarrassed to being pleased.
She was pleased with herself.
When the chips were down, she was pleased with herself.

She learn to Build a Fire.
I learned the Hale Mary.

I am not a Catholic.
If there is a God,
it will not be the first time someone walked in all pissed off.

I might not say, just, Fuck.
It could easily be, "Fuck You! We need to talk!"

The Hale Mary is a short prayer.
We laughed about it a great deal.

A person does not want a long and complex poem at a time like that.
The Catholics practice that thing. They need to be ready.

Not like some of Those Assholes from CIA. Those guys are Not all Assholes.
Some are. How can a person tell? Well; Listen to them.

Boy Scouts? What for?
Skills. A person might need a skill.

I did not go to Boy Scouts for skills.
I liked the Company. They were nice to have around.

Favorite? Do you have a favorite Boy Scout?
Did you ever? I did. He made it to Egale Scout.

Lists. Humans make lists. I know they do.
I have seen it done. I have done it myself.

What is on your list, today?

Saints? Buying and selling Saints?
What Saint are you going to buy?
They have a Saint for everything.

Religion does not give God a way to Judge You.
Religion gives You a way to Judge You.

Oh yes. I will judge you, too.
I am a very nice whatever it is I am.

If I am in a foul mood, I might judge you by Your Religion.
If I am charmed by you, I might judge you by My Religion.

We all judge one another. We can not help it.
The Good Judge Themselves.
And; Are humbled by their own goodness.

I like to see people not let themselves down.
I liked that woman.

There are a few Assholes left in The World.
Where do you think little FBI and CIA and Homeland people come from?

They can't all be Gay. Can they?
Why would anyone care?

Gay; Not Gay;
Boy; Girl;
Can you build a Fire?

I am full of Stupid Stories.
I met a very smart young man.

He knew to the molciular level how fire works.
Like many Young Men, he liked fire.

So, smart. And; So, much trouble.
He could Not start a fire.

He wanted it done with Stone Age tools.
Fine. Yet; He could not do it. He wanted me to do it.

Fuck him. This is the 21st century.

Are the Boy Scouts allowed to go Outside?
What do you think 'they' might be like?

Take them one at a time and drop them.
What do they yell? Brovo? Mary? Fuck you?

Just asking.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:36 am UTC

sardia wrote:The bible has lots of contradictions, just pick what you like the most or w/e your peers do. Remember when the evangelists remade jesus into this hypermasculine figure? They completely skipped over the helping the needy part when it didn't suit their needs. Also the infamous slavery ok cause Bible says so example, or anything else you want. You hate environmental protection? Dominion over earth. Bam. You love the environment? Dominion over earth. Done. You want Jesus to be God, but not be god at the same time? Concept of the trinity, I pulled that out of my ass. Not even in the bible.

Claiming that there are contradictions is different than claiming Jesus preached a message that he explicitly did not preach.

Jesus preached sola scriptura before the New Testament was written? That's pretty impressive.

If you're responding to what I said, then I must not be communicating clearly enough (I'm not sure if you're responding to esoanem or not). To simplify: Jesus absolutely did not preach against the existence of dogma, he preached against twisting the wording of the laws to provide an "out" for obvious violations of the spirit of the law. If you weren't responding to what I said, then I apologize.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

No, I was responding to eSOANEM.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:48 pm UTC

To make a point, Jesus didn't preach that he was the son of god that was also god, and yet we still have the trinity in Catholicism. Jesus is a symbol, I can make Jesus preach anything I want, so can you. This includes the opposition or support of dogma.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:14 pm UTC

sardia wrote:To make a point, Jesus didn't preach that he was the son of god that was also god, and yet we still have the trinity in Catholicism. Jesus is a symbol, I can make Jesus preach anything I want, so can you. This includes the opposition or support of dogma.

I don't see how this follows.

Having Jesus be against the existence of dogma is almost on the level as having him be against the two commandments he gave, of loving god with your full heart and loving your neighbors as yourself. It is one of the major things he harped on the whole time, and his fire was against those perverting the meaning of the law in some attempt to..what, fool God? Ignore God and fool those around them? Self-delusion in any case.

You can usually get away with arguing that Jesus in the Bible was for or against birth control, for or against homosexuality, for or against giving oneself unto poverty, as these things honestly were not the focus of his ministry. The main reoccuring message he had, though, was that the people had neglected the soul of the law, and he had come to clarify it, similar to a prophet, but also to fulfill it. Painting the Biblical Jesus as somehow against dogma as a concept is...bizarre, to the level of painting him as preaching atheism. It is far, far beyond what you could shoehorn in with interpretations.

Also, clarification about the Trinity: while Jesus himself never explicitly stated "I am God" in so many words, they called his claim to be the son of God and be able to give forgiveness blasphemy for a reason, and there are plenty of claims by the writers of the New Testament (since Jesus didn't write it, natch') that lead to that view, and what controversy there was was ended rather early on in Christianity. It's not similar to people arguing his views on slavery or birth control today.

In any case: it's good that the Boy Scouts are finally starting to open up, here's hoping they complete it soon.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby addams » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:53 am UTC

sardia wrote:To make a point, Jesus didn't preach that he was the son of god that was also god, and yet we still have the trinity in Catholicism. Jesus is a symbol, I can make Jesus preach anything I want, so can you. This includes the opposition or support of dogma.

Great litttle movie: Dogma

I liked it.
Would Jesus like the Idea of having a 13th Boy Friend?
A Naked Black Man.

A sinner gives The Naked Black Man his coat.
What fun. That is Dogmatic, but I like it.

Of course, I do not want to live in a World with those Little Bastards and their Hockey Sticks.
It is all made up. Now; Is it Good to Follow the Example of BeetleJuice?

Right. The Star. Is it a star or a nebulla?
It is hard to keep up.

Jesus and his 13th Boy Friend. Nah.
Sounds bad. Sounds good, too.

Inside that Dogma is the Idea Heaven is unfolding At This Very Moment!
And; That guy is immortal. That guy is Loved and treasured by The Lord Jesus. And; That guy got on someone's nerves and SPLAT. He gets to go one a Road Trip. So, funny.

Jesus is in his Heaven and all may not be Right with The World.
Such a sweet Dogma. What do you think?

Saint Michelle and ArchAngel Michelle are not the Same Person. Are they?
They are Made Up! Just like SuperMan! How Dogmatic are the Boy Scouts?

Dogma! The offical Relition of My Pack.
oh. Next week we watch Rocky Horror.

That's not a Religion. It's, just, good clean fun.
Why should I care?

I care a little tiny bit. Because, I still like to do Boy Scout stuff.
I was never a Boy Scout. Can't be. Laundry List of reason.

On a good day, I can build a fire.
On a good day, I can get that stupid Knott right.

What else do Boy Scouts do?
Patches. Lots and lots of Patches.

You can buy those things. One line.
Buy yourself a bunch of Patches.

Humans Love that Shit.
Harley Riders. They get Patches.
Tough Guys. Patches and Pins.

The Harley Riders do not decrimanate. Do they?
Any Man or Woman with enough money to Play The Game is their Brother.

Boy Scouts has higher or lower standards?
Religion and Boy Scouts seems to go hand in hand.
Religion and Harley Oweners Group also go hand in hand.

Men's Clubs. Men's Clubs that allow select women in.
Now You explain it.

Men's clubs are not gay? In what way?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue May 07, 2013 7:01 pm UTC

Back on the subject of Boy Scouts, an anecdote: I was a bisexual* atheist Boy Scout in the 80s and 90s and I was very surprised to learn in the 2000s, when this controversy started hitting the news, that the Scouts were a homophobic Christian organization. I was out of touch with my old troop by the time I heard about this and so couldn't ask them their thoughts on it, so as far as I know maybe they were, but in either case the issue never came up because sex and religion weren't exactly topics of conversation. We were too busy camping and learning sciences and crafts and cool stuff like that. I doubt they knew about my orientation and (lack of) religion any more than I knew about their opinions on them.

*(Actually pansexual but close enough for our purposes here).
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