So I heard you like youth unemployment...

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Ormurinn
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So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:13 pm UTC

So I upped your minimum wage so you can have record youth unemployment in your lost generation!
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... e-7-pounds

Politically this is a fairly savvy move to pre-empt Milliband, though Milly is actually moving away from cost of living arguments as unemployment keeps dropping.

MPs tend to be smart people, a plurality of them must know this is a stupid idea, but it's perception versus reality. If only economics was compulsory at school.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:46 pm UTC

I'm surprised that the minimum wage in the UK is so low.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby sardia » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

It's $10.31 now and will increase to about 11.44 dollars. It's higher than the federal minimum wage, but lower than some state minimum wages. So how does minimum wage increase affect youth unemployment specifically? Is this only a youth wage requirement?

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:22 pm UTC

The US minimum wage is very low as well. Not surprised by that.

I'm not sure exactly how this will effect youth unemployment since the UK has different (and considerably lower) minimum wages for people under age 20.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:27 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's $10.31 now and will increase to about 11.44 dollars. It's higher than the federal minimum wage, but lower than some state minimum wages. So how does minimum wage increase affect youth unemployment specifically? Is this only a youth wage requirement?


A minimum wage is effectively lopping off the lowest-skilled and least experienced sector of the workforce. Young people (self included) have less work experience and fewer marketable skills than older people. Therefore minimum wage rises disproportionately harm young people.

The UK already has problems with businesses not hiring young people for the above reasons, this will only make things worse.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:07 pm UTC

You are not taking into account the possibility that many areas are effectively monopsonies or oligopsonies. In those scenarios, raising the minimum wage increases the employment rate.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You are not taking into account the possibility that many areas are effectively monopsonies or oligopsonies. In those scenarios, raising the minimum wage increases the employment rate.


The only monopsony I'm aware of in the UK is the NHS, and perhaps the mines in some mining towns. The NHS is only a monopsony for certain types of highly-skilled labour - hospital cleaners, porters and orderlies can get the same jobs outside the NHS.

The problem of oligopsonies is much less pronounced for minimum wage labour, because there are more potential buyers for unskilled than skilled labour, as the latter is more specialised. There are a lot more buyers of portering labour than, say, aromatherapist labour.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby PeteP » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:35 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:MPs tend to be smart people, a plurality of them must know this is a stupid idea, but it's perception versus reality. If only economics was compulsory at school.

Ah so I guess economists now all agree about the effect of minimum wage? Finally! What study decided the conflict? Just last year there where papers about "Why does the Minimum Wage Have no discernible effect on employment?".
Or what makes you so sure that with compulsory economics suddenly everyone would agree with you?

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:57 pm UTC

Minimum wages are weird in that increasing wages shifts the demand for labor curve itself to the right. Not enough feedback to produce INFINITE WEALTH the way some argue.

Efficiency wages are just as strange. The firm makes the most profit at the efficiency wage, which is somewhat significantly above the equillibrium wage. But that's not necessarily the wage that generates the most total wealth.

Consider a city where the only goods/currency is apples. An orchard can pay workers 10 apples/day and they will produce 12. If paid 15, they'll produce 20. Pay 20, they'll produce 26. Pay 25, they'll produce 28. 30, and they'll produce 30. The efficiency wage is where the company gets the most apples per apple paid, which occurs at 15 apples. But the firm gets the most profit per worker at 20 apples. However, society gets the most apples at 30 (any more and the firm WILL close).

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:30 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:MPs tend to be smart people, a plurality of them must know this is a stupid idea, but it's perception versus reality. If only economics was compulsory at school.

Ah so I guess economists now all agree about the effect of minimum wage? Finally! What study decided the conflict? Just last year there where papers about "Why does the Minimum Wage Have no discernible effect on employment?".
Or what makes you so sure that with compulsory economics suddenly everyone would agree with you?


Yes, small minimum wage rises in highly complex economies produce only small effects, often disappearing into background noise. Even your own source seems to err on the side of there being a negative effect on employment, albeit a small one.

What we really need is a model system with a single dominant industry employing mainly low skill workers, and a significant rise in the minimum wage...

http://m.acton.org/pub/commentary/2011/ ... ican-samoa

And we do. Single change, dramatic effect, little white noise from the wider economy.

I hate austrian-style a priori reasoning, but in the case of the minimum wage for low skill workers it holds. If an employee provides labour worth x to a business, the business must be able to charge a minimum of x+y+z per unit of labour involved in its product, where y is non employment costs and z is an amount of profit consunumerate with the risk involved in the business.

If we have a marginal business a for which x+y+z is 30 units, and x and z are both 10, a minimum wage of greater than ten units per unit of labour causes that job to be lost.

That relationship breaks down for skilled labour, but skilled labour doesn't make minimum wage.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby firechicago » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:29 pm UTC

American Samoa is a very weird outlier, because they built a huge section of their economy specifically on arbitraging loopholes American minimum wage and trade law. American Samoa counted as part of America for the purposes of trade law (including being able to attach the all-important "Made in America" label) but wasn't bound by American minimum wage laws. So the Samoan economy was based on low-skill manufacturing (mostly garment work if memory serves) that was outsourced from the States. When the loophole was closed, the reason for manufacturing there disappeared, and the results were very bad for the Samoan economy.

In a large, high-wage economy, on the other hand, those jobs have already been outsourced. There just aren't that many jobs that companies haven't outsourced at a £6 minimum wage that suddenly become profitable to outsource at a £7 minimum wage, because it's hard to outsource cleaning toilets or flipping burgers (though there's work on automating that second one.)

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:51 am UTC

Increasing the minimum wage should have a negative effect on unemployment, all other things being equal. But another thing to consider is societal based wealth distribution. Increasing the minimum age will mean those employed will earn more money, which is pretty important if it enables them to buy an education for themselves and their children.

If, (people employed)*(old minimum wage) < (less people employed)*(new minimum wage), then there is a fairly strong argument to enact a higher minimum wage, get more wealth into the lower classes.

The ideal scenario is to have a high minimum wage with low unemployment (As in Australia). But which do you do first? It might be a good thing if the newer generations are made aware that unskilled jobs are in short supply, so that they skill up. And that their parents who are earning minimum wage are earning enough to pay for those skills. It feels very chicken and eggy but the answer seems far from obvious.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:12 am UTC

firechicago wrote:In a large, high-wage economy, on the other hand, those jobs have already been outsourced. There just aren't that many jobs that companies haven't outsourced at a £6 minimum wage that suddenly become profitable to outsource at a £7 minimum wage, because it's hard to outsource cleaning toilets or flipping burgers (though there's work on automating that second one.)


Don't forget a Japanese toilet that cleans itself may, however, become more profitable.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Belial » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:40 am UTC

And when those things inevitably glitch out, there will be lucrative career in toilet IT troubleshooting.
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They/them

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:57 am UTC

An AI crapshooter?

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:11 am UTC

Belial wrote:And when those things inevitably glitch out, there will be lucrative career in toilet IT troubleshooting.


Crapload of money in that.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:06 am UTC

firechicago wrote:In a large, high-wage economy, on the other hand, those jobs have already been outsourced. There just aren't that many jobs that companies haven't outsourced at a £6 minimum wage that suddenly become profitable to outsource at a £7 minimum wage, because it's hard to outsource cleaning toilets or flipping burgers (though there's work on automating that second one.)


You might not be able to outsource or automate some jobs, but that doesn't mean they won't disappear - fast food for instance needs to stay cheap in order to be competitive with sit down restaurants. If the state arbitrarily raises their labour costs to the point that they have to charge a price greater than their product is worth to their current marginal consumer they will have to close down.

My girlfriend makes minimum wage in a fast food restaurant - this isnt just a theoretical concern for me.

Minimum wage also increases entry costs, hurts small businesses more than larger ones, and eliminates the very bottom of the jobs market making it more difficult to get a first work experience.

BattleMoose wrote:Increasing the minimum wage should have a negative effect on unemployment, all other things being equal. But another thing to consider is societal based wealth distribution. Increasing the minimum age will mean those employed will earn more money, which is pretty important if it enables them to buy an education for themselves and their children.

If, (people employed)*(old minimum wage) < (less people employed)*(new minimum wage), then there is a fairly strong argument to enact a higher minimum wage, get more wealth into the lower classes.

The ideal scenario is to have a high minimum wage with low unemployment (As in Australia). But which do you do first? It might be a good thing if the newer generations are made aware that unskilled jobs are in short supply, so that they skill up. And that their parents who are earning minimum wage are earning enough to pay for those skills. It feels very chicken and eggy but the answer seems far from obvious.


Why does wealth distribution matter at all, barring envy? The total wealth of society, and that everyone has a sufficient amount of wealth to survive, are more important surely? Making people economically equal isn't an end in and of itself.

I can't really give credence to the idea that because the top end of my country can afford yachts and stately homes, i'm somehow deserving of a greater share of the pie than I can earn under my own power.

I don't know what your tangent about employment costs is - education is free at the point of delivery for UK citizens up to 16, and then a ridiculously generous loan system that you don't start paying back till you're making a good wage is offerd for universities. People don't need to afford an education.

As to the ideal situation - yes low unemployment and yes high average wages, but the latter is possible without a high minimum wage. Germany for instance has no minimum wage and a higher median income than the U.K.

The ideal situation is to give people the choice to sell their labour for however much they want for it, in a system with ample opportunity to skill up.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:29 am UTC

Isn't there a religion subforum or something for sermons like this?
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby leady » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:30 am UTC

Stupid smarmy Osborne playing stupid bad politics - the tories are going to get creamed at the election if they continue to shift left as all there support falls through to UKIP who are also savaging Labours working class base. Which will mean we get a sliver spoon public shool champagne socialist in charge * shudder *

Yeah I can't really see a mechanism as to how forcing higher minimum wages doesn't cause unemployment or underemployment. I can think of lots as to why its hard to show a straight causality line.

Its very telling that German without a minimum wage still has industry (so does the UK, but not unskilled). That recent C4 program showing how horribly industrious german workers in a factory are compared to the UK was pretty telling (Germans get their heads down fo 7 hours with minimal non-work stuff, UK has 12 hours of worktime, 5 hours productive - all stats made up :) )

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Darryl » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:05 am UTC

Ormurinn wrote:So I upped your minimum wage so you can have record youth unemployment in your lost generation!
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... e-7-pounds

Politically this is a fairly savvy move to pre-empt Milliband, though Milly is actually moving away from cost of living arguments as unemployment keeps dropping.

MPs tend to be smart people, a plurality of them must know this is a stupid idea, but it's perception versus reality. If only economics was compulsory at school.

You're missing a key fact here. He's raising the full adult (a.k.a. 21+, non-apprentice) minimum wage to 7 GBP. Source and quote from the source:
Osborne told the BBC that the hourly minimum wage would need to rise to 7 pounds ($11.44) by 2015 for workers aged over 21, up from 6.31 pounds now, for its value to return to its level before the financial crisis.


Minimum wage increases causing youth unemployment would need to involve increasing the minimum wages for youths.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:22 am UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Why does wealth distribution matter at all, barring envy?


I am not too familiar with all of the details but there is a great deal of research out there indicating that unequal distribution of wealth can be very harmful to society. Here's a TED talk on the matter. http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

But the issue isn't primarily about wealth distribution but protecting unskilled workers from exploitation.




The ideal situation is to give people the choice to sell their labour for however much they want for it,


My girlfriend makes minimum wage in a fast food restaurant - this isnt just a theoretical concern for me.


So lets give your girlfriend the choice to sell her labour for how much she wants. And critically her employer can also choose to pay how much they want. Its safe to assume than because she is being paid minimum wage, that the only reason she is getting paid that much is because of minimum wage laws. And most likely in the absence of minimum wage laws she would get paid less. Potentially a lot less.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby leady » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:36 am UTC

Actually when the minimum wage was brought in 10 years ago ish, it had practically zero effect as it was already below typical service job levels. Even in the states I believe table service folk get a combined wage in excess of min wage. Ergo the minimum wage has no effect on these workers. Who it does affect are the out of sight workers doing farm work, line work etc.

The service jobs with say a laxidasical view of employment law also weren't affected - and I suspect still aren't to this day.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:55 am UTC

Waiters and waitresses don't get the minimum wage at all. Farm workers may or may not be eligible.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:59 pm UTC

Darryl wrote:Minimum wage increases causing youth unemployment would need to involve increasing the minimum wages for youths.


I'd consider people to be "young people" below the age of 25. According to wiki this is the most common definition.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_un ... ed_Kingdom

Its interesting though, that minimum wage has to be lower for younger workers to avoid pricing them out of the job market. How many people fall through the cracks? What about the worker who's labour is worth £4 an hour? They can't get any experience to increase their labour value, because its been made illegal to employ them at a rate that doesn't lose money.
BattleMoose wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Why does wealth distribution matter at all, barring envy?


I am not too familiar with all of the details but there is a great deal of research out there indicating that unequal distribution of wealth can be very harmful to society. Here's a TED talk on the matter. http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html


I'm aware of that correlation, but I'm not convinced there's any causation.

BattleMoose wrote:But the issue isn't primarily about wealth distribution but protecting unskilled workers from exploitation.


In a mutually agreed voluntary exchange there isn't any exploitation. This is doubly true in a system with generous welfare, where you're not even being "exploited" by your need to provide for yourself.
BattleMoose wrote:
The ideal situation is to give people the choice to sell their labour for however much they want for it,


My girlfriend makes minimum wage in a fast food restaurant - this isnt just a theoretical concern for me.


So lets give your girlfriend the choice to sell her labour for how much she wants. And critically her employer can also choose to pay how much they want. Its safe to assume than because she is being paid minimum wage, that the only reason she is getting paid that much is because of minimum wage laws. And most likely in the absence of minimum wage laws she would get paid less. Potentially a lot less.


Potentially! The minimum they can pay her is the marginal value of one server though, if they pay less than that they lose employees to other restaurants.

The marginal value of one server must be fairly near the current minimum wage, or else they wouldn't be able to compensate (principally by understaffing, in her experience)

She was unemployed for three months in the U.K's shitty job market because too few people are hiring - if there wasn't a price floor in labour, shed have been hired sooner.

A slightly lower wage in exchange for a more active job market is a good trade for the unemployed and people looking to change jobs - not to mention the positive effects for the entire country.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby leady » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:08 pm UTC

oh and throw in the fact that upper middle class kids can get and critically afford all the internships at zero wage, which is a double shafting for poorer kids (not such a bad thing for media, awful in legal etc)

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:41 pm UTC

I think the minimum wage could be safely raised to whatever a giant union of all the low-skilled workers could collectively bargain for...

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:54 pm UTC

If only there were some sort of political party organising the low-paid workers nationally.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby martingus » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:24 am UTC

It is best o work while studying. Sometimes it is harder for youth to cope up with the pressure at work. Tuning up your resume to wash away popular mistakes is vital. This is because you could lose your career any day now. Rather than rolling the dice, why not clean up the dirty areas of your CV?

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Beltayn » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:33 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:You might not be able to outsource or automate some jobs, but that doesn't mean they won't disappear - fast food for instance needs to stay cheap in order to be competitive with sit down restaurants. If the state arbitrarily raises their labour costs to the point that they have to charge a price greater than their product is worth to their current marginal consumer they will have to close down.


I don't really understand how this is an argument against raising the minimum wage. Sure, every equilibrium will necessarily favor certain business models over others, and changes in the equilibrium will alter the conditions and result in winners and losers among competing business models. So, in concrete terms, a minimum wage increase may hurt fast food and help sit-down restaurants.

So what?

Unless you are making the argument that this minor policy twerk will result in people consuming less food overall, this particular change shouldn't hurt the economy. People will still buy food. They may simply buy food from different people than they were before.

And, to be quite honest, if there is a way to change the market incentives so that it is less attractive to buy fast food, I don't see that as a bad thing.

Minimum wage also increases entry costs, hurts small businesses more than larger ones, and eliminates the very bottom of the jobs market making it more difficult to get a first work experience.


I don't see why this would be the case either. Small businesses tend to have less specialized roles due to their few employees needing to be able to handle most aspects of the business without support staff. It is large businesses like Walmart that can break things down to the point where someone's entire job can be to greet people at the front door for minimum wage.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby leady » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:39 pm UTC

Yeah, make those poor fatties pay more for their food :)

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:44 pm UTC

Eliminating fast food doesn't mean people will necessarily be eating healthier. Fast casual places are often just as bad health-wise. Nobody is gonna say that a mcdonalds burger is good for ya on the daily, but neither is Five Guys.

And speed of food isn't inherently a bad thing. The drive-through does serve a useful function. Sure, our society definitely has an issue with weight, and part of this is due to prepared food, but structural changes shouldn't be brushed off as trivial.

As noted, traditionally minimum wage jobs have trended younger, with a large proportion of them being entry level positions to the work force. Currently, we already have an issue with this, as the crappy economy has hit low income/new to workforce people harder than most....because it's hard to make the jump to a great job if you have no experience. Some degree of entry level jobs is a good thing, and killing a significant sector off(or more likely, reducing it heavily, but not entirely killing it) is going to have a cost.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby firechicago » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:As noted, traditionally minimum wage jobs have trended younger.

It is not true that minimum wage jobs have been trending younger. Actually, the average age of minimum wage workers has been going up consistently for decades, although minimum wage are still somewhat younger than the overall working population. The average age for a minimum wage worker in the US is 35. 88% of all minimum wage workers are 20 or older. 19% of all children have at least one parent working for less than $10 an hour.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby sardia » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:46 pm UTC

Now we are just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. When people suggest minimum wage hikes the are actually thinking about welfare but rewording it cuz welfare is a dirty word.
Edit. Not sure how combining welfare payments with no minimum wage would work. I think it could have a net positive but I have no evidence.

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

Welfare payments with no minimum wage, or insufficient minimum wage, is a subsidy for industries that use low-skill labour.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:23 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Its interesting though, that minimum wage has to be lower for younger workers to avoid pricing them out of the job market. How many people fall through the cracks? What about the worker who's labour is worth £4 an hour? They can't get any experience to increase their labour value, because its been made illegal to employ them at a rate that doesn't lose money.


I'm willing to bet that there's less such marginal jobs than you might think.

Try thinking of it this way: with minimum wage laws it's in the companies interest to get you from the point where your labour is worth £4 to the point where your labour is worth >minimum wage as fast as humanly possible.

If they can get away with only paying you £3 pounds then it's not nearly as urgent.

£3 an hour jobs are unlikely to be high skill jobs where you become significantly more valuable over time.
Training time for most minimum wage jobs is < 3 days and your value to the company rises incredibly slowly if it does at all.
After 6 years manning a cash desk at poundland you're not all that much more valuable than someone who's been manning it for 6 months, 6 weeks or 6 days.

The myth that everything would be amazing if we did away with minimum wage and allow $1 an hour jobs tends to be more popular with people in high skill professions where value rises sharply. A programmer with 5 years experience is vastly more valuable than a fresh graduate. ditto lawyers, doctors and engineers.

If your whole job can be explained before the end of your first week and you're generating $1 an hour on your first day it's unlikely that you'll ever be generating more than 2 or 3 bucks an hour doing the same thing. And so you end up with an underclass forever doomed to live far bellow the poverty line on far less than it takes to support themselves. Your belief that working a $1 an hour job will automatically raise your value to reasonable level is little more than a marketing campaign by exploitative employers.

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Another day older and deeper in debt.


With a > living wage people have the chance to spend some resources on upskilling since they have vastly higher incentives to invest in themselves than the company does.

Though with the current government backed pseudo-slavery scheme Poundland can make even larger profits by firing you then taking you back to the same post as "work experience" while paying you nothing, getting a pile of cash from the government for "training" you and then replacing you with another such pleb at the end of the "work experience"

the lower minimum for very young workers has a second reason: minimum wage laws aren't just about company value. they're also about a living wage. Children are very unlikely to be supporting themselves so they don't need a living wage.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby leady » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:40 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Welfare payments with no minimum wage, or insufficient minimum wage, is a subsidy for industries that use low-skill labour.


No its really not. Its the choice of job here or no job (or exported job

I'm willing to bet that there's less such marginal jobs than you might think.


And yet the UK has only had a minimum wage law since 1997 and I don't remember the grinding widespread poverty. On a similar note if you've ever had agency work and wondered how that works, those agencies already get upto a 50% mark up on the hourly minimum wage (back in 1999 ish at least). What that tells me, is that even unskilled labour in the UK is worth considerably more than minimum wage for dependable workers and that avoided UK regulation (i.e. being able to fire ) is worth one hell of lot to employers

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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby freezeblade » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:53 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Welfare payments with no minimum wage, or insufficient minimum wage, is a subsidy for industries that use low-skill labour.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-03/are-american-taxpayers-subsidizing-walmarts-low-wages
you mean like that?
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby paulisa » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:08 pm UTC

To clear up a little misunderstanding from further up, Germany kinda-sorta has a minimum wage. What it in fact has is minimum wages for sectors, which are negotiated by representatives of the workers (usually unions) and the employers of the sector. The contract usually also sets things such as allowable work times (per week/year), under what limits someone can be fired or quit the job, and sometimes specific safety regulations. These contracts are binding for both sides and renegotiated regularly.

Some sectors do not have these contracts and some people would like a general minimum wage to deal with these, but there was no majority for this after the last election. The minimum wage would probably be far below most of the sectoral wages.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm UTC

leady (edited) wrote:job here or exported job
Yes, that is a common reason for subsidy in an industry.
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Re: So I heard you like youth unemployment...

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:46 pm UTC

leady wrote:And yet the UK has only had a minimum wage law since 1997 and I don't remember the grinding widespread poverty.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Boards_Act_1909

The Trade Boards Act 1909 was a piece of social legislation passed in the United Kingdom in 1909. It provided for the creation of boards which could set minimum wage criteria that were legally enforceable.[1] It was expanded and updated in the Trade Boards Act 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Boards_Act_1918

The Trade Boards Act 1918 (c 32) was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that heavily shaped the post-World War I system of UK labour law, particularly regarding collective bargaining and the establishment of minimum wages. It was the result of the second of five Whitley Committee reports.[1]

Wages Councils Act 1945

Wages Councils Act 1959

Terms and Conditions of Employment Act 1959

Wages Councils Act 1979
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