Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

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Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

Well actually it seems there are more states than just Iowa that allow it, but Iowa was the one mentioned in the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 90291.html

“There’s no reason solely on the (basis) of blindness that a blind person shouldn’t be allowed to carry a weapon,” Danielsen said. “Presumably they’re going to have enough sense not to use a weapon in a situation where they would endanger other people, just like we would expect other people to have that common sense.”


Ironically, this statement seems to show a massive lack of common sense.

The caption under the picture of a blind man holding a gun is even worse:
Michael Barber examines a gun with his hands at Bass Pro Shop in Altoona last month. 'When you shoot a gun, you take it out and point and shoot, and I don't necessarily think eyesight is necessary,' said Barber, who is blind.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Brace » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:41 pm UTC

There's a difference between being legally blind and completely blind. Shooting at contact range would also be completely tenable for a blind person.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:57 pm UTC

Not quite legally blind, but former World No. 1 archer Im Dong-Hyun has 20/100 vision in his strongest eye (Wikipedia suggests "legal blindness" is defined at 20/200 or worse) with 20/200 in the other.

I know someone who cannot see much more than a couple of feet in front of her, and requires a cane in low light levels. She fences.

That said, this doesn't strike me as a sensible move.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

I'm not a fan of guns, but if you're going to make claims about a marginalized group's inability to take basic safety precautions, show me the evidence or GTFO.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Роберт » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:I'm not a fan of guns, but if you're going to make claims about a marginalized group's inability to take basic safety precautions, show me the evidence or GTFO.

This.

Saying "blind people shouldn't be allowed to buy guns" seems to me that it is likely just some ableist BS. Why shouldn't they be allowed to buy guns?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:20 pm UTC

Given that a blind man with a sword can defeat an army of 10,000 ninjas, giving them guns would make them unstoppable.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Given that a blind man with a sword can defeat an army of 10,000 ninjas, giving them guns would make them unstoppable.
What if it's a blind ninja?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:Not quite legally blind, but former World No. 1 archer Im Dong-Hyun has 20/100 vision in his strongest eye (Wikipedia suggests "legal blindness" is defined at 20/200 or worse) with 20/200 in the other.

I know someone who cannot see much more than a couple of feet in front of her, and requires a cane in low light levels. She fences.

That said, this doesn't strike me as a sensible move.


No, this isn't quite correct. Legal blindness is 20/200 with corrective lenses. I have a -5.25 diopter in one eye and -4.75 in the other (about 20/400) and can see perfectly (about 20/15) with glasses or contacts. This isn't classified as legally blind.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:50 pm UTC

Of course. Missed that.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby nitePhyyre » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:02 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:I'm not a fan of guns, but if you're going to make claims about a marginalized group's inability to take basic safety precautions, show me the evidence or GTFO.
Роберт wrote:Saying "blind people shouldn't be allowed to buy guns" seems to me that it is likely just some ableist BS. Why shouldn't they be allowed to buy guns?
Huh... Wha...? Are you two serious? Like really?

Are you just wholly and completely ignorant on gun safety, are you just trying to be the most ridiculously stupid devil's advocates that you can imagine (you've succeeded magnificently), or are you under the impression that 'aiming' somehow doesn't involve actually being able to see what you are aiming at?

If you are wholly and completely ignorant concerning gun safety, that's completely reasonable. If you aren't interested in guns why would you look into gun safety? On the other hand, why the shit would you post in this thread without even googling 'gun safety'? Let me quote from remington's 10 commandments of gun safety
1 - Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
2 - Firearms should be unloaded when not actually in use.
3 - Don't rely on your gun's safety.
4 - Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.
5 - Use proper ammunition.
6 - If your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, handle with care.
7 - Always wear eye and ear protection when shooting.
8 - Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before shooting.
9 - Don't alter or modify your gun and have it serviced regularly.
10 - Learn the mechanical and handling characteristics of the firearm you are using.
This is the most important gun safety rule. A safe direction is one in which an accidental discharge will not cause injury to yourself or others. Never allow your gun to point at anything you don't intend to shoot. Be especially careful when you're loading or unloading. Treat every gun as if it were loaded. And make it a habit to know where your muzzle is pointed at all times, even when your firearm is unloaded.
You can't stop a shot in mid-air, so do not fire unless you know exactly where your shot is going and what it will strike. Never fire at a sound, a movement or a patch of color. A hunter in camouflage can easily be mistaken for a target by an impulsive shooter. Before you pull the trigger be absolutely sure of your target and what's behind it. Make sure your shot has a backstop such as a hillside or dense material like sand.
Remember, bullets can travel great distances with tremendous velocity. Know how far your shot will go if you miss your target or the bullet ricochets
Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before shooting.
Before loading your gun, open the action and make sure there's no ammunition in the chamber or magazine. Check the barrel for any obstructions or debris. Even a small amount of snow, mud, excess lubricant or grease in the bore can dangerously increase pressure and cause the barrel to bulge or burst when firing. Use a cleaning rod and patch to wipe away anti-rust compounds or any other residues or obstructions in the barrel. Never try to shoot out an obstruction by loading another shell and firing!

When firing, rely on your instincts. If the noise or recoil from your firearm seems off or weak, stop everything, unload your firearm and be sure nothing is lodged in the barrel. Remember the 12/20 burst? That's what can happen when the barrel is obstructed. So always be sure you're using the correct ammunition in your firearm and that it's free of obstructions
And, fuck. We are even talking about 'legally blind' here. We are talking
When you shoot a gun, you take it out and point and shoot, and I don't necessarily think eyesight is necessary
people who don't have sight.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:10 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Given that a blind man with a sword can defeat an army of 10,000 ninjas, giving them guns would make them unstoppable.
What if it's a blind ninja?


Depends how many blind ninjas. If just one, nothing short of learning a valuable lesson about human nature could kill him. If it's a her, depends on whether she is good or evil; the good female ninjas are immortal, no matter the size of the army. If there is only 1 female ninja, she is good. If there are two, the one with modest but perky breasts will be good, while the other ninja with the larger pair will have been driven insane from the all the back pain.

There is otherwise a cap of one blind ninja in a group, but the group has rules too. More than 3 is kind of risky, 5 is pretty much the limit for regular practice. Six is unstable but can occur on rare occasions, assuming the 6th is a former member that was kicked out, an old mentor, or recurring villain joining forces against something worse.

As for 'citation needed' for blind people being allowed to own and use guns, no, just no. We don't need to spend time and money on studies for whether or not blind people can operate something that requires you to see what you are doing. Unless you also want to argue blind people should be allowed driver's licenses?
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

In line with what nitePhyyre was saying, I was more astounded by the completely blind people aspect. I can certainly see there could be debate as to those considered "legally blind" since this can certainly vary in effect.

But a completely blind person being able to carry and use a firearm in public? This seems pretty absurd. Perhaps in a closed course or the like, and even then, lacking sight can result in a whole host of problems that make this FAR more dangerous than for someone who can see.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby darkone238 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

I'm wondering why they're making such a big deal out of this. Iowa became a Shall Issue state from a May Issue state, which refers to the ability for a person to get a carry permit. This doesn't have anything to do with who can buy a gun (which is pretty much federally regulated).

It doesn't specifically enable blind people to buy a gun, that's just an effect of, y'know, becoming a shall issue state. This is the case in every shall issue state. This seems like an intentionally missing-the-point article made by gun control advocates.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Qaanol » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

How about…

"If you shoot or threaten to shoot a person when doing so is not justified, then you face charges for that crime whether or not you can see."

Everyone has the same right to bear arms, and everyone has the same responsibility not to hurt others. It is fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory. You know, equality.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:10 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Wha...? Are you two serious? Like really?

Yes.

Now that you know that we're serious, would you like to rewrite your questions in a manner suggesting you actually care what our opinions are, or do you prefer to continue taking the piss?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:14 pm UTC

Chen wrote:In line with what nitePhyyre was saying, I was more astounded by the completely blind people aspect. I can certainly see there could be debate as to those considered "legally blind" since this can certainly vary in effect.

But a completely blind person being able to carry and use a firearm in public? This seems pretty absurd. Perhaps in a closed course or the like, and even then, lacking sight can result in a whole host of problems that make this FAR more dangerous than for someone who can see.


FWIW, without my glasses at a 20/400 prescription (ie. legal blindness), I can't clearly identify who a person is if they're more than about 3 feet away from me. At about 30 feet, I can't pick a person out of a somewhat complicated background unless they move. At ~150 feet, I can't tell the difference between two similar colored cars parked next to each other and one larger car. I think it is conceivable that I could use a gun safely at a firing range, or, say, drive at low speeds on a closed course.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:24 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:Wha...? Are you two serious? Like really?

Yes.

Now that you know that we're serious, would you like to rewrite your questions in a manner suggesting you actually care what our opinions are, or do you prefer to continue taking the piss?
Frankly, not really; the notion that someone doesn't require vision to use a lethal weapon is pretty frightening, and I'm not really sure how to rationally address your position without utter incredulity pouring through.

We're obviously not talking about people who don't have 100/20 vision, but how do you feel about someone who is legally blind driving?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Or we could have the same vision test for driving and gun licenses. Plus the same rules for renewing licenses, mandatory safety courses, etc. Same restrictions for conditions such as epilepsy and so forth. Not sure about the restrictions for mental illness and/or convictions.

Though honestly I don't think mental illness should necessarily mean any restrictions; I fail to see how discouraging people from visiting a psychiatrist and getting diagnosed would lead to a safer society.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Cleverbeans » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Though honestly I don't think mental illness should necessarily mean any restrictions


Well, let me assure you any history of mental illness should absolutely prevent you from purchasing a weapon. People with depression can often on a whim kill themselves and others, a women in my city with depression just killer her children. Mania makes people feel like they have no consequences to their actions which is very dangerous with a weapon. Schizophrenia almost always comes with paranoia. One gentleman I know heard his neighbors plotting his murder, and went to confront them about it but it was just a hallucination. If he'd had easy access to a gun he may have tried to defend himself against an imaginary threat. Having been "certified" with a mental illness here in Canada I am unable to acquire a firearms licence for the remainder of my life, which is a really good thing.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:Wha...? Are you two serious? Like really?

Yes.

Now that you know that we're serious, would you like to rewrite your questions in a manner suggesting you actually care what our opinions are, or do you prefer to continue taking the piss?
Frankly, not really; the notion that someone doesn't require vision to use a lethal weapon is pretty frightening, and I'm not really sure how to rationally address your position without utter incredulity pouring through.

We're obviously not talking about people who don't have 100/20 vision, but how do you feel about someone who is legally blind driving?
Tons of things are lethal. That walking stick every blind person has could be used lethally.
If a blind person could safely opporate a motor vehicle I would be fine with it as well as be amazed.

I would trust a fully blind person more with a gun than someone with 20/20 vision. A blind person would worry about hitting things/people he is't shooting at, vision or rather perception of accuracy gives people overconfidence and that's why police hit bystanders when shooting at criminals. My primary issue with this is that the argument assumes blind people are senile and will fire shots wildly in the direction of any suspicious sound.

I also wouldn't want to make it illegal for any handicapped person to not carry means of self defence because then it would broadcast to criminals that the handicapped couldn't stop you if you wanted to mug or rape them.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Tons of things are lethal. That walking stick every blind person has could be used lethally.
If a blind person could safely opporate a motor vehicle I would be fine with it as well as be amazed.
... I can't tell if you're trolling... If your counterpoint to this discussion is 'but a blind person could beat someone to death with their cane, therefor, we might as well give them guns', I'm calling troll right here and now.

Fire Brns wrote:I also wouldn't want to make it illegal for any handicapped person to not carry means of self defence because then it would broadcast to criminals that the handicapped couldn't stop you if you wanted to mug or rape them.
Oh shit you aren't kidding! Ok, lets try this slowly for you;
This isn't an issue of rendering the handicapped defenseless, this is an issue of recognizing that the 'defensive aid' you're trying to argue they have a right to CANNOT BE PROPERLY USED BY THEM. EDIT: This has nothing to do with 'the handicapped' actually, and everything to do specifically with the blind.

And again, just to make sure this idiotic line of discussion doesn't come up again, no one is suggesting you need perfect vision to use a gun.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Angua » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:22 pm UTC

Cleverbeans wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Though honestly I don't think mental illness should necessarily mean any restrictions


Well, let me assure you any history of mental illness should absolutely prevent you from purchasing a weapon. People with depression can often on a whim kill themselves and others, a women in my city with depression just killer her children. Mania makes people feel like they have no consequences to their actions which is very dangerous with a weapon. Schizophrenia almost always comes with paranoia. One gentleman I know heard his neighbors plotting his murder, and went to confront them about it but it was just a hallucination. If he'd had easy access to a gun he may have tried to defend himself against an imaginary threat. Having been "certified" with a mental illness here in Canada I am unable to acquire a firearms licence for the remainder of my life, which is a really good thing.

The relative risk of violence in mental illness is generally seen as quite small or moderate (eg, 5% relative risk for schizophrenia [though certain subtypes of schizophrenia are at a higher risk] which is the highest on the relative risk scale), especially as compared with factors like a past history of violence, alcohol/drug dependence, and personality disorders.

I don't support easy access to guns in general, but people with mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatised as automatically being at such high risk of violence that they are significantly more dangerous than the general population.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:25 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:I'm not a fan of guns, but if you're going to make claims about a marginalized group's inability to take basic safety precautions, show me the evidence or GTFO.


This. Yeah, it'll probably be tougher for a blind person than a sighted person. That's true of all kinds of stuff, though.

Plenty of states(and federal law) do not discriminate against the blind in this regard. There hasn't been a giant wave of blind people randomly shooting guns everywhere before now.

As for things like "identifying your target", blind people can totally identify people. They can also be aware of their surroundings. Sight is not the ONLY sense. This doesn't mean a different standard for blind people. They are still responsible for what they do with the gun. Hell, there are completely blind people who ride bikes in traffic just fine. Could I do this? God no. But not everyone is me.

Cleverbeans wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Though honestly I don't think mental illness should necessarily mean any restrictions


Well, let me assure you any history of mental illness should absolutely prevent you from purchasing a weapon.


Er....not all mental illness makes one an unstable danger. Yes, the present standard of "is a danger to self or others" is reasonable grounds for prevention. ANY mental illness...not so much.

C'mon now, how 'bout we use some sort of standard beyond fearmongering?

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:lenty of states(and federal law) do not discriminate against the blind in this regard. There hasn't been a giant wave of blind people randomly shooting guns everywhere before now.
I'm curious if you recognize this not as proof that blind people may safely use guns, but potentially as proof that blind people simply aren't using guns. Because it's a ridiculous thing for a blind person to use.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:36 pm UTC

Actually, the issue of mental illness and guns is that I don't want a person who voluntarily goes to a psychiatrist to be put on a watch list or face any other adverse consequences for trying to deal with hez problems in the safest way possible. Whether or not mentally ill people should have access to guns, if you punish mentally ill people for seeking help, lessen mentally ill people will seek help, and hooray, now you have untreated mentally ill people with guns!

A person with a violent history or court ordered to seek psychiatric care, yeah, they can be on the list.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:lenty of states(and federal law) do not discriminate against the blind in this regard. There hasn't been a giant wave of blind people randomly shooting guns everywhere before now.
I'm curious if you recognize this not as proof that blind people may safely use guns, but potentially as proof that blind people simply aren't using guns. Because it's a ridiculous thing for a blind person to use.


So? If they don't want to use guns, then what problem exists? Why do we need to make a law against the blind doing this?

And why, exactly, is it ridiculous for a blind person to wish to be able to purchase or carry a gun(the actual right here)? Hell, with this law in place, someone buying a present for their firearm loving buddy would be a criminal.

But hey, let's go on to shooting, because everyone is ignoring the other aspects of this law. How is a blind person at a shooting range a danger? I should point out that in hot/cold ranges, commands are invariably verbal(other types of range do not require shooters to be aware of commands).

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:38 pm UTC

I would suggest that this topic get moved to gun control in sb.
Izawwlgood wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:Tons of things are lethal. That walking stick every blind person has could be used lethally.
If a blind person could safely opporate a motor vehicle I would be fine with it as well as be amazed.
... I can't tell if you're trolling... If your counterpoint to this discussion is 'but a blind person could beat someone to death with their cane, therefor, we might as well give them guns', I'm calling troll right here and now.
My point is that lethality doesn't matter, competency in use is. Had you not selectively ignored the rest of my post for the sake of being derisive you would have noticed that.

Fire Brns wrote:I also wouldn't want to make it illegal for any handicapped person to not carry means of self defence because then it would broadcast to criminals that the handicapped couldn't stop you if you wanted to mug or rape them.
Oh shit you aren't kidding! Ok, lets try this slowly for you;
This isn't an issue of rendering the handicapped defenseless, this is an issue of recognizing that the 'defensive aid' you're trying to argue they have a right to CANNOT BE PROPERLY USED BY THEM. EDIT: This has nothing to do with 'the handicapped' actually, and everything to do specifically with the blind.

And again, just to make sure this idiotic line of discussion doesn't come up again, no one is suggesting you need perfect vision to use a gun.
No one ever suggested requiring perfect vision to fire a gun so please don't strawman that.
By what definition can a blind person not properly use a gun? They have hands and spatial awareness to know which way is the muzzle is pointing and where the trigger is. They wouldn't be sharpshooting, it would be within 10ft to contact. I couldn't even see how only agressing people would be a reason to own a gun.
Blind people like nature, what does Iowa have? Oh that's right, nature. you know what nature has? predatory mammals. So you know shooting a mointain lion when it ambushes you and your guide dog would be an awesome use.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:My point is that lethality doesn't matter, competency in use is. Had you not selectively ignored the rest of my post for the sake of being derisive you would have noticed that.
Which was something I addressed; competency of use includes 'ability to see what you're shooting'.
Fire Brns wrote:No one ever suggested requiring perfect vision to fire a gun so please don't strawman that.
The point was brought up by Xenomortis earlier in the thread.
Fire Brns wrote:By what definition can a blind person not properly use a gun? They have hands and spatial awareness to know which way is the muzzle is pointing and where the trigger is. They wouldn't be sharpshooting, it would be within 10ft to contact. I couldn't even see how only agressing people would be a reason to own a gun.
Not sure; how about 'good enough vision to drive a car'? Which is a clear point that a few people including myself have brought up already.
Fire Brns wrote:Blind people like nature, what does Iowa have? Oh that's right, nature. you know what nature has? predatory mammals. So you know shooting a mointain lion when it ambushes you and your guide dog would be an awesome use.
In what ridiculous world do you live in where you actually imagine this happening? So, person is too blind to navigate the outdoors, and has a guide dog, but is NOT too blind to identify where the perfectly still standing but somehow still evidently dangerous mountain lion is standing, and shoot it?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Brace » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:09 pm UTC

A blind person could reliably shoot the correct target at contact range. A huge portion of defensive gun uses are at contact range
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Then blind people are welcome to own and carry around some other weapon that works effectively at contact range but that doesn't, say, send small lead projectiles hundreds of feet at hundreds of feet per second when you miss a target that isn't at contact range.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:29 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:Wha...? Are you two serious? Like really?

Yes.

Now that you know that we're serious, would you like to rewrite your questions in a manner suggesting you actually care what our opinions are, or do you prefer to continue taking the piss?
Frankly, not really; the notion that someone doesn't require vision to use a lethal weapon is pretty frightening, and I'm not really sure how to rationally address your position without utter incredulity pouring through.

We're obviously not talking about people who don't have 100/20 vision, but how do you feel about someone who is legally blind driving?

I'm okay with some incredulity. There's a difference between regular incredulity and comments like "Are you trying to be stupid?". I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, since you have literally just asked me a non-insulting question that I'm willing to answer.

My opinion about cars? Well, you might say that it's hardly related, because my opinion about cars is that they should be driven by computers. The technology is within reach; to save lives, governments should encourage its development, and once it's common, humans should be banned from driving on any public road. Also, we need more public transit; cars are wasteful, damage the environment, and have many harmful indirect effects. Those are the biggest issues of car usage, so those are what public policy should focus on.

Within the context of that focus, we can also address a few details during the stopgap years, such as vision requirements for having a driver's license. First off, as far as I've heard, current vision requirements are inconsistently enforced - people can renew their licenses without doing new vision tests, even as their vision degenerates. That's a measurable effect that you could study, so if I was a policymaker, I'd like to see a study into the public cost of deaths attributed to driving with eyesight below the allowed threshold. That would, of course, have to be weighed against the cost of limiting legally-blind people's mobility, which is also a public cost. (Plus the cost of running additional tests.) If the study found the risks were insignificant compared to the costs, I'd favor relaxing the requirements that are enforced.

How does that relate to guns? It's all about public policy. Although, in this case, I can't make the "cost of them not being allowed to own guns" argument, because I haven't seen evidence that there's any public benefit from people owning guns. I can make the "cost of enforcing regulations" argument, and I can also make a hypothetical argument based on the assumption that I believe gun ownership has a public benefit (like self-defense, deterring crime, or holding government accountable, to name some common beliefs). And bear in mind that, checking the Internet, it looks like accidental gun deaths are about 650/year in the entire US, while cars kill about 40,000/year despite all restrictions put in place to stop it, and despite, you know, the fact that cars aren't designed to kill people. Compared to cars, guns are astonishingly safe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only concern here is that people would possibly be injured or killed by blind people accidentally shooting them with legally owned and operated guns? Legally blind people are less than 1% of the population. Using the federal minimum wage and the EPA value of a human life, if all Americans spent the amount of time worrying about this that I already have writing this post, we'd have to save more than 500 lives to break even, so legally blind people would have to be more than 100 times as deadly as sighted ones for it to be even worth the attention I've given it.

Now, I don't know how completely blind people can use guns responsibly, but that's because I'm not blind. I spend literally all of my time not thinking about how to safely practice marksmanship without seeing, so I'm not going to demand a full justification whenever someone says that they know how to do so. The only way to convince me that we need to demand heightened scrutiny on a marginalized group? Is to show me that it will result in deaths if we don't. Not "I, in my own ignorance, can't think of how to do that safely", but "Here is my evidence that large numbers of people actually die when as a result".

You're not going to produce that evidence, because there is no such evidence, because it's not true. Now I'm going to go back to worrying about the ten thousand Americans per year who are killed intentionally by sighted people with guns and the forty thousand Americans per year who are killed by sighted people with cars.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:38 pm UTC

(Kind of Ninja'd by elvish...)
Do we actually have any evidence of blind people who purchase guns having a higher rate of accidents?

There's ample room for that wossname effect, the one where fear of your condition impairing your function causes you to operate even more carefully and gracefully than "normal" people would.

Is to show me that it will result in deaths if we don't. Not "I, in my own ignorance, can't think of how to do that safely", but "Here is my evidence that large numbers of people actually die when as a result".

Exactly. Why should we risk even approaching encroaching on the Bill of Rights, if there's no actual evidence to back it up? Isn't the "of course it needs to be outlawed, evidence not needed!" method of thinking what everyone castigates about Prohibition?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Bsob » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:39 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Then blind people are welcome to own and carry around some other weapon that works effectively at contact range but that doesn't, say, send small lead projectiles hundreds of feet at hundreds of feet per second when you miss a target that isn't at contact range.


What evidence do you have that blind people miss targets at contact range more than sighted?

Alternatively, what "other weapon" exists that is as effective as a gun?
Last edited by Bsob on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

Brace wrote:A blind person could reliably shoot the correct target at contact range. A huge portion of defensive gun uses are at contact range


Then they should be free to use weapons that are only for contact ranges. Not 100 feet away.




Have we really become so Basically Decent that there seriously are a non-insignificant number of people who think that requiring some bare minimum ability to see is unwarranted discrimination? What next, removing the fitness requirements of the police force because we don't want to shame fat people?
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Weeks » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Isn't the "of course it needs to be outlawed, evidence not needed!" method of thinking what everyone castigates about Prohibition?
Pardon my interruption but what prohibition are you referring to here?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:46 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:My opinion about cars? Well, you might say that it's hardly related, because my opinion about cars is that they should be driven by computers.
I think this is completely off topic; I assume you would also be okay with orbiting death lasers that are capable of identifying threats and vaporizing assailants within moments of a crimes onset? The logic 'people are fuzzy and bad and therefor we should automate $activity' is doing little aside from ignoring the actual question I asked.

You however addressed a bunch of ancillary points to the debate that I feel are all quite apropos, and underline that it's not A ) a very pressing issue, and B ) one that you can draw simple lines around. That said, the fact that we presently have poor management of the safety legislation in place is NOT a reason to forgo future safety legislation, nor is it proof that said legislation isn't effective; if someone with a seeing eye dog, a cane, and opaque as fuck cateracts walked into a DMV, I would hope they couldn't walk out with their own drivers license. Similarly, if that same person walked into their local city hall, I would hope they couldn't walk out with a FOID.

Elvish Pillager wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only concern here is that people would possibly be injured or killed by blind people accidentally shooting them with legally owned and operated guns? Legally blind people are less than 1% of the population. Using the federal minimum wage and the EPA value of a human life, if all Americans spent the amount of time worrying about this that I already have writing this post, we'd have to save more than 500 lives to break even, so legally blind people would have to be more than 100 times as deadly as sighted ones for it to be even worth the attention I've given it.
This is correct, but your argument now that we shouldn't care is rather off topic as well.

Elvish Pillager wrote:The only way to convince me that we need to demand heightened scrutiny on a marginalized group? Is to show me that it will result in deaths if we don't. Not "I, in my own ignorance, can't think of how to do that safely", but "Here is my evidence that large numbers of people actually die when as a result".
This isn't the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is proving that a blind person cannot adequately shoot as well as a non-blind person. Just like we don't have to find data that blind drivers will get into accidents more frequently (protip: that data doesn't exist either!). There's PLENTY of data that being vision IMPAIRED increases your risk of car accident; I'm still somewhat incredulous that you are positing that being BLIND doesn't impair your ability to fire a gun. Just like we don't need data to suggest that giving guns to 5 year olds is unwise, we shouldn't need data to prove that giving guns to the blind is unwise.

Elvish Pillager wrote:Now I'm going to go back to worrying about the ten thousand Americans per year who are killed intentionally by sighted people with guns and the forty thousand Americans per year who are killed by sighted people with cars.
Certainly, and they're certainly a bigger issue. I'm not suggesting that if you give blind people guns in Iowa, suddenly armies of blind Iowa-ians (?) will drive forth and begin a wave of inaccurate but deadly killings. I am suggesting that this is an utterly moronic policy on the part of Iowa, and holding that you don't need vision to shoot a gun seems rather ignorant.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Роберт » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:48 pm UTC

Frankly, I'm astonished that so many think blind people shouldn't have access to guns. I agree that certain mentally ill people shouldn't have access to guns. It's a difficult question on how to handle, because we don't want to put barriers into place that keep mentally ill people from getting help, nor do we want to put unneeded restrictions on mentally ill people whose illness doesn't affect their ability to be responsible with guns.

But blindness isn't going to cause someone to do anything reckless or harmful with a gun. Blindness doesn't affect your ability to be responsible with a gun. I know you're capable of closing your eyes, rendering your eyesight will below 20/200. Does that mean it should be illegal for you to own or carry a gun?

Let's say a woman has a large collection of guns, and plans to sell some. Then she goes blind. Now she isn't allowed to carry her gun to the store to sell it like she was planning too? That's dumb.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Bsob » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:49 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Brace wrote:A blind person could reliably shoot the correct target at contact range. A huge portion of defensive gun uses are at contact range


Then they should be free to use weapons that are only for contact ranges. Not 100 feet away.




Have we really become so ...Hold on, I think I swallowed a gerbil. Okay. What was I saying? that there seriously are a non-insignificant number of people who think that requiring some bare minimum ability to see is unwarranted discrimination? What next, removing the fitness requirements of the police force because we don't want to shame fat people?


If a blind person can use a gun to safely and effectively defend themselves, why would anyone want to stop that?

They seem like a group that would be easily victimized, giving them a heightened desire to carry.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:50 pm UTC

Use a knife instead?

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:52 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:The only way to convince me that we need to demand heightened scrutiny on a marginalized group? Is to show me that it will result in deaths if we don't. Not "I, in my own ignorance, can't think of how to do that safely", but "Here is my evidence that large numbers of people actually die when as a result".
This isn't the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is proving that a blind person cannot adequately shoot as well as a non-blind person.

Of course it's not the null hypothesis. I demand a much higher standard than "disprove the null hypothesis" when you want the state to impose additional restrictions on a marginalized group.
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