Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

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Роберт
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Роберт » Fri May 24, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:I was responding to Ormurinn, who said this difference between the two murders was the Woilwich incident was a terrorist act, implying the other one wasn't.

Well, we have less reason to believe the other was a terrorist act. It could have been. I'd need for evidence, though.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri May 24, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:I was responding to Ormurinn, who said this difference between the two murders was the Woilwich incident was a terrorist act, implying the other one wasn't.

Well, we have less reason to believe the other was a terrorist act. It could have been. I'd need for evidence, though.


Precisely, knowing intent is all about how clearly it's expressed. In this case, it's very clearly an act of terror. Ridiculously clearly so, in fact. I cannot imagine they thought anything other than the police showing up to take them away would occur. It was all about the publicity of the event.

Pretty gruesome, in any case. No doubt that was part of the bid for attention, but certainly, it doesn't make one more sympathetic to their cause. It seems to me that this sort of intimdation through violence isn't really that likely to work out as a strategic option. Most people instinctively react in horror, and aren't going to be that amenable to giving in to them.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby morriswalters » Fri May 24, 2013 8:08 pm UTC

It feeds fear. Every time the panic sets in people give up just a little more of their, well everything. Freedom primarily. Like horses, spook people and you can run them off a cliff. It's always something. These guys were by definition terrorists. The created terror and the act of yelling "God is Great" elevates it. But they aren't dangerous to any modern society. You understand dying in are car wreck. Terror attacks don't make you any more or less dead. You simply think it wasn't a random event like a car wreck. The thing you should fear is what you give up by spending time worrying about this.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 24, 2013 8:28 pm UTC

Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:I was responding to Ormurinn, who said this difference between the two murders was the Woilwich incident was a terrorist act, implying the other one wasn't.
No, he said the Woolwich incident was *definitely* a terrorist act, while we don't know enough to say the same of the other one.

Seriously, what is so hard about using the word "terrorism" to refer to this act? Especially if you're also insisting that the other act might be. Any conceivable terrorist-like characteristics of that murder are also present in the Woolwich case, though more explicitly and to a greater degree.

Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:there is no legal definition of what terrorism actually is
Yes, actually there is. And I can't see any way to squint hard enough at the Woolwich case to make it look like it doesn't qualify.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Rodion Raskolnikov » Fri May 24, 2013 8:59 pm UTC

I think you're putting an argument in my mouth. That may be a communication failure on my part, or a reading error on yours.

I'm not saying this wasn't an act of terror. (Nor did I insist the other murder was.) As shown by the fact I wasn't aware there was a legal definition of terrorism, I don't know enough to make a declaration either way. My issue was with people assuming they know the motives of those involved, and I was pretty uncomfortable with how quickly the media were calling it terrorism.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 24, 2013 9:06 pm UTC

Really? We can't guess the motives of people who sought out someone to record them saying why they were doing it?
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Роберт » Fri May 24, 2013 9:06 pm UTC

Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:I think you're putting an argument in my mouth. That may be a communication failure on my part, or a reading error on yours.

I'm not saying this wasn't an act of terror. (Nor did I insist the other murder was.) As shown by the fact I wasn't aware there was a legal definition of terrorism, I don't know enough to make a declaration either way. My issue was with people assuming they know the motives of those involved, and I was pretty uncomfortable with how quickly the media were calling it terrorism.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with you calling it "assuming" when we're merely relying on the statements given by the perpetrators of their own free will.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Rodion Raskolnikov » Fri May 24, 2013 9:11 pm UTC

I don't recall them saying anything about wanting to terrorise the entire nation, which is the one comment I'm referring to. Having looked at the legislation, I would agree their motive fit the bill of terrorism.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 24, 2013 9:18 pm UTC

Your post is the first we've heard anything about "entire nation".
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Alexius » Fri May 24, 2013 9:21 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote: I don't think there would have been a less global response if the "Woolwich soldier" had been BME either.

One of the soldiers murdered outside his barracks in Northern Ireland a few years ago might count as BME (he was half Turkish Cypriot). There was a fairly major response to that.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Rodion Raskolnikov » Fri May 24, 2013 9:25 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Your post is the first we've heard anything about "entire nation".


Yeah, I've just checked back and apparently I read Ormurinn's statement wrong. He said entire community, not nation. Which is a bit different, and possibly a fair assessment.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Steax » Sat May 25, 2013 2:22 am UTC

Question for those who follow the investigation: Has there been any indication that these attackers were part of a larger group / that future attacks could take place, or do things still point towards a couple of angry people who decided to do what they did independently?
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby addams » Sat May 25, 2013 3:15 am UTC

Aceo wrote:It's quite telling when this goes to international news but a pretty similar story doesn't.

It gets complicated.
This man may very well have been targeted because of his status as a member of a Them group.
If that is True. This is terrorism. It must be terrifying to his family and community.

Those other Assholes? They may be victims of the You Tube Generation/Attention Seekers.
And, they may be Way Way Off Balance. Stabbing in England? Really?

The way I knew England that stuff did not happen, much.
A stabbing once in a while. He usually had it coming and usually it wasn't too deep.

Two such violent and purposeful deaths so close together.
This is heart breaking. I am so sorry this is happening.

Now; What can be done to put a Stop to it?
England seemed to be such a safe and Peaceful place.

This is a strange War if it is a War at All.

oh. Treason is not a Capital Crime. Good.
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It seemed to make sense once upon a time

I had it explained to me.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Red Hal » Sat May 25, 2013 8:50 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, actually there is. And I can't see any way to squint hard enough at the Woolwich case to make it look like it doesn't qualify.
By that definition I'd have to, reluctantly, agree with you. My reluctance stems not from your argument which is sound, but from what I perceive as the creeping overuse of superlatives. I was not terrified by this, and I don't believe anyone who wasn't an actual witness was either. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with the use of terrorist in this context, since it would imply that we are too easily terrified. To be honest that was probably why I went to such lengths to argue that it wasn't a terror attack in the first place.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 25, 2013 10:01 am UTC

Steax wrote:Question for those who follow the investigation: Has there been any indication that these attackers were part of a larger group / that future attacks could take place, or do things still point towards a couple of angry people who decided to do what they did independently?


Not sure. I've cut down a BBC article to the below, in case it helps.

BBC News wrote:The two suspects are 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo, from Romford in east London, and 22-year-old Michael Adebowale, of Greenwich in south-east London.
[Adebolajo] used to associate with a group called al-Muhajiroun that was later banned by the home secretary on national security grounds. The BBC once filmed him in a crowd of men protesting outside a police station against counter-terrorism arrests.
Anjem Choudary, who used to lead the organisation, said that the suspect stopped associating with him in about 2010, although he could not be sure, and he had not seen him since.

The Metropolitan Police arrested three other people - a 29-year-old man, a 31-year-old woman, and a 29-year-old woman - on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. The two women were released without charge on Friday, but the man remains in custody at a south London police station
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat May 25, 2013 10:52 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Yes, actually there is. And I can't see any way to squint hard enough at the Woolwich case to make it look like it doesn't qualify.
By that definition I'd have to, reluctantly, agree with you. My reluctance stems not from your argument which is sound, but from what I perceive as the creeping overuse of superlatives. I was not terrified by this, and I don't believe anyone who wasn't an actual witness was either. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with the use of terrorist in this context, since it would imply that we are too easily terrified. To be honest that was probably why I went to such lengths to argue that it wasn't a terror attack in the first place.


Calling it terrorism implies that the act was meant to cause terror, regardless of whether terror was successfully caused or not. If someone shoots at you with the intent to kill you, but misses, it is still attempted murder, not simply reckless shooting (or whatever the correct term would be).

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Steax » Sun May 26, 2013 2:02 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Steax wrote:Question for those who follow the investigation: Has there been any indication that these attackers were part of a larger group / that future attacks could take place, or do things still point towards a couple of angry people who decided to do what they did independently?


Not sure. I've cut down a BBC article to the below, in case it helps.

BBC News wrote:The two suspects are 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo, from Romford in east London, and 22-year-old Michael Adebowale, of Greenwich in south-east London.
[Adebolajo] used to associate with a group called al-Muhajiroun that was later banned by the home secretary on national security grounds. The BBC once filmed him in a crowd of men protesting outside a police station against counter-terrorism arrests.
Anjem Choudary, who used to lead the organisation, said that the suspect stopped associating with him in about 2010, although he could not be sure, and he had not seen him since.

The Metropolitan Police arrested three other people - a 29-year-old man, a 31-year-old woman, and a 29-year-old woman - on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. The two women were released without charge on Friday, but the man remains in custody at a south London police station


That's interesting. So far it looks like it was a one-off attack, so at least everyone can calm down while the police do their thing.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby bigglesworth » Sun May 26, 2013 8:27 am UTC

Well, there has been a non-fatal stabbing of a French soldier in Paris, which might be a copy-cat attack (though most probably not related by any organisation).
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Aceo » Sun May 26, 2013 12:03 pm UTC

162 Islamophobic attacks in last few days. Including nine mosques, can this be terrorism?
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 26, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

Depends on the skin color of the people committing the crimes.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby BattleMoose » Sun May 26, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Aceo wrote:162 Islamophobic attacks in last few days. Including nine mosques, can this be terrorism?


There isn't a clear definition of terrorism but in my mind it should be linked to a political or ideological goal (that cannot be obtained through more conventional means).

These appear to be hate crimes. Which shouldn't be viewed as a demotion, they are absolutely awful. One can only hope that justice is done.

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Wouldn't it be nice if people could stop being violent to each other?

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Ormurinn » Sun May 26, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

Another stabbing a few metres from the site of Lee Rigby's death.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby addams » Sun May 26, 2013 11:01 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Another stabbing a few metres from the site of Lee Rigby's death.

Might as well put the link here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lwich.html

Such violent times.
Is it possible to change any part of that?

A soldier dies at Home.
I knew the sweetest British soldier.

I did not know his name.
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He was on his way to Afiganistan.

He wanted to Go Home.
We talked about his Home.
England.

We talked about Race.
He Loves some of those Indian People.

He wants to be a good husband and a good son to Dark skinned people.
He was such a great guy. He was not a Racist. Not at all.

When he comes Home will he and his family be safe?
Will he leave a War Zone and go home to a War Zone?

He and I both seemed to believe England is a Land of Peace and it was Getting Better.
What is going On?!


England please stop this. Don't hurt one another any more.
Please stop it. How? I don't know. Give everybody English Lessons?

Peace lessons? Who would write the Syllabus?
I Know England has people qualified to write the Syllabus.

I took a Continuing ed class for Five Days in London, once upon a time.
Admiral Nelson Days. Phew.

They pounded the Point home. Leadership is Important.
ok. ok. Leadership is Important. Fine.

Then I go back to the States and I am told, "The Leaders will go where The People lead them."

The Leaders of the area of Woolwich are needed. In the English way. To lead with Dignity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolwich#R ... evelopment

Not in the American way, "Whatever The People want to do."
The People need leadership? To? Where to Lead The People?

Peace is Really, Really hard. War is easier.
Peace is so preasous because it is so difficult.


Any people that has Peace is earning that Peace everyday.
It is easier for some people than for others.
There are barriers to Peace. Many.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Steax » Mon May 27, 2013 1:29 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
Aceo wrote:162 Islamophobic attacks in last few days. Including nine mosques, can this be terrorism?


There isn't a clear definition of terrorism but in my mind it should be linked to a political or ideological goal (that cannot be obtained through more conventional means).

These appear to be hate crimes. Which shouldn't be viewed as a demotion, they are absolutely awful. One can only hope that justice is done.

####

Wouldn't it be nice if people could stop being violent to each other?


Is terrorism and hate crime mutually exclusive?

I don't see an effective difference in the two deadly stabbing incidents. Provided that the Woolwich incident was an independent attack (i.e. not part of a larger/organized violence effort), then there's no practical nor security difference when person(s) A stabs person B to death, regardless of motivation. If anything, the previous attack (on the 75 year old man returning from a mosque) should be treated as a bigger threat to security, because (AFAIK) the culprits have not been caught.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby BattleMoose » Mon May 27, 2013 2:01 am UTC

Steax wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
Aceo wrote:162 Islamophobic attacks in last few days. Including nine mosques, can this be terrorism?


There isn't a clear definition of terrorism but in my mind it should be linked to a political or ideological goal (that cannot be obtained through more conventional means).

These appear to be hate crimes. Which shouldn't be viewed as a demotion, they are absolutely awful. One can only hope that justice is done.

####

Wouldn't it be nice if people could stop being violent to each other?


Is terrorism and hate crime mutually exclusive?


This is semantics and without an actual definition of terrorism I don't think we can definitively answer the question. The most we can do is take our personal perceptions of what "terrorism" is and apply that, which I did.

I don't see an effective difference in the two deadly stabbing incidents. Provided that the Woolwich incident was an independent attack (i.e. not part of a larger/organized violence effort), then there's no practical nor security difference when person(s) A stabs person B to death, regardless of motivation.


I think independent attacks can still be terrorism. But motivation is where the issues are. The Woolwich incident sends the following message:
1. British military operations overseas are not accepted
2. British military personal at home are not safe
3. Brings attention to British foreign policy and that there are groups who are, violently opposed to it

Attacking a random Muslim sends different messages:
1. The Muslim culture is not accepted
2. Muslim people are not welcome in the UK
3. The UK Muslim community is being blamed for the Woolwich incident

I actually think, the hate crime of violence on Muslim people is actually a worse crime than the Woolwich incident, precisely because of the motivation and the messages that are sent with it.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Steax » Mon May 27, 2013 2:07 am UTC

There is:

gmalivuk wrote:
Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:there is no legal definition of what terrorism actually is
Yes, actually there is. And I can't see any way to squint hard enough at the Woolwich case to make it look like it doesn't qualify.


I don't think it's semantics - the media itself seems to enjoy separating "hate crime" (which invokes images of people being shunned in society) and "terrorism" (which invokes images of 9/11 and Afghanistan). I think that there shouldn't really be a difference in how the two are handled (i.e. the security implications, not the punishment); that decision should be based on who did it, if it's going to happen again, and how likely more damage could be done.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby BattleMoose » Mon May 27, 2013 2:33 am UTC

Steax wrote:There is:

gmalivuk wrote:
Rodion Raskolnikov wrote:there is no legal definition of what terrorism actually is
Yes, actually there is. And I can't see any way to squint hard enough at the Woolwich case to make it look like it doesn't qualify.


I don't think it's semantics - the media itself seems to enjoy separating "hate crime" (which invokes images of people being shunned in society) and "terrorism" (which invokes images of 9/11 and Afghanistan). I think that there shouldn't really be a difference in how the two are handled; that decision should be based on who did it, if it's going to happen again, and how likely more damage could be done.


Oh right so there is.

Its pretty clear that the Woolwich incident qualifies. If you want to argue that attacking random Muslim people as terrorism, then it needs to satisfy the following. My interpretation is that it doesn't. And I wouldn't trust the media on anything.

the use or threat is designed to influence the government [or an international governmental organisation] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and


the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.


Personally I think hate crimes are worse that terrorism. (For the same amount of violence)

Why is it so important that these hate crimes be considered terrorism?

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Steax » Mon May 27, 2013 3:14 am UTC

I'm not suggesting that they should be considered terrorism. I'm just wondering why the distinction matters - one terrorism case brings headlines and mourning, hundreds of hate attacks (including murders) go unnoticed. (Of course it's media bias. It shouldn't be that way.)
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby BattleMoose » Mon May 27, 2013 3:23 am UTC

Steax wrote:I'm not suggesting that they should be considered terrorism. I'm just wondering why the distinction matters - one terrorism case brings headlines and mourning, hundreds of hate attacks (including murders) go unnoticed. (Of course it's media bias. It shouldn't be that way.)


They have different motivations and I tried to argue that they have different consequences also. Thus they are treated differently.

As for the media, well, I guess they do what they do to make money. And stories about hate crimes on Muslim minorities apparently don't sell and/or outrage the British public. It shouldn't be this way but that's a bit like asking politely that jerks not be jerks.

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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby addams » Mon May 27, 2013 5:06 am UTC

Steax wrote:I'm not suggesting that they should be considered terrorism. I'm just wondering why the distinction matters - one terrorism case brings headlines and mourning, hundreds of hate attacks (including murders) go unnoticed. (Of course it's media bias. It shouldn't be that way.)


Do I agree with you? It could happen.
What you seem to be suggesting is that the label Terrorism incites violence.

Or; Is it that one person's death has greater weight, because the crime is labeled Terror?
That is wrong.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 27, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

Theres been a spate of superficially islamic-motivated vandalism at war memorials across London, which may be connected.
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Bad Hair Man » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:01 pm UTC

So when an attack is motivated by anger at a large group, but the attacker can only strike at a small part of that group, is it terrorism when the attacked group is a majority, but a hate crime when the attacked group is a minority?

When the police arrest someone for violating a criminal statute, that person is a (suspected) criminal, and when the military captures and holds a person as part of their military operations that person is a prisoner of war? So the people who perpetrated the event this thread is about are criminals because it was the police's job to take them into custody, not the military's. I don't think anyone will argue that that was not the police's job. But will someone try to argue that it is the police's job to take prisoners of war?
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Ormurinn
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Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

Bad Hair Man wrote:So when an attack is motivated by anger at a large group, but the attacker can only strike at a small part of that group, is it terrorism when the attacked group is a majority, but a hate crime when the attacked group is a minority?

When the police arrest someone for violating a criminal statute, that person is a (suspected) criminal, and when the military captures and holds a person as part of their military operations that person is a prisoner of war? So the people who perpetrated the event this thread is about are criminals because it was the police's job to take them into custody, not the military's. I don't think anyone will argue that that was not the police's job. But will someone try to argue that it is the police's job to take prisoners of war?


You've got it backwards. In order to qualify for prisoner of war status, the captive needs to have conformed to certain standards of conduct. They werent followed in this case, thus the prisoners do not get prisoner of war status. It has nothing to do with whether the offender is taken into custody by civil or military authorities.

The legal definition of terrorism was posted earlier in the thread. It has nothing to do with minority or majority status of the agressed-against group.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

BattleMoose
Posts: 1993
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:42 am UTC

Re: Man Beheaded in Woolwich Terror Attack

Postby BattleMoose » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:45 am UTC

Ormurinn wrote:The legal definition of terrorism was posted earlier in the thread. It has nothing to do with minority or majority status of the agressed-against group.


Similarly for hate crimes.


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