The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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speising
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby speising » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:42 pm UTC

The gun crowd claims armed bystanders could shoot perpetrators and prevent crime. I'd be interested to see what they'll say when some people start gunning down the actors in good faith.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:45 pm UTC

speising wrote:The gun crowd claims armed bystanders could shoot perpetrators and prevent crime. I'd be interested to see what they'll say when some people start gunning down the actors in good faith.


I mean, yeah, that happens, but I doubt some play is really going to sell anyone on that, and it strikes me as one of those situations where toning down the realism* to avoid safety issues makes the whole thing...just bizzare and ridiculous.

*Presumably that's the point of using cardboard guns.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
speising wrote: makes the whole thing...just bizzare and ridiculous.

Making it the perfect example of the present gun situation.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:36 pm UTC

Strictly speaking, with regards to mass shootings, they're not wrong. Mass shootings nigh invariably occur in gun free zones. Given that the vast, vast majority of the US is not a gun free zone, it's really hard to argue for that being chance.

However, mass shootings are almost an irrelevancy in terms of actual numbers. They're just apparently the time for people to immediately trot out the anti-gun rallying cries, so we get to watch the whole song and dance unfold again. Perhaps literally, in this case.

It's a strange ritual.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:41 pm UTC

Image

Fox & Friends: Your Kids Should Charge Active Shooters

According to the FBI, the first two things your kids should attempt in any active shooting situation are 1) run or, if that’s not possible, 2) hide. According to Fox & Friends, Little Johnny needs to stand his goddamn ground.

In a segment earlier today, Elizabeth Hasselbeck brought on two martial arts instructors who have apparently been busy teaching children the art of running at active shooters. But as Media Matters points out, never once does anyone explain that staying to fight should be an absolute goddamn last resort.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby speising » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:44 pm UTC

Looks like a good recipe for a bullet in the abdomen. At least, teach them to rush the shooter all at once. Strength in numbers, he can't get them all!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:45 pm UTC

Fake weapons, fake blood...what could possibly go wrong?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:46 pm UTC

Honestly, it's probably gonna make very little difference regardless. Hard to outrun a bullet, and most kids are just going to freeze up in panic anyway.

Considering the actual odds of it mattering, seems like a reasonable solution. At least they get exercise by doing martial arts, despite the improbability of a karate chop saving any lives.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:04 pm UTC

I mean I suppose if you're trapped in a classroom and the shooter comes in, you're likely pretty fucked anyways. At which point it's either fight or wait for them to start shooting and then fall over near someone who had gotten shot and hope they think you're dead (and hope you're not the first one shot I guess).

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:15 pm UTC

Or curl up in a corner with your arms protecting your girlfriend/wife, only for a bullet to bounce off a bone in your arm into your wife's skull, meaning your attempt to save your wife only (indirectly) causes her death.

Mass shootings suck. I might've been in that one...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:14 pm UTC

I think it was in this thread that this story came up...

Woman who fired at shoplifters in a Home Depot parking lot sentenced to 18 months probation and stripped of her concealed-carry permit. She apparently "learned my lesson that I will never help anybody again."

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Vahir » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:33 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I think it was in this thread that this story came up...

Woman who fired at shoplifters in a Home Depot parking lot sentenced to 18 months probation and stripped of her concealed-carry permit. She apparently "learned my lesson that I will never help anybody again."


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The fact that this woman thinks it's everyone else who's unreasonable makes it clear she hasn't learned anything at all.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:33 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
krogoth wrote:Would this count as a darwan award worthy? Suicide?
This is why some pranks are dangerous.
This is why mental health checks aren't a bad idea, there is NO way a gun owner should even consider this a good idea.

Abject, zealous stupidity is not a mental illness, it's an ideological failing. Please don't equate the two.



Given the level of idiocy in the US lately, I'm not sure I agree. The xenophobic racist "OBUMMERS GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!" crowd are clearly suffering from some sort of schitzoaffective disorder: unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, disorganized thinking, manic (risky) behaviours....

This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby freezeblade » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:44 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


If 1 person believes something completely crazy and irrational, is it still crazy?
what about 100? 10,000?

(I, of course, believe that it is, but some may disagree with you.)
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:46 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I mean I suppose if you're trapped in a classroom and the shooter comes in, you're likely pretty fucked anyways. At which point it's either fight or wait for them to start shooting and then fall over near someone who had gotten shot and hope they think you're dead (and hope you're not the first one shot I guess).


It's probably one of those things like plane hijackings where if everyone actually did zerg rush the attacker then the average death toll would probably drop through the floor but the reality is more likely to be one person trying to play hero while most people freeze up or run and net effect is for the hero to be the first to get their brains splattered across the walls.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:05 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Given the level of idiocy in the US lately, I'm not sure I agree. The xenophobic racist "OBUMMERS GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!" crowd are clearly suffering from some sort of schitzoaffective disorder: unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, disorganized thinking, manic (risky) behaviours....

This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


I'm reasonably confident that Obama would, in fact, like to increase gun control, because he keeps proposing it, and calling for it. This includes the AR-15 I personally own, as this and similar firearms are routinely described negatively, and are a frequent target for restriction.

Am I racist, xenophobic, or schitzoaffective? If so, please describe why.

HungryHobo wrote:It's probably one of those things like plane hijackings where if everyone actually did zerg rush the attacker then the average death toll would probably drop through the floor but the reality is more likely to be one person trying to play hero while most people freeze up or run and net effect is for the hero to be the first to get their brains splattered across the walls.


Likely. Particularly because we're talking about kids...shock, panic, etc are probably going to dominate any response. I kinda get what they're going for, but I don't think it'll really matter in any real sense.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:24 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Given the level of idiocy in the US lately, I'm not sure I agree. The xenophobic racist "OBUMMERS GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!" crowd are clearly suffering from some sort of schitzoaffective disorder: unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, disorganized thinking, manic (risky) behaviours....

This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


I'm reasonably confident that Obama would, in fact, like to increase gun control, because he keeps proposing it, and calling for it. This includes the AR-15 I personally own, as this and similar firearms are routinely described negatively, and are a frequent target for restriction.

Am I racist, xenophobic, or schitzoaffective? If so, please describe why.


I don't know, are you? (AR-15s are terrible guns, but that's a whole 'nother bucket of shoes - and yes, I am also a gun owner, but I don't think that the gubbmint is going to come take mah guns!!!1eleven!).

Tougher common sense restrictions on guns (closing loopholes, for instance) doesn't mean that a politician is intent on confiscating legal firearms - but rather keeping them from people who most likely should not have them in the first place. Anyone who think that their AR-15 is going to protect them from the government for whatever reason (which, incidentally, they are a part of) is delusional.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:33 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:I don't know, are you? (AR-15s are terrible guns, but that's a whole 'nother bucket of shoes - and yes, I am also a gun owner, but I don't think that the gubbmint is going to come take mah guns!!!1eleven!).

Tougher common sense restrictions on guns (closing loopholes, for instance) doesn't mean that a politician is intent on confiscating legal firearms - but rather keeping them from people who most likely should not have them in the first place. Anyone who think that their AR-15 is going to protect them from the government for whatever reason (which, incidentally, they are a part of) is delusional.


I don't think they are, but I totally think they'd love to.

Oh look, they had a gun roundup crew in California. I hear that's in the US. When they changed the criteria for who could have a gun, they sent out swat teams to confiscate them. That sure sounds like taking guns.

Yeah, that's criminals, for now. But, Obama has very recently proposed expanding it to no fly lists, for which you have no meaningful due process or recourse. It sure sounds like he wants to take guns away from those people.

As for protection, I notice that a bunch of folks pointed guns at cops over...grazing rights or something equally stupid. And the police, when realizing there were a whole lot of guns pointed at them, walked away. And yet...I hear of endless news stories where cops will casually beat or murder people who are entirely unarmed. So yeah, I'd say that guns can protect you from the government.

So please, tell me how any of the above makes me mentally ill. Additionally, please provide your credentials and experience regarding your diagnosis.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:47 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
krogoth wrote:Would this count as a darwan award worthy? Suicide?
This is why some pranks are dangerous.
This is why mental health checks aren't a bad idea, there is NO way a gun owner should even consider this a good idea.

Abject, zealous stupidity is not a mental illness, it's an ideological failing. Please don't equate the two.



Given the level of idiocy in the US lately, I'm not sure I agree. The xenophobic racist "OBUMMERS GONNA TAKE MAH GUNS!" crowd are clearly suffering from some sort of schitzoaffective disorder: unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, disorganized thinking, manic (risky) behaviours....

This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


No. That was a polite request for people to not bandy about a well-discredited bigotry.

Mental illness is not an ideology, nor does it mean you're an invalid who should be preemptively denied your human rights. Don't be an ass.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:17 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:I don't know, are you? (AR-15s are terrible guns, but that's a whole 'nother bucket of shoes - and yes, I am also a gun owner, but I don't think that the gubbmint is going to come take mah guns!!!1eleven!).

Tougher common sense restrictions on guns (closing loopholes, for instance) doesn't mean that a politician is intent on confiscating legal firearms - but rather keeping them from people who most likely should not have them in the first place. Anyone who think that their AR-15 is going to protect them from the government for whatever reason (which, incidentally, they are a part of) is delusional.


I don't think they are, but I totally think they'd love to.

Oh look, they had a gun roundup crew in California. I hear that's in the US. When they changed the criteria for who could have a gun, they sent out swat teams to confiscate them. That sure sounds like taking guns.

Yeah, that's criminals, for now. But, Obama has very recently proposed expanding it to no fly lists, for which you have no meaningful due process or recourse. It sure sounds like he wants to take guns away from those people.

As for protection, I notice that a bunch of folks pointed guns at cops over...grazing rights or something equally stupid. And the police, when realizing there were a whole lot of guns pointed at them, walked away. And yet...I hear of endless news stories where cops will casually beat or murder people who are entirely unarmed. So yeah, I'd say that guns can protect you from the government.

So please, tell me how any of the above makes me mentally ill. Additionally, please provide your credentials and experience regarding your diagnosis.

You're conflating white people with guns. Try that with black people and see how that works.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You're conflating white people with guns. Try that with black people and see how that works.


Black open carry demonstrations look to be entirely unbothered.

My theory is that racist bullies prefer to abuse others when there's little to no chance of suffering consequences for their actions.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:26 pm UTC

I'm not sure I'm parsing your post correctly, sardia. Are you meaning to imply that cops don't beat white people? Because they definitely do. Less commonly, sure, but all it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong cop. I know people who've had family members undergo such treatment.

Not that it probably would've worked out better if they were armed (generally speaking, pointing a gun at a cop is a great way to get shot,) but if the implication here is meant to be that white people have nothing to fear from thug cops? Sorry, nope.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:29 pm UTC

One person pointing a gun at a cop, or worse, a group of cop, results in the cop shooting roughly ALL the bullets at you. Or holding something that might be a gun. Or having pockets that could conceivably have a gun within them, and talking back to a cop.

A whole bunch of people with guns, such that unwarranted violence is guaranteed to end badly, and suddenly police are very polite and not prone to excessive force.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:29 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:You're conflating white people with guns. Try that with black people and see how that works.


Black open carry demonstrations look to be entirely unbothered.

My theory is that racist bullies prefer to abuse others when there's little to no chance of suffering consequences for their actions.

Does your theory explain the difference between open carry and concealed carry? Because cops don't seem to have a problem shooting everything that moves in the city. They seize a lot of guns when they arrest suspected "gang members". Where's the fear? Your hypothesis seems to only apply with rifles in large groups with clear fields of fire. How does that help the average citizen living in the city?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:14 am UTC

sardia wrote:commodorejohn
If a cop beats 2 black men for every 1 white guy, is there a racial disparity?

Does it matter in the context of this discussion? I never argued there isn't a racial disparity. In fact, I explicitly agreed that there was. But just because black people are less safe around cops doesn't mean that white people have nothing to worry about.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:15 am UTC

You were arguing that since X white people got beat up by cops, therefore cops didn't show preferential treatments to whites. I took issue with that. I wasn't claiming that whites don't get beat up, I was implying a racial disparity which includes preferential treatment.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:33 am UTC

eran_rathan wrote:This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


To me, a more interesting question: Can certain ideologies cause insanity? Going by ISIS...

Tyndmyr wrote:Yeah, that's criminals, for now. But, Obama has very recently proposed expanding it to no fly lists, for which you have no meaningful due process or recourse. It sure sounds like he wants to take guns away from those people.


If the list included only actual terrorists then the people on it shouldn't be allowed to possess a gun, simple as that. The problem is that t has everyone on it; including probably Santa Clause, the Pope, and Mother Teresa. Additions to the list are often politically motivated and/or mistaken; an article in Salon wrote that the list seemed, "...to be netting mostly priests, elderly nuns, Green Party campaign operatives, left-wing journalists, right-wing activists and people affiliated with Arab or Arab-American groups."

I was extremely irritated by the people who were opposed to the no fly list being used for gun sale disqualification. It was like they were saying, "No, no, the list is fine; we like it for listing people whose politics we don't like. But not to keep people from getting guns." I wanted to shake the lot of them until their teeth rattled.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:01 am UTC

sardia wrote:You were arguing that since X white people got beat up by cops, therefore cops didn't show preferential treatments to whites.

No, I very specifically said the exact opposite of that.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:01 am UTC

More on the Hunt Effect.

(They don't actually call it the Hunt effect in that article, so here's a citation for that terminology, though apparently it even has a wiki-page).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby BlackSails » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:10 am UTC

Angua wrote:More on the Hunt Effect.

(They don't actually call it the Hunt effect in that article, so here's a citation for that terminology, though apparently it even has a wiki-page).


Sounds pretty dumb to refuse a liver because its the weekend.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:28 am UTC

There was a study that came out that the DoH have been spending a lot of time emphasising because they are wanting to change doctors contracts and reduce pay while increasing the number of doctors on at the weekend. It basically said that if you are admitted on a Saturday or Sunday (and Fri and Mon) you have an increased chance of dying in the next 30 days (whether in hospital or not) than if admitted on a Wednesday. Despite it saying that "to assume that they are avoidable would be rash and misleading", Jeremy Hunt has tried using this as evidence for making a 7 day service (wants to have routine outpatient appointments and surgeries 7 days a week) without increasing the budget or the staffing for this, while social services funding is being reduced (it is so hard to discharge so many of our patients on the weekends because of this). Weekends are often when the hospitals have to overflow into escalation areas like day surgery because they can't discharge patients, but you won't be able to do that if you're increasing the number of surgeries and patients at the weekend.

Interestingly it also showed that you are less likely to actually die on the weekend compared to the week.

http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4596
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby HES » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:31 pm UTC

Interesting (but tragic) phenomenon. Shows how dangerous words can be.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby BlackSails » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:56 am UTC

Angua wrote:There was a study that came out that the DoH have been spending a lot of time emphasising because they are wanting to change doctors contracts and reduce pay while increasing the number of doctors on at the weekend. It basically said that if you are admitted on a Saturday or Sunday (and Fri and Mon) you have an increased chance of dying in the next 30 days (whether in hospital or not) than if admitted on a Wednesday. Despite it saying that "to assume that they are avoidable would be rash and misleading", Jeremy Hunt has tried using this as evidence for making a 7 day service (wants to have routine outpatient appointments and surgeries 7 days a week) without increasing the budget or the staffing for this, while social services funding is being reduced (it is so hard to discharge so many of our patients on the weekends because of this). Weekends are often when the hospitals have to overflow into escalation areas like day surgery because they can't discharge patients, but you won't be able to do that if you're increasing the number of surgeries and patients at the weekend.

Interestingly it also showed that you are less likely to actually die on the weekend compared to the week.

http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4596


Im aware of a similar study for surgery patients. The study Im thinking of only examined elective procedures though. Liver transplant is a 24/7 sort of thing, and refusing a liver when you need one is not going to end well for you.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:47 am UTC

That is not a fact that is in dispute. The point is how vulnerable patients can be misled by politicians who spin things for their own gain, without having to face any consequences for that.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:58 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:This begs an interesting question, can certain ideologies be considered a mental illness?


To me, a more interesting question: Can certain ideologies cause insanity? Going by ISIS...


Honestly, the answer is almost certainly yes. Abuse can be psychologically damaging, so any ideology that sanctions abuse probably does cause mental illness.

But that's sort of different from declaring roughly half the country to be mentally ill, simply because they happen to be on the side you disagree with. That's just hyperbole.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:56 pm UTC

A school district in the US state of Virginia has closed all schools on Friday after a geography lesson that included Islam sparked vociferous complaints from around the country.

Students were asked to trace Arabic calligraphy in an exercise some parents said amounted to indoctrination.

Officials said the schools were closed out of an abundance of caution and that there were no specific safety threats. School administrators say a different lesson will be used in the future.

One week ago, students at Riverheads High School were studying the Middle East and were asked to trace a piece of Arabic calligraphy that translated to: "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah".

Some pupils refused the assignment and parents accused the teacher of indoctrination, some calling for their sacking.

Officials with the Augusta County school district were quick to point out that the study of a region's religion and language are included in geography lessons. However, anger boiled and by Wednesday complaints had become so numerous that the school's doors were locked and monitored. By Friday, the messages - described as profane and hateful - had increased and the decision was made to close the schools.

Officials said that no specific threats were received, but law enforcement officials and the school district board had recommended the closure out of an abundance of caution. The lesson was intended to illustrate the complexity of the Arabic language, they said, and not meant to promote any religious system. But, they said, future classes will use a different, non-religious example of Arabic.

The decision to close the schools has drawn criticism as well: "It looks like fear wins again," a resident told the News Virginian newspaper.

On the paper's Facebook account, locals have been debating the closure with one man saying, "our patriot forefathers are rolling in their graves," and another rhetorically posting, "how do these terrified people leave their houses every day?"

Man alive. The country that spawned a thousand action heroes appears deathly afraid of its own shadow.

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KnightExemplar
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:04 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The country that spawned a thousand action heroes appears deathly afraid of its own shadow.


Its quite unfair to choose a hill-billy town in the middle of nowhere and then generalize that town's response to "The Entire Country"

Image

As soon as I read this story, I figured it was going to be in a location like that. Rural America is Rural, and has different ideals and concepts than where 90% of the country lives.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:09 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Tyndmyr
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:08 pm UTC

A statement of belief was maybe not the best choice to make there, but that reaction is hilarious, yeah.

KnightExemplar
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:17 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:A statement of belief was maybe not the best choice to make there, but that reaction is hilarious, yeah.


On the contrary. Understanding the religion of a region is extremely important. And writing down a common phrase (in the language of the region) sounds like a standard practice history lesson to me. I'd expect Chinese studies to include the writings of Confucius, maybe Buddha depending on the time period.

Even more ironic is that Virginia has a prominent Islamic school, IIRC in collaboration with the Saudi Arabia embassy. So the Augusta County residents are literally afraid of their own damn neighbors.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Tyndmyr
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:25 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:A statement of belief was maybe not the best choice to make there, but that reaction is hilarious, yeah.


On the contrary. Understanding the religion of a region is extremely important. And writing down a common phrase (in the language of the region) sounds like a standard practice history lesson to me. I'd expect Chinese studies to include the writings of Confucius, maybe Buddha depending on the time period.

Even more ironic is that Virginia has a prominent Islamic school, IIRC in collaboration with the Saudi Arabia embassy. So the Augusta County residents are literally afraid of their own damn neighbors.


Understanding is great. Writing statements of faith is not.

I would cheerfully endorse a lawsuit for a similar policy of say, writing a statement of belief in any other god as well.


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