Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

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Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:20 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794


So... long story short. Many Egyptians are upset with Mohamed Morsi, the first democratically elected Egyptian President.

Massive protests broke out several days ago, demanding that the Constitution be revised and that Morsi collaborate with the opposition or step down entirely.

Morsi resisted these charger.

Two days ago, the Supreme Command of the Egyptian Military gave Morsi an ultimatum: negotiate with the opposition or they would take measures to carve a new path for the country's future, commonly construed to mean they would oust him from power.

Morsi refused, citing his democratic election as legitimacy and denouncing the military for their threat. He attempted to enter into negotiations at the last minute, but was rejected by his liberal opposition. Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood has said it's reporters are willing to die to support him, and Morsi said he'd rather die than cede power.

The Egyptian military has announced that they have ousted Morsi from the position and suspended the constitution, appointing an interim council in his place. Tahrir Square has erupted in celebration.

What do you think about this? On one hand, legally, this is a military coup of a democratically elected president. On the other, it appears to have popular (majority?) support.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:27 pm UTC

Wasn't the Muslim Brotherhood openly trying to turn Egypt into a theocracy? It's pretty hard to be worse than a guy trying to create a theocracy.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:43 pm UTC

Let's see. Lawfully elected. Taken out by a coup. Gee where have I seen this before? Would you ever wish to see troops striding down Pennsylvania Ave deposing a sitting President. I'm not Egyptian, but that's what, 3 governments in less than 3 years. Two by coup. Smell the fires from Syria? Hopefully this won't end up in Civil War.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby yedidyak » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:50 pm UTC

I feel that if 22 million people (allegedly, probably less, but millions) sign a petition against a president, and upwards of 10 or 15 million protest for his resignation on cue, then the democratic thing to do is to at least negotiate. But the Muslim Brotherhood government has not acted democratically in many other ways, despite being elected.

It's a weird situation. There was an openly planned popular revolution on a scheduled date, against a democratically elected government. Followed by an openly planned military coup again on an announced date. I can't think of any other time when a revolution or coup was so open.

Above all, it shows the sheer impotence of officials when deserted by the police and army.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:52 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Let's see. Lawfully elected. Taken out by a coup. Gee where have I seen this before? Would you ever wish to see troops striding down Pennsylvania Ave deposing a sitting President. I'm not Egyptian, but that's what, 3 governments in less than 3 years. Two by coup. Smell the fires from Syria? Hopefully this won't end up in Civil War.


That's my first thought too. It's fairly rare that military coups lead to dramatic improvements in the well-being of the state.

I think this sort of thing underscores a point that people in the West tend to miss--simply holding elections does not, in fact, mean that you have what we generally think of as a democratic state. There are a variety of important principles that have to accompany the process of voting that are equally--if not more--important to the creation of a free state.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby nitePhyyre » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:02 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wasn't the Muslim Brotherhood openly trying to turn Egypt into a theocracy? It's pretty hard to be worse than a guy trying to create a theocracy.
QFT.

morriswalters wrote:Let's see. Lawfully elected. Taken out by a coup. Gee where have I seen this before? Would you ever wish to see troops striding down Pennsylvania Ave deposing a sitting President. I'm not Egyptian, but that's what, 3 governments in less than 3 years. Two by coup. Smell the fires from Syria? Hopefully this won't end up in Civil War.
Considering that the military is doing this with popular support, there is basically, no potential for a civil war. Kinda like how there wasn't a civil war when the army performed a coup against Mubarak after popular protests. When the military+population are doing something, there is no one to civil war against, really.

And if the president decided to unilaterally declare an unfunded, illegal, middle eastern war, then yes, I would hope the military would say 'no' and call an election. Enemies foreign and domestic, you know?

yedidyak wrote:I feel that if 22 million people (allegedly, probably less, but millions) sign a petition against a president, and upwards of 10 or 15 million protest for his resignation on cue, then the democratic thing to do is to at least negotiate. But the Muslim Brotherhood government has not acted democratically in many other ways, despite being elected.
Yeah, deciding not to even talk with a quarter of the population who are so upset they are willing to actually get off their asses and go protest, is tantamount to declaring your intentions to fuck democracy a new hole.

LaserGuy wrote:I think this sort of thing underscores a point that people in the West tend to miss--simply holding elections does not, in fact, mean that you have what we generally think of as a democratic state. There are a variety of important principles that have to accompany the process of voting that are equally--if not more--important to the creation of a free state.
Exactly, just look at america.

One thing to keep in mind is the opinions of the egyptian people about their military. The mil is loved there. There has been times where the military has kept the country running, kept the people fed, despite the government.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:06 pm UTC

Turkey has had the same pattern for decades, where the military would stage a coup every time elected leaders were moving too far towards a theocracy. It seemed to work pretty well.

Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority. There have to be ways to protect the minority. Most western countries manage this with strong constitutions and long democratic elections. But an army guardian against repression by the majority could work as well. It's not necessarily less democratic.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby yedidyak » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

This could go very badly if Morsi supporters don't give in very soon. I think the army did the best they could to prevent widespread chaos, by having religious leaders from Al Azhar and the Coptic Pope speak supporting the army right after the General, and arranging grudging support from Al Nour, the Salafist party.

nitePhyyre wrote:The mil is loved there.


Not always. Mubarak was a military leader, and he was hated by the end. During those 18 days after Jan 25 2011 the army also tortured and abused thousands. I think the crowds are experiencing short term memory loss as they dislike Morsi more. If the army misbehaves they could turn very fast.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Vash » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

I think it's more like direct democracy than a coup, though I haven't thought it out.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby yedidyak » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:17 pm UTC

Vash wrote:I think it's more like direct democracy than a coup, though I haven't thought it out.


Mostly. Not the closing of all Islamist TV stations, arresting of their staff, and arresting all the Muslim Brotherhood leadership though.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:
Vash wrote:I think it's more like direct democracy than a coup, though I haven't thought it out.


Mostly. Not the closing of all Islamist TV stations, arresting of their staff, and arresting all the Muslim Brotherhood leadership though.

You guys are thinking the military is doing it for the opposition or "the people of Egypt". That's not why they do it, the military did this to secure their position and privilege in life. The military may be revered in Egypt, but it's also a massive leach sucking billions out of the economy for it's own benefit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world ... ?ref=world

The protestors have made a deal with the devil just to get rid of someone they wouldn't come to a political solution with. While it is possible for the opposition to beat back the military if it oversteps it bounds, it's very unlikely since the military already claims so much.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

Turkey has had the same pattern for decades, where the military would stage a coup every time elected leaders were moving too far towards a theocracy. It seemed to work pretty well.

I don't know about that. In the recent wave of protests in Turkey, you constantly heard the protesters assure that they don't want military intervention, they don't want a return to old days. And quite some of the protesters are the children of what used to be the military's support base, who were already a minority back then.

Both In Egypt and in Turkey, you can see that an interventionist military won't be neutral, they don't just step in when some objective line has been crossed and return to the barracks afterwards. They have their own political agenda, they hand power to their allies and connections, and put opponents in torture chambers.

That's a heavy price for stability, even if some people consider it a price worth paying.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:04 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
yedidyak wrote:
Vash wrote:I think it's more like direct democracy than a coup, though I haven't thought it out.


Mostly. Not the closing of all Islamist TV stations, arresting of their staff, and arresting all the Muslim Brotherhood leadership though.

You guys are thinking the military is doing it for the opposition or "the people of Egypt". That's not why they do it, the military did this to secure their position and privilege in life. The military may be revered in Egypt, but it's also a massive leach sucking billions out of the economy for it's own benefit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world ... ?ref=world

The protestors have made a deal with the devil just to get rid of someone they wouldn't come to a political solution with. While it is possible for the opposition to beat back the military if it oversteps it bounds, it's very unlikely since the military already claims so much.
Did you read that article? The 'privilege' that that article alleges the army is asserting is 'being the military of a stable, non-fundamentalist state'.

Boo hoo.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:29 pm UTC

You're saying it's ok to overthrow a civilian government by force because you don't like their political leanings? The brotherhood has many flaws and shortcomings, but turning to authoritarian men in uniform for the promise of safety and stability is foolhardy. Excuse, I mean authoritarian AND corrupt.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
sardia wrote:
yedidyak wrote:
Vash wrote:I think it's more like direct democracy than a coup, though I haven't thought it out.


Mostly. Not the closing of all Islamist TV stations, arresting of their staff, and arresting all the Muslim Brotherhood leadership though.

You guys are thinking the military is doing it for the opposition or "the people of Egypt". That's not why they do it, the military did this to secure their position and privilege in life. The military may be revered in Egypt, but it's also a massive leach sucking billions out of the economy for it's own benefit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world ... ?ref=world

The protestors have made a deal with the devil just to get rid of someone they wouldn't come to a political solution with. While it is possible for the opposition to beat back the military if it oversteps it bounds, it's very unlikely since the military already claims so much.
Did you read that article? The 'privilege' that that article alleges the army is asserting is 'being the military of a stable, non-fundamentalist state'.

Boo hoo.


From that very same article:

"For decades, however, its tens of thousands of elite officers have jealously guarded their privileged station. They live as a class apart, with their own social clubs, hotels, hospitals, parks and other benefits financed by the state.

Many have also grown wealthy through government contracts and business deals facilitated by their positions. It is, in some respects, a hereditary Brahmin caste, in which sons follow their fathers’ careers and they all live inside a closed social circle."

Uhm, yeah, I don't think 'being the military of a stable non-fundamentalist state' is the only privilege being asserted here.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:52 pm UTC

It's interesting, how Egypt seems to be handling this. Outside of Morsi's own supporters (obviously) they seem to be thrilled.

Today the Egyptian Stock Market jumped the highest it has all year, which is not something you'd expect after a coup (commonly thought of destabilizing).

Which will probably thrill a lot of the protesters, because a ton of them are upset chiefly over the economy.

Anyways, we'll have to see. My hope is that they'll end up with a relatively good and balanced government that will, in the end, balance the military out too. Handing power to an interim government instead of instituting direct martial law is a good sign, but we shall see.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:57 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You're saying it's ok to overthrow a civilian government by force because you don't like their political leanings?


When those political leanings happen to be "enforce state religion, suppress free speech", yes, it's probably OK to take out that government. The question is what do you replace it with.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:48 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
sardia wrote:You're saying it's ok to overthrow a civilian government by force because you don't like their political leanings?
When those political leanings happen to be "enforce state religion, suppress free speech", yes, it's probably OK to take out that government. The question is what do you replace it with.
Forget "probably OK", try it's "their goddamn responsibility".

sardia wrote:The brotherhood has many flaws and shortcomings, but turning to authoritarian men in uniform for the promise of safety and stability is foolhardy. Excuse, I mean authoritarian AND corrupt.
Here's an idea: Stop translating your western-centric views onto a different peoples.

johnny_7713 wrote:From that very same article:

"For decades, however, its tens of thousands of elite officers have jealously guarded their privileged station. They live as a class apart, with their own social clubs, hotels, hospitals, parks and other benefits financed by the state.

Many have also grown wealthy through government contracts and business deals facilitated by their positions. It is, in some respects, a hereditary Brahmin caste, in which sons follow their fathers’ careers and they all live inside a closed social circle."

Uhm, yeah, I don't think 'being the military of a stable non-fundamentalist state' is the only privilege being asserted here.
You mean they have legions, VA's and military families? Just like every other military on earth? Color me shocked.

I mean it is possible that their legions have solid gold toilets and they drink only blue label, but the article doesn't actually say anything like that. It just describes completely mundane things with sinister language expecting you to draw conclusions.

The article even tells us that the coup was to protect these alleged privileges. It never even mentions how any of these privileges were under attack. It doesn't even pretend to. The article is titled "Military Reasserts Its Allegiance to Its Privileges" but the only thing it actually says about their motivations are along the lines of
That, plus the perception that Brotherhood members were at least competent and disciplined managers, appeared to give the military confidence that the Islamist group would be a worthy partner. That view changed as internal crises mounted. The economy continued to plunge, and fuel shortages and power cuts caused anger in the streets.

Mr. Morsi also took a number of steps that the military saw as jeopardizing national security. He spoke at a mass rally where Muslim clerics called for jihad in Syria, raising fears of a new generation of radicalized Egyptians coming home from a foreign war.


Again, it is entirely possible (probable, even!) that the military is highly corrupt, and that their special status was in danger and that's why they performed the coup. This article however, simply asserts it while every quote and motivation they enumerate points in the opposite direction.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Joeldi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:25 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:sardia wrote:
The brotherhood has many flaws and shortcomings, but turning to authoritarian men in uniform for the promise of safety and stability is foolhardy. Excuse, I mean authoritarian AND corrupt.
Here's an idea: Stop translating your western-centric views onto a different peoples.


Which of these views is especially western-centric? That autoritarianism is bad? That corruption is bad? That having your country lead by the military is often a bad idea?
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:19 pm UTC

Never wish on other people what you wouldn't have wished on you. This is a case of buyers remorse, they voted for the guy and didn't like what they got. Welcome to the democratic process. So they get a new government, the new government doesn't deliver on it's promises, now what? Overthrow it and get another? One of the reasons to have a ballot rather than street demonstrations is that ballots can be counted and elections can be monitored. And petitions are as good as the people collecting them, which is why they can be used to trigger ballots but are not generally a ballot in and of themselves. And the brand of a man's Religion isn't a good reason in and of itself to turn the process on it's head. It may be okay, but there are a lot of ways this can go bad.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Sizik » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:15 am UTC

I'm curious why they don't have/use something like impeachment, where the Pres. can get kicked out of office in an official manner.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:17 am UTC

Being democratically elected doesn't give you a divine right to rule. One's authority to rule comes from the people and if the people no longer support the government, and if they have the power to get a new one, then they will do just that.

One of the biggest arguments for the "right to bear arms" in the USA is in case the government oversteps its authority and the people want to force a new one. And that appears to be whats happening here.

Its certainly not ideal, but theres not much wrong with disposing a leader whose lost his mandate to rule.

I'm curious why they don't have/use something like impeachment, where the Pres. can get kicked out of office in an official manner.


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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:29 am UTC

What Egypt needs is its own Ataturk; a strong ruler who above all else enshrines the separation of religion and state. Where the ruler is beholden only to the best interests of his citizens, not the declarations of the Ayatollahs. Where every time that, democracy or not, a ruler that tries to violate the constitution is immediately removed from power.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby addams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:32 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wasn't the Muslim Brotherhood openly trying to turn Egypt into a theocracy? It's pretty hard to be worse than a guy trying to create a theocracy.
QFT.

morriswalters wrote:Let's see. Lawfully elected. Taken out by a coup. Gee where have I seen this before? Would you ever wish to see troops striding down Pennsylvania Ave deposing a sitting President. I'm not Egyptian, but that's what, 3 governments in less than 3 years. Two by coup. Smell the fires from Syria? Hopefully this won't end up in Civil War.
Considering that the military is doing this with popular support, there is basically, no potential for a civil war. Kinda like how there wasn't a civil war when the army performed a coup against Mubarak after popular protests. When the military+population are doing something, there is no one to civil war against, really.

And if the president decided to unilaterally declare an unfunded, illegal, middle eastern war, then yes, I would hope the military would say 'no' and call an election. Enemies foreign and domestic, you know?

yedidyak wrote:I feel that if 22 million people (allegedly, probably less, but millions) sign a petition against a president, and upwards of 10 or 15 million protest for his resignation on cue, then the democratic thing to do is to at least negotiate. But the Muslim Brotherhood government has not acted democratically in many other ways, despite being elected.
Yeah, deciding not to even talk with a quarter of the population who are so upset they are willing to actually get off their asses and go protest, is tantamount to declaring your intentions to fuck democracy a new hole.

LaserGuy wrote:I think this sort of thing underscores a point that people in the West tend to miss--simply holding elections does not, in fact, mean that you have what we generally think of as a democratic state. There are a variety of important principles that have to accompany the process of voting that are equally--if not more--important to the creation of a free state.
Exactly, just look at america.

One thing to keep in mind is the opinions of the egyptian people about their military. The mil is loved there. There has been times where the military has kept the country running, kept the people fed, despite the government.

Is that True?

The People Love and Trust the Men and Women in Uniform?
Really? I may have seen an Example. Or; Two.

How would I know? What is that Like?
Is it Nice? It would Have To have a Formal Air to it. Right?

You can Not have Your Mother and Your Aunts and Your Mother's Sister's Brothers and Everyone coming Up and Hugging You;
While You are Doing The Changing of The Guard thing. RIght?

oh. I don't know anything about Egypt.
Spoiler:
They have the Question. That is What I was Told as a Child.
No. It is not the Question. It is the One that Asks The Questions. RIght?

I Know nothing about Why the People of Egypt are Not Happy.
A Long, Long time ago; Egypt was The Land of Milk and Honey.

Those are Old Fairy Tails from Long Ago.
Out in The Egyptian Desert is The Sphinx.

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The White People Shot The Sphinx. What do you think happened to her?

The way I heard it. They Missed and Hit The Sphinx.
Did you Laugh? I did not. Not at First. It took a while.

They were doing What? Yep. I wonder what the internet thinks happened?
I was told, Well? Everyone gets Stories. I liked some of the stories better than others.

Napoleon. That's what I was Told! Then I was interested in Napoleon. What The Fuck Did He Think He Was Doing!?
I may not have been Big; But, I was Indignant. How Dare He?

I wanted to Know about this Napoleon Guy. Don't do it. Don't ask about Napoleon. It leads to No Good!
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There are a few that Were! And; To Top it all off. They are Not All Related!

I lost interest in Historical Figures. The Guys that Shot the Gun became interesting to me.
Do you Know what was Up with Them? Well? Have you ever tried to Aim one of Those big Guns?

They did not mean to hurt the Sphinx. They were so upset. That is what I was told.
It helped me to sleep. Knowing they felt bad for shooting The Sphinx.

Those Guys are all Dead, now. Gott'a be. That was a long time, ago.
I had Old Books. You internet people get New Books and The Internet.

I got Old Books. They were Not My Books. They belonged to Mae and Chris.
I Like Old Books. There are paintings of The Sphinx before she was Shot.
I have seen many photos of The Sphinx.

Her Nose was not always Gone. It was no great shakes, anyway.
The mystery of how Beautiful she once was is better than the nose she had.

Besides; We can't put her Nose back. Was it an Act of War?

When was she shot? Those are reasonable Questions.
What else is there to Know about Egypt?

The Milk in the Milk and Honey may be Goat Milk. right?
I don't care for Goat.

I like the Creature. Goats can be as difficult to handle as any animal.
I think I can Milk one. Not a Wild One out in an Open Field.

What else is there to Know about Egypt?
What would I tell a child about Egypt?

It is Where Western Civ. Gets Off the Ground?
That is a difficult position to defend.

What is Egypt like in 2013? Like all other Urban Environments.
Away from Urban Environments? Like the East Side of The Serria Nevada?

Hot, dry, open and oppressive. Those are guesses.
The east side of The Serria Nevada is a forbidding environment.

I listened to people that had come back from Egypt.
The Whole Middle East was Very Strange.

Loads of People went. My Great-Grand Mother went.
She came back angry. She Quit Church.

Those people did more than get on her nerves.
Believing in Peace may be a Genetic Flaw.
Grandma-Great did. Then she went to the Holy Land.

I got bits and pieces of The Story. She had Dreamed of Seeing The Holy Land.
It was During WWII. Stupid Runs in The Family! They said WWI was over!

Who Knew another War was Blowing In? She Lived. Not a big deal.
She was Done Traveling. She was Done with The Church.

I liked her. God watched over an old woman in her Garden?
What God would Blame her? There is no God.

The Sphinx is not a God. It is a bunch of Rocks out in a Desert.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Sphinx_of_Giza

Competing Hypothesis.
http://www.smithsonianjourneys.org/blog ... the-sphinx’s-nose/
I like it. It is consistent.


What is Up with The Middle East?
It can not be Oil.

They have been doing this Longer than Oil. Right?
How does the Military in Egypt make the Decision to Start Running Things?

I don't know how those people manage to find one another in the Storm of War.
Then get their Voices heard?

They must know something I don't know.
They must know a great deal I do not Know.
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:41 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
sardia wrote:You're saying it's ok to overthrow a civilian government by force because you don't like their political leanings?
When those political leanings happen to be "enforce state religion, suppress free speech", yes, it's probably OK to take out that government. The question is what do you replace it with.
Forget "probably OK", try it's "their goddamn responsibility".

sardia wrote:The brotherhood has many flaws and shortcomings, but turning to authoritarian men in uniform for the promise of safety and stability is foolhardy. Excuse, I mean authoritarian AND corrupt.
Here's an idea: Stop translating your western-centric views onto a different peoples.


??? Was one of those statements sarcasm? They seem contradictory.

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Diadem
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Diadem » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:47 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What Egypt needs is its own Ataturk; a strong ruler who above all else enshrines the separation of religion and state.

With or without accompanying genocide?
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

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Djehutynakht
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:13 am UTC

Sizik wrote:I'm curious why they don't have/use something like impeachment, where the Pres. can get kicked out of office in an official manner.



Impeachment may possibly be written into the constitution, yes. I don't know, as I am not an Egyptian Constitutional Scholar. Given that it was just abolished... I'm assuming I don't really need to be.

However, the problem with impeachment itself is that generally it is conducted (at least going off of the US system) by the legislative body.

Problem being is that the legislative body was composed primarily of Morsi's supporters, who are frankly in the same hot water he's in according to these protesters.


Now... the other way to remove him (and the legislature) would be to hold early elections. However, this was one of the protesters demands and it was, I believe, flatly refused by Morsi.

Ergo there really wasn't any other way to remove him either than by force (a "coup d'état" if you choose to label it so) or by putting immense pressure on him, which is what protesters were attempting to do (and which he never really yielded wholeheartedly to). Granted, he was never given more than a few days.

Some analysts speculated though that this could have turned to all out rioting and bloodshed had the atmosphere continued, and that one of the reasons the military did what it did was to stop something of the scale from occurring.

I'm not so sure.

In my opinion, the majority of Egypt did seem to want Morsi out. True, a fair number didn't, but I believe at the moment the big issue is by how they did it, because obviously having the military step in to depose of an entire government every time a significant protest occurs will not work out well.

Things seem to be roughly okay. I think a lot of people are waiting to see how Egypt moves. If what comes out of this is a strong coalition of the many diverse groups in Egypt (including, some have noted, Islamists) and a fairly representative constitution and government, I think diplomatically a lot of people are going to look the other way. That new government would largely be seen as legitimate so long as it's fair, though how it got there will, no doubt, always be a black spot (unless it manages somehow to remove itself from associations with all of this).


He seemed to do passably on the Morsi Meter, although, should this poll be credible, at least a majority of the country has been unhappy with him since the end of his first 100 days in office.

http://www.morsimeter.com/en

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:12 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Being democratically elected doesn't give you a divine right to rule. One's authority to rule comes from the people and if the people no longer support the government, and if they have the power to get a new one, then they will do just that.

One of the biggest arguments for the "right to bear arms" in the USA is in case the government oversteps its authority and the people want to force a new one. And that appears to be whats happening here.

Its certainly not ideal, but theres not much wrong with disposing a leader whose lost his mandate to rule.

I'm curious why they don't have/use something like impeachment, where the Pres. can get kicked out of office in an official manner.


At some point, you are just going to need guns.

You do realize that effectively that what you have just said is that might makes right. You solve this problem on the front end, and hope it never comes to that. The idea of democracy is to transfer power without needing to resort to force of arms. If you go down the path of government by gun then you are in the process of destroying the idea of freedom. The idea that gun ownership can protect you from the government is a fairy tale told by members of the NRA to their membership. Where it true, in the sense that you have used it in, it starts with the presumption that the kind of weapons available to the average man are capable of overthrowing a powerful central government. Help me with Syria if this is the case. Or the Palestinian cause. Or Libya.

The issue with the Egyptian Army lies with the idea of loyalty. Are they loyal to the idea of a secular government or are they loyal to the idea of privilege, of their special place in Egyptian society? What if now having seen what they earned at the ballot box stolen by the military the Brotherhood goes the way of extremism and starts a tidy little insurgency that uses the weapons used as the flavor of choice of Islamic extremist groups?

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CorruptUser
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:35 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:What Egypt needs is its own Ataturk; a strong ruler who above all else enshrines the separation of religion and state.

With or without accompanying genocide?


Egypt already had the genocides and arguably still does...

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:33 pm UTC

So the military shoots protesters who want Morsi back into power:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096 and http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013 ... rhood.html.

Im not really sure who to root for anymore...

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

Chen wrote:So the military shoots protesters who want Morsi back into power:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096 and http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013 ... rhood.html.

Im not really sure who to root for anymore...


I'm not particularly rooting for anyone. I mostly just feel bad for those people stuck in Egypt, and am very happy that I am not.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby johnny_7713 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:00 am UTC

A better article on the Egyptian military's privileges: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 19142.html including using conscripts as cheap labour to make everything from pasta to fridges which are sold on the open market, as well as property value speculation.

Hank Green also did a very interesting video on the situation in Egypt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5suNtLwbBw

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:13 pm UTC

Leading liberal Egyptian politician Mohamed ElBaradei is to be named prime minister, the BBC understands.

Mena state news agency says he is meeting interim President Adly Mahmud Mansour, three days after the army removed Islamist leader Mohammed Morsi amid growing nationwide unrest. The move in turn triggered violent unrest by Morsi supporters on Friday.

Mr ElBaradei, a former head of the UN nuclear watchdog, leads an alliance of liberal and left-wing parties.


A promising start.

Liberal democracy is hard. Did any of our countries get it right straight off the bat? Every country is going to have, at best, some major bumps along the road. Let's hope for the best.

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sardia
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:17 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Leading liberal Egyptian politician Mohamed ElBaradei is to be named prime minister, the BBC understands.

Mena state news agency says he is meeting interim President Adly Mahmud Mansour, three days after the army removed Islamist leader Mohammed Morsi amid growing nationwide unrest. The move in turn triggered violent unrest by Morsi supporters on Friday.

Mr ElBaradei, a former head of the UN nuclear watchdog, leads an alliance of liberal and left-wing parties.


A promising start.

Liberal democracy is hard. Did any of our countries get it right straight off the bat? Every country is going to have, at best, some major bumps along the road. Let's hope for the best.

Don't be naive, hoping is what the lazy and powerless do. Everyone is fighting for their piece of the deteriorating economic pie in Egypt, it's only a question of who's gonna give up first.

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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby addams » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:42 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:A better article on the Egyptian military's privileges: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 19142.html including using conscripts as cheap labour to make everything from pasta to fridges which are sold on the open market, as well as property value speculation.

Hank Green also did a very interesting video on the situation in Egypt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5suNtLwbBw

That was informative.
Good God!

Spoiler:
The World is Calling out for Transparency.

They are; I am. You?

I saw Mr. Obama on a Screen, a long time ago,
He was calling out for Transparency.

He said, 'Sunlight is a Disinfectant that We Need.'
That is nearly what he said. It made sense to Me.

After that speech he was made fun of.
Jokes on TV. Jokes on News Programs.

No one took him seriously. He stopped talking like that.
The level of Secrecy went Up and ......Everybody's Happy?

Some people like it This Way.


The young man in The Clip said that Culture Changes Sllooowwllllyy.
The other Prime Minister of England, Tony? What does he say?

Spoiler:
I watched a screen Tony Blair was on One Time.
He said Culture Can Change Quickly.

He gave examples from His Land and His People.
Two Years. He said The Whole Fricking Game can Change in Two Years.

He was So Interesting. He understood a great deal about it.
He was Free to say anything he wanted. We was No Longer in Office. Right?

Dear! Was he In Office while he was Lecturing on Cultural Shifts?


I still don't know anything about Egypt.
Where are The Women?
They have Women, Right?

What do Women do? Where are They?
Sitting around Holding Hands and Drinking Coffee?
Do they drink Coffee? Is it Legal?

Are The Laws breaking down? How down?
Are people drinking coffee?
Are people drinking wine?

Water comes from The Government.
Nearly everyone drinks water.

Egypt is Complicated.
Spoiler:
Let me see. Do I get it?
It is a Large Scale Game.

Four Groups:

The Military.
These are The Bosses.

The Brotherhood.
This is a group that has a Old Traditions and Young People.

The Poor.
Lots and Lots of people Not in The Military and Not in The Government and Not in The Brotherhood.
Just People. Hoping for Something Better. What could be better than hanging out with Your Home Boys?

That is Three.
Where is Four? It is a King Position?
Someone to Smile and Wave when Things go well.
Someone to Nod Knowingly when Things go wrong.
A King.

No Matter Who they Put in That Position
Somebody Keeps sticking their nose in The Military Position?

oh! Oh! igetit. No. No, I don't.
Thank you for the explanation.

That is depressing Stuff to me.
Who can Offer The People something Better?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

elasto
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:44 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Don't be naive, hoping is what the lazy and powerless do. Everyone is fighting for their piece of the deteriorating economic pie in Egypt, it's only a question of who's gonna give up first.


??

I am lazy and powerless by definition given that I'm outside of Egypt. Are you expecting me to give up my family and job and fly out there to take part in pro-democracy protests (which, incidentally, were what the army were responding to when they ousted the leader who had only a few months previously granted himself emergency dictatorial powers)

What's wrong with me being hopeful exactly? How is your pessimism assisting with the situation exactly then?

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sardia
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:49 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
sardia wrote:Don't be naive, hoping is what the lazy and powerless do. Everyone is fighting for their piece of the deteriorating economic pie in Egypt, it's only a question of who's gonna give up first.


??

I am lazy and powerless by definition given that I'm outside of Egypt. Are you expecting me to give up my family and job and fly out there to take part in pro-democracy protests (which, incidentally, were what the army were responding to when they ousted the leader who had only a few months previously granted himself emergency dictatorial powers)

What's wrong with me being hopeful exactly? How is your pessimism assisting with the situation exactly then?

The so called pessimistic view ought to give you a better idea what to expect, and what our foreign policy team should expect as well. I still remember those early days when posters here were talking about how you should lay flowers and give water to the military in the hopes that they don't gun you down. I'm not asking you to go out there or protest here, but I am saying you shouldn't just say "hope for the best". Everyone thought the miltary/the brotherhood/protesters/w/e group here would moderate or at least improve the situation, that's not always the case.

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Zamfir
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby Zamfir » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:03 am UTC

The Wall Street Journal has opinions on the situation in Egypt as well:
Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile's Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy.

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yurell
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby yurell » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:05 am UTC

Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile's Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy.


"Sometimes democracy must be bathed with blood."
—Augusto Pinochet
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

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jestingrabbit
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Re: Popular "Coup" ousts Egyptian President

Postby jestingrabbit » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:09 am UTC

and from right out of nowhere too. "blah blah blah Egypt's situation blah blah augusto pinochet was a great guy". wtf?
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