The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

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Re: The Threat To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:43 pm UTC

sardia wrote:When the robot apocalypse comes

Please. It is a robot Holocaust.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:54 pm UTC

http://jacquesmattheij.com/another-way- ... vs-alphago

Lee Sedol used about 20 Watts of power to operate. By contrast, AlphaGo runs on a whopping 1920 CPUs and another 280 GPUs for an estimated power consumption of approximately 1 MW (200 W per CPU and 200 W per GPU). That’s 50,000 times as much power as the amount of power that Lee Sedol’s brain uses and the two are not quite evenly matched but it is close enough to use for comparison.


Not to hate on the result at all, since even a huge network of computers has never beaten a Go Professional before... but damn. Good to see some numbers on AlphaGo's underlying hardware.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby morriswalters » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:27 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The idea of NLP AIs is for the bots to discover this sort of stuff on their own.
I'm not an AI specialist, I just talk about it. But if that is the goal it is isn't surprising to me that things didn't turn out well. I was under the impression that deep learning looked for patterns we can't see. I wouldn't suppose the phrase "I hate you!" could be inferred in a value driven sense. I could see where you could learn the words, but how would it learn the social implications of the words? So for Instance, that phrase shows up in certain ways and is always followed by certain responses. But if the AI doesn't have any motivating emotions , all you get is a response that parrots the form. Which as it turns out is just what the internet showed to Microsoft.

I presume that what they actually want is a Siri that can respond understandably to questions in its response envelope, so to speak. Demonstrated with the difference between the question
"Are you sick?" and "How do you feel".
ucim wrote:Also, different "parents" lead to different "children", which brings another experiment to mind. Set several of these things loose, "trained" (within some constraints) by different parents, and see how influential "parents" are. How easy is it to make (and keep) an NLP chatbot Republican, or analytical, or soft-natured?
You mean create a FrankenTrump?

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:32 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:You mean create a FrankenTrump?
If he failed at steaks and wines, why not try hot dogs? :)

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:13 pm UTC

Image

Remember, today is the future. When you get onto a plane and are held hostage by a man wearing a suicide belt bomb, be sure to take a selfie. And smile for the camera damn it.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:12 pm UTC

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/0 ... on-deficit
A nation doesn't reach world leadership in science and technology overnight. It takes decades of strong and continued investment. The conspicuous absence of rockets roaring to the high frontier from our shores can be either a bell tolling the end of an era or a wakeup call. As past Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England saw quite clearly, "The greatest long-term threat to U.S. national security is not terrorists wielding a nuclear or biological weapon, but the erosion of America's place as a world leader in science and technology."

Not to crimp the future threads style but the greatest danger to the US future innovation is budget cuts. If you want to keep living in the future, gotta pay up.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jseah » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:17 pm UTC

Trebla wrote:While it's a pretty amazing advancement, it sadly lends (anecdotal) credence to the skeptics who decry that "bad people" will teach A.I. to do bad things.

You don't even need an evil mastermind! Randoms on the internet will do the evil brainwashing for you.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:02 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
Trebla wrote:While it's a pretty amazing advancement, it sadly lends (anecdotal) credence to the skeptics who decry that "bad people" will teach A.I. to do bad things.

You don't even need an evil mastermind! Randoms on the internet will do the evil brainwashing for you.

Why said they were random? Maybe they were brainwashed by a smaller group of people, who were themselves brainwashed by an even smaller group of people? Perhaps this pattern continues until ultimately all the evilness on the internet originates from one person? Is it possible that this person has a life long desire of controlling all of the world's governments? In addition, what are the chances this person has been bribed by the Lizard Overlords of Venus into forces humanity to heat the Earth? On the other hand, Is it possible that I am only asking questions so that I can give information to my audience while being able to claim that I was not lying if it is relieved that this information is incorrect. Finally, the most important question is, how often do politicians/ bigots use this tactic?

P.S. Clearly a third person is holding the camera, so this that is not a selfie.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby speising » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:21 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:P.S. Clearly a third person is holding the camera, so this that is not a selfie.

But language is evolving, you prescriptivist!

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Mambrino » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:09 pm UTC


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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:15 pm UTC

Ubuntu on Windows 10? Great, now I can run two different spyware operating systems at the same time!
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Flumble » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:26 pm UTC

Does this mean it'll come to my phone as well? :o

It's already a spyware-ridden block of metal, better have it have some functionality too.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:12 am UTC

sardia wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/29/472238871/stuck-on-earth-the-u-s-innovation-deficit
A nation doesn't reach world leadership in science and technology overnight. It takes decades of strong and continued investment. The conspicuous absence of rockets roaring to the high frontier from our shores can be either a bell tolling the end of an era or a wakeup call. As past Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England saw quite clearly, "The greatest long-term threat to U.S. national security is not terrorists wielding a nuclear or biological weapon, but the erosion of America's place as a world leader in science and technology."

Not to crimp the future threads style but the greatest danger to the US future innovation is budget cuts. If you want to keep living in the future, gotta pay up.

I agree with the direction your post takes.
I disagree with its conclusion.

The inspired mind is what is missing.
The culture of the USA led by its Media does not value knowledge.

The culture of the USA values money.
Just throw more money is the USA way.

It might take a little money to inspire the minds of people.
Our shocking 24/7 News cycle inspires us, everyday.

The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of our nation.
The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of the world.

To be fair, the 24/7 News Cycle does tell tweens to Not post nude selfies.
It is a long way from there to telling them, "Do take and post Algebra!"
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:21 pm UTC

Spoiler:
addams wrote:
sardia wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/29/472238871/stuck-on-earth-the-u-s-innovation-deficit
A nation doesn't reach world leadership in science and technology overnight. It takes decades of strong and continued investment. The conspicuous absence of rockets roaring to the high frontier from our shores can be either a bell tolling the end of an era or a wakeup call. As past Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England saw quite clearly, "The greatest long-term threat to U.S. national security is not terrorists wielding a nuclear or biological weapon, but the erosion of America's place as a world leader in science and technology."

Not to crimp the future threads style but the greatest danger to the US future innovation is budget cuts. If you want to keep living in the future, gotta pay up.

I agree with the direction your post takes.
I disagree with its conclusion.

The inspired mind is what is missing.
The culture of the USA led by its Media does not value knowledge.

The culture of the USA values money.
Just throw more money is the USA way.

It might take a little money to inspire the minds of people.
Our shocking 24/7 News cycle inspires us, everyday.

The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of our nation.
The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of the world.

To be fair, the 24/7 News Cycle does tell tweens to Not post nude selfies.
It is a long way from there to telling them, "Do take and post Algebra!"


I completely agree with you. One of the few xkcd comics I hate is this one. I think a lot of Western societies' problems are rooted in our obsession with material wealth. One of the clearest examples of this is how sexuality is exploitative for profit, which leads to some really messed up situations.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:48 pm UTC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016 ... ce-drones/
Why bother to create drones when you can just implant machines into living things and control their every action instead? I for one, am terrified of our hybrid robot overlords.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:55 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Spoiler:
addams wrote:
sardia wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/29/472238871/stuck-on-earth-the-u-s-innovation-deficit
A nation doesn't reach world leadership in science and technology overnight. It takes decades of strong and continued investment. The conspicuous absence of rockets roaring to the high frontier from our shores can be either a bell tolling the end of an era or a wakeup call. As past Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England saw quite clearly, "The greatest long-term threat to U.S. national security is not terrorists wielding a nuclear or biological weapon, but the erosion of America's place as a world leader in science and technology."

Not to crimp the future threads style but the greatest danger to the US future innovation is budget cuts. If you want to keep living in the future, gotta pay up.

I agree with the direction your post takes.
I disagree with its conclusion.

The inspired mind is what is missing.
The culture of the USA led by its Media does not value knowledge.

The culture of the USA values money.
Just throw more money is the USA way.

It might take a little money to inspire the minds of people.
Our shocking 24/7 News cycle inspires us, everyday.

The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of our nation.
The Media is not inspiring us to become better citizens of the world.

To be fair, the 24/7 News Cycle does tell tweens to Not post nude selfies.
It is a long way from there to telling them, "Do take and post Algebra!"


I completely agree with you. One of the few xkcd comics I hate is this one. I think a lot of Western societies' problems are rooted in our obsession with material wealth. One of the clearest examples of this is how sexuality is exploitative for profit, which leads to some really messed up situations.

oh, dear...
I might disagree with you about the 1st comic.
Spoiler:
The hover over said, "My decal has no adults.
Just a sea of little girls closing in on a single cat."

I think the man was illuminating a truth.

Americans are polarized. This is not the only truth.
And; Most importantly our Realities are Not Binary.

In fact, What Everyone else thinks is THE Issue,
May not even make it onto our/my radar screen.

I'm a little worried about the Stupid Cat.
If he/she is an adult, it will be fine.

If it is a kitten....
He Said its a Cat!

I do not disagree with you about the second comic.
Children are exposed to Porn.
It is common, if not normal.
Spoiler:
I learned this on the internet.
This is a Ted Talk about Porn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU
This is Not going to be The End of the World.

This will require choosing with the mind to satisfy the heart
while fighting a body flooded with hormones and peer and social pressure.

Men will be richly rewarded for making a prudish choice.
But; Why would ya' says ...most guys? Especially the very young?

Here is another Ted Talk about Porn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ_QfP2mhU

(shrug) I was curious.
I wonder:Do I know more, now?

oh, dear..
We Live in The Future!
It is Every Kind of Wonderful!

But; It seems we brought
our problems of the past with us.

To Educate and Inspire the Common Man?
Is that our problem?

We can do something to help ourselves and each other. We have the tools.
We have the tools to do more harm and more good to more people than ever before.

(i am only considering the Tools of Media.)

oh, It is a perfect Spring Day here in the future.
We owe a great deal to the people of The Past.

Thank you for Banning DDT, People of The Past.

Our water is good to drink and the birds have returned.
Thank you for this Moment in Future, People of the Past.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:43 pm UTC

addams wrote:Americans are polarized. This is not the only truth.
And; Most importantly our Realities are Not Binary.

In fact, What Everyone else thinks is THE Issue,
May not even make it onto our/my radar screen.

I am not saying that capitalism is the cause of all evil or that Adam Smith is sold his soul to demons. I am saying that modern, Western capitalism exasperates problems that are significant in there own right. Look at it this way, society has said that graphic torture scenes are inappropriate; therefor T.V. networks do not show graphic torture scenes. On the other hand, society has said that graphic sex scenes are appropriate; therefor T.V. networks do show graphic sex scenes. Another example is that because society values emotional response more than intellectual content, reporters focus on scandals involving politicians instead of those politicians' policies. Again, capitalism did not create this problem, but is still responsible for making it much worse.


addams wrote:(shrug) I was curious.
I wonder:Do I know more, now?

I am going to assume that this was a typo and you meant, "Do you know more, now?" I have seen that first video before, but not the second one. Putting them together send a really powerful message. This is because the first focuses on the scientific concerns and the second focuses on the philosophical/humanitarian concerns. I have actually done a lot of research on sex addiction and pornography's effects on the human brain in my own time. What made me interested in sex addiction is that it is unique, because the high is not caused by a chemical*. In addition, it is unlike gambling addiction in that sex is inherently healthy while gambling is not.

It is also a weird legal issue (at least, it is in the US). The best example of this Ashcroft v. ACLU. This case was about a law that made it illegal to run a pornographic sites, unless verification of some time is used to prevent minors from accessing the site. The Supreme Court ruled that the law was unconstitutional. The majority opinion was this huge thing that gave ~5 argument, each requiring a huge amount of explanation and jurisprudence work**. The minority opinion can be summarized in 3 sentences. "This law only effects obscene material. Obscene material is not protected by the First Amendment. Therefor this law is constitutional."



*Technically, everything is a chemical, including the hormones in our brains; however, you know what I mean so who cares if I made a mistake.

**The only one of these argument I agree with became invalid when GeoIP was invented.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby elasto » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:41 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I have actually done a lot of research on sex addiction and pornography's effects on the human brain in my own time. What made me interested in sex addiction is that it is unique, because the high is not caused by a chemical*. In addition, it is unlike gambling addiction in that sex is inherently healthy while gambling is not.

Huh? Some people are addicted to extreme sports for the adrenaline rush. Some people are addicted to video games. Sex is hardly the only type of addiction that isn't based on injecting a chemical that, after all, only mimics natural chemicals produced in the brain when having sex, bungee jumping or achieving a perfect head-shot kill from 400 yards.

And most everything is healthy in moderation - from sex to video games to gambling what you can afford to lose. And anything can be destructive to your life when taken to excess - even, I dunno, transcendental meditation.

Bit of a weird line you're drawing in the sand there.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:17 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I am saying that modern, Western capitalism exasperates problems that are significant in there own right.
Exacerbates. Misuse of words is exasperating. Ditto effect vs affect (yes, there are a few tricky cases; "the minority opinion" wasn't one. :)

jewish_scientist wrote:society has said that graphic torture scenes are inappropriate; therefor T.V. networks do not show graphic torture scenes. On the other hand, society has said that graphic sex scenes are appropriate; therefor T.V. networks do show graphic sex scenes.
"Appropriate" is the wrong word here. In fact, in the use to which it's often put in this context, it's more of a euphamism than anything.

The idea is more that people should have the right to choose to see them, not that society "approves" of them. In the balance between authoritarian censorship and permissive anarchy, graphic torture falls on one side and graphic sex falls on the other side. And even graphic sex is somewhat restricted based on circumstance.

There's a huge difference between "I don't want to do it" and "I don't want you to be able to do it." It is reflective of whether one values individual freedom more, or (a specific legally enforced) society more.

jewish_scientist wrote:...because society values emotional response more than intellectual content, reporters focus on scandals...
Not "society" but "a sufficient number of individuals". Capitalism (by its nature) caters to individuals, not to society.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:17 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:I have actually done a lot of research on sex addiction and pornography's effects on the human brain in my own time. What made me interested in sex addiction is that it is unique, because the high is not caused by a chemical*. In addition, it is unlike gambling addiction in that sex is inherently healthy while gambling is not.

Huh? Some people are addicted to extreme sports for the adrenaline rush. Some people are addicted to video games. Sex is hardly the only type of addiction that isn't based on injecting a chemical that, after all, only mimics natural chemicals produced in the brain when having sex, bungee jumping or achieving a perfect head-shot kill from 400 yards.

And most everything is healthy in moderation - from sex to video games to gambling what you can afford to lose. And anything can be destructive to your life when taken to excess - even, I dunno, transcendental meditation.

Bit of a weird line you're drawing in the sand there.


Yeah, my first thought while reading that was "food". Food's kind of necessary, and generally healthy to eat, but there are totally biological feedback mechanisms to have problems with eating too much, and it kind of results in the usual addiction feedback loop, yes.

It is strange what people call "chemicals", yes.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ijuin » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:57 pm UTC

The biggest single flaw that I see with Capitalism is that money becomes the measure of everything--anything that can not be monetized is regarded as worthless. You could possess the most beautiful thing in the world, but it's only worth what you can charge other people for it.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:41 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:The biggest single flaw that I see with Capitalism is that money becomes the measure of everything--anything that can not be monetized is regarded as worthless. You could possess the most beautiful thing in the world, but it's only worth what you can charge other people for it.
...which is why capitalism by itself is a rotten form of governance, private or public. It needs reins.

But the biggest single strength of capitalism is that, as a fundamental driving force, it is roughly aligned with (most) individuals' own driving forces. It runs itself.

Capitalism needs a steering wheel, but the other governing philosophies need an engine as well, as they work against individuals' natural desires.

To the extent that you work against individual's natural desires, you will have greater difficulty in achieving success, however it is measured. Addiction co-opts an individual's natural desires, and so deserves special consideration. But this does not necessarily imply proscription, as some addictions are good.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:00 am UTC

Gee, jewish_scientist;
It IS easy to be misunderstood.

addams wrote:
(shrug) I was curious.
I wonder:Do I know more, now?


jewish_scientist Wrote:
I am going to assume that this was a typo and you meant, "Do you know more, now?"

Nope. I was wondering; Do I know more?
I, kind'a, expect you to know more than I do.

How did we 'get' here??
oh...We were chatting about culture and media.

Spoiler:
Our culture is delivered into our homes, cars, gas stations, food stores, medical clinics, no one escapes its influence.
Our Media is strictly controlled and censored by individuals that do Not take our well being under consideration.

It seems most people think removal of Sex and Violence are the only way to censor. That is Not true!
We are more easily controlled when all 'fired up' with Fear from Threats and Images of Violence.
The hyper-sexualized content and images keeps us distracted and unable to think critically.

Personally; I prefer transparent censorship to the lies USA Americans are told.
Censoring the internet may prove to be impossible. Therefore; Self-control.

Our people need the Media to tattle on its self.
And; We need to teach and learn self-control.

We were told the answer is, "Just, Turn It Off."
We can't, "Just, Turn It Off."

Jose Wrote:
Capitalism needs a steering wheel, but the other governing philosophies need an engine as well, as they work against individuals' natural desires.

Jose; I think I disagree with you about what is 'natural' for humans.
It is an individual's natural desire to belong to a validating and nurturing social group.
This is natural both for our small groups (couple/nuclear family) and our large groups (National and Sport).
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:07 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
ijuin wrote:The biggest single flaw that I see with Capitalism is that money becomes the measure of everything--anything that can not be monetized is regarded as worthless. You could possess the most beautiful thing in the world, but it's only worth what you can charge other people for it.
...which is why capitalism by itself is a rotten form of governance, private or public. It needs reins.


Uh, if you want to measure things, you pretty much end up with something that looks very much like money.

A world in which the value of things cannot be measured seems pretty unworkable.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby leady » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

I would even go as far as to suggest that a lot of problems in the western world would be mediated if more things had a cash value or were at least perceived that way.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

So.. how much value should be put on your lives? Your dignity? Your happiness?

Do you make enough to pay for that amount? If someone doesn't make enough to justify the value of their life what then? The disabled and/or the mentally ill who cannot hold a job that returns the value placed on their lives? Should they just get a bullet to the head? It would be cheaper than accommodating their conditions or providing ongoing workforce training.

I'm pretty sure you place a different value on yourself than someone half a continent away, who's value should we as a society prioritize?

ucim said "capitalism by itself..". It's a great way for measuring value for most things, but some things, like the value of life, liberty and happiness are a decidedly gray area (often depending on who you are and who's value you're evaluating), and making pure capitalist value judgments on those factors tends to throw results that modern societies find abhorrent.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby HES » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:07 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:So.. how much value should be put on your lives? Your dignity? Your happiness?

These things are absolutely given a monetary-equivalent value when it comes to cost-benefit analysis of policies, projects or infrastructure. Whether you agree with the chosen values is a different matter, and they don't translate well to the individual, but those things have been assigned value nonetheless.

Leady's point is moot though, since there are no 'more things' than 'everything'.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:09 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:So.. how much value should be put on your lives? Your dignity? Your happiness?

Do you make enough to pay for that amount? If someone doesn't make enough to justify the value of their life what then? The disabled and/or the mentally ill who cannot hold a job that returns the value placed on their lives? Should they just get a bullet to the head? It would be cheaper than accommodating their conditions or providing ongoing workforce training.

I'm pretty sure you place a different value on yourself than someone half a continent away, who's value should we as a society prioritize?

ucim said "capitalism by itself..". It's a great way for measuring value for most things, but some things, like the value of life, liberty and happiness are a decidedly gray area (often depending on who you are and who's value you're evaluating), and making pure capitalist value judgments on those factors tends to throw results that modern societies find abhorrent.

Dauric, what good are all those principles if you don't have any money to back them up? Post civil war, blacks had the amendments passed in their name, but there was no money spent to defend it. That had to wait till the civil rights act. We spent money on troops, fines etc etc to enforce our principles. That's how principles work hand in hand with money.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:16 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Dauric wrote:So.. how much value should be put on your lives? Your dignity? Your happiness?

Do you make enough to pay for that amount? If someone doesn't make enough to justify the value of their life what then? The disabled and/or the mentally ill who cannot hold a job that returns the value placed on their lives? Should they just get a bullet to the head? It would be cheaper than accommodating their conditions or providing ongoing workforce training.

I'm pretty sure you place a different value on yourself than someone half a continent away, who's value should we as a society prioritize?

ucim said "capitalism by itself..". It's a great way for measuring value for most things, but some things, like the value of life, liberty and happiness are a decidedly gray area (often depending on who you are and who's value you're evaluating), and making pure capitalist value judgments on those factors tends to throw results that modern societies find abhorrent.

Dauric, what good are all those principles if you don't have any money to back them up? Post civil war, blacks had the amendments passed in their name, but there was no money spent to defend it. That had to wait till the civil rights act. We spent money on troops, fines etc etc to enforce our principles. That's how principles work hand in hand with money.


Let me say it again since people seem to keep missing it when both ucim and I said it:

ucim said "capitalism by itself.."

I'll even add bold and underline..

I'm not saying principles should exist in a valueless vacuum, but by the same token values and profit-seeking behaviors should not exist in a vacuum where considerations for basic decency to our fellow human beings does not exist either. There's a balance to be struck, going all one way or the other is disastrous.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:26 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:So.. how much value should be put on your lives? Your dignity? Your happiness?

Do you make enough to pay for that amount? If someone doesn't make enough to justify the value of their life what then? The disabled and/or the mentally ill who cannot hold a job that returns the value placed on their lives? Should they just get a bullet to the head? It would be cheaper than accommodating their conditions or providing ongoing workforce training.


I place very high values on those things. Others? Probably a great deal less on those factors for me. Of *course* we're all self interested to some degree.

Capitalism allows reconciliation of different subjective values. We hold different values for all manner of things. That's normal.

And yes, your life, etc is currently valued in some instances. Payouts for insurance/lawsuits, for example. Morals mostly exist to justify economic realities anyways. If you decide that something is morally required, but cannot actually DO it(immortality, perhaps. Is it just that anyone be forced to die unwillingly?), what difference does it make?

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:21 pm UTC

addams wrote:Jose; I think I disagree with you about what is 'natural' for humans.
It is an individual's natural desire to belong to a validating and nurturing social group.
This is natural both for our small groups (couple/nuclear family) and our large groups (National and Sport).
This is true, but it is also natural for humans (and other animals) to think of themselves first. It's an extension of the survival instinct. It can reasonably be argued even that belonging to a validating and nurturing social group is also an extension of the survival instinct, and engenders an "us" vs "them" mentality to some extent, almost by definition. One might love a spouse, but be jealous or wary of one's spouse's friends.

Capitalism is more directly connected with trade and betterment of economic standing; the whole point of trade is to come out better (than before), otherwise why trade at all. "Coming out better" (than before) is a selfish thing, and not in a bad sense, but rather, in the sense of self-improvement. This is the natural driving force I refer to. It works by itself.

Communism (as a counter example) works against this. One expends effort for somebody else's benefit, and lets someone else expend their efforts for your benefit, without the feedback of whether or not it is "worth it". With small social groups this can work, because as social animals we benefit from a group dynamic, and feeding into it is to our own benefit. But in larger groupings, such as a nation-state, we no longer can perceive the reflected benefit of our own efforts. It's too long a path, and we cease to want to be participants. So, participation needs to be coerced. That's the engine.

==

To the rest of the thread, it is important to distinguish between measuring the value of something, and assigning a value to something. They are not the same.

Jose
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:49 pm UTC

I don't want to argue the relative merit of:

1. Being pulled by desire for Self and Others: The Religion of Communism.
2. Being pushed by fear of despair for Me and Mine: The Religion of Capitalism.

They are both Religions.
They each work for some people.

Dog eat Dog has a few Big Winners and a great many members of the Despairing Masses.
Communism has a Whole Lot of Losers cuddled up with their meager share of so little.

(shrug) It's Religion.
There must be a Thread dedicated to that sort of thing laying around xkcd, somewhere.
With the old ways of searching 'off line' it might be a challenge to find the Thread.

That argument is about The Past.
I'd like to leave it in The Past.

This Thread is about The Future.

In The Future there will be World Wide Communication for The Masses!
Even in Poor Nations. Are we there, yet?
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:34 pm UTC

ucim wrote:To the rest of the thread, it is important to distinguish between measuring the value of something, and assigning a value to something. They are not the same.


What, you think valuations are some objective truth? Like a gallon of gas is objectively worth a certain number of dollars or something?

No. Value is always assigned.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:49 pm UTC

addams wrote:In The Future there will be World Wide Communication for The Masses!
Even in Poor Nations. Are we there, yet?
Pretty much, yes. What will we say to each other?
Spoiler:
How long will it be before there's a general "shut up!" on the internet?
Tyndmyr wrote:What, you think valuations are some objective truth? Like a gallon of gas is objectively worth a certain number of dollars or something?
Some here act as if valuations are objectively measured, rather than arbitrarily assigned.

Who was it that said "A world in which the value of things cannot be measured seems pretty unworkable."?

Jose
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:31 pm UTC

You can measure value that's been assigned to something. Yknow, using money.

That's what it's for.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:You can measure value that's been assigned to something.
But this is most assuredly not "measuring the value of something". Confuse the two at our peril.

Jose
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:25 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:You can measure value that's been assigned to something.
But this is most assuredly not "measuring the value of something". Confuse the two at our peril.

Jose

oh, dear; That's confusing.
Gee. I must be 'at our peril'.

Who is this 'our'?
The plural? Who?

Who is at peril and what kind of peril?
Are you talking about Units?

I saw a youtube clip about Units.
I thought it was very good.

Units are Sneeky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQpQ0hx ... tml5=False
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:05 am UTC

addams wrote:oh, dear; That's confusing.
Actually, it's (metaphorically) a lot like the sig figs referenced in your sneaky video. :)

When you measure something that inherently can be measured, you learn something about the thing itself. If you weigh something on a balance scale, you learn about its mass. If you put a thermometer into something, you learn about its temperature. These are inherent properties of the thing being measured. The thing has these properties.

But when you assign a property (like value) to something, you are lying. You are making things up. They are sometimes useful lies, to be sure, but they say nothing that is inherently true about the thing in question.

You can subsequently measure the thing that you assigned to the thing, such as by doing a price survey to see what kind of monetary value stores are assigning to a widget, or insurance companies are assigning to a human life. You can even do that measurement meticulously and scientifically, and get an answer to many decimal places. But it's deceptive; it looks and feels like you are measuring a property of the thing, but you are really measuring other people's arbitrary assignments. If one is not careful, one comes away thinking they know something that they don't.

Then policy is made based on this, and we all suffer.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby addams » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:42 am UTC

oh.....
I don't like to suffer.

So, whatever that is,
Please, please, please...
Watch those Units and Sig. Figs!

In Chemisrty, when ya' get it wrong,
Ya' die.

In 'armchair economics' when ya' get it wrong,
We suffer.

We have suffered enough.
To be fair, we sort of had it coming.

Of all the two houses with all the Congress and Senate People...
Seven might be able to control Units and Sig. Figs. (See?)

Hey!
Where is The Future?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:04 pm UTC

addams wrote:Hey!
Where is The Future?

Wait for it. :)

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.


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