California breastfeeding picture controversy

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby PictureSarah » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:36 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:
PictureSarah wrote:If people don't want to hear a baby cry, then they should want to see a baby breastfeeding.


I don't know if the other opinion would say that. Why not formula feed or no baby at all?


The superiority of breastmilk to formula is very well researched and documented. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/

And I'm not sure what you mean by no baby at all...why wouldn't one just leave a baby at home all the time, or why wouldn't one just refrain from procreating ever?
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:00 pm UTC

PictureSarah wrote:
mobiusstripsearch wrote:
PictureSarah wrote:If people don't want to hear a baby cry, then they should want to see a baby breastfeeding.


I don't know if the other opinion would say that. Why not formula feed or no baby at all?


The superiority of breastmilk to formula is very well researched and documented. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/

And I'm not sure what you mean by no baby at all...why wouldn't one just leave a baby at home all the time, or why wouldn't one just refrain from procreating ever?


Don't these people try, like, not having babies?

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby PictureSarah » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:11 pm UTC

Heh. Yeah, I tried not having babies for 8 years. Then I tried having a baby. It's ok, I guess. :)

Seriously, my answer to those people is that my reproductive choices are none of their fucking business.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby AndyG314 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:24 pm UTC

What should be controversial here is:

Friend posts picture of breastfeeding mother. Just because she feeds her kid at graduation doesn't mean she want's the whole internet to know about it and get caught up in a stupid internet "scandal". (Mom may have given permission, but she might not have we don't know.)

Rude mom brings baby with her to graduation. Seriously, if the baby had to come why wasn't he in the audience with dad? This is probably part of why people assume she was a single mom. Your kids aren't invited everywhere you are. If you can't or won't leave the them with somebody else, you can't go. If the kid had been in the audience then that would have been one thing (You could make a quick and discrete exit if the need arose) but in with the graduates is really inappropriate.

Given the circumstances she probably did the only thing available to her.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

The mother in the photograph is the one who posted her photo to a Facebook group, as she was lending her support to the 'black women breastfeed' group.
AndyG314 wrote:Rude mom brings baby with her to graduation. Seriously, if the baby had to come why wasn't he in the audience with dad? This is probably part of why people assume she was a single mom. Your kids aren't invited everywhere you are. If you can't or won't leave the them with somebody else, you can't go. If the kid had been in the audience then that would have been one thing (You could make a quick and discrete exit if the need arose) but in with the graduates is really inappropriate.
I don't think it's rude to bring your kid to a graduation, and we have no idea what her relationship is like. All we have is a photo of her holding her baby at her graduation. Not not while on stage, not while diploma's are being conferred, whatever. I think it's telling that you're leaping to conclusions.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:43 pm UTC

i don't think it's rude to bring your kid to your graduation. you are graduating, your family should be allowed to be there with you.

BUT it's irrelevant anyway, articles i am reading say that after diplomas were given, she was introducing her classmates to her daughter and the kid got hungry. unless you're also going to say the kids should be nowhere in the vicinity of the graduation at all and the mother shouldn't be allowed to show her friends her baby.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Cleverbeans » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:55 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i don't think it's rude to bring your kid to your graduation. you are graduating, your family should be allowed to be there with you.


I've never actually been to a graduation without babies now that I think about it. I just assumed this was standard practice.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby AndyG314 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The mother in the photograph is the one who posted her photo to a Facebook group, as she was lending her support to the 'black women breastfeed' group.
AndyG314 wrote:Rude mom brings baby with her to graduation. Seriously, if the baby had to come why wasn't he in the audience with dad? This is probably part of why people assume she was a single mom. Your kids aren't invited everywhere you are. If you can't or won't leave the them with somebody else, you can't go. If the kid had been in the audience then that would have been one thing (You could make a quick and discrete exit if the need arose) but in with the graduates is really inappropriate.
I don't think it's rude to bring your kid to a graduation, and we have no idea what her relationship is like. All we have is a photo of her holding her baby at her graduation. Not not while on stage, not while diploma's are being conferred, whatever. I think it's telling that you're leaping to conclusions.


For some reason I got the impression from the discussion that it was her friend who posted the pic.

The only thing I'm assuming it that her graduation follows the standard format of graduations, that is that the graduates walk in, sit together and then go up from their seats to the stage to receive their diplomas and finally walk out together. Perhaps this graduation follows a different format.

It was stated earlier in the thread that she was not a single mother, I took that to mean that she and the father were together still, and had romantic relationship. I suppose that it could have meant that she had a partner who wasn't dad, but that really doesn't change much on a practical level.

Regardless there are no etiquette police or rudeness jail. I think it's rude to bring your brats to formal adult events, perhaps you don't. Your free do do whatever you choose, and I'm free not to invite you to my graduation.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:38 pm UTC

AndyG314 wrote:and I'm free not to invite you to my graduation.
Except this was HER graduation, and as you point out, the etiquette/politeness police haven't said anything in HER universities bylaws about the presence of children and/or their need to be fed.

Again, think about the context here; she didn't take the kid up with her with her tit exposed to accept her diploma. This was AFTER the ceremony, and you're still getting upset about her doing so.

Hypothetical: Famous scientist is invited to give a lecture. She does, and her partner brings her child. After the lecture, she walks out to the lobby and starts breastfeeding her child. Someone walks up to her and they start chatting science, or whatever. Photo gets taken, and THE SCIENTIST posts it to a friend group. Would you say she has acted inappropriately, because bebbies got no place in science?
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:56 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:In the Netherlands public urination is legal outside city limits.

Is that not the case in other countries? If you're hitchhiking in the USA, a thousand miles from any form of civilization, and you really need to pee, are you not allowed to do so?
I think the correct way to look at this is that you are required to be discrete. So think of it as being illegal to aim at passing cars rather than being illegal to step behind a tree. Public versus private.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:01 pm UTC

The underlying reason it's considered inappropriate is because women should stay at home and take care of the house and watch the kids. The fact that they have the gall to be out getting diplomas and doing jobs and stuff is horribly offensive to certain males and any attempt at being both a mother and a working professional will be shouted down with much fervor.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby AndyG314 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:13 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
AndyG314 wrote:and I'm free not to invite you to my graduation.
Except this was HER graduation, and as you point out, the etiquette/politeness police haven't said anything in HER universities bylaws about the presence of children and/or their need to be fed.

Again, think about the context here; she didn't take the kid up with her with her tit exposed to accept her diploma. This was AFTER the ceremony, and you're still getting upset about her doing so.

Hypothetical: Famous scientist is invited to give a lecture. She does, and her partner brings her child. After the lecture, she walks out to the lobby and starts breastfeeding her child. Someone walks up to her and they start chatting science, or whatever. Photo gets taken, and THE SCIENTIST posts it to a friend group. Would you say she has acted inappropriately, because bebbies got no place in science?


First of all I didn't have a problem with her breast feeding the baby, in fact I said:
andyg314 wrote:Given the circumstances she probably did the only thing available to her.

My problem was that she shouldn't have brought her baby in the middle of the graduating class. It would have been fine if somebody else was watching the child during the ceremony, but her place was with her graduating class, if she couldn't have given the even her undivided attention she shouldn't have gone. It wasn't just her graduation, it was her classmates as well.

You said it was after the ceremony, the artical says:
A friend had taken the photograph of Thurman, who was donning a cap and gown, as she breastfed her daughter, Aaliyah, who had become hungry during her May 22 graduation ceremony at Cal State Long Beach.


You hypothetical doesn't apply, as this was in the middle of the ceremony. It would be as if the scientist brought her baby to the lecture and have it sitting on her lap. Which yest I say is rude, the people attending the lecture have the expectation of her undivided attention.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:20 pm UTC

AndyG314 wrote:You hypothetical doesn't apply, as this was in the middle of the ceremony. It would be as if the scientist brought her baby to the lecture and have it sitting on her lap. Which yest I say is rude, the people attending the lecture have the expectation of her undivided attention.
Yes, how awful that would be.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby AndyG314 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:24 pm UTC

You might not like it so much if she was sitting next to you at work.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:25 pm UTC

Nor would I like it on a plane. That doesn't mean we should ban babies.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:30 pm UTC

AndyG314 wrote:You might not like it so much if she was sitting next to you at work.
If the baby remained quiet, I really wouldn't give a fuck where she was sitting next to me with it.

Also, a graduation is not the same thing. People sitting in the audience can bring their kids, so obviously there's already the chance of having crying babies around.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:43 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
AndyG314 wrote:You hypothetical doesn't apply, as this was in the middle of the ceremony. It would be as if the scientist brought her baby to the lecture and have it sitting on her lap. Which yest I say is rude, the people attending the lecture have the expectation of her undivided attention.
Yes, how awful that would be.
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For what it's worth, in all the pictures you posted where she's breastfeeding, she's also covered.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

Which pictures do you think she's breastfeeding in?

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:53 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:For what it's worth, in all the pictures you posted where she's breastfeeding, she's also covered.
"What it's worth" is exactly zero in this case because
1) there are no pictures I posted where she's breastfeeding and
2) AndyG314 was complaining about the baby being there at all, not about it eating.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:59 pm UTC

AndyG314 wrote:Regardless there are no etiquette police or rudeness jail. I think it's rude to bring your brats to formal adult events, perhaps you don't. Your free do do whatever you choose, and I'm free not to invite you to my graduation.


Izawwlgood wrote:Except this was HER graduation, and as you point out, the etiquette/politeness police haven't said anything in HER universities bylaws about the presence of children and/or their need to be fed.


Different things. "there isn't a bylaw about it" doesn't mean you're not being rude. Social standards often differ from explicit rules and laws.

If she posted the picture itself to an advocacy group, there is no significant privacy concern. Her call to get involved. Bringing young children to a formal event is usually looked down upon, and many graduations are at least somewhat formal. I cannot speak for this particular event, but it's a common assumption. Not every place is socially acceptable for young children, even if we entirely ignore the breastfeeding issue.

There's a sliding scale of inappropriateness, though. Taking your kid to a graduation isn't like taking 'im to a bar. This ain't a binary thing where 100% right or wrong.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:03 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Which pictures do you think she's breastfeeding in?


Whoops, my mistake. 1) and 2) looked like she was breastfeeding. Though unless that cover is normal for fashion, it does look like a cover for when the baby is breastfeeding.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:04 pm UTC

It's a sling.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:14 pm UTC

leady wrote:also peeing in Public in Europe (not the UK naturally) isn't frowned on, just like lady lumps - they have urinals in public in Amsterdam


However, peeing in public without using those urinals (inside city limits as Diadem already pointed out) is in fact illegal in the Netherlands. It's called 'wildplassen' and is its own misdemeanor*, punishable by a fine.

*That is to say, the specific offence you are being fined for is urinating in an illegal manner, rather than public indecency which happens to involve urination.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby jseah » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:34 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:The whole concept of "I don't want to see boobs, because boos are supposed be sexy, and if I see them I have sexy thoughts and it's all your fault!" is the same bullshit that leads to the burka. Men cannot be expected to deal with sexy thoughts, so women have to be "modest". Fuck that.

Does this imply that if a woman (or women) decide to go around topless, it isn't going to be illegal to watch/ogle/follow them from the next building with a binoculars? Or well, have "sexy thoughts" about them?

Because you know, that's the other side of the coin.

Izawwlgood wrote:Would you say she has acted inappropriately, because bebbies got no place in science?

Hey! No eating/drinking in the lab!

But that's more a safety issue. (read: don't contaminate my experiment! Not the cells! Noooo)
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:40 am UTC

jseah wrote:Does this imply that if a woman (or women) decide to go around topless, it isn't going to be illegal to watch/ogle/follow them from the next building with a binoculars? Or well, have "sexy thoughts" about them?

Because you know, that's the other side of the coin.
Is it illegal to watch someone with binoculars and have sexy thoughts about them when they're fully clothed? Creepy, shitty behavior, sure, but not illegal.

I don't imagine any of that would change if women are topless.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:46 am UTC

jseah wrote:Hey! No eating/drinking in the lab!
Heh, not a scientist then?
jseah wrote:Or well, have "sexy thoughts" about them?
I'm curious how you got to thought crime from any of this.
Tyndmyr wrote:There's a sliding scale of inappropriateness, though. Taking your kid to a graduation isn't like taking 'im to a bar. This ain't a binary thing where 100% right or wrong.
Granted, but, notice that that scale also considers the kids well being over an adults. I think it's inappropriate to take a kid to a bar/concert because I'm concerned for the kid, not the buzz someone having fun.

Kids can't be taken to the symphony/movie, because the will probably disturb other people's ability to listen uninterrupted. No one at this graduation was impaired from being able to enjoy the graduation because this woman breast fed there.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby jseah » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:57 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
jseah wrote:Hey! No eating/drinking in the lab!
Heh, not a scientist then?

It was mostly a joke. =P I got caught out drinking tea in the lab too.

Izawwlgood wrote:
jseah wrote:Or well, have "sexy thoughts" about them?
I'm curious how you got to thought crime from any of this.

Yeah I know, everything I write seems to go straight to thought crime.

More seriously, I don't actually see anything wrong with having "sexy thoughts"... given that we have them all the time anyway. *rolls eyes*
But some people seem to see something wrong with that.

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote:Because you know, that's the other side of the coin.
Is it illegal to watch someone with binoculars and have sexy thoughts about them when they're fully clothed? Creepy, shitty behavior, sure, but not illegal.

One wonders then that other people might consider going topless in certain locations (eg. workplace) might be inappropriate behaviour too.
Or a concert hall might have "no toddlers" like the way cinemas have "phones to silent mode" as a matter of politeness.

EDIT: it might be useful to note that this is mostly a matter of public opinion. In the way that people can choose to be offended at anything they want, but whether other people's behaviour is influenced depends on how many people are offended and whether the people performing said behaviour feel the offense is justified.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:06 am UTC

Workplaces generally have dress codes for men and women, so I'm not sure why legal changes will lead to women going topless to the office any more than men typically do so today.

And if you work somewhere that men can already be topless, then I absolutely think women should be able to do the same.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby jseah » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:40 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Workplaces generally have dress codes for men and women, so I'm not sure why legal changes will lead to women going topless to the office any more than men typically do so today.

And if you work somewhere that men can already be topless, then I absolutely think women should be able to do the same.

Workplace dress codes are there because of prevailing public opinion (or dare I say, to create a formal productive atmosphere, not one that is sexually charged).

I don't think it is *illegal* for a woman to go topless in a workplace if it wasn't illegal to do so in public. That doesn't mean the company is overstepping its legal bounds by firing her (perhaps even for breach of contract).
We could always boycott them, of course. =D

But no, that was an example to illustrate that people have opinions about appropriate dress codes (not just clothing but even shoes and handphones) which may be justified and valid.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:51 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote:Does this imply that if a woman (or women) decide to go around topless, it isn't going to be illegal to watch/ogle/follow them from the next building with a binoculars? Or well, have "sexy thoughts" about them?

Because you know, that's the other side of the coin.
Is it illegal to watch someone with binoculars and have sexy thoughts about them when they're fully clothed? Creepy, shitty behavior, sure, but not illegal.

I don't imagine any of that would change if women are topless.


I actually do think that might cross boundaries into stalking, etc, and may be illegal, depending on jurisdiction and degree of watching.

gmalivuk wrote:Workplaces generally have dress codes for men and women, so I'm not sure why legal changes will lead to women going topless to the office any more than men typically do so today.

And if you work somewhere that men can already be topless, then I absolutely think women should be able to do the same.


Seems fair. Even if it is somewhat more acceptable for men to be topless culturally, work definitely doesn't seem like the place for it for either.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

Yeah, I initially described it as stalking and harassment, which are both illegal already, but then noticed he was talking about doing so with binoculars, which I suspect is not illegal anywhere on its own, but might become so in combination with other stalking or harassing behaviors.

EIther way, my point was that everything about it, whether legal, ethical, or societal, would remain the same whether or not a woman was wearing a shirt.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:13 pm UTC

Seems fair. In practice, I recognize that society may treat women not wearing a shirt differently than a man wearing a shirt, but doing this certainly isn't the business of the law, etc, and it's not easy to justify ethically.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:10 pm UTC

I don't want men to stop having sexy thoughts. I just don't like the fact that people have sexy thoughts often leads to an expectation that women modify their dress and behavior so that men won't assault them, or be distracted from their lives by being forced to have sexy thoughts because a recognizably female body just entered their field of view.
Perhaps if breasts were on view more often, men wouldn't find it necessary to watch them through binoculars. There are places where topless women excite little to no comment at all. And not all of them are found in National Geographic.
If men walked around with their penii hanging out, it wouldn't be okay for women to randomly grope them.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:22 pm UTC

And if someone can't personally imagine not being turned on by every naked breast, how about things that are sexualized in other cultures but not ours? Are you distracted every time you see a woman's full face? How about uncovered hair? If you can see bits of ankle below a long skirt does it become impossible to focus on what you're supposed to be doing?
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:12 pm UTC

MmmMM, dem neck or lip stretches are FINE. Forget boobies, gimme a lady with a 2 foot long neck or lip diameter.

What's that, attraction and social mores are fluid and not one size fits all?
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:34 pm UTC

If many different social mores are ok, why are we being so critical of the one our society uses?
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:36 pm UTC

Beauty may be fluid, but it is NOT irrational. The "goal" is to attach your DNA to someone else's with the greatest likelihood of it continuing to spread. The best chance of that is with those of good health/virility and high social standing. Thus, our definition of beauty is a combination of social status and health; anything that indicates health and/or high social status is beautiful. Anything indicating poor health or low social status is ugly.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:41 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:If many different social mores are ok, why are we being so critical of the one our society uses?
We're being critical of it here, because of the behavior it's causing. My point wasn't that other social mores are better, but that social mores are different everywhere, and hinging your sense of propriety on what you've been raised around is a poor way to operate when it comes to your expectations of OTHER people.

Sure, fine, you find breastfeeding in public to be embarrassing or inappropriate, fine, don't do it! But don't tell others to knock it off. That's Puritan level bullshit.
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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Crissa » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:53 am UTC

It's also illegal to harass or interrupt a woman breastfeeding in California.

-Crissa

Aside: I have an anecdote about a mother who sat down in the toy store I was working and began breastfeeding. When the assistant manager saw her blocking an aisle, he told her we weren't allowed to have people sit there, and would she be more comfortable at our break area or a table or bench? She threw a fit until the owner came and cajoled her into the office. It was very awkward, we weren't allowed to let anyone sit on the floor for fire reasons, so literally she wasn't allowed to be where she was. The breastfeeding had nothing to do with why we asked her to move!

In our county, many protests involve half-nude men and women, mostly because it makes corporate held businesses so nervous. They recently changed the law so any business could have a dress code, but they still can't harass women for being topless outside of their businesses.

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Re: California breastfeeding picture controversy

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:09 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:If many different social mores are ok, why are we being so critical of the one our society uses?


Our mores are decent. I got nothing against mores until you start trying to force other people to follow them.

If you see something and think it is inappropriate, that is fine. Right, wrong, whatever. When you start trying to make them do what you want them to do, well...now your justification for why you have to do that matters. If you don't have a pretty good justification(like, this keeps people safe from actual, demonstratable harm), you probably shouldn't be doing that.


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