The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:28 am UTC

You're still begging the question by deciding that what other people mean by "getting ahead" must be the same as what you mean.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:12 am UTC

People hiring have limited time and ability to acquire enough data to be able to make informed decisions about who should be hired and who shouldn't. Looking at your tats and your piercings is a heuristic. A way, fair or foul, to evaluate you at a glance. People in customer facing positions, or more generally in large organizations, have to deal with a broad range of individuals, you tats and piercings may intimidate or put off the people you deal with. People like bland. Businesses are in business to make money in the end. Not to support individualistic expression. If you want to have tats or piercings, or if you wish wear a straw hat and flip flops at the office, than assume the risk by running your own business. Don't expect the people who do bear those risks to feel the same way you do.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:52 am UTC

Shockingly enough, you're once again not actually arguing against a point anyone else in this thread has been making.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:46 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:"Positive"? No.

"More likely to get ahead"? Yes.

If you have fuck-you money, feel free to do what you want. If you absolutely need every advantage you can get, be prepared to sacrifice what you want for what you need.
Funny aside; I just started a job that pays 40k a year; it's entry level. Just about everyone I'm working with seems to have at least one visible tattoo, including my boss.

My father, who makes over 100k a year (different industry), also has several tattoos. My grandfather -- who worked in yet another industry -- also had a tattoo, and had a very successful career.

The EMT who saved my grandmother's life a few weeks ago was covered in tattoos. Pretty much every inch of her arms.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Zamfir » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:36 am UTC

CU, what kind of attitude is that? You're a 'snowflake' unless you suck up every way you can to people who can help your career? Get a corner office or retire trying?

Does that end somewhere? Are we snowflakes if we don't have plastic surgery to make our face nicer for employers? If we don't get in early every day to make that special coffee the boss likes so much? Should we ditch our friends and find others with more networking potential?

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:00 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Tyndmyr, what's your point? That there are lots of bosses who frown on tattoos? Sure. It's not as if tattooed people are unaware of that. For quite some of them it's a point of pride, a highly visible sign that they won't grovel to thoose people in return for a few notches on the career ladder.

From your and CorruptUser's posts, it seems almost as if you consider grovelling a positive character trait, as if it should be encouraged that people do whatever they can to get favour from those with power. As if it is a bad thing about tattoos that many bosses don't like them, instead of a bad thing about those bosses.


Groveling is...a wee bit subjective here. As is trying to describe the bosses as bad. Humans are social creatures, so status is kind of baked into us. Trying to bring this back to the topic again, the whole discussion of buying art because other people appreciate it is about status, and not valuing it. Now, nobody values everything exactly equally(and we really can't expect them to), but placing no value at all on status seems difficult to justify. Hell, why do you care about "not groveling"?

Let us consider what, exactly is useful about reassigning blame to the bosses is...does blaming the bosses actually help you achieve anything? Or does it rather, assign moral responsibility and decision making power to others, instead of to you? I am rather suspicious of any argument that parallels "It isn't me that's the problem, it's everyone else". See, in the end, it affects your income. It really isn't a big problem for the boss that doesn't hire you. Thus, it is your* problem. Disclaiming responsibility for it will never improve results.

Of course, you are free to choose other factors as more important to you than career options are. It's merely the denial of the effect or the shifting of blame I take issue with. It's irrational thinking** writ large.

*Where "you" is a person considering getting a tattoo.
**Specifically, Halo effect.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:41 pm UTC

Gmalivuk wrote:In the current discussion, what I take issue with more than the fact that some people discriminate against those with tattoos is the fact that some of you seem unaware that nontraditional careers even exist or are desired by some people.
And some of those with tats and piercings seem to think that people should overlook them if they choose not to go in nontraditional fields. Your given assumption seems to be that is discrimination. Or did I misread what I quoted.
Zamfir wrote:it seems almost as if you consider grovelling a positive character trait
Why do you assume that conforming is equivalent to grovelling?
Zamfir wrote:As if it is a bad thing about tattoos that many bosses don't like them, instead of a bad thing about those bosses.
POV. Bosses have different goals then their employees and different perceptions about how their employees help meet those goals. Working in a tattoo parlor, one would think that someone without tats would be difficult to employ, no matter his skill with a needle and ink, simply because it might seem that he didn't share the emotional context of those getting tats. Does that make the boss of the tattoo parlor bad? Or is it good business to have artists with tats and piercings?

The Great Hippo wrote:The EMT who saved my grandmother's life a few weeks ago was covered in tattoos. Pretty much every inch of her arms.
Things change as people adapt to the new now. Perhaps in some future time we will all have Māori facial tattoos, but not yet.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:04 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:CU, what kind of attitude is that? You're a 'snowflake' unless you suck up every way you can to people who can help your career? Get a corner office or retire trying?

Does that end somewhere? Are we snowflakes if we don't have plastic surgery to make our face nicer for employers? If we don't get in early every day to make that special coffee the boss likes so much? Should we ditch our friends and find others with more networking potential?


You're a Snowflake if you aren't willing to make any compromise about yourself, if you insist that the world should judge you for "you" and not how you present yourself. People suck. The very foundation of society is doing things you'd rather not do, and in exchange other people don't do things you'd rather they not do. We set up laws based on these rather you not do's, such as public nudity laws.

It goes both ways. You have to strike a balance between what you want and what you need to do. If the tattoo brings you more joy than it costs, go ahead. If not, don't.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:25 pm UTC

Ah, okay. So "Snowflake" is an exaggerated strawman position that no one in this thread (and almost no one in real life) actually takes. Gotcha.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:26 pm UTC

"Almost no one in real life"? What do you think Hipsters are?

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:31 pm UTC

I think hipsters may like to tell themselves that they never compromise, but they'll generally shower regularly if that's what it takes to land a job. And wake up on time. And wear clean clothes. And be nice to coworkers even when they're annoying as hell.

There are people with the misguided beliefs you described, but I don't think there's much overlap with typical hipsters.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

It's a sliding scale between "snowflake" and "sycophantic conformist".

I can't help but feel like we're arguing about whether to be "Lawful" or "Chaotic" in a D&D setting or something.
Lawful: Do what everyone else is doing, follow the mores of society even if you don't agree with them
Neutral: Strike a balance between doing what everyone else is doing and whatever you want to do.
Chaotic: Do what you want to do, regardless of the mores of society.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:44 pm UTC

And in that analogy, you described snowflakes as 100% chaotic, which I described as being an exaggerated position no one actually holds.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Nordic Einar » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

D&D alignments are an awful way of codifying morality and behavior even in the context of a game. Lets not devolve this conversation into trying to apply them to real life.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You're a Snowflake if you aren't willing to make any compromise about yourself, if you insist that the world should judge you for "you" and not how you present yourself. People suck. The very foundation of society is doing things you'd rather not do, and in exchange other people don't do things you'd rather they not do. We set up laws based on these rather you not do's, such as public nudity laws.
I do insist the world should judge me for 'me' -- and not how I present myself. I also accept that the world is not going to do this, and so I make concessions and compromises in how I present myself. There are certain inches I do not give in that regard -- although that might just be because I've never been called upon to give those inches up. But, yes: I'd like to think there are certain compromises regarding myself I'd never make, and I actually have a great deal of respect for people who feel similarly. You seem to regard such people with a certain degree of contempt; I find that very regrettable.

In a lot of ways, I see an unwillingness to compromise on certain aspects of your appearance / self-presentation as being incredibly brave -- to me, it's often an expression of courage, not self-involvement. I suppose there are cases where I'd find it a little silly -- but in most cases, I have a great deal of respect for such people.

Anyway, I don't think tattoos are nearly as big of a deal-breaker as you've presented them as; I've met plenty of people who have them and also have very successful careers. I also am somewhat skeptical regarding whether or not you understand the difference between a practical compromise ('fine, I'll shower, because otherwise no one will ever hire me') and an unpractical one ('fine, I'll trim my toenails, because otherwise no one will ever hire me').

There seems to be a gradient here you're ignoring; you talk about people in situations where they need to seize every advantage at their disposal -- but then you treat all advantages as if they're equal.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby addams » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

Tattoos?
What are Tattoos?

Art we take with us Everywhere we go?
I knew a man with a Red Wine Birthmark.

I, kind of, worked with him.
I knew the sound of his voice.

We were always doing something.
I don't remember what we were doing.

That day was Not putting cultures into petri dishes and Over and Over.
On those days we wore masks.

It is important to treat each dish like The First Dish.
Each and everyone is important. We rarely spoke while dishes were open.

One day he said something to me. I looked at him. I saw the birthmark.
It stopped me dead in my tracks. I had never seen such a thing before.

I think Tattoos are like that. Sometimes the Tattoos stop me dead in my tracks.
But; Tattoos are a choice! Not of the person that is wearing them, sometimes.

I have spoken to people with tattoos. They are like people that drive cars.
Each one is different from all the others.

One man explained something that was self evident.
He was a young man of fifty when I met him.

He was a delightful man.
When he was in his late teens and into his third decade of life he was very, very arrogant.
Many young adults are. He was hanging out with a bunch of Tough Guys. He got Tattoos.

The tattoos were a status symbol within the Tribe.
Weird? Nah. It makes total sense.

Some of his tattoos were frightening. Skulls and crossbones and Good Lord who knows what.
I asked about the symbolism. He explained the tattoos no longer represent his world view.

He is stuck with them, anyway. It makes him a more patient and deeper man.
His tattoos challenge others to see The Man Within.

His tattoos are a sign that says he is one thing. That is what he was at 22.
He is older and so sweet and kind and that man had Depth. I liked him so much.

If he could take the tattoos off he would. He can't.
The 22 year old man he was made decisions for the fifty year old man he became.

The man with the Red Wine Stain Birthmark lives in a similar world.
Temporary tattoos are a possibility and so useful.

Please, do not make it permanent until you are older.

On the other side; If a person has a tattoo, it is best to ask.
We don't really know anything about a person until we ask.

Then we might, still, not know anything. People lie.
People are difficult to understand under the best of conditions.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby folkhero » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You're a Snowflake if you aren't willing to make any compromise about yourself, if you insist that the world should judge you for "you" and not how you present yourself. People suck. The very foundation of society is doing things you'd rather not do, and in exchange other people don't do things you'd rather they not do. We set up laws based on these rather you not do's, such as public nudity laws.

It goes both ways. You have to strike a balance between what you want and what you need to do. If the tattoo brings you more joy than it costs, go ahead. If not, don't.

Your second paragraph makes a lot of sense, after all different people have different values for things. I'm just left wondering why you describe people with different values than you so derisively. People that value tattoos more than certain potential career opportunities are "snowflakes," people who value fine art for its ability to impress people more than its aesthetics are "suckers." Why not just call them, "people with different values than me"?
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:55 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I think hipsters may like to tell themselves that they never compromise, but they'll generally shower regularly if that's what it takes to land a job. And wake up on time. And wear clean clothes. And be nice to coworkers even when they're annoying as hell.

There are people with the misguided beliefs you described, but I don't think there's much overlap with typical hipsters.


Everyone compromises. The kid who shows up at school wearing tattered black clothing is understood to be a rebel/nonconformist, because that is the socially understood signal for nonconformists. The kid who shows up at school wearing a fur suit really is a nonconformist. He will be treated entirely differently, and far worse.

Not only does basically everyone compromise, it's a very, very good thing that people do. If everyone truly lived life without any regard for the opinons of those around them, the world would be much worse off.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:06 pm UTC

Congratulations. You have once again said something as though it was some kind of rebuttal of my post, when it is in fact nothing of the sort.

I know damn well that everyone compromises, and that it is in many cases quite important to do so. CorruptUser was the one who used the term "snowflake" to describe the sort of uncompromising person that doesn't actually exist.

My point was that if he's going to use that epithet for the nonexistent extreme, he maybe ought to use a different word for people who merely include a small handful of things he himself doesn't include in the list of things they won't compromise on just for the sake of traditional career advancement.
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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:15 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Congratulations. You have once again said something as though it was some kind of rebuttal of my post, when it is in fact nothing of the sort.


I don't know where you're getting the rebuttal from. A quote is just to highlight the context of what I'm replying to, and I don't reply only in disagreement.

I know damn well that everyone compromises, and that it is in many cases quite important to do so. CorruptUser was the one who used the term "snowflake" to describe the sort of uncompromising person that doesn't actually exist.

My point was that if he's going to use that epithet for the nonexistent extreme, he maybe ought to use a different word for people who merely include a small handful of things he himself doesn't include in the list of things they won't compromise on just for the sake of traditional career advancement.


Someone who never, ever compromises, well...such a person would be extremely rare. And probably not have a very succcessful life. However, there is definitely a range in how willing people are to compromise, and some people definitely see themselves as uncompromising(and view this as entirely a good thing). We can certainly talk about the people at one end of the spectrum.

However, the real problem with the term snowflake is that it is typically used to infer specialness, not describe willingness to compromise. These attributes may be connected, but even if so, using a term to describe one as if it described the other is kind of messy.

We can discuss the ideas behind what CorruptUser is saying quite reasonably, but using "conformist" and "nonconformist" is probably a lot more clear.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

Alright, I admit that I'm being pigheaded here. Sorry for being an asshat to most people here, and to those not here.

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Djehutynakht » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:52 pm UTC

In an interesting new twist, it appears that the captured burglars are attempting to bargain to return at least 5 of the 7 paintings in return from their trial being moved from Romania to the Netherlands.

This brings optomistic hope that, at the very least, at least some of the paintings have survived.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23678645

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Re: The Kunsthal Heist comes to a Very Bad End

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:26 am UTC

Darn odd story. Please keep us posted. I had missed this.


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