The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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dg61
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby dg61 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:06 am UTC

dg61 wrote:
cphite wrote:
elasto wrote:
Zohar wrote:You guys keep assuming I'm having good ideas, when I already said I don't. In any case, I never said outlaw these pieces of writing. I said curate, and notify, and provide more information.


Well, they are already offering to do that, but it's very tricky.


On what basis are "they" qualified to do anything of the sort? And frankly, even if Facebook or whoever they entrust with the task are somehow qualified to determine what news is fake versus what is real; what makes you think they're not biased themselves? Facebook is above all else a business, do you really believe for a moment that they're not going to attempt to nudge popular opinion in ways that benefits their business?

In this day and age, not only do I see the BBC dismissed as biased, I even see Snopes discredited and condemned.


No news agency is immune from bias; not even the BBC. They all have biases based on their ownership, their major funding sources, their target audience, and so forth; it's inevitable.

Snopes is basically a handful of writers who like doing research. It's frankly a little weird how much faith people place in their conclusions. To be fair, it does seem like they're at least trying to be non biased; but that doesn't give them any sort of magic ability to detect truth above and beyond the rest of the web.

The problem is circular: People will only believe sites to be unbiased if they conform to their pre-existing views. If Facebook marks an article they like as 'fake news' they will assume Facebook has been commandeered by 'da man'...


Frankly, the moment that Facebook is deciding what is real or fake news in the first place - even if they get it right - firmly puts them in the category of 'da man'


Bias is a not very useful category outside of outright polemic or extreme slanting of the "birtherist" variety. It might be more useful to say that all news sources and writings have some kind of outlook; for example a conservative news publication will tend to report with somewhat of a conservative bent in terms of what it highlights in its stories and what stories it deems important(and its op-ed) board, likewise a broadly pro-establishment or anti-establishment source. Snopes is I think a special case because it originated as a fact-checking service rather than a news source per se; to be fair the one time I looked it up it did seem relatively fair to the claim I was critiquing(basically saying "it's a misunderstanding or misinterpertation of a correct statistic rather than an outright falsehood). What distinguishes say the BBC is that it's nonpartisan; i.e. it is beholden to not support this or that party line.

As for "Fake news"; it seems like half the problem is that 1) everything's fake news because nothing is and B) people tend to fetishize finding "the one reliable or unbiased source" and not picking apart the sources you have( like "This newspaper is almost certainly not going to report something that's false or outright mendacious, but expect it to put some kind of stories more prominently than others") or better yet looking at two or more
independent sources.


EDIT: I think it's almost better to have a fixed but somewhat biased/slanted(not The_Donald or TYT slanted but something where you can kinda tell how it leans) source that you can spot and is fixed than relying on facebook or social media, where the posting is curated in a way it's hard to tell what's actually what.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:35 am UTC

Coyne wrote:Yeah, well, it has absolutely no place in any professional relationship.


The following from the first article:

Mr Garnier also admitted that he and Ms Edmondson later fell out and that she had been using the incident against him "ever since".


Seemed to indicate there was a non-work relationship between the two, but looking at the other one and other details I don't think that's the case. The sex toys, for example, were not being bought for the woman in question but rather for two other women.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:24 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Coyne wrote:Yeah, well, it has absolutely no place in any professional relationship.


The following from the first article:

Mr Garnier also admitted that he and Ms Edmondson later fell out and that she had been using the incident against him "ever since".


Seemed to indicate there was a non-work relationship between the two, but looking at the other one and other details I don't think that's the case. The sex toys, for example, were not being bought for the woman in question but rather for two other women.


This seems to be a common discrediting tactic: namely, to paint the female accuser as "a woman scorned," and therefore overemotional, hysterical, humorless, etc., as opposed to the completely reasonable and logical man, who claims that anyone reasonable and logical would not have deemed such an innocent "boys-will-be-boys" type of prank inappropriate.

The problem is never the accused's behavior. The problem is always that the accuser has an ulterior motive (revenge, extortion, desire for public sympathy by playing the victim), and/or is simply too emotional to be a reliable reporter of what happened. Convenient how, when you do something outrageous to someone, it makes them too outraged to be credible.

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cyanyoshi
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby cyanyoshi » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:40 am UTC

Terror Attack Kills 8 and Injures 11 in Manhattan.

I'm a bit surprised it took so long for me to hear about this, given the current happenings in the US.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:15 pm UTC

cyanyoshi wrote:Terror Attack Kills 8 and Injures 11 in Manhattan.

I'm a bit surprised it took so long for me to hear about this, given the current happenings in the US.

Terrorism is overrated as a crime.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:31 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.
START has compiled the following information from its Global Terrorism Database.
According to the GTD, 80 Americans were killed in terrorist attacks from 2004 to 2013, including perpetrators and excluding deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq, the majority of which are combat-related. Of those 80 Americans killed, 36 were killed in attacks that occurred in the United States.
More broadly, 3,066 Americans have been killed in terrorist attacks from 9/11/2001 through 12/31/2014, including perpetrators and excluding deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. 2,961 of these deaths occurred on American soil. 2,902 of thesedeaths occurred during the attacks on September 11, 2001.
In the United States, annual deaths resulting from firearms total
2014: 33,599
2013: 33,636
2012: 33,563
2011: 32,351
2010: 31,672
2009: 31,347

In the United States, annual unintentional shooting deaths total
2014: 586
2013: 505
2012: 548
2011: 591
2010: 606
2009: 554
Falling out of bed kills 450 people annually in the U.S.
Dogs kill 34 people per year in the U.S.
High school and college football injuries claim an average of 12 lives annually.
Cows cause the death of about 20 Americans each year, mostly from blunt-force trauma.
Bee stings kill about 100 people in the U.S. every year.
Horses kill about 20 people annually in the U.S. alone.
Falls from ladders cause about 355 deaths annually in the U.S. Another reason not to walk under them.
In the U.S., about 100 people die annually from being scalded by hot tap water.
Falling icicles kill about 15 people in the U.S. each year.


I'd rather not tell the terrorists they need to try harder but you're right. They do have a lot of catching up to do.

-----

We've got a bit of a headless chicken act going on, ourselves.
Conservative MPs were scathing over the appointment of Ms May’s trusted lieutenant Gavin Williamson as Defence Secretary ...
A senior general also publicly criticised the appointment, telling The Independent it would have been better “from a defence point of view” if someone else had been given the job.
One senior Tory MP said: “Gavin is all about making sure Gavin is in a position from which Gavin can become Prime Minister. In this instance he has been judge, jury and executioner to Fallon and he is now also the beneficiary.”
Much of the dismay focused on the fact that Mr Williamson has no experience in connection with the military, let alone running a major government department.
Better hope we don't need our military any time in the next ... er ... ten years or so?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Jumble » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

Interesting debate following the resignation of 'Sir' Michael Fallon for behaviour he believes was appropriate ten years ago, but is not appropriate now. I beg to differ. It may have been more tolerated , but it was never appropriate.

I remember in the days ten to twenty years ago, when I would walk down a street with my girlfriend and she would get wolf-whistled / cat-called. I used to blow a kiss back to the moron responsible, but it was never okay. It's time we owned up the failures of the past.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KittenKaboodle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:58 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.


True, but Vehicular homicide is very underrated as a crime, If the guy had been white with an American flag in the truck, a plastic Jesus on the dashboard and claimed "the sun got in my eyes", this might have just been a "tragic accident", with little more than a traffic ticket (well, and a civil suit, but one can drag their feet about paying a judgment from that)

Never mind that it is a driver's responsibility to know where they are going, if you can't see, stop, if conditions are hazardous, slow down.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:03 pm UTC

KittenKaboodle wrote:
sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.


True, but Vehicular homicide is very underrated as a crime, If the guy had been white with an American flag in the truck, a plastic Jesus on the dashboard and claimed "the sun got in my eyes", this might have just been a "tragic accident", with little more than a traffic ticket (well, and a civil suit, but one can drag their feet about paying a judgment from that)

Never mind that it is a driver's responsibility to know where they are going, if you can't see, stop, if conditions are hazardous, slow down.


Citation fucking needed.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:28 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
KittenKaboodle wrote:
sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.


True, but Vehicular homicide is very underrated as a crime, If the guy had been white with an American flag in the truck, a plastic Jesus on the dashboard and claimed "the sun got in my eyes", this might have just been a "tragic accident", with little more than a traffic ticket (well, and a civil suit, but one can drag their feet about paying a judgment from that)

Never mind that it is a driver's responsibility to know where they are going, if you can't see, stop, if conditions are hazardous, slow down.


Citation fucking needed.


He became a prosecutor for Greater Manchester Police after he graduated in law in 1979. Then used his forensic knowledge of the Road Traffic Act to defend motorists and - ironically - became the scourge of GMP.

In 1999 he hit the big time when he famously helped David Beckham avoid a speeding rap, claiming he was fleeing the paparazzi for ten miles through Cheshire.

When Sir Alex Ferguson was caught avoiding a traffic jam by driving down the hard shoulder of a motorway in 1999,

Mr Loophole successfully argued Fergie had no choice because he had a stomach bug and was rushing to get to the toilet at United’s training ground.

Ex-cricket star Andrew Flintoff was accused of driving at 87mph in a temporary 50mph zone on the M62 in 2007.

The lawyer pointed out the documents were sent out 16 days after the alleged offence – and the law says the paperwork should be given to the defendant within two weeks.

Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson was charged with speeding at 82mph in a 50mph zone in west London in 2006. Mr Loophole had the case dropped within minutes, successfully arguing the offending Alfa Romeo had been loaned by the car company and that any of the Top Gear team could have been at the wheel.

Ronnie O’Sullivan was accused of failing to provide police with a urine sample when suspected of drink-driving in 2007.

But the snooker star was cleared following evidence that he may have had psychological problems which prevented him from being able to urinate.

Golfer Colin Montgomerie’s BMW X5 was recorded doing 37pmh in a 30mph road in Carlisle in 2010.

He was originally banned from driving but the Mr Loophole ensured the conviction was overturned because the operator of the speed gun also trained the device on pedestrians and joggers, against the rules for operating such equipment.

In 2011 Freeman caused outrage when he accused some women of victimising men by dressing in a sexually provocative way.

After the conviction of one of his clients for knocking down Hyman Steinberg, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, he said pedestrians should ‘assume some responsibility to ensure their visibility’.


... and that's barely onto "Page 2 of about 3,380,000 results" for an obvious search.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:35 pm UTC

Is it me, or all of those results from Great Britain?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:43 am UTC

It's you. One's from Ireland and one's from Australia.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:25 am UTC

And did any of those cases involve "an American flag in the truck"? No?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:55 am UTC

No but they all seem to be white, I think Sableagle wasn't taking the post completely literally but rather to be making the point that white people get away with it more easily.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:42 pm UTC

But Kitten made the specific accusation that it was an America specific thing.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:05 pm UTC

Possibly? Not entirely sure tbh.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
KittenKaboodle wrote:
sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.


True, but Vehicular homicide is very underrated as a crime,...


Citation fucking needed.

Not really. He's just making the point that it's hard to tell the difference between this and some accidents.. It is a bad comparison though, because there is a big difference of intent.
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby morriswalters » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:01 pm UTC

Liberals drive carelessly as well, resurrect Ted Kennedy and ask him. The only study I could find suggested that who got killed had more to do with the punishment, than who was driving. Since no one seems to care about looking for a citation, I won't link. The poster also wrote a paragraph, where the bulk of the text was a shot at a particular demographic. But in my heart, I know he didn't mean it that way.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:52 pm UTC

morriswalters?
Do you think all commuters are Right Wing Wing Nuts?
Not all are tuned into AM Talk Radio. (jeeze)
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:52 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
KittenKaboodle wrote:
sardia wrote:Terrorism is overrated as a crime.


True, but Vehicular homicide is very underrated as a crime,...


Citation fucking needed.

Not really. He's just making the point that it's hard to tell the difference between this and some accidents.. It is a bad comparison though, because there is a big difference of intent.


The problem is he's trying to say it's a white Christian American thing, rather than just a thing. But until Kitten comes back to try to defend their claims, I'd rather not fight about it. As for the point you think kitten was making, well, it's easier for nurses to commit mass murder than drivers. A driver kills two different people, and that's going to raise some pretty big flags. A couple patients die in a hospital? Routine.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby orthogon » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:48 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:Interesting debate following the resignation of 'Sir' Michael Fallon for behaviour he believes was appropriate ten years ago, but is not appropriate now. I beg to differ. It may have been more tolerated , but it was never appropriate.

I remember in the days ten to twenty years ago, when I would walk down a street with my girlfriend and she would get wolf-whistled / cat-called. I used to blow a kiss back to the moron responsible, but it was never okay. It's time we owned up the failures of the past.

Yeah, that claim has been questioned by many since your post. It's as though he grasped for an excuse and alighted on one that he'd heard others using: "the culture was different in the '70s". But in his case, the historic period in question was the early 2000s, which don't feel all that long ago at all; I was already in the workplace at that time, and, the way I remember it, the standards in this area were pretty much established in their current form. And in fact, if anything, things have gone backwards since those hopeful days, thanks in part to the efforts of Farage, Trump et al.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:55 pm UTC

Texas church shooting... For actual links to news items, choose your own favoured outlet, but I thought it worth mentioning it, here under the Darker Side.

(Trump is "monitoring". Hasn't yet said terrorism, and shooter confirmed dead by the authorities whose fuller confidential findings will have reached Trump , so likely he's white and not useful under that agenda. If you don't mind some personal cynicism.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby morriswalters » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

@addams
I don't pretend to know. But it seems like a matter of convenience here to nudge at the right using stereotypes. Just trying to go along with the crowd.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:13 am UTC

What stereotype? Kitten said "an American flag" not "a Confederate flag."

The shooting occurred at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs in Wilson County, about 40 miles (65 km) east of San Antonio.

Neither the suspect’s identity nor any possible motive were disclosed by authorities.

The 14-year-old daughter of pastor Frank Pomeroy was killed, the family told several television stations.
url=https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Sutherland+Springs,+TX+78161,+USA/@29.2734322,-98.0612572,1971m]Small place[/url], population under 900, at least 27 dead. Grim. Very grim.

Asshole has been identified and, yup, white.

"We have never had this happen before," Morales said.
Not in that square mile, maybe.
"It's all just very upsetting."
There may be a few other adjectives that apply too, besides "upsetting," like maybe insane, ridiculous, obscene, horrific and ... familiar ...

Cue "too soon to talk gun control" versus "time for gun control." Didn't we just have this conversation?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Jumble » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:44 am UTC

Spoiler:
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Oregonaut wrote:CURSE YOU VILLAIN!!
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:44 pm UTC

"This is a mental health problem at the highest level."

So true.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Liri » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:48 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:"This is a mental health problem at the highest level."

So true.

A cry for help?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby elasto » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:11 pm UTC

Trump says it's a mental health issue yet axed rule making it harder for those with mental health issues to obtain guns...

link

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:24 pm UTC

well, we know what the only thing that will change the minds of the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot.

Not condoning it, but you and I both know that when it happens to other people (code word among Republicans for the poor and/or brown), it doesn't really count.


Seriously, if they weren't willing to do anything after Sandy Hook, why the fuck does anyone expect anything different this time?


thoughts and prayers my ass.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Leovan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:28 pm UTC

I'm confused as to how Trump knows it's a mental health issue. As far as I have read the only mental problem the shooter had was that he beat his wives, so if that makes for a deranged person then Trump himself would be... nevermind...
Is this the same strategy Trump uses with terrorist attacks, where he's the first to call it such before anything else is known, so he can tell everyone "I told you so" if it was an immigrant, and already drew the benefit of being 'tough on terrorists' if he was wrong? I feel like he's messing up the timing on the rote responses for everyone.

On the plus side, the Texas strategy of everyone being armed so you can fight back seemed to have worked more or less. The less part being that 26 people still died with 20+ injured. Not sure how that compares to the "make it hard for the shooters to get guns, and if they do anyway wait for the police" strategy.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:well, we know what the only thing that will change the minds of the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot.


And then the gun lobby will elect a new candidate. Now, if the gun lobbyists had kids in a shooting...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:59 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:well, we know what the only thing that will change the minds of the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot.


And then the gun lobby will elect a new candidate. Now, if the gun lobbyists had kids in a shooting...

And then the gun lobby will hire a new lobbyist.
What's sad is that statistically, mass shootings motivate lawmakers into relaxing gun laws.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:11 pm UTC

And when the gun industry itself has one of their kids murdered? CEO just gets replaced.

Maybe we should prevent people from lobbying in the first place?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby mcd001 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:19 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:well, we know what the only thing that will change the minds of the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot

I haven't heard that Congressman Steve Scalise (shot at softball practice by a left-wing activist on 14 June) has changed his position on gun control, so it seems you don't actually know what you think you know.

eran_rathan wrote:Not condoning it, but you and I both know that when it happens to other people (code word among Republicans for the poor and/or brown), it doesn't really count.

Not condoning it, but you're obviously okay with it. Probably because it happened to southern baptists (code word among liberals for white, conservative Christians), so it doesn't really count.

Can you see how nasty what you wrote appears when it's re-written from a different perspective?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:29 pm UTC

Mass shootings are bad examples to use when trying to lobby for stricter gun control anyways. Many would legitimately not be affected by tighter restrictions/training on firearms anyways. They're also, statistically, very rare compared to the real problems with gun violence. But they get the most media attention so on that hand they're the best way to try and push the narrative to your side. The problem is the opposition has valid reasons in pointing out that the proposed measures probably wouldn't have changed the outcome in these cases.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:37 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Not condoning it, but you and I both know that when it happens to other people (code word among Republicans for the poor and/or brown), it doesn't really count.

Not condoning it, but you're obviously okay with it. Probably because it happened to southern baptists (code word among liberals for white, conservative Christians), so it doesn't really count.

Can you see how nasty what you wrote appears when it's re-written from a different perspective?


But the truth of the statement matters. There really does seem to be a pattern that Republican politicians only support government intervention when it affects them and their families, so they definitely don't seem to concern themselves with others. Then when you look at how their tax plans, it's all about benefiting their side at the expense of the other (arbitrarily large corporate tax cut, and then pick and choose changes that will increase taxes on liberals to get it under the target). They don't really believe in anything, they just act selfishly and with contempt for anyone that doesn't benefit from their policies.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:39 pm UTC

I've always been in favor of restricting handguns. Not very useful for home defense compared to a shotgun, very useful for crimes.

Or better yet, a recycling surcharge on all guns? Make them $50 more expensive so the junkies can't afford them or trade them in for drug money?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:44 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I've always been in favor of restricting handguns. Not very useful for home defense compared to a shotgun, very useful for crimes.

I thought about this. Problem I can see is someone who is relatively small or weak might not have the strength to use a shotgun, while they could use a handgun. On the plus side, fewer people would be killed by their own toddler.

But yeah, handguns are used in the vast, vast majority of crimes due to being easily concealed.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:57 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:well, we know what the only thing that will change the minds of the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot

I haven't heard that Congressman Steve Scalise (shot at softball practice by a left-wing activist on 14 June) has changed his position on gun control, so it seems you don't actually know what you think you know.

eran_rathan wrote:Not condoning it, but you and I both know that when it happens to other people (code word among Republicans for the poor and/or brown), it doesn't really count.

Not condoning it, but you're obviously okay with it. Probably because it happened to southern baptists (code word among liberals for white, conservative Christians), so it doesn't really count.

Can you see how nasty what you wrote appears when it's re-written from a different perspective?


I'll break it down for you, since there is obviously some miscommunication.

"It", in my previous sentence, refers to "the assholes in charge - when they or their kids get shot"; not, in fact, the mass shooting in Texas. But nice try.

Regarding Scalise, the cynical part of me wonders if it is because he's worried about being primaried, or if he doesn't want to lose the campaign contributions from the NRA. As Thesh notes, most Republicans of the past twenty years have seemed less and less principled and more and more the party of "I've got mine, so fuck you."
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

I suppose the exception could be made for people with one arm, but I'm under the impression that if you can't handle even a 20 gauge shotgun or a .22 rifle you shouldnt be near any gun at all.


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