AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:51 am UTC

http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/f ... abandoned/

It's important people become more aware to the outrageous false advertising of these "modernized" (or so Dubai likes to claim, even though the airline company's employees need to be married and may not exit in Dubai unaccompanied by a male) nations to swallow up western tourism money while jailing and torturing these very people under their fundamentalist laws.

A woman can only seek conviction on rape charges in this zone if there are four Muslim (and only Muslim) men who have witnessed the act and are prepared to declare that the sex was not consensual in their view (the woman's view is irrelevant under the Sharia law she was being tried under).
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
styrofoam
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 3:28 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby styrofoam » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

AAAAAAAAHHHHHGGGGGGGG!!!!!
aadams wrote:I am a very nice whatever it is I am.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:A woman can only seek conviction on rape charges in this zone if there are four Muslim (and only Muslim) men who have witnessed the act and are prepared to declare that the sex was not consensual in their view (the woman's view is irrelevant under the Sharia law she was being tried under).


False.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Diadem » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:False.

Useless.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:42 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Lucrece wrote:A woman can only seek conviction on rape charges in this zone if there are four Muslim (and only Muslim) men who have witnessed the act and are prepared to declare that the sex was not consensual in their view (the woman's view is irrelevant under the Sharia law she was being tried under).


False.


Explain.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Zamfir » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:46 pm UTC

EXTERMINATE

Aceo
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:33 pm UTC
Location: Hull, Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Aceo » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:24 pm UTC

According to this it's true, pending on whether it's source material is valid.
GENERATION 19: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:23 pm UTC

Aceo wrote:According to this it's true, pending on whether it's source material is valid.


It's true if you want the most severe punishment for adultery. But there are weaker punishments that do not require it.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:40 am UTC

Aceo wrote:According to this it's true, pending on whether it's source material is valid.


Its pretty clear that its heavily slanted against islam. Not that I'm defending sharia when it comes to rape, but this is not nearly a neutral source.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:09 am UTC

Biased doesn't necessarily mean incorrect though, and the article linked the OP mentions the same, and the only counter-argument was argument-free.

The whole story is a bit light on citations anyway...
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:24 am UTC

Yeah, obviously she embellished her own rape and imprisonment so she could go on a crusade against Islam and give progressive blogs a case study for the evils of islamophobia/christophobia (whatever made up term they invent to label people who viciously recoil against philosophies which HAVE caused great harm to many people). It's unthinkable that religion wouldn't need help from anybody to make itself look bad.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

elasto
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby elasto » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:26 am UTC

What I find odd about the story, assuming it's true, is the weak reaction from the Australian government. One would think they'd be protesting and intervening more strongly.

Perhaps they did though and the UK/US media didn't cover it due to how parochial we can be.

User avatar
yurell
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:19 am UTC
Location: Australia!

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby yurell » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:56 am UTC

Aren't theocracies / religious 'moral' laws just wonderful?

The story is true btw elasto, but it is also a little old. Not that the Australian government gave a damn at the time, either — we don't like to point out when our 'friends' have blatantly immoral laws.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:55 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Biased doesn't necessarily mean incorrect though, and the article linked the OP mentions the same, and the only counter-argument was argument-free.


Well, here's something that's biased in the other direction.

http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/9484/ ... quirement/

So, the claim here is that a sharia court should properly deal with rape as hiraba = [highway robbery | terrorism | promoting terror] or fitnah = toture, rather than under zina = [adultery | sex outside of marriage].

I agree that its morally wrong that you can't go to the police in an islamic country and say "I had sex with that man without my consent, arrest that man" and be sure that you won't end up in jail. But, blaming that on islam, rather than the culture of sexism that is dignified by reference to islam, is also wrong.

I mean, if you look at my link, there's this story:
Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “stone him to death.”


Conrast that with jesus' "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Why aren't we blaming this on a lack of church state separation? Because its easy to blame a religion we don't like and don't understand.

@Lucrece: thanks for reminding me I'm in N&A.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

User avatar
Vash
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:14 pm UTC
Location: The planet Gunsmoke

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Vash » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:45 am UTC

I don't really have anything unique to add. It's just so clearly horrible.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

Yeah, we don't understand religion. The true religions are how people in western, secularized societies practice them. It's the sexism in the culture, not a cultural sexism fostered by religious tradition.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Game_boy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:31 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:The true religions are how people in western, secularized societies practice them.


You can't separate them like that. Both believe they are practising the 'true' religion, and as with say Catholic vs Protestant, both are correct in the absence of evidence either way. In those countries, Islam IS the culture.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

I think Lucrece was being sarcastic.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:I mean, if you look at my link, there's this story:
Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “stone him to death.”


It's still pretty fucked up to describe being raped as needing forgiveness.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:03 am UTC

That link is typical theologist lawyering anyways. Pay attention how it acknowledges the position of Islamic scholars and how it's actually applied in most of those countries, but she has the one correct interpretation of the Islamic text as she cherrypicks the convenient, good PR parts. And what arguments she picks isn't even pertaining to rape itself, but merely manipulating legal definitions for covering a raped woman's circumstances since that legal system has no actual specific category for rape.

Christian Evangelicals and Baptists do the same. You no doubt see the same sophistry from Catholics' natural law arguments. Eastern Europe has its Christian Orthodox movements with heavy ties to white supremacist/nationalist movements fueled by traditionalist doctrine.

Jews are the least worst of the three, but Israel offers little recognition for non-religious social contracts or law -- its laws are completely inconsiderate to the non-religious. And their political movements go quite the distance of emphasizing their religious heritage in their spheres of life and government.

Religions only behave nicely to those outside their faction only when they are forced to by secular forces. They don't have a history of respecting the liberties or choices of those they disapprove of.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:20 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Why aren't we blaming this on a lack of church state separation?


Worth noting that other dominant-Muslim countries that did decide on some church/state separation - Malaysia uses English Common Law, Indonesia is secular from the constitution, Turkey has been secular for a while now - do tend to have sensible laws regarding rape. (And yes, all 3 of those countries, and probably more if you dig them up, don't completely separate between church and state, but they don't typically try to use religious rules in law enforcement. You'll find extreme cases and outliers, of course.)
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

User avatar
jules.LT
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:20 pm UTC
Location: Paris, France, Europe

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:53 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:blaming that on islam, rather than the culture of sexism that is dignified by reference to islam, is also wrong.

Religions can't be considered independently from how they are practiced.
How some people wish it was practiced is irrelevant to the judgement we pass on it.
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

User avatar
dudiobugtron
Posts: 1098
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:14 am UTC
Location: The Outlier

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby dudiobugtron » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:19 pm UTC

jules.LT wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:blaming that on islam, rather than the culture of sexism that is dignified by reference to islam, is also wrong.

Religions can't be considered independently from how they are practiced.
How some people wish it was practiced is irrelevant to the judgement we pass on it.

True, perhaps, but since different people practice them differently, by the same taken we can't just lump everyone in together.
Image

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:43 am UTC

Regarding the religious story above, I'm not clear on the context since I'm not muslim, but perhaps he was giving her general forgiveness rather than "forgiveness for being raped"? In cristianity, at least, I could see an apostle granting them total forgiveness for all sins in response to their suffering.

Any muslims here able to shed light on this?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:08 am UTC

dudiobugtron wrote:
jules.LT wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:blaming that on islam, rather than the culture of sexism that is dignified by reference to islam, is also wrong.

Religions can't be considered independently from how they are practiced.
How some people wish it was practiced is irrelevant to the judgement we pass on it.

True, perhaps, but since different people practice them differently, by the same taken we can't just lump everyone in together.


So, we can say that because every court treats a young black male differently, then we can't say that the justice system marginalizes young black males because that would be "lumping them together"?

You don't look at just individual cases. You look at the proportion.

And I can tell you that in the proportion of Islam, religious festivals across the world stick the women in their homes while the men get to go out and march -- an pity the foolish woman who would try to walk in, or in most mosques where women are not allowed to pray alongside men.

Now take that with Christianity and gay people, where maybe a handful of small churches like United Church of Christ might be gay friendly in theology, but how the religion is practiced by a very large proportion of people, if not a crushing majority, shows deep prejudice and an enduring track record of oppression.

If we are going to take religions how they're practice in well off western, secularized countries as somehow a representative sample of what the religion does all over the world, it's just a sham. You look at how this mythology has impacted the world all over, and not just how it behaves NOW on some enlightened countries who had to go through a bloody history of struggle against dogma to marginalize religious encroachment on every day life.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:45 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Regarding the religious story above, I'm not clear on the context since I'm not muslim, but perhaps he was giving her general forgiveness rather than "forgiveness for being raped"? In cristianity, at least, I could see an apostle granting them total forgiveness for all sins in response to their suffering.

Any muslims here able to shed light on this?


More or less. As of my (limited) understanding, the term used is "you are forgiven for what happened to you", as in "it won't be counted as a sin, so don't feel guilty and carry on".

I do not speak the language, or study the terminology, however.

Lucrece wrote:And I can tell you that in the proportion of Islam, religious festivals across the world stick the women in their homes while the men get to go out and march -- an pity the foolish woman who would try to walk in, or in most mosques where women are not allowed to pray alongside men.


I live in a country with 11% of the world's muslims, and I can tell you that's not true. There isn't one "religious festival" where women are stuck in their own houses. Mosques gender separation is more debatable, but for the most part it's convenience: the 'formation' as it is has men and women separate, and the separation allows men to file in front of the women. (The reason for this is because one is required to "wash their hands" after touching someone of the opposite sex that isn't a relative; this isn't because they're dirty in some way, but was used back then to tell people not to (literally) touch people they aren't related with; as in, to avoid harassment and stuff. The separation, therefore, prevents people from bumping into each other. Sure, you can debate if that policy is even relevant, but it's not directly separation because men are higher than the women or something.) There is no sort of difference in behavior; everyone then exists the same way and blends together outside. In households, everyone prays together. And (at least amongst the liberals), anyone may join the ranks of any gender they associate themselves with.

I'm not saying they're all holy and true, but if you're going to say "I can tell you", I can say what it's really like, on the ground, where a large population of Muslims are.
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

Ah, so this policy about separation has nothing to do with the dirtiness of interacting with the opposite sex, just to teach people to not touch strangers? Because it seems like the nuance here doesn't support that claim. Why is the restriction enforced only between people of the opposite sex? What is the suggestion here?

The practice is not innocuous. There is a reason why the religious leaders are overwhelmingly men. Compare male/female representation in secular settings vs. settings where religious traditions run more staunchly?

Yes, in many cases the prejudice is not originated from the religion (but in many cases it is), but the problem with religion is that challenging something supposedly mandated by God himself is much more difficult than challenging a social structure mandated by your equals. The undertones to religious practice have these ugly attachments to the concept of submission to a "higher power", a higher power which hasn't made himself directly available to us yet we raise generations based on what HP's messengers tell us about what HP wants. And HP, despite not having made himself obvious to us, seems to carry more credibility than actual experts whom we can confront and challenge.

Be it the Christian "Lord" and the "kingdom of heaven", or Allah (whom you must give tribute to several times a day). And under this crap, minorities have languished. Religion is an incredible tool for social control.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10187
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby addams » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:45 pm UTC

Steax wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Regarding the religious story above, I'm not clear on the context since I'm not muslim, but perhaps he was giving her general forgiveness rather than "forgiveness for being raped"? In cristianity, at least, I could see an apostle granting them total forgiveness for all sins in response to their suffering.

Any muslims here able to shed light on this?


More or less. As of my (limited) understanding, the term used is "you are forgiven for what happened to you", as in "it won't be counted as a sin, so don't feel guilty and carry on".

I do not speak the language, or study the terminology, however.

Lucrece wrote:And I can tell you that in the proportion of Islam, religious festivals across the world stick the women in their homes while the men get to go out and march -- an pity the foolish woman who would try to walk in, or in most mosques where women are not allowed to pray alongside men.


I live in a country with 11% of the world's muslims, and I can tell you that's not true. There isn't one "religious festival" where women are stuck in their own houses. Mosques gender separation is more debatable, but for the most part it's convenience: the 'formation' as it is has men and women separate, and the separation allows men to file in front of the women. (The reason for this is because one is required to "wash their hands" after touching someone of the opposite sex that isn't a relative; this isn't because they're dirty in some way, but was used back then to tell people not to (literally) touch people they aren't related with; as in, to avoid harassment and stuff. The separation, therefore, prevents people from bumping into each other. Sure, you can debate if that policy is even relevant, but it's not directly separation because men are higher than the women or something.) There is no sort of difference in behavior; everyone then exists the same way and blends together outside. In households, everyone prays together. And (at least amongst the liberals), anyone may join the ranks of any gender they associate themselves with.

I'm not saying they're all holy and true, but if you're going to say "I can tell you", I can say what it's really like, on the ground, where a large population of Muslims are.

Yes. I think that is well stated.
In my limited understanding some, I see it as many, of our Religious traditions come from Interactions with Infections.

Only Men can touch Men and Only Women can touch Women.
Jeeze. How long has That been with us?

Wash Your Hands! The Eternal Cry of Those that Love The Lord.
What God do You Love? The One that keeps us well?

There was a Time before the Internet. During that Time, The People would gather together.
When The Times were Difficult, The People would, sometimes, turn to a Man in a Dress.
Sometimes They would turn to a Woman in a Dress. Dresses were Important to People.

Well; What does your Religion insist upon?
Have you ever noticed? No matter what the Religion;
At some point there is the, "GO Clean Yourself Up!"

Yes. I Know. In some Religions a person must go get dirty, first.
That is beside the Point. You people are Talking Religion?

What do Those Other People Do In Their Churches?
Have you ever been invited? I have not. Never.

I have talked to other people that were invited.
She said they Prayed with a Sing-Song beat.

She could copy the sound. I have heard that sound recorded.
It can't be much different from Listening to a bunch of Catholics Read their Creed.
Can it?

All the Other stuff can be fun. What does everyone Wear?
The first time I was in a Catholic Church, Females were Required to cover their Heads.

Men Had to Take Off their Hats. It was a Strange World and it Still IS!
By dressing and behaving in Reasonable and Predictable ways Many, Many people can enjoy the Canoodling.

The Tradition may have begun as a Wash Your Hands and Do Not Touch Another Person Until After (X).
These Traditions go back a long time. Most Religions require us to Wash Our Hands.

California Law and Good Sense Require You to Wash Your Hands.

Can You Legislate Religion? I don't know.

What are You telling people?
Those dangled dawg Islamics Wash Their Hands.

Don't be Islamic? How?
Be Dirty? It is Your Right?

Well; What do Islamic People do?
They do some weird stuff.

I was told they Throw Rocks at a Pillar.
They will Travel half way around the world to Throw Rocks at a Rock.

If it is True, it is silly,
If it is True, it is weird.
If it is True, I want to do it.

See? That is the Problem with Religion.
Religion is like the Deserts or Fruit or Some other Wonderful Thing.

How could a person only try one kind?
Well; One is enough for some people.
One is Too Many for some people.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:10 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Ah, so this policy about separation has nothing to do with the dirtiness of interacting with the opposite sex, just to teach people to not touch strangers? Because it seems like the nuance here doesn't support that claim. Why is the restriction enforced only between people of the opposite sex? What is the suggestion here?


No idea. Adultery, maybe? My nuance of the understanding (both from observing the local society and from how people talk about their religious text) is that men and women are equal for all intents and purposes (everyone goes to the same hell, everyone gets judged similarly, yada yada). You'll have to dig up the old context to figure out why. I don't like the rule, either, and I know a lot of people don't. It also swings both ways; there are people who just disregard it, and there are people who will wash their hands after touching anything (usually just because they're afraid what they touched had fecal matter or something on them).

Again, I'm no expert. I'm just pointing out that it's not some sort of social segregation.

Lucrece wrote:The practice is not innocuous. There is a reason why the religious leaders are overwhelmingly men. Compare male/female representation in secular settings vs. settings where religious traditions run more staunchly?


Indonesia's had a female president. Pakistan's had a female prime minister. Bangladesh has had a female prime minister.

The other side of the world isn't that bad, you know.

Lucrece wrote:Yes, in many cases the prejudice is not originated from the religion (but in many cases it is), but the problem with religion is that challenging something supposedly mandated by God himself is much more difficult than challenging a social structure mandated by your equals. The undertones to religious practice have these ugly attachments to the concept of submission to a "higher power", a higher power which hasn't made himself directly available to us yet we raise generations based on what HP's messengers tell us about what HP wants. And HP, despite not having made himself obvious to us, seems to carry more credibility than actual experts whom we can confront and challenge.

Be it the Christian "Lord" and the "kingdom of heaven", or Allah (whom you must give tribute to several times a day). And under this crap, minorities have languished. Religion is an incredible tool for social control.


What are you ranting on about? I'm not saying current religious governments are a holy pot of awesome and role model for societies everywhere. I was just pointing out your misconceptions.
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:48 am UTC

Are you seriously suggesting that because Pakistan had a female prime minister (who was murdered), that life in Pakistan is comparable to life in the West for women? Because I've been in Turkey for a while, arguably the "best" and most secular muslim nation besides Lebanon, and it sure as hell isn't the peachy egalitarian shade you're trying to paint it with. Better than fucking Algeria, no doubt, but for female and gay empowerment it's certainly bad compared to secular counterparts.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
Steax
SecondTalon's Goon Squad
Posts: 3038
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Steax » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:54 am UTC

Did I say it was as good as the west? Of couuuurse sexism exists and it's not a happy life of equality for everyone.

I was refuting your specific statements above about "across the world" "religious festivals" "where women are forced to stay at home" or the suggestion that the separation at mosques indicate social segregation. Refuting them with on-the-ground observations of how things happen at a country with a sizeable portion of the world's muslims.

It's not great, but it's not as bad as you suggest it is.
In Minecraft, I use the username Rirez.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:50 am UTC

It's not mere sexism as you would suggest. It's sexism and homophobia that is systemic and socially bred by religiosity. Your anecdote of the 11% is dandy, but it certainly isn't the case for the majority of muslim women and gay men.

Sexism/homophobia by itself is bad -- sexism and homophobia integrated into religious tradition is a whole other level of worse. And the Abrahamic traditions have contributed heavily to this tradition.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:20 am UTC

Are there currently any long-lived major religions that don't have ingrained sexism of some form?


By long-lived, I mean old enough that my grandpa can't say "Nope. Nuh-uh, didn't happen".

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10187
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby addams » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:55 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Are there currently any long-lived major religions that don't have ingrained sexism of some form?


By long-lived, I mean old enough that my grandpa can't say "Nope. Nuh-uh, didn't happen".

Nope. None.
None that I know of and I know of a few.

That does not mean that the Religions and Traditions are Wrong.
It means that we are Human and Humans notice little things like...oh I don't know.. What?

Women Bleed. There have been very few cultures that did not have that Knowledge.
Women's bodies go through some amazing changes and Out Pop more Humans.

What may look like Oppression in The 21st century may have been a Blessing before OB/GYN's.

Keeping some of the Traditions does not hurt us.
For Humans to dress modestly is not Wrong.
For Women to have time with Other Women is not Wrong.

Yes. It is true. There have been times when 'some' women were oppressed.
In Church a Woman was free from The Asshole Master, whoever he happened to be for an Hour or Two.

Some Religions required a Woman to Remove herself from the Rest of the Community while she was bleeding.
I can not prove it. But; The Rumor is that in some of those Communities, The Cabin was like a welcome vacation.

A woman would go to The Cabin. She could sleep in. The Other women checked on her and brought her food.
If she needed pain relief the other women would do what they could. No, TV. No, Internet. She was not being punished.
The other women could come and sit and talk. Walks in the surrounding area were fine. But; She was not allowed to serve her husband.
That ding-dong had to figure it out for a few days on his own.

Many of the prescribed Traditions had a usefulness.
Those Traditions are not Life and Death issues, now.

The washing of the Hands is Still so very useful.
I Know Americans with Dr. stuck on their names that fight washing their hands, today!

Of Course! We have to tell them God or Someone will 'get' them.
People will do what is Right for God when they will not do it for their fellow man.

Washing and being Clean is That important!
It is not All about being clean. Clean sure helps with other stuff.

What Religion can you think of that does not acknowledge male and female as different?
I Remember the first Female Priest I ever met. She was Good.

Yes. That is not fair and it is so very useful.
Women do need to work harder and be better.

It took me by surprise. I first saw her when she was on a panel answering questions.
She was The Best one. See? Because she is a woman she 'Knew' the answers better than the others.
Not because she has XX. But, because she studied and she Cared! Her faith and her Religious Community were Important to her.

She understood some complex ideas and she understood some simple ideas.
I went to her Church to listen to her. The lecture she gave was touching.

She spoke of Community. She said, "When I am Strong, I carry others. When I am weak, Others carry me."
The woman had me in tears. Yes. The collar on a Woman was a little shocking to me. I grew to Like it.

Will the Churches of Islam ever have Women do the Eucharist? Most likely, 'No.' They don't do Eucharist.

The gay thing is still a bit of a problem. That is getting better all the time.
Yes. Some of our Churches preach 'No Gays' and 'God does not Love Gays."

It does not take a Church for That kind of talk and walk to get off the ground.
Churches change slowly. That is Good. Because we need stability.

There is nothing unstable about our Gay people. Well; Not all of them.
The rates of Stable are just as high for Gay people as Straight people.

Yes. Some Islamic sects must be a slice of Hell. Not just for the women, but for everyone.
For most that is not true. Religion is intimate and personal and we want to Share It.

The traditions are something to be Proud of.

An Example: Europeans used to bring evergreens into the Living Quarters and decorate them with candles.
Many a fire that killed many a family right down to the dog were started that way.

We don't do that any more. We have safe electric lights.
The Christmas Tree does have special meaning in nearly every home.
Few are pagans. Religion is Funny stuff.

Just for fun, Talk to a shallow Christian about the Tree.
What does that have to do with Christ? Nothing.
The Christians do get Upset. Of course, The Tree is Christian!

No Honey; It's not. But you can use it. We don't mind.

I love the subject of Religion.
Yes. We can type about many, many times Religions have failed the people.
Yes. We can type about many, many time People have failed their Religions.

No Religion is perfect. No person is perfect.

World Peace. Remember?
World Peace. A moment in Time when we can hold hands and be proud of ourselves and each other.

I have heard many people describe God as a parent.
How proud would a parent be to have its children living in Peace.

When we fight and hurt one another it is enough to make a God cry.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

BeerBottle
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:26 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby BeerBottle » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:16 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:It's not mere sexism as you would suggest. It's sexism and homophobia that is systemic and socially bred by religiosity. Your anecdote of the 11% is dandy, but it certainly isn't the case for the majority of muslim women and gay men.

Sexism/homophobia by itself is bad -- sexism and homophobia integrated into religious tradition is a whole other level of worse. And the Abrahamic traditions have contributed heavily to this tradition.
How much of this is to do with development rather than religion? Go back 100 odd years and you could say most/all of these things about women in many western countries. Maybe this was religion's fault too. We all know that democracy is the least worst form of government. While it is easy to point out the flaws in religion (which is a worthwhile activity by the way), something that is rarely acknowledged is that 20th century attempts to remove religion from society entirely didn't quite lead to the promised utopian dreamlands.

Most muslims live in a democracy.

Most muslims live in a democracy that has elected a woman as head of government (do you?). Lucrece, you mention Bhutto's assassination as if it is a mark against her being elected? Do you consider JFK and Lincoln as less worthy of being called presidents because they were murdered?

Yes muslims democracies are flawed and emerging and fragile and have a long way to go. It is easy to point out deficiencies, and it is worthwhile to do so. But the attitude that all of this is the fault of Islam and that Islam must be removed before society can progress is mistaken. To hold up examples of the emirates as representative of all muslim societies is not tenable, and given the current world situation, can be a dangerous game.

elasto
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby elasto » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:22 am UTC

Exactly. Remove religion and there'd still most likely be conflict and warfare. Remove poverty and illiteracy, empower women to control their own fertility and grow a vocal educated, consumerist middle class and you've got a far better shot, even if you keep religion.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

But if the religion has polygyny enshrined, that is much harder to accomplish. You are basically manufacturing an underclass of unwanted men in order for the leaders to have the steady supply of wives. Keeping women powerless helps force them into marriage with the rich men. Women are married off as soon as they hit puberty in order to prevent them from knowing a relationship outside of that to the guys at the top.

At least that's how the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints is run. Seriously, screw them.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:So, we can say that because every court treats a young black male differently, then we can't say that the justice system marginalizes young black males because that would be "lumping them together"?

YEAH! Black people were doing fine until that damn justice system came along. The only way for black people to achieve equality is by ABOLISHING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Lucrece, you should write brochures for a nudist colony
1) Humans have always been sexist.
2) Humans have always worn clothes.
3) ALL CLOTHES ARE SEXIST!!!

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7357
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:54 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Sexism/homophobia by itself is bad -- sexism and homophobia integrated into religious tradition is a whole other level of worse. And the Abrahamic traditions have contributed heavily to this tradition.
I often find myself struggling with a sort of chicken-and-the-egg thing on this point. Does 'negative' religion increase the presence of sexism and homophobia in a society? Or does sexism and homophobia increase the presence of 'negative' religion in a society?

There was a lecture I watched recently; Jerry Coyne, a professor of Ecology and Evolution talking about why evolution is true and why most people (in the States) still don't believe it. The last fifteen minutes are interesting, if kind of a rehash: Religion is the reason evolution isn't accepted, but religion itself isn't the problem. A strong presence of fundamentalism correlates closely with a crappy social net (Sweden and Holland have excellent social nets; they also have very few fundamentalists!).

I guess my overarching point here is just that there's a trap we fall into when we make religion into the bad guy. Social dysfunction is the bad guy; religion is just one of the ways we deal with social dysfunction (not that religion itself can't contribute to social dysfunction!). I strongly suspect that if the situation were better for people overall -- if there were stronger social safety nets, less poverty, better healthcare, better education, so on -- we'd see a pretty dramatic decrease on the damage religion does to a society.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: AU Woman raped in Emirates, Jailed for Reporting

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:36 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I guess my overarching point here is just that there's a trap we fall into when we make religion into the bad guy. Social dysfunction is the bad guy; religion is just one of the ways we deal with social dysfunction (not that religion itself can't contribute to social dysfunction!). I strongly suspect that if the situation were better for people overall -- if there were stronger social safety nets, less poverty, better healthcare, better education, so on -- we'd see a pretty dramatic decrease on the damage religion does to a society.


I'm going to agree for slightly different albeit related reasons. Social dysfunction is how religions, especially cults, are able to recruit. Just lost your job, your husband left you alone with 2 kids, or are you addicted to drugs? You are the target. Without the desperation of poverty and other problems, cults would have a much harder time recruiting.

One of my professors is an ex-Witness, and the stuff he described in their recruiting/retaining processes is more horrifying than any horror movie, if only because it's real and happening as we speak.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests