Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

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morriswalters
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby morriswalters » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

If you can adapt than the people who might wish to do you harm can adapt also. If you bring a knife, they can bring a gun and so on. However a heavy object is the better choice for muggers, nothing that a stop would catch. Working in pairs, fists would probably be enough. You would be overwhelmed before you could react. Down on the ground getting stomped and kicked. Distance is your ally and caution about being in isolated situations. Guns are useless if you don't have a chance to bring them into play. A blind persona is doubly damned. He has to make a instant determination if the contact that he feels is a prelude to an assault. Act too quick and he may kill somebody innocent, act too late and he won't get a shot off. That assuming that he doesn't get hit in the head with a brick as his first indication of an assault.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:44 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:In almost all cases, a mugger who is trying to attack a blind person will be very much dissuaded by having a knife stabbed three inches into their chest. I don't think that the number of muggers who would not be dissuaded by this is high enough to warrant adding a basketball-sized CO2 bomb to the mix.


Yeah... I'm not seeing the need for this. Stabbing someone in the chest deep enough to puncture a lung is pretty effective in and of itself, unless you're in an action movie.


It's certainly a faster stop than just a knife stab. However, yeah, once you've gotten to the point of stabbing them in the chest, a knife fight is basically over. The primary difficulties come before that. So while it may be a situational advantage, it still has many downsides.

gmalivuk wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Otherwise, this thing isn't especially well designed for self-defense (As previously discussed, knives are fundamentally offensive weapons and not generally well suited to defense). Even if it was, self-defense with a knife is extremely skill and physical-ability dependent.
The reason knives aren't suited for defense is that a stabbed or cut enemy (be it man or beast) can keep attacking you unless you've managed to slit its throat or sever its spinal cord or something.

Most things *can't*, on the other hand, keep attacking if they've got a basketball-sized bubble of super cold CO2 somewhere inside their body now.

Sure, by no means perfect, but then neither is anything else. I merely believe that it is more effective against an opponent and safer for the user than previously suggested contact-range alternatives to firearms, while being safer for bystanders than firearms themselves.


It's a reason. Knife fights typically start with defensive injuries to forearms, etc, since people tend to instictively try to avoid stabs to the torso and what not. Obviously, expending the CO2 at this point would have little to no effect. If used perfectly, you trim some time off the end of the fight, between striking a mortal wound and them stopping, but it doesn't improve your ability to get there.

So, slight advantage in certain circumstances, yes. Viable replacement for a firearm? Absolutely not.

With respect to giving a gun to a blind guy....typically, a mugger isn't going to be attacking someone in a crowded place where there are a lot of bystanders to get in the way.


That's an excellent point. Aggressors tend to select the grounds on which the attack happens, and will typically do so to avoid witnesses. Maybe not always, but the problem of defensive shooters hitting bystanders does not seem large now, and certainly is not so for blind defensive shooters. The latter is no doubt partially a result of small sample sizes, but it also indicates that it's just not a big problem.

davidstarlingm wrote:In almost all cases, a mugger who is trying to attack a blind person will be very much dissuaded by having a knife stabbed three inches into their chest. I don't think that the number of muggers who would not be dissuaded by this is high enough to warrant adding a basketball-sized CO2 bomb to the mix.

With respect to giving a gun to a blind guy....typically, a mugger isn't going to be attacking someone in a crowded place where there are a lot of bystanders to get in the way.


It is probable, but not certain. Certainly, I would view being stabbed as a deterrant, but then, I'm not a mugger. Psychological deterrents are real, but none of them work 100% of the time. Being physically disabled does guarantee an end to hostilities. Therefore, an additional advantage is accrued by this weapon over a normal knife, even if it is minor and highly situational.

Personally, I wouldn't select the knife, but that's partially because it's bloody expensive, and partly because I pretty much never want to be in a knife fight. I sometimes carry a knife, but only because I view it as a tool for opening boxes and the like, not because it's there for self defense. The idea of changing a situation from a "they win, I lose" scenario to a probable "we both lose" scenario isn't that appealing to me.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:03 am UTC

Personally I'd far rather just not keep a lot of cash in my wallet and hand it over to the mugger. No need for anyone to die or be injured over a small sum of money (or indeed a big sum, but that's a different conversation).
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:30 am UTC

And if the mugger takes the whole wallet? To be honest, unless I'm carrying a moneybrick, the loss of the money is nothing compared to canceling/replacing my credit cards and licenses.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby elasto » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:02 pm UTC

Personally I'd never carry more than one credit and one debit card, and I'd never carry any licence with me. Banks can typically replace a stolen card by the following day anyhow.

I'm with Red Hal: 99% of muggers don't want to hurt you they just want money. It's not worth anyone losing a life over - you or them.

It's a different mindset though; From an outsider's pov, the US still has something of a 'spaghetti western' outlook on such things so it would seem - and I say this as someone who has been 'home-invaded'.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:And if the mugger takes the whole wallet? To be honest, unless I'm carrying a moneybrick, the loss of the money is nothing compared to canceling/replacing my credit cards and licenses.
Sorry, are you claiming that there's a significant cost to replacing credit cards and IDs? Because that shits free; at worst, you have an opportunity cost lost of being without a credit card for a day or two, and have to spend an afternoon hiking back to the DMV.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:15 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:Personally I'd far rather just not keep a lot of cash in my wallet and hand it over to the mugger. No need for anyone to die or be injured over a small sum of money (or indeed a big sum, but that's a different conversation).
And as we all know all attacks are by muggers who only ever want what cash you happen to have, and who will never get angry and violent if they think you're holding out.

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:And if the mugger takes the whole wallet? To be honest, unless I'm carrying a moneybrick, the loss of the money is nothing compared to canceling/replacing my credit cards and licenses.
Sorry, are you claiming that there's a significant cost to replacing credit cards and IDs? Because that shits free; at worst, you have an opportunity cost lost of being without a credit card for a day or two, and have to spend an afternoon hiking back to the DMV.
Seeing as I never have more than about $80 cash on me, but have a license, a T card, a credit card, and a debit card that would all have to be canceled and/or replaced before the next time I want to take the bus (e.g. to work) or buy booze, yes: it's worse to lose those things than whatever paltry amount of cash I have on me.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

Back in my fundie evangelical days, I used to carry two wallets -- one with money and one with gospel tracts, including gospel tracts that looked like credit cards and money. The theory was that if I was ever mugged, I'd throw the gospel-tract wallet as far away from myself as I could, in the hopes that the mugger would go for the wallet and give me time to get away.

I'm not so sure how good of an idea that was. And in case anyone is wondering, no, I never left a money-shaped gospel tract in lieu of a tip at a restaurant. I used to be a server; I don't do that shit.

The amount of money I'm carrying with me at any time is inconsequential in comparison to the credit cards, ID cards, access badges, and miscellania I have with me at any given time. My government contractor ID badge alone costs the government over $200; that's more money than I ever carry at once. I'd gladly hand over all my cash to save the rest of the stuff I carry.

And I'd gladly hand over everything I carry plus the shirt on my back to avoid killing the mugger. Of course, the threat of killing the mugger isn't necessarily something I feel like I need to avoid, especially because I have no guarantee that he won't simply kill me if given the opportunity. Lethal force is an acceptable response to the reasonable apprehension of lethal violence. I certainly don't want to take the "Maybe he'll just beat me up" bet.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And as we all know all attacks are by muggers who only ever want what cash you happen to have, and who will never get angry and violent if they think you're holding out.
Point acknowledged, but the criteria for me don't have to be as high as "all attacks" and "only ever" and "never". There is always a risk that taking a placatory approach toward an armed mugger is going to be insufficient to avoid harm, but as someone who is in all but name a pacifist*, that's a risk I personally accept.



*I make exceptions to the rule if someone is actively seeking to harm my children.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:And as we all know all attacks are by muggers who only ever want what cash you happen to have, and who will never get angry and violent if they think you're holding out.
Point acknowledged, but the criteria for me don't have to be as high as "all attacks" and "only ever" and "never". There is always a risk that taking a placatory approach toward an armed mugger is going to be insufficient to avoid harm, but as someone who is in all but name a pacifist*, that's a risk I personally accept.



*I make exceptions to the rule if someone is actively seeking to harm my children.

Being a wimp with a low pain tolerance, I personally take a much more proactive approach to preventative violence. Of course, an asshole did once clock me in the face without warning and break my nose, and I didn't react except to split blood and ask the bartender to call the police before excusing myself to the washroom. Heavy on prevention; low on retaliation.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

Preventative violence? If I read that correctly, isn't that just hitting the other person first?
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:39 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:Preventative violence? If I read that correctly, isn't that just hitting the other person first?

Right. If I have a reasonable belief that someone is going to kill or seriously injure me, I am a fan of hitting them first. In the case of a mugger threatening that he will injure/kill me if I don't give him my money, I have no reason to believe he won't injure/kill me anyway if I do give him my money. Hence, preventative violence.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

I see. I can understand your viewpoint, even though I don't personally agree with it.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:29 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Personally I'd never carry more than one credit and one debit card, and I'd never carry any licence with me. Banks can typically replace a stolen card by the following day anyhow.

I'm with Red Hal: 99% of muggers don't want to hurt you they just want money. It's not worth anyone losing a life over - you or them.

It's a different mindset though; From an outsider's pov, the US still has something of a 'spaghetti western' outlook on such things so it would seem - and I say this as someone who has been 'home-invaded'.


Giving the money/stuff is an option. Granted, not every assault is about money. Perhaps they'll be dissatisfied with the amount of cash you have(on me, often none), and use violence to express their displeasure. Perhaps the goal is not money, but violence. The "give them the cash" option will work some of the time, but it certainly won't work all of the time. Also, I'm not going to be very trusting of people who are inherently threatening violence.

Also, I definitely agree that replacing IDs, credit cards, etc is a hassle. I lost a wallet once(my own fault, not a mugger), and it was a bit obnoxious. Now, sure, trading a life for a hassle? Not really something I want to do as policy, but I'm not the one creating the situation where violence is in play, the mugger is. Sure, if I think I can, I'll totally try to talk the situation down. It's not guaranteed to work, tho. If it starts approaching a point of no return, ie, if I feel that if I don't start resisting, I will lose the ability to resist, I have no problem doing so.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:06 pm UTC

If that's the common response, won't muggers shoot first and then rob you? Sure you'll gun down the first generation of muggers that ask first
but what about the second generation?

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:21 pm UTC

I've never known a mugger to shoot first, but I've known muggers to hit first (with a 2 by 4 in the case of the guy I knew) and take your wallet and anything else you might have while you're on the ground. I think they kept hitting him while he was down, but I don't remember the story well enough to stand by that.

I won't say that this can necessarily be extrapolated to all muggings, I've never read any studies on how violent the average mugging turns out to be, but since anecdotes and guesses are all we're dealing with right now I'm certainly not prepared to advocate a "just lie back and try to enjoy it" outlook on them.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:30 pm UTC

If muggers start killing people, the police get more involved. People are much more likely to fight back instead of handing over the cash. Mugging becomes much less profitable.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:48 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The "give them the cash" option will work some of the time, but it certainly won't work all of the time. Also, I'm not going to be very trusting of people who are inherently threatening violence.

I'm not the one creating the situation where violence is in play, the mugger is. Sure, if I think I can, I'll totally try to talk the situation down. It's not guaranteed to work, tho. If it starts approaching a point of no return, ie, if I feel that if I don't start resisting, I will lose the ability to resist, I have no problem doing so.

Yeah, this is the crux of the matter for me too. If injury was linear -- that is, I had an equal chance of resisting no matter what had happened up to that point -- I would be much more inclined to begin by handing over the wallet. Only after the mugger had demonstrated an intent to violence by initiating it would I respond in kind.

But injury isn't linear; getting hit in the face is going to make it much harder for me to defend myself if the mugger decides to keep on going. I don't mind losing my wallet; I do mind losing the ability to avoid sustaining serious harm or death.

This doesn't mean I shoot on sight. Some people say that you shouldn't pull your gun unless you're going to fire it; I think that's stupid.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Cleverbeans » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If muggers start killing people, the police get more involved. People are much more likely to fight back instead of handing over the cash. Mugging becomes much less profitable.

Somehow I don't see a mugger being the type to do a cost/benefit analysis and then concluding that it's the most profitable use of their time. I would assume they're more likely being driven by addiction or desperation, which are significantly less rational motives and the level of police involvement would have little bearing on their desire to mug someone.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:58 pm UTC

Cleverbeans wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If muggers start killing people, the police get more involved. People are much more likely to fight back instead of handing over the cash. Mugging becomes much less profitable.

Somehow I don't see a mugger being the type to do a cost/benefit analysis and then concluding that it's the most profitable use of their time. I would assume they're more likely being driven by addiction or desperation, which are significantly less rational motives and the level of police involvement would have little bearing on their desire to mug someone.

A mugger may not go through the cost/benefit analysis in a conscious, methodical way, but not all rational decisions are made consciously or methodically. A given mugger may be driven by immediate needs, but he will still act instinctively on a risk/fear basis. Leading with lethal force is an immediate escalation, which increases the risk of immediate bodily harm (as the victim is now more likely to respond with lethal force if something goes wrong) and the risk of long-term capture (because a dead victim attracts more attention). Fear of capture and fear of injury will both act to motivate the mugger even if he doesn't consciously analyze these risks.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby addams » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:54 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
Cleverbeans wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If muggers start killing people, the police get more involved. People are much more likely to fight back instead of handing over the cash. Mugging becomes much less profitable.

Somehow I don't see a mugger being the type to do a cost/benefit analysis and then concluding that it's the most profitable use of their time. I would assume they're more likely being driven by addiction or desperation, which are significantly less rational motives and the level of police involvement would have little bearing on their desire to mug someone.

A mugger may not go through the cost/benefit analysis in a conscious, methodical way, but not all rational decisions are made consciously or methodically. A given mugger may be driven by immediate needs, but he will still act instinctively on a risk/fear basis. Leading with lethal force is an immediate escalation, which increases the risk of immediate bodily harm (as the victim is now more likely to respond with lethal force if something goes wrong) and the risk of long-term capture (because a dead victim attracts more attention). Fear of capture and fear of injury will both act to motivate the mugger even if he doesn't consciously analyze these risks.

What do you, really, know about Muggers?
What if that Bastard is getting paid to Mug you?

How much? How much do Muggers get paid?
Some may run the cost/risk equation before doing The Job.

What are the risks of getting paid by the Police to Mug?
Can you trust the Police? To do what? Pay ya'?

What do you get paid with? Muggers get paid?
By whom? The people they mug?

Very symmetrical. We like symmetry. I do.

What else is worth anything to a Mugger?
Imagine the conversation.
Spoiler:
Blue: See that car?
You break the window and take what you can carry and bring it to me;
And, You won't go to jail.

Poor Men: What do we get?

Blue: If you do it right; You don't go to jail.


Are you really advocating opening fire on Muggers?
Oh. Breaking into an automobile is not Mugging.
Mugging is a personal experience.

There are some Thugs that charge extra for that.
They go, "Hee, hee, hee; Such a fun job."
Amateurs are not frightening enough for real face to face Terrorism.

Shooting one of those guys is such a bad idea for so many reasons.
1. It is nearly Halloween. They may be doing Hi-Jinks.
It is mean to kill some idiot for playing. It's Halloween!

2. If he/she/it is not innocent, he/she/it has back up.
Don't fuck with Homeland Security, they have all the back up there is.

3. Having a gun is a fucking pain in the ass.
3. a) You are responsible for that thing 24/7.
Spoiler:
They are easy to lose. Even an MK-47 can get lost.
It is easier to lose a hand gun. Have you ever lost your cell phone?

Other people always want your gun. (fuck)
Don't take your guns to town, Son.


Are you really advocating for the General American Public to take matters into their own hands?

If people are complaining of a boring sex life, that becomes good advice.
If people are afraid of Muggers, that may not be good advice.
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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If muggers start killing people, the police get more involved. People are much more likely to fight back instead of handing over the cash. Mugging becomes much less profitable.


Generally. However, keep in mind that this is both a tragedy of the commons scenario(for the muggers), and requires foresight/impulse control to avert. I'm not sure that violent criminals are terribly good at long term planning and impulse control. Certainly, I wouldn't wish to stake my life on a random one having those skills.

sardia wrote:If that's the common response, won't muggers shoot first and then rob you? Sure you'll gun down the first generation of muggers that ask first
but what about the second generation?


Maybe. I think both sides are perhaps overestimating potential planning here. Sure, some effect exists, and it may dissuade some...AND convince others to arm up. Both effects are certainly possible. However, mugging does not seem to be the sort of activity that attracts those with foresight and strategy. I'd imagine that blind people choosing any option to defend themselves isn't likely to have a noticable affect on crime. At best, if the blind unite and have a particularly vigorous policy of defense, muggers might choose other targets. *shrug* Honestly, that level doesn't even seem probable.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:16 pm UTC

The lack of discernable effect size is a big problem here. I'm sure giving guns to a small group of people wouldn't noticeably affect their personal experience with crime nor the city's. The crime rate is falling every year, the gun owners can't discern the difference between their gun and a non event. Unless we got together a large sample group to randomly carry guns.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The lack of discernable effect size is a big problem here. I'm sure giving guns to a small group of people wouldn't noticeably affect their personal experience with crime nor the city's. The crime rate is falling every year, the gun owners can't discern the difference between their gun and a non event. Unless we got together a large sample group to randomly carry guns.


Long term trends are falling, but oddly enough, violent crime has been significantly up for the past two years consecutively. Now, it's hard to conclusively link that to anything, because there's so many factors involved, and certainly, blind gun owners are a ridiculously tiny factor, but it bears watching. Might be just a temporary setback, or it might herald a return to increasing crime rates. I'd probably be inclined to credit poor economic conditions as at least a contributing factor, though.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:48 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Long term trends are falling, but oddly enough, violent crime has been significantly up for the past two years consecutively. Now, it's hard to conclusively link that to anything, because there's so many factors involved, and certainly, blind gun owners are a ridiculously tiny factor, but it bears watching. Might be just a temporary setback, or it might herald a return to increasing crime rates. I'd probably be inclined to credit poor economic conditions as at least a contributing factor, though.

All the more reason to get universe simulators up and running so that we can test which variables can be altered to effect positive outcomes.

Or just escape, you know.

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Re: Blind and want a gun? Go to Iowa

Postby addams » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:39 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Long term trends are falling, but oddly enough, violent crime has been significantly up for the past two years consecutively. Now, it's hard to conclusively link that to anything, because there's so many factors involved, and certainly, blind gun owners are a ridiculously tiny factor, but it bears watching. Might be just a temporary setback, or it might herald a return to increasing crime rates. I'd probably be inclined to credit poor economic conditions as at least a contributing factor, though.

All the more reason to get universe simulators up and running so that we can test which variables can be altered to effect positive outcomes.

Or just escape, you know.

Simulators are a good idea for training.
Simulators work.

Simulators do not replace real life experience.
First person shooter games are pretty good simulators. right?

You can do research using some of those games.
It would be easy to design a study.

You need a pool of blind guys that are willing.
Of course, you need seeing people, too.

Three groups.
1. Blind guys playing with no previous experience and no help.
2. Blind guys with an unknown assistant.
When we have gun fire we often have screaming spectators.
Just like any other spectator sport. Sometimes the On-Lickers catch the ball.
3. Experienced Blind Guys with an experienced assistant.

Why the Hell would you want to study that?
If you write the proposal correctly, HomeLand Security would have to fund you.
It is a National Security issue.

Can Blind Guys Shoot? How much of a Threat are Blind Guys?
What can be done to protect the Men in Blue from Blind Guys?

What is the guaranteed conclusion?
We believe we will find that Blind Guys with guns are a significant threat.
Because; 8 out of 10 hit the target.

Therefore; Blind Guys should had access to firearms strictly restricted.

I like it. Write it up and see who funds it.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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