Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:24 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Yep, they did that after they were the victors. While the conflict was still going on they shot and bombed countless Germans.

The political conflict surrounding the rights of gay couples is still going on.


But the real goal in THIS conflict is not for Us to defeat Them. It is for Us to win people's minds and hearts, through empathy, so that they become Us.

The opponents of gay rights have always treated it as an Us vs. Them battle, and that's why they're losing.

The proponents of gay rights have hitherto been very successful because they have NOT treated it as an Us vs. Them battle. They have emphasized what gay couples have in common with the rest of society, and how it is to society's benefit to be inclusive.

The reason the Eich situation is so troubling is that it abandons the very successful "look at all we have in common" tactic, and reverts to primitive Us vs. Them thinking.

I guess we'll just have to disagree that this is not a good thing.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:39 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:But the real goal in THIS conflict is not for Us to defeat Them. It is for Us to win people's minds and hearts, through empathy, so that they become Us.
Says who? I want equality now, and I want bigots to live the rest of their lives quietly, keeping their bigotry to themselves. I don't want bigots to become all loving and accepting of things, I want them to keep their bigotry quiet. I'm not interested in convincing homophobes that gay people are people too, and that son you beat and kicked out of the house is a really good person, I want them to keep their mouths shut and their 'morals' out of politics.

ObsessoMom wrote:The opponents of gay rights have always treated it as an Us vs. Them battle, and that's why they're losing.
I'd like to think they're losing because the world is moving on. There are still racists in the world today, but the civil rights movement didn't neccesarily succeed because racists saw the light of day; it succeeded because minorities fought a good fight and reason and decency prevailed OVER bigotry.

ObsessoMom wrote:The proponents of gay rights have hitherto been very successful because they have NOT treated it as an Us vs. Them battle. They have emphasized what gay couples have in common with the rest of society, and how it is to society's benefit to be inclusive.
Maybe. I think they've succeeded because they've continued fighting their cause, and not been silent, and because people like us who feel very strongly about equality have also fought and not been silent.

ObsessoMom wrote:The reason the Eich situation is so troubling is that it abandons the very successful "look at all we have in common" tactic, and reverts to primitive Us vs. Them thinking.
No, again, it doesn't; it reminds everyone that your actions have consequences. I would expect, and not be surprised by, a pro-life organization firing from their ranks someone who supported planned parenthood. I would expect, and not be surprised by, a business firing someone who refused to abide by the basic requirements of their job.

Respectfully, I really don't think you've listened to the explanations given for what actually happened with Eich. It was not a witchhunt or a lynching, it was not a silencing of freedom of speech, it was not violent or cruel or oppressive or 'fall in' or anything else. It was the following through with the ramifications for his actions. HIS actions.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:11 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:The reason the Eich situation is so troubling is that it abandons the very successful "look at all we have in common" tactic, and reverts to primitive Us vs. Them thinking.
No, again, it doesn't; it reminds everyone that your actions have consequences. I would expect, and not be surprised by, a pro-life organization firing from their ranks someone who supported planned parenthood. I would expect, and not be surprised by, a business firing someone who refused to abide by the basic requirements of their job.

Respectfully, I really don't think you've listened to the explanations given for what actually happened with Eich. It was not a witchhunt or a lynching, it was not a silencing of freedom of speech, it was not violent or cruel or oppressive or 'fall in' or anything else. It was the following through with the ramifications for his actions. HIS actions.


Yeah, it totally is an abandonment of that tactic. A "this is the consequences if you disagree" strategy is incompatible with the open-armed "we're basically all the same" approach.

And nobody is saying it's a freedom of speech issue. Holy god, the strawmanning so far...

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby felltir » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:18 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:And nobody is saying it's a freedom of speech issue.


Are you fucking sure about that?

For bonus points, that last one's a quote from you.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:22 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Yeah, it totally is an abandonment of that tactic. A "this is the consequences if you disagree" strategy is incompatible with the open-armed "we're basically all the same" approach.
We've been perfectly clear that this *ISN'T* about disagreement with our given politics as much as the consequence for the politics he chose. Mozilla is an organization that prides itself on equality, AND, Mozilla employees were calling for Eich's resignation. No one is saying 'if you disagree with liberals you lose your job'.

Tyndmyr wrote:And nobody is saying it's a freedom of speech issue. Holy god, the strawmanning so far...
... Dude, the ENTIRETY of your, ObsessoMom, KEs, Heisenbergs, and morriswalters is 'so when the freedom of expression mafia comes for you, what will you think then'. On this VERY page, I called YOU specifically out:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:This is clearly an attempt to put pressure on the company to oust him.
So? OkCupid is subject to the repercussions of that action as well.

The thing I hear you saying is that it's ok for Eich to use his freedom of speech, and it's not ok for Mozilla employees or OkCupid to use theirs.
Respectfully, the WHOLE of this thread is you people whinging about an infringement of freedom of speech, so... Yeah, explain yourself.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:39 pm UTC

felltir wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:And nobody is saying it's a freedom of speech issue.


Are you fucking sure about that?

For bonus points, that last one's a quote from you.


Freedom of speech is freedom from government. That's what the first amendment covers.

Regardless of agreement or not on this, it ain't that kind of an issue. Nobody's rights are being infringed. No laws should be written to prevent this.

But just because something CAN be done, does not mean it should be done.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:41 pm UTC

So Izawwlgood, your'e perfectly happy if people disagree with you, as long as they shut up and never question you (or else)? What a great way to always be right about everything!
If you can't see why "us people" are just a little concerned about how that would play out in practice, I don't know what to say.

You're supporting the deployment of a weapon that'll end up being used on everyone, by everyone. It really hit home for me once activists started talking about how everyone with my sex and sexuality needs to shut up, because gay men are apparently privileged bigots now. That hurt, but what finally convinced me this whole business is insane and self-destructive were the attacks on "allies" who were deemed insufficiently deferential to The Movement.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:46 pm UTC

No, my argument has never been 'so when the freedom of expression mafia comes for you, what will you think then'.

My argument is that minority rights are often dependent on the will of the majority, and so--like it or not--attention must be paid to the majority's perceptions (and misperceptions) of actions in support of minority rights.

The fact that the majority may be wrong, and/or motivated by self-interest and fear, doesn't matter. Attention still must be paid. Yes, that sucks. But the reality remains.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:53 pm UTC

Altereggo wrote:You're supporting the deployment of a weapon that'll end up being used on everyone, by everyone.


Deployment? Will end up being used? It's *always* been the case that expressing sufficiently unpopular (relative to whatever subculture) views will hurt your career.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:57 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Altereggo wrote:You're supporting the deployment of a weapon that'll end up being used on everyone, by everyone.


Deployment? Will end up being used? It's *always* been the case that expressing sufficiently unpopular (relative to whatever subculture) views will hurt your career.


And I would have hoped our opinion about that would be more along the lines of
Image

than "the evildoersthinkers will get what they deserve".
Some people here, especially the ones who pride themselves on being "progressive", can't seem to imagine this kind of tactic being used against them. They're on the "right side of history", and will always be considered righteous and above reproach. :roll:
Those of us who are worried about someday losing a political battle and suffering punishment for it years later probably have an easier time seeing the problem.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:08 pm UTC

I don't who those people are, but I'm certainly not one of them. I think that public opinion cuts both ways - it hurts people who agree with me and people who disagree with me. I'm happier when the latter happens than when the former does.

I just don't get the implication that there's some sort of dangerous precedent here. There has never been a time when you can just say anything you want and not have people bitch about you. And people bitching about you always has the risk of employers considering you a liability (depending on intensity, subculture, etc.)

Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:12 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"


Seriously. The point of that comic is that you shouldn't care, not that it shouldn't happen.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:21 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"


Seriously. The point of that comic is that you shouldn't care, not that it shouldn't happen.


And I should hope it also implies he wouldn't try to do it to anyone else, and would renounce the temptation to out of respect for his own dreams.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:24 pm UTC

Altereggo wrote:You're supporting the deployment of a weapon that'll end up being used on everyone, by everyone. It really hit home for me once activists started talking about how everyone with my sex and sexuality needs to shut up, because gay men are apparently privileged bigots now.


Yeah, it's the coalition building that really gets things done. There is an element of fighting for rights that totally needs to happen...but not *everything* is a time to fight. That's just bad strategy. Pick your battles.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:27 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Pick your battles.


NONO, don't say that! That's on their bingo cards! http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Bingo_card
It'll get you crucified.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:27 pm UTC

Altereggo wrote:
Belial wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"


Seriously. The point of that comic is that you shouldn't care, not that it shouldn't happen.


And I should hope it also implies he wouldn't try to do it to anyone else, and would renounce the temptation to out of respect for his own dreams.


I would hope that randy hasn't suddenly started dreaming of oppressing minorities.

Content matters.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:28 pm UTC

Altereggo wrote:
Belial wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"


Seriously. The point of that comic is that you shouldn't care, not that it shouldn't happen.


And I should hope it also implies he wouldn't try to do it to anyone else, and would renounce the temptation to out of respect for his own dreams.
As you would have known had you actually read any of this thread before deciding that what it needed most was your opinion, everyone else here understands the difference between posting on a blog that you don't support gay marriage and donating $1000 to the effort to make gay marriage illegal. The comic could possibly stretch to include the first, but there's no indication whatsoever that it would equally apply to the second.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:
Belial wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Edit: Note that the comic just talks about the importance of speaking your beliefs and letting your creativity be free- it doesn't say "and it better not cost me any jobs!"


Seriously. The point of that comic is that you shouldn't care, not that it shouldn't happen.


And I should hope it also implies he wouldn't try to do it to anyone else, and would renounce the temptation to out of respect for his own dreams.
As you would have known had you actually read any of this thread before deciding that what it needed most was your opinion, everyone else here understands the difference between posting on a blog that you don't support gay marriage and donating $1000 to the effort to make gay marriage illegal. The comic could possibly stretch to include the first, but there's no indication whatsoever that it would equally apply to the second.


And I'm sure you've got an excuse for why everything you don't like isn't worth protecting for the sake of principle. Personally, I consider "someone was on the opposite side of a political debate I feel strong about" a perfect opportunity to exercise restraint.
Considering how little effort you put into even considering the concerns of "freeze peachers", I wonder how willing you would be to extend the same courtesy. Can you think of a time when you have? Or when you'll have the opportunity to do it in the future?

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby morriswalters » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:49 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:... Dude, the ENTIRETY of your, ObsessoMom, KEs, Heisenbergs, and morriswalters is 'so when the freedom of expression mafia comes for you, what will you think then'.
Yep. I confess. :D With one caveat. If he goes down the street gay baiting or discriminating then fuck him. If he goes to the polls and someone goes after him then fuck them. If you can't see the difference I can't help you.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:50 pm UTC

Altereggo wrote:I consider "someone was on the opposite side of a political debate I feel strong about" a perfect opportunity to exercise restraint.

Content.
Fucking.
Matters.

"A political debate I feel strong about" could be literally anything. Being on the opposite side of some of those (e.g. a debate on whether to change street cleaning from second and fourth Tuesdays to second and fourth Thursdays) is not something I'm going to get terribly vehement about. Being on the opposite side of others (e.g. a debate on whether to sterilize "undesirables" or expel all foreign-born residents) absolutely *is* something I'm going to object to vehemently.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:02 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:I consider "someone was on the opposite side of a political debate I feel strong about" a perfect opportunity to exercise restraint.

Content.
Fucking.
Matters.

"A political debate I feel strong about" could be literally anything. Being on the opposite side of some of those (e.g. a debate on whether to change street cleaning from second and fourth Tuesdays to second and fourth Thursdays) is not something I'm going to get terribly vehement about. Being on the opposite side of others (e.g. a debate on whether to sterilize "undesirables" or expel all foreign-born residents) absolutely *is* something I'm going to object to vehemently.


I feel strongly about a lot of things, many of which a lot of people disagree with equally strongly. I know I'm likely to be wrong about my beliefs at least half of the time, and probably some-degree-of-right-for-the-wrong-reasons in many other cases. I'm certainly humble enough about my reasoning abilities to admit that opinions that differ from mine should be allowed to exist.
Especially when about half the people in my country disagree with me, I'm liable to be very forgiving on the "I disagree but respect your right to challenge me politically without being personally attacked for it" front.
People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is. If we're going to start twitter wars over every issue that's a 50/50 split, is anyone safe from it?

And before someone chimes in with "you only care because it's a privileged white guy", think about it this way: if we normalize this behaviour, who's more likely to suffer from it more often? Privileged white people whose majority opinions have significant media support, or disenfranchised minorities with minority opinions that are ignored by the majority?
Last edited by Altereggo on Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:09 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:08 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is.
So it would have been okay if he'd been a Holocaust supporter, just so long as enough other people were equally terrible?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:19 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is.
So it would have been okay if he'd been a Holocaust supporter, just so long as enough other people were equally terrible?


Great, pick the one that's guaranteed to make the thread go full Godwin...
How about something else a lot of people disagree(d) on? It has to be a strong disagreement that could be painted as rights-destroying regardless of which side you support, but not one that won't end up killing the thread.
Why not take a historical one that nobody cares about now? Catholics vs Protestants on the English throne, for example?

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:23 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is.
So it would have been okay if he'd been a Holocaust supporter, just so long as enough other people were equally terrible?


Great, pick the one that's guaranteed to make the thread go full Godwin...
How about something else a lot of people disagree(d) on? It has to be a strong disagreement that could be painted as rights-destroying regardless of which side you support, but not one that won't end up killing the thread.
Why not take a historical one that nobody cares about now? Catholics vs Protestants on the English throne, for example?


"Hey, I realize you said content matters, but can we please compare this issue, which affects the wellbeing of many people on the basis of them simply existing, to something that just doesn't matter at all? I mean, they're both issues, right, and all issues are fundamentally identical?"
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:24 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is.
So it would have been okay if he'd been a Holocaust supporter, just so long as enough other people were equally terrible?


Great, pick the one that's guaranteed to make the thread go full Godwin...
How about something else a lot of people disagree(d) on? It has to be a strong disagreement that could be painted as rights-destroying regardless of which side you support, but not one that won't end up killing the thread.
Why not take a historical one that nobody cares about now? Catholics vs Protestants on the English throne, for example?
...I picked the Holocaust because that's the thing you yourself were talking about right there in that bit I quoted in my post that you quoted. See it? It's right there!
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:26 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:People keep comparing Eich to someone supporting the Holocaust, as if half of California voted in favour of the holocaust just a few election cycles ago. "Content fucking matters", but so does how widely held a belief is.
So it would have been okay if he'd been a Holocaust supporter, just so long as enough other people were equally terrible?


Great, pick the one that's guaranteed to make the thread go full Godwin...
How about something else a lot of people disagree(d) on? It has to be a strong disagreement that could be painted as rights-destroying regardless of which side you support, but not one that won't end up killing the thread.
Why not take a historical one that nobody cares about now? Catholics vs Protestants on the English throne, for example?


"Hey, I realize you said content matters, but can we please compare this issue, which affects the wellbeing of many people on the basis of them simply existing, to something that just doesn't matter at all? I mean, they're both issues, right, and all issues are fundamentally identical?"


Who got on the english throne affected the well-being of many people at the time (who ended up getting burned alive, for example), but it's something that talking about won't cause people to jump down each other's throats NOW.
Rather than take it as an opportunity to sling insults and shut down discussion, maybe you could consider that I'm doing it to try and improve the tone of the debate a little?

And gmalivuk, I mentioned the Holocaust as a horrible example that didn't make sense at all. It's disgusting that people are using it (and slavery, for god's sake!) as an exact parallel with half the country not yet supporting marriage rights. I certainly didn't mean for you to take the comparison and try to use it yourself...

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:32 am UTC

You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.

And hey, slavery is another good issue: half the country was once on one side of that issue and half was on the other, so it fits your "how many people believe it" criterion as well!
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:36 am UTC

From my spotty remembrance of english history, it also came down to two sides who were equally zealous about destroying and disempowering each other.

There is no "strip rights from straight people" movement in the US. It is impossible to imply that both "sides" of the gay rights issue are "just as bad" and be taken seriously. The "sides" are "please let me live my life as an equal human being" and "No". Thus making a mutually antagonistic scenario with no clear aggressor, like the one you've chosen, a terrible analogy.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:37 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.


I can usually make a decent effort to put myself in someone else's shoes--imagining their concerns as my own, but staying dispassionate enough to think rationally. Can you think of something you could do that with? I'm going for empathy without bile here--would you rather we use abortion or guns?

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:39 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.


I can usually make a decent effort to put myself in someone else's shoes--imagining their concerns as my own, but staying dispassionate enough to think rationally. Can you think of something you could do that with? I'm going for empathy without bile here--would you rather we use abortion or guns?
As Belial points out, anything where two mostly equal sides hold opposing views fails as an analogy to the present situation, where one side is in favor of actively taking rights from the other.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:47 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.


I can usually make a decent effort to put myself in someone else's shoes--imagining their concerns as my own, but staying dispassionate enough to think rationally. Can you think of something you could do that with? I'm going for empathy without bile here--would you rather we use abortion or guns?
As Belial points out, anything where two mostly equal sides hold opposing views fails as an analogy to the present situation, where one side is in favor of actively taking rights from the other.


Almost everything that people have strong disagreements on is framed in terms of both sides having some legitimate grievance with the other. Which side we've retroactively declared "pure righteous" is usually a matter of who won (Tories in the American Revolution, anyone?).
If accepting the existence of differing opinions is predicated on "the other side isn't trying to take something from me", we will never accept them. We always see the other side as trying to take something from us, especially if it helps us justify actions we take against them.
The ability to look at a person and say "this person disagrees with me, and has opinions which I think are harmful to me" without feeling the need to punish him for it once I win is the foundation for a political system that doesn't implode into an orgy of retribution after every debate.

We got gay marriage by popular vote in Washington, only a few years after prop8. Our way works. The Californian way just causes more fighting.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:53 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:Almost everything that people have strong disagreements on is framed in terms of both sides having some legitimate grievance with the other.
And that's my problem how? I've already picked a couple examples that aren't framed that way, but instead as one side taking rights from the other, and you rejected them as being too divisive or some shit.

Yes well, welcome to the fact that people don't like having their rights taken away.

once I win
Again with this bit of ridiculous nonsense. You keep bringing up concerns about "once we win" in a society that still mostly treats LGBTQ people as second-class citizens now.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:56 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:Almost everything that people have strong disagreements on is framed in terms of both sides having some legitimate grievance with the other.


Please use your own ability to think, in order to critically assess those grievances. Can you see why "I'm angry that indigenous peoples are wasting all this good land" or "I'm upset that africans are living their lives on another continent and not providing me with free labor" are not actually legitimate grievances?

Can you see why "OH SHIT THESE PEOPLE ARE KILLING AND ENSLAVING US" is?

Can you see why portraying "punching a dude" and "having a really punchable face" as equal offenses is pseudointellectual horseshit?
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:07 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:Almost everything that people have strong disagreements on is framed in terms of both sides having some legitimate grievance with the other.
And that's my problem how? I've already picked a couple examples that aren't framed that way, but instead as one side taking rights from the other, and you rejected them as being too divisive or some shit.

Yes well, welcome to the fact that people don't like having their rights taken away.

once I win
Again with this bit of ridiculous nonsense. You keep bringing up concerns about "once we win" in a society that still mostly treats LGBTQ people as second-class citizens now.


Are you kidding me? My dad was a second class citizen (those sorts of people weren't allowed bank accounts, or even to use the front door), and you think I've got things more serious than that to worry about? The dinky little cross I've got to bear is such an insignificant weight that threatening people it over seems insane. The problem with Americans is that they have no idea how good they've got it, and don't care what they have to wreck to make it even better, NOW. Americans treat their political environment with even less respect than their environment environment...

If you would like to use slavery as an example, sure! Half the country was on one side, half on the other, because a whole bunch of un- and semi-related political debates got rolled up into an unsolvable mess through confrontational politics. And you fought a giant bloody war over it that killed 1 in 50 people in the country. And even then you didn't seek major punitive retribution against people on the losing side! I think it's a perfect example of "sometimes things are worth fighting over: for everything else, there's a decent bloody political system based on tolerance and respect for other people's values, and we have it so that we fight a lot less stupid wars".
How far will you take your absolute stance against injustice? What are you willing to do your opponents to get your way? And what do you expect them to do about that threat? You don't think they'll start forming alliances to counter the threat and do unto you before you do unto them? Where do you think that will end? Because it's a common theme in history, and one I'd rather like to avoid living through.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:10 am UTC

And...you're still talking about retribution after one side wins.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:15 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.


I can usually make a decent effort to put myself in someone else's shoes--imagining their concerns as my own, but staying dispassionate enough to think rationally. Can you think of something you could do that with? I'm going for empathy without bile here--would you rather we use abortion or guns?
As Belial points out, anything where two mostly equal sides hold opposing views fails as an analogy to the present situation, where one side is in favor of actively taking rights from the other.


I assure you, the pro-gun side views the anti-gun side as taking rights from us. You may have heard them reference the 2nd amendment once or even twice. Right to keep an bear arms and all that.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Altereggo » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:20 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And...you're still talking about retribution after one side wins.


Will you not declare victory until no stones of your enemy's temples are standing on another? Until you've ground their faces into the dirt and made them beg for forgiveness for every time "one of them" called me a faggot?
I can get married because we convinced the people of my state to accept us. That's victory.
And I think I'm going to go enjoy being victoryful over dinner, so goodnight to everyone.

And if I find out the waiter secretly voted against gay marriage, and doesn't much like us, I won't even need to have him fired to feel satisfied. That's the kind of attainable victory I can enjoy.


Edit: Tyndmyr, that's exactly why I didn't want to bring ANY of those things up, because if people here aren't capable of dispassionately talking about political systems without bringing in a load of emotional baggage, they're sure not capable of talking about THAT subject without it turning into a shitfest.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:21 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:And...you're still talking about retribution after one side wins.
I can get married because we convinced the people of my state to accept us.
And therefore all gays can get married everywhere now!

Altereggo wrote:And if I find out the waiter secretly voted against gay marriage, and doesn't much like us, I won't even need to have him fired to feel satisfied. That's the kind of attainable victory I can enjoy.
Yeah, kind of like how none of the rest of us would be in favor of firing a waiter for supporting prop 8, either.
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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:33 am UTC

Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:And...you're still talking about retribution after one side wins.


Will you not declare victory until no stones of your enemy's temples are standing on another? Until you've ground their faces into the dirt and made them beg for forgiveness for every time "one of them" called me a faggot?
I can get married because we convinced the people of my state to accept us. That's victory.


Same here. Got to vote for it, which will, I imagine, be a fun thing to tell the kids(should I ever have them. Otherwise, I get to be the rambling old guy), along with describing using a rotary phone and so forth. I ain't saying that it fixed everything, but it certainly went a long, long ways, and gay rights in general are much better off. People are a lot less likely to casually, intentionally bring up discriminatory things when they realize that most people are NOT on their side. Building a big group of reasonably happy, agreeable sorts is hard to deal with in many ways.

Edit: Tyndmyr, that's exactly why I didn't want to bring ANY of those things up, because if people here aren't capable of dispassionately talking about political systems without bringing in a load of emotional baggage, they're sure not capable of talking about THAT subject without it turning into a shitfest.


I certainly don't have a problem discussing them mostly dispassionately...but yeah, sometimes the topic does stir up emotions. A lot of the political ones do. The religious ones don't really seem to, but I suspect that's a selection bias, with a lot of folks here who tend towards non-religious.

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Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:47 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Altereggo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You... don't really get how analogies are supposed to work, do you?

Picking something no one today cares about is not useful to anyone, because the whole point of an analogy in the first place was to liken the current situation to another situation about which participants have some intuitions and opinions. Arguing by analogy to something irrelevant to everyone in the discussion is... I don't even know what it is, but it certainly isn't useful to anyone.


I can usually make a decent effort to put myself in someone else's shoes--imagining their concerns as my own, but staying dispassionate enough to think rationally. Can you think of something you could do that with? I'm going for empathy without bile here--would you rather we use abortion or guns?
As Belial points out, anything where two mostly equal sides hold opposing views fails as an analogy to the present situation, where one side is in favor of actively taking rights from the other.


I assure you, the pro-gun side views the anti-gun side as taking rights from us. You may have heard them reference the 2nd amendment once or even twice. Right to keep an bear arms and all that.


And the anti-gun side has a justifiable reason to view them as endangering them. Thus, legitimately two-sided issue.
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