The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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KrytenKoro
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:40 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:? Should a woman be ashamed of making sure she's not being drugged?

It does communicate a certain amount of distrust. I mean, it's not shameful, but food tasters were usually reserved for those who couldn't trust anyone due to their stature. The insult was ameliorated by it being SOP for everyone who served food to them.

Maybe that's what we need -- to start food tasting through kits as a standard eating ritual, which could presumably test for germs and allergens as well. Like Itadakimasu, but with chemistry.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zamfir » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

I knew you were not the sharpest tool in the shed from previous encounters but I didn't realize the scope of my intelligence was so much larger than yours, that is all.


Consider yourself warned. I don't want to see more remarks like this one from you.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:07 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:It does communicate a certain amount of distrust.


It could just as easily be an overture for a discussion about consent. Doing it openly admits that possibility, covertly the conversation can never occur.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:44 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:It could just as easily be an overture for a discussion about consent. Doing it openly admits that possibility, covertly the conversation can never occur.

Yes, absolutely.

Humans take offense at weird things.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Humans take offense at weird things.


I've gotta say, at this point in time, not realising that you don't automatically have the trust of women in this sort of situation is deeply naive, and complaining about it when a woman acts on that lack of trust puts a negative experience next to a woman for trying to be safe, which sends the signal that you don't want women doing that. It also suggests that you want people in that space to imagine they are in a "zone of rape impossibility", which is rape culture write large. It can't happen here => it didn't happen to you here no matter what you say.

That vs an open, honest, sensible approach that makes it clear that rape is something we all know can happen. I'd much prefer that. It pushes the consent conversation forward, instead of trying to create some sort of veil which doesn't seem to benefit anyone much, except maybe people who don't want women being in control of their choices and safety.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby PeteP » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:It does communicate a certain amount of distrust.


It could just as easily be an overture for a discussion about consent. Doing it openly admits that possibility, covertly the conversation can never occur.

If you aren't suggesting that having that creating an overture for that discussion and then having it is obligatory, then the point that one might choose secrecy to avoid openly indicating distrust stands. (Getting annoyed by people testing things to make sure they are save is silly in my opinion but none the less a reaction people might have. Are you saying avoiding it is not a valid choice for others to make?)
You asked whether the makers talked to some women, now like the creators you are no woman either if I remember correctly (not that being one gives one authority to speak for other women). So, did you ask around whether others would prefer it over more openly using something like drink test kits before implying that others shouldn't choose it by implying the reason would be that they are ashamed of making sure they are not drugged? (Bah what a convoluted and ugly sentence.)
Because making a product is just offering an option to use it and I'm quite sure it is not your decision to make whether others prefer the covert approach. If they don't, they won't choose it, it's not like it precludes the use of drink test kits.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:51 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:It does communicate a certain amount of distrust.


It could just as easily be an overture for a discussion about consent. Doing it openly admits that possibility, covertly the conversation can never occur.


It could be. And if someone wishes to take that route, good on them. But maybe there are people who want to drink in a bar without having to explain their distrust repeatedly, and...still want to be able to check, because the distrust is still there. That seems quite possible, and perhaps even likely.

We need not get rid of the overt kit simply because a discreet option is also available.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Isaac Hill » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:52 pm UTC

If women can test their drinks discretely, then rapists won't know which women are testing their drinks. An overt test kit means select another target. A covert kit means any woman might notice her drink's been tampered with. Maybe she just leaves the bar. Maybe she calls the cops. Rapists would have to be wary of an entire gender because a few members of that gender have the means and will to severely damage their lives.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:28 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Humans take offense at weird things.


I've gotta say, at this point in time, not realising that you don't automatically have the trust of women in this sort of situation is deeply naive, and complaining about it when a woman acts on that lack of trust puts a negative experience next to a woman for trying to be safe, which sends the signal that you don't want women doing that. It also suggests that you want people in that space to imagine they are in a "zone of rape impossibility", which is rape culture write large. It can't happen here => it didn't happen to you here no matter what you say.

That vs an open, honest, sensible approach that makes it clear that rape is something we all know can happen. I'd much prefer that. It pushes the consent conversation forward, instead of trying to create some sort of veil which doesn't seem to benefit anyone much, except maybe people who don't want women being in control of their choices and safety.

Like I said, weird things. Especially when they've already been imbibing alcohol.

I'm not, at all, disagreeing with you.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:42 pm UTC

"Why weren't you wearing rape-proof nailpolish? What were you wearing that night? Why'd you agree to have drinks with him?'

While I'm glad that this exists to help prevent those rapes which are committed using drugs, I do hesitate at the idea it may become expected for women to fork out the money for these products (financially disadvantaging them), and that its absence may be used to paint the circumstance as at least partly her fault through 'recklessness'. Especially since three quarters of rapes are by acquaintances. But as I said, ultimately I'm glad that these things are becoming available to help protect one's self in a world where rape and rape-culture is prevalent.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:00 pm UTC

yurell wrote:"Why weren't you wearing rape-proof nailpolish? What were you wearing that night? Why'd you agree to have drinks with him?'

While I'm glad that this exists to help prevent those rapes which are committed using drugs, I do hesitate at the idea it may become expected for women to fork out the money for these products (financially disadvantaging them), and that its absence may be used to paint the circumstance as at least partly her fault through 'recklessness'. Especially since three quarters of rapes are by acquaintances. But as I said, ultimately I'm glad that these things are becoming available to help protect one's self in a world where rape and rape-culture is prevalent.

It is un-fucking-believable the problems acquaintances can be.

Our people are not safe with one another.
It is a heart breaking Truth.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby setzer777 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:07 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:If women can test their drinks discretely, then rapists won't know which women are testing their drinks. An overt test kit means select another target. A covert kit means any woman might notice her drink's been tampered with. Maybe she just leaves the bar. Maybe she calls the cops. Rapists would have to be wary of an entire gender because a few members of that gender have the means and will to severely damage their lives.


Doesn't that assume the rapist would be at significant risk if the woman did call the cops?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:51 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Isaac Hill wrote:If women can test their drinks discretely, then rapists won't know which women are testing their drinks. An overt test kit means select another target. A covert kit means any woman might notice her drink's been tampered with. Maybe she just leaves the bar. Maybe she calls the cops. Rapists would have to be wary of an entire gender because a few members of that gender have the means and will to severely damage their lives.


Doesn't that assume the rapist would be at significant risk if the woman did call the cops?


Well they'd get slapped with a drugs possession charge... which sadly is more likely to get them in trouble than a sexual assault / rape charge I guess.

Also in a world where women fear the social consequences of clearly rejecting a guy* I think it's valuable for there to exist a cover drink testing option.

*Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that (some? many?) women are reluctant to outright tell a guy no, or to get lost, because of the potential social backlash (being labelled a prude, a bitch, or worse things than being called names happening)

edit for typos
Last edited by johnny_7713 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby yurell » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:31 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:*Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that (some? many?) women are reluctant to outright tell a guy no, or to get lost, because of the potential social backlash (being labelled a prude, a bitch, or worse things than being called names happening)


There's always the risk that they'll get violent, especially if they decide you're 'just playing hard to get'. It's why the 'I already have a boyfriend' mantra gets used quite often — the sad state of misogyny is that a woman's right to bodily autonomy (or to have a drink in peace) is much more likely to be respected when she's 'taken' by a male than if she simply doesn't want to engage with the person approaching her.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:41 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:Also in a world where women fear the social consequences of clearly rejecting a guy* I think it's valuable for their to exists a cover drink testing option.


Fair enough, but this is clearly a papering over of the cracks rather than an actual fix of the real problem. Its ridiculous that women should feel so pressured, that male violence against women is so unimpeded. Is it so wrong for feminists to point that out, that this isn't really a fix, that its not dealing with the substantial issues?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:33 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:Also in a world where women fear the social consequences of clearly rejecting a guy* I think it's valuable for their to exists a cover drink testing option.


Fair enough, but this is clearly a papering over of the cracks rather than an actual fix of the real problem. Its ridiculous that women should feel so pressured, that male violence against women is so unimpeded. Is it so wrong for feminists to point that out, that this isn't really a fix, that its not dealing with the substantial issues?

ech. At three in the morning even a feminist has to wonder.
If it is so fucking dangerous out there;
What the fuck are you doing drinking in Public??

It's dangerous out there!!
Don't Fucking Go Out There!!

Those AssHoles are AssHoles.
What the fuck is a nice girl like you doing out there getting drunk with those AssHoles??

You did not plan on getting drunk?
The drink was stronger than you expected?

It's a New Day, Ladies.
You may want AssHoles to stop being AssHoles.

That is Not going to happen.
Stop going where They go.

What the Hell are you Thinking??
It is fucking dangerous out there!
Don't Go!!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Grop » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:02 pm UTC

Apart from the debate, I think the idea of magical nails that interact with drinks is quite awesome.

(Alas in your typical spying movie, that would only be exploited as some evil woman poisoning someone).

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:09 pm UTC

I wonder... Could you put a coating on the glasses themselves?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:25 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Fair enough, but this is clearly a papering over of the cracks rather than an actual fix of the real problem. Its ridiculous that women should feel so pressured, that male violence against women is so unimpeded. Is it so wrong for feminists to point that out, that this isn't really a fix, that its not dealing with the substantial issues?


I don't think anyone claimed this product was somehow going to end rape culture or misogyny or even date rape all together. It is a tool that some people will find useful in dealing with one fairly small and specific aspect of it. Expecting the science/engineering students to come up with "fix of the real problem" is akin to expecting the sociology students to develop cold fusion for us.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:28 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I don't think anyone claimed this product was somehow going to end rape culture or misogyny or even date rape all together.


No, but people did claim that feminists protested the product.

If you look at the original article, and the "inevitable internet backlash" that they point to, its just people using the press that this has gotten to point to rape culture as the real culprit and to discuss how this product will fit into that existing problem.

I mean,

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/7 ... tweet1.png

is just funny.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:44 pm UTC

Why not make rohypnol (or whatever ruffies are made of) a controlled substance the way cocaine is? You can give cocaine to patients. Have strict controls on who can manufacture it, record EVERY use, etc.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:48 pm UTC

Prescription only in many countries (used for insomnia treatment, tightly controlled) and outright illegal in the US.
Yeah, that pretty much makes using roofies illegal. They're also very rare.

But ask yourself; have tight controls on cocaine worked out?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:00 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:If women can test their drinks discretely, then rapists won't know which women are testing their drinks. An overt test kit means select another target. A covert kit means any woman might notice her drink's been tampered with. Maybe she just leaves the bar. Maybe she calls the cops. Rapists would have to be wary of an entire gender because a few members of that gender have the means and will to severely damage their lives.


Hmm, basically the concealed carry argument adapted to a different crime. Makes sense, really. Hidden defenses in common use can cause caution even when no defenses exist.

yurell wrote:"Why weren't you wearing rape-proof nailpolish? What were you wearing that night? Why'd you agree to have drinks with him?'

While I'm glad that this exists to help prevent those rapes which are committed using drugs, I do hesitate at the idea it may become expected for women to fork out the money for these products (financially disadvantaging them), and that its absence may be used to paint the circumstance as at least partly her fault through 'recklessness'. Especially since three quarters of rapes are by acquaintances. But as I said, ultimately I'm glad that these things are becoming available to help protect one's self in a world where rape and rape-culture is prevalent.


People can and do blame victims regardless of this nail polish existing. It's not going to start that...cat's outta the bag, there. Someone wants to victim blame, they'll find a way.

Xenomortis wrote:Prescription only in many countries (used for insomnia treatment, tightly controlled) and outright illegal in the US.
Yeah, that pretty much makes using roofies illegal. They're also very rare.

But ask yourself; have tight controls on cocaine worked out?


Agreed. I don't think making them MORE illegal is going to matter significantly.

jestingrabbit wrote:
johnny_7713 wrote:Also in a world where women fear the social consequences of clearly rejecting a guy* I think it's valuable for their to exists a cover drink testing option.


Fair enough, but this is clearly a papering over of the cracks rather than an actual fix of the real problem. Its ridiculous that women should feel so pressured, that male violence against women is so unimpeded. Is it so wrong for feminists to point that out, that this isn't really a fix, that its not dealing with the substantial issues?


If it prevents crime, it is indeed a fix. It isn't a complete fix, certainly, but it is not merely a papering over of the cracks.

Imposition of real costs upon people who commit crimes IS dealing with the problem. Better detection is usually a part of that. Doesn't matter what the penalties are if they never get detected, and can freely continue acting the same way.

Thesh wrote:I wonder... Could you put a coating on the glasses themselves?


Ooooh, that seems like a possibility. I'm not sure of this particular formulation, so I obviously can't say for sure, but if it does work out, there are some interesting possibilities there. A cup that automatically colors up in the presence of <list of bad stuff> sounds wildly sci-fi, and also extremely nifty.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:03 pm UTC

Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...
Last edited by CorruptUser on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:08 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:07 pm UTC

Not very.
Probably about 1-2% of date rape incidents involve the involuntary consumption of anything other than alcohol.

Edit:
That's little more than a guess from me. I would be surprised if it was even close to 10%.

CorruptUser wrote:So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...

People have taken it recreationally.
That's why I clarified "involuntary" above.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...


Yeah after looking at wikipedia and the links it had, it does seem to be a very minor issue. The alcohol itself is far more often the date rape drug in question. That said, even if it is just a misconception risk that people hold (like airline flying), the product is a method to give the person some peace of mind in a manner that is fairly undetectable and thus doesn't attract attention. So there's still a positive in that.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:21 pm UTC

Grop wrote:Apart from the debate, I think the idea of magical nails that interact with drinks is quite awesome.

(Alas in your typical spying movie, that would only be exploited as some evil woman poisoning someone).

Have you ever been poisoned?
I have.

It sucks.

Men wear Nail Polish!
And; Those men are the most distracting men Out There!

How off guard are you taken by a beautiful 30 something year old man, in perfect physical condition,
wearing a bustiaire, a garter belt, stockings and a tutu?

I can tell you from experience, that did not make me drop my guard.
I did dance with him. He was a good dancer. I'm not.

If those two men had given me a drink that was glowing green and had blue mist rising off if it;
And; Told me, "drink it."

I would have drank it.
What good would fighting do?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:31 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...


Yeah, it seems like getting caught with that would pretty much settle intent, and make for a satisfyingly clear cut case. Obviously, there's quite a lot of other sorts, but, still...the sort of person who procures such illegal drugs and plans such a thing out seems particularly terrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they were more likely to be serial offenders.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soteria » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:18 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Thesh wrote:I wonder... Could you put a coating on the glasses themselves?


Ooooh, that seems like a possibility. I'm not sure of this particular formulation, so I obviously can't say for sure, but if it does work out, there are some interesting possibilities there. A cup that automatically colors up in the presence of <list of bad stuff> sounds wildly sci-fi, and also extremely nifty.


I suspect it would have serious implementation problems. For example, which glasses/cups would you put it on? Would it be built-in from the time of manufacture, or something applied before drinking? How would you know that the cup you're drinking from has the coating (the nail-polish implementation is clear). I mean, say Dixie or Solo developed a disposable cup that has this coating on it--but how would you know it's there, and wasn't somehow removed or nullified by the rapist before he added the drug? My understanding is that usually these rapes happen when someone gives you a cup and you didn't see it prepared, so I don't see how you'd be able to know whether the cup actually has the coating or is a fake. I guess you could bring your own glass. /shrug

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby setzer777 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:26 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Doesn't that assume the rapist would be at significant risk if the woman did call the cops?


Well they'd get slapped with a drugs possession charge... which sadly is more likely to get them in trouble than a sexual assault / rape charge I guess.


How would she prove that he's the one who spiked the drink? Especially since he could just leave before the cops show up.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:33 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...


Yeah, it seems like getting caught with that would pretty much settle intent, and make for a satisfyingly clear cut case. Obviously, there's quite a lot of other sorts, but, still...the sort of person who procures such illegal drugs and plans such a thing out seems particularly terrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they were more likely to be serial offenders.

The problem with most drug rapes is the drug of choice is alcohol. And the punishment for most rapes is a hearty slap on the back for a job well done.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:29 pm UTC

Soteria wrote:I suspect it would have serious implementation problems. For example, which glasses/cups would you put it on? Would it be built-in from the time of manufacture, or something applied before drinking? How would you know that the cup you're drinking from has the coating (the nail-polish implementation is clear). I mean, say Dixie or Solo developed a disposable cup that has this coating on it--but how would you know it's there, and wasn't somehow removed or nullified by the rapist before he added the drug? My understanding is that usually these rapes happen when someone gives you a cup and you didn't see it prepared, so I don't see how you'd be able to know whether the cup actually has the coating or is a fake. I guess you could bring your own glass. /shrug


It'd only really work if it became a norm. Which could be difficult. I mean, can you imagining a bar advertising that their cups detect roofies? The owners would probably be worried about the perception this would give people about their bar. So, there might be adoption difficulties, for sure.

Perhaps some sort of variant on the theme might be more socially acceptable. Perhaps a glass that changes color with the alcohol content inside it? Not sure how practical that would be to make, or if it'd encourage oneupsmanship in drinking, but as an informational tool, it might be useful, and easier to adopt.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:18 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...


Yeah, it seems like getting caught with that would pretty much settle intent, and make for a satisfyingly clear cut case. Obviously, there's quite a lot of other sorts, but, still...the sort of person who procures such illegal drugs and plans such a thing out seems particularly terrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they were more likely to be serial offenders.

I do believe you have a point there.

I hear some bitching about what Men are teaching Men.
I will to state as Fact, Women are at the heart of some Assaults, if not many Assaults, against women.

It is not a Gender War.
It is a battle for the Hearts and Minds.

Just like George W. said....
That gives a person food for thought. Doesn't it?

What kind of a Culture are we fighting for?
What kind are we fighting against?

Why are we fighting?
To be able to eat and drink in public with no concern?

We don't have that.
Many of us, never did.

Body Guards and Tasters go back a long way.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:41 pm UTC

Looks like Home Depot may have been hacked. If you've made recent purchases there using credit/debit cards, review your account for suspicious charges, etc and keep an eye on the news. May have to replace them.

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Lucrece
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Lucrece » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:57 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wait, just how common are ruffies? Wikipedia says 1% of reported date rapes. That seems uncommon but not rare.

So the question becomes, just how much rape is pre-meditated? Because having rohypnol kind of means you are planning in using it...


Yeah, it seems like getting caught with that would pretty much settle intent, and make for a satisfyingly clear cut case. Obviously, there's quite a lot of other sorts, but, still...the sort of person who procures such illegal drugs and plans such a thing out seems particularly terrible. I wouldn't be surprised if they were more likely to be serial offenders.

The problem with most drug rapes is the drug of choice is alcohol. And the punishment for most rapes is a hearty slap on the back for a job well done.


I'd really love to know who are these people heartily slapping backs.

Hell, if you look at most media consumption trends as of late, the primary way to depict extreme villainy is to victimize women. Take your pick in most action movies or games, the trope is to use a damsel in distress to elicit strong male response. Liam Neeson has made bank on this.

I don't buy for a second that there's this widespread disregard or approval for rape. The issue is more systemic in that the justice system is such a big pile of shit right now, proving guilt on these kinds of crimes is so incredibly difficult and most often deals are cut where it's deeply unsatisfying to the victim (the whole point of justice for most people is feeling vindicated, that the offending party's suffering will be proportionate to the inflicted harm), or victims consider that the kind of additional anguish and emotional investment in pursuing a legal route which may at best produce mediocre sentencing is not worth their time, so that few of these victims care to report on top of whatever shame they already feel.

The justice system as it exists is geared more toward the government meting out punishment for violating the social order than actually caring to address the concerns and grievances of victims.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

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addams
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:41 pm UTC

oh, Dear God;
How did you learn all that?
The part I could understand seemed to follow some of what I have seen with my own two eyes.

I don't know!
I have seen, The System used by the Bad Guy and the Victim is standing there with tears in his eyes.

I have learned, Attorneying Is HARD.
Those Guys must be Brutal.

We are hard on our own.
Those guys kick other people's asses.

How much rougher are they on each other?
Yes. It is scary for the Unprepared in a Court Room.

Go To Law School!!
EveryBody!

Go To Law School!!
If you can get in, Go!

If you can't get in,
You can settle on a bit of Chemical Engineering or Physics.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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sardia
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:43 pm UTC

Lucrece, there are other kinds of rape besides movie-rape.
https://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml
Yes, men don't go around with knives demanding sex, but rape is still a problem. Most of it involves getting an acquaintance drunk, and having sex despite them saying no, or being unresponsive. One side gets congratulations for getting laid, the other side doesn't report anything. This problem isn't all on the criminal justice system, the culture and expectations of sexuality needs changing.

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addams
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:07 am UTC

Yes.
We know.

And; We are in over our heads in a Court Room.
All of that is True.

Lawyers do some Hard stuff.
I don't know what.

It looked easy.
I recently had a Court Room experience.

Weird.
Weird, I tell you.

I got my Ass Kicked on Monday.
Another guy was scheduled to get his Ass Kicked on Thursday.

I went to show my support for him.
Jeeze. Weird. Weird, I tell you.

I was asked to speak.
And; I had a thing or two to say.

I was asked two yes/no questions and that was All they wanted to hear from me.
I was Not talking too much. (shrug)

I think it made a difference.
Having One other person, there and willing to stand at his side.

I think it made a difference.
He did not get his Ass Kicked.

I get another Shot at it in a week or two.

Maybe I should Prepare.
That can make a difference, too.

Oh! Oh!
We got Transferred to the Nice Room.
Our Court Rooms can be So Pretty.

The Nice Room is more Private.
Did we have a little riot planed?

I sure as fuck didn't.
The little ass kicker might have.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soteria » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:56 am UTC

sardia wrote:Lucrece, there are other kinds of rape besides movie-rape.
https://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml
Yes, men don't go around with knives demanding sex, but rape is still a problem. Most of it involves getting an acquaintance drunk, and having sex despite them saying no, or being unresponsive. One side gets congratulations for getting laid, the other side doesn't report anything. This problem isn't all on the criminal justice system, the culture and expectations of sexuality needs changing.


I disagree that men who force women to have sex get congratulated. At least, not the men I've known, not even the womanizers. Guys who talk about their "conquests" tend to emphasize how enthusiastic the girl was. Inasmuch as anyone else hears about it, they hear a version in which "she was really into it." Even in some of the sicker stories I've heard, like of 6-7 guys running a "train" on a girl, the guy telling the story was emphatic that she consented.

I think it's more likely that the problem is in the justice system--the girl thinks (right or wrong) that it's going to be a he said/she said case and that dredging up a painful memory in public is not worth it.

One of the more bizarre things I've heard on this subject was from a feminist, on the subject of the anti-roofie nail polish: "You need to teach your male friends to stop committing rape and to shame those who don't stop." (loose quote)

It saddens me that some people think that if only men knew that rape was wrong, they'd stop doing it, and that what we should be doing with rapists is "shaming" them. And here I was thinking they already know they did wrong, and that we should be putting them in jail for 20 years or so.

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sardia
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:39 am UTC

Uh, the fact that people are raping others and do not realize it is wrong is exactly what the data shows. Lemme google it.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09 ... tudy-asia/
Study is inside the link, with a summary of how rape is defined. Hmmm, I think I'll update it to most people don't know what constitutes rape besides violent movie rape. While I can understand that the justice system doesn't punish rape very effectively, culture does play a role. Say you complained to the university that you got raped, and since a university has lower standards for evidence, they are more able to act. However, even with this lowered bar, rapists don't get punished.


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