[WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female thor

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:06 am UTC

We can only hope the new Thorette battles the new greco-roman Wonder Woman in a sweaty, nasty, clothes-ripping cat fight.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KrytenKoro » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Besides, I'm still technically correct, which is why I didn't edit it out. Spiderman, the Fantastic 4, and everyone else aren't rushing in to save Optimus Prime. The Decepticons have no relationship to the Skrulls or any of the other iconic characters in the Marvel Universe (ie: Earth 616). At least Ultimate universe has similar themes and characters.

Spiderman has shown up in Transformers comics multiple times.

As have the rest of the Avengers.

Put in the bare minimum of research before pulling claims out of your arse.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:32 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Can we discuss something that is similar to this subject? Transformers ain't even in the Marvel Universe.

....Dude. Transformers fiction originated as a Marvel comic, has had a Marvel series running since the 80s, and the Marvel series is the source for the primary characterizations of each character throughout the franchise. I can barely fathom the failure of research that lead you to say such a perversely untrue thing.

Lay off, this is a casual topic. I'm not going to put the same level of research discussing comic books as I do in other topics.
No one's asking for extensively researched and cited essays with every post.

Just, y'know, don't state something that is so clearly false that googling "transformers marvel" immediately shows that it's a marvel comic.

And then, if you do post something that obviously wrong, just admit that you made a mistake and move on. Don't dig yourself deeper by first claiming it's a casual topic (casual doesn't mean it's okay to just blatantly make shit up) and then following that up with more completely incorrect statements.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:06 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Just, y'know, don't state something that is so clearly false that googling "transformers marvel" immediately shows that it's a marvel comic.


Cripes. Why don't you try googling "Transformers Marvel Universe" and tell me what happens?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Transformers+Marvel+Universe

If you don't want go go through the annoying lmgtfy animation... here's the first link listed: http://marvel.com/universe/Transformers

Anyway, the confusion is that you don't know what Earth-616 is, and you don't seem to understand the term "Marvel Universe". For example "Peter Parker is Spiderman in the Marvel Universe. Miles Milores is Spiderman in the Ultimate Marvel Universe". Get it? Marvel Universe (ie: Earth616) is one universe, while Ultimate Marvel (ie: Earth-1610) is another. Similarly, "Transformers do not exist in the Marvel Universe". In case you're curious, Transformers are part of Earth-91274 or Earth-120185. If any "Spiderman" visits Transformers, it isn't Earth-616 Spiderman, but the one in Earth-120185. Comic Book arguments about canon inevitably drifts towards the explanations of the universes, and the "Marvel Universe" in nerd-rage debates very often only means Earth-616. Even if they're all stories made by Marvel, only Earth-616 stories are said to take place in the "Marvel Universe". (Likewise, "Ultimate Marvel Universe" refers to Earth-1610, "Marvel Zombie Universe" refers to Earth-2149).

Do you get the joke now? I'm "technically correct", ha ha. It was supposed to be a joke to lighten the mood, but it seems to have gone stale somehow. I'll apologize for that too, I guess I'm not able to make jokes as obvious as I thought I could. I admit that I was pissed at Koro's comment however, so I perhaps wrote the post too caustically for such a convoluted joke to fly.

Let me play it straight: I fully admit I was wrong in spirit, and that's the more important bit. No, I never realized that Transformers were made by Marvel for some reason... which is the proper meaning of the phrase "Marvel Universe" to most people. But thats why its a joke, "Marvel Universe" means something different to comic book readers. And for whatever reason, when I meant to say "Transformers aren't made by Marvel", I actually stated the technically correct phrase "Transformers aren't in the Marvel Universe" (though I was ignorant to the fact at the time, and likewise I was also ignorant to crossover series between the universes).

Nonetheless, Transformers never appeared in the Marvel Universe 616, so its a funny technicality that has no bearing on the argument. IE: A joke.

In either case, KrytenKoro has won the argument already, so please lay off. There honestly is no ground for my argument to stand on, and any dragging would be technical talk that only served to move the goalposts and distract from my mistake. I realize it doesn't look like it, but the post in question was my resignation from the argument with a dumb technicality brought up as a cheap (but funny??) potshot. Hopefully someone out there appreciates the joke :-(

But for those who don't: thank you for informing me about Transformers being made by Marvel, I never knew that before.

Moving back to the topic: What do you think about Ultimate Spiderman being rewritten to be a Black Hispanic?

Paul in Saudi wrote:We can only hope the new Thorette battles the new greco-roman Wonder Woman in a sweaty, nasty, clothes-ripping cat fight.


You know... Wonder Woman was supposed to have come from Greece. The fact that she wore Red / White / Blue with Stars and is basically a Cowgirl with a Lasso never really makes sense.

I like the Greco-Roman Wonder Woman idea. Granted... she looks a lot like Xena and probably will go in that direction... but hey, it actually sorta matches her backstory more. After all, why wouldn't a Greek Amazon wear something vaguely Greco-Roman?
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:29 pm UTC

Given the history of comics, it's often safer to just assume any given crossover between major entities has happened, unless you've heavily researched it. Because seriously, crossovers happen between the most ludicrous of things...

But pedantry about which universe is a crossover...ugh. Cmon...I dare say that degree of rewriting of the stories over in different ways, and the constant "this is canon, no this is" bs is part of why comics are seen as...inferior, sometimes. See also, comic book guy from the Simpsons. We could probably do with less of that.

I do not give two craps over if Spiderman is hispanic, personally. It's not really important for him either way. I do hope this doesn't mean some recycled origin story BS(which has already happened far too much in canon, with changing of powers to match the movies, and then back....) and yknow, something new, not just a desperate attempt to cash in on the "novelty" of a minority superhero.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:01 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Given the history of comics, it's often safer to just assume any given crossover between major entities has happened, unless you've heavily researched it. Because seriously, crossovers happen between the most ludicrous of things...


Like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles/Power Rangers crossover!

Spoiler:
Image

I know, not comics, but ludicrous

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:*Some clarifiers for those unaware of transformers:
--The Megatron from the 80s cartoon has been depicted able to turn into a B-52-based bomber, a tank, a shoe, a Playstation One console, and a gun. Not just a Walther P38. His "plans that are totally less ridiculous than the movies" usually involved building giant purple griffons for no reason or starting nightclubs in order to hypnotize teens, to make them run gas stations catering to decepticons.
--The Optimus from the 80s cartoon has turned into things much more different from a cab-over truck than a semi with flames -- an iPod deck, a pepsi delivery truck (and that one was old), a movie style truck that was, like, in the original carton ffs, fire engines, and shoe.
--Casey Kasem quit the original show because of how racist it got. Having two wannabe "gangstas" is, if anything, progressive compared to the original.
--Rhinox seriously defeated the Predacons in one episode using his powerful beangas.
--Kiss Players exists, and is part of the series including the cartoon from the 80s. Lingering shots on teen butts in a movie that is (if not in merchandise) very clearly not aimed at young children is objectification, yes, and a separate problem, but still an improvement on what the original fiction got up to (for example, the original female transformer was created to shut feminists up. Not meta-wise -- literally, feminists were pestering Optimus, so he had the Autobots build Arcee in order to make those "irrational feminists" shut up.)

Mind you that when I ask this, I am not suggesting that Transformers were exactly high art at any point in their existance, but are you entirely certain you're talking solely about the 80s cartoons here? PS1s and iPods seem awfully modern for that timeframe. Rhinox sounds awfully Beast Wars-ish as well. (Which was well after my time, so I'm only vaguely aware that it's a thing. So I could easily be wrong there.)

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

If they thought they could sell you merchandise they would crossover anything or anyone.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

When it comes to crossovers it's hard to top this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_a ... d_Predator

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Thesh » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:00 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:When it comes to crossovers it's hard to top this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_a ... d_Predator


Superman and Batman versus Aliens and Predator


Evidently Aliens are not present in the story.


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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:Mind you that when I ask this, I am not suggesting that Transformers were exactly high art at any point in their existance, but are you entirely certain you're talking solely about the 80s cartoons here? PS1s and iPods seem awfully modern for that timeframe. Rhinox sounds awfully Beast Wars-ish as well. (Which was well after my time, so I'm only vaguely aware that it's a thing. So I could easily be wrong there.)

For some of the alternate modes (shoe, PS1, iPOD), yeah, those are more recent, but it's the same version of the character as the original -- it's not a separate character like the movie Optimus is. I'm trying to illustrate that it's silly for the kind of "it's not a true Optimus, it's the wrong kind of semi", when the original Optimus has had a myriad of different forms. For stuff in the 80s and 90s, there was still stuff like "Pepsi Convoy", "Star Convoy", "Hero Optimus Prime", or "Laser Optimus Prime" -- the latter 3 all being the non-cab-over type that people were complaining about movie version being.

Rhinox is Beast Wars, yes, but if anything, Beast Wars was one of the best written series in the franchise, and was a massive part of the childhood of most Transformers fans. And it still included fart jokes.

My main point is, yeah, the Transformers movies have problems, but they ain't anything new under the sun, and the idea that they are a slight to the Reagan-era childhood including the original series is both seriously rose-tinted, and ignoring the fact that the franchise has been continuing healthily until the modern day, with much larger deviations than "Optimus has flames and isn't a cab-over" that seem to break some people's minds. The "deviations from the norm" should be assessed on their own merit, because 9/10 in long-running franchises like this or Thor or Spiderman, they're not even deviations, or are much smaller and much less odious than prior deviations.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER is relevant
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:Mind you that when I ask this, I am not suggesting that Transformers were exactly high art at any point in their existance, but are you entirely certain you're talking solely about the 80s cartoons here? PS1s and iPods seem awfully modern for that timeframe. Rhinox sounds awfully Beast Wars-ish as well. (Which was well after my time, so I'm only vaguely aware that it's a thing. So I could easily be wrong there.)

For some of the alternate modes (shoe, PS1, iPOD), yeah, those are more recent, but it's the same version of the character as the original -- it's not a separate character like the movie Optimus is. I'm trying to illustrate that it's silly for the kind of "it's not a true Optimus, it's the wrong kind of semi", when the original Optimus has had a myriad of different forms. For stuff in the 80s and 90s, there was still stuff like "Pepsi Convoy", "Star Convoy", "Hero Optimus Prime", or "Laser Optimus Prime" -- the latter 3 all being the non-cab-over type that people were complaining about movie version being.

Yeah, that's cool. I understood your overall point and don't really have a problem with it. I was just a bit confused with some of the timing.

Rhinox is Beast Wars, yes, but if anything, Beast Wars was one of the best written series in the franchise, and was a massive part of the childhood of most Transformers fans. And it still included fart jokes.

I think you mean that it was a massive part of the childhood of most of the Transformers fans of your generation. We old fogeys are a thing too. *shakes his original Optimus Prime toy and mutters something about "darned kids"*

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:00 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:When it comes to crossovers it's hard to top this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_a ... d_Predator
I actually really enjoyed the Batman vs Predator comic. It had some really spot on characterization. You really FELT the predators struggle. Not to kill Batman, nono, that was pretty easy, but the social pressures to trophy hunt. Such a confining society.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Sprocket » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:41 pm UTC

Fancy wrote:So they will be making a black captain america, completely trashing the original story.

And a female thor. Thor is a Scandinavian MALE name. This is gonna be great.

Anyone want to chip in and start a discussion or just let this die?

Yeah, you are silly. A black female Captain America would be kind of The Greatest thing to ever happen.
I see no reason that story can't run in parallel to the one we've already got going on. Comics do stuff like that all the time.
Female Thor they also made total sense of.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Sockmonkey » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:09 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:You know... Wonder Woman was supposed to have come from Greece. The fact that she wore Red / White / Blue with Stars and is basically a Cowgirl with a Lasso never really makes sense.

I like the Greco-Roman Wonder Woman idea. Granted... she looks a lot like Xena and probably will go in that direction... but hey, it actually sorta matches her backstory more. After all, why wouldn't a Greek Amazon wear something vaguely Greco-Roman?
Agreed. there's a lot of darn good fanart of her in such an outfit which makes it all the more maddening that professional comic book producers can't do as well as something some random dude knocked off in his sketchbook on a whim.
KrytenKoro wrote:My main point is, yeah, the Transformers movies have problems, but they ain't anything new under the sun, and the idea that they are a slight to the Reagan-era childhood including the original series is both seriously rose-tinted, and ignoring the fact that the franchise has been continuing healthily until the modern day, with much larger deviations than "Optimus has flames and isn't a cab-over" that seem to break some people's minds. The "deviations from the norm" should be assessed on their own merit, because 9/10 in long-running franchises like this or Thor or Spiderman, they're not even deviations, or are much smaller and much less odious than prior deviations.
The non-cab-over thing bugged me I admit, but I acknowledge that that's just my personal preference that has no relevance outside my own head. The flames though, seem tacky on a leader of his supposed stature. Like George Washington wearing gold chains and velour leisure suit.

Anyhow, yes the 80s cartoons could get doofy as at times and you know what? The doofyness bugged me then too. I let it slide then because hey, transformers are cool, but it still hurt my enjoyment of the series.
What gets me isn't that the newer stories and the movie weren't totally adult, it's that the industry hasn't seemed to have learned anything since then.
Specifically, that you can have something be explody and awesome that appeals to kids without it being doofy.

My favorite series is Transformers Prime because while there was a good bit of silly in it, the universe didn't seem to run purely on Bugs Bunny logic.

I also hate the truly stupid amount of over-greebling of the movie designs. It's like they didn't take into account that there would be a lot of action scenes and that such a large amount of detailing made them look like giant metal scribbles when they fought.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Mutex wrote:When it comes to crossovers it's hard to top this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_a ... d_Predator
I actually really enjoyed the Batman vs Predator comic. It had some really spot on characterization. You really FELT the predators struggle. Not to kill Batman, nono, that was pretty easy, but the social pressures to trophy hunt. Such a confining society.
Yep. Also Alfred had some badass moments too. All hail the iron butler.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:00 pm UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:Yep. Also Alfred had some badass moments too. All hail the iron butler.
EEEEEEEE you are the first person who has brought that up. I had a fan theory for ages that Alfred was far more badass than we gave him credit for.

That scene with the musket? Iron Butler!
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:37 pm UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:Anyhow, yes the 80s cartoons could get doofy as at times and you know what? The doofyness bugged me then too. I let it slide then because hey, transformers are cool, but it still hurt my enjoyment of the series.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the complaint that the movies (or any other type of modern reimagining of an 80s kids series) is "ruining our childhood". I never claimed that Transformers was a masterpiece, only that people complaining that claims of "this is an offense to my childhood!" are usually full of rose-tinted BS, as with the Captain America/Thor complaint that started this thread.

My favorite series is Transformers Prime because while there was a good bit of silly in it, the universe didn't seem to run purely on Bugs Bunny logic.

No, it just ran on nothing happening for whole seasons while people just played the same fetch quest over and over.

I also hate the truly stupid amount of over-greebling of the movie designs. It's like they didn't take into account that there would be a lot of action scenes and that such a large amount of detailing made them look like giant metal scribbles when they fought.

I'm sorry you had that problem, but in fairness it didn't look like that to everyone. Personally, I prefer the more mechanized designs, because they look more like something that actually would evolve on an alien planet, rather than being obviously designed to turn into Earth vehicles.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:57 pm UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Vahir » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:22 pm UTC

And nobody was surprised.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:34 pm UTC

Well, misogynists like the one who started this thread might be.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Vahir » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:38 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Well, misogynists like the one who started this thread might be.


It's not even about being supportive of the idea of a female Thor, it's about the publicity generated by it. I hadn't even heard of the Thor comics before this thread. Controversy (shouldn't be controversial, but you know) is great for business.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tirian » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:25 am UTC

http://fusion.net/story/105401/new-femi ... -old-thor/

That's the version of the article that has the actual sales figures for the first five issues of this reboot compared to the first five issues of the previous reboot two years ago. While it's not enough information to let us know if the higher figures are because of a radical new twist or a new audience source or just good writing and art, it does look like the same exponential decay that most renumbered storylines get. Time will give us a better idea of where the floor is on the new series, but my nickle still says that the comic book Thor will look like Chris Hemsworth again before Thor 3 is released in theaters.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Horselover Frost » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:46 am UTC

On a similar controversy, I would love a movie featuring a black James Bond, coupled with the reveal that the name is a code name passed down from agent to agent (with the current Bond being the latest in a long line of super agents). And a general return to over-the-top Bond adventures. QoS and Skyfall were just duuuuull.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:06 pm UTC

Horselover Frost wrote:On a similar controversy, I would love a movie featuring a black James Bond, coupled with the reveal that the name is a code name passed down from agent to agent (with the current Bond being the latest in a long line of super agents). And a general return to over-the-top Bond adventures. QoS and Skyfall were just duuuuull.


Yes. Also, first movie by a new Bond has a good track record, historically. Less just coasting, resting on their laurels. So, such a swap would be glorious.

That said, Kingsman is kind of a similar movie that you should see, from what you say you like.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Diadem » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:20 pm UTC

Horselover Frost wrote:On a similar controversy, I would love a movie featuring a black James Bond, coupled with the reveal that the name is a code name passed down from agent to agent (with the current Bond being the latest in a long line of super agents). And a general return to over-the-top Bond adventures. QoS and Skyfall were just duuuuull.

But James Bond is British. A James Bond of Indian or Pakistani descent would be both more interesting and more realistic (realistic from a purely numbers perspective, those being the major minorities in Britain).
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Carlington » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:34 pm UTC

There are presently (2011 Census) more Black British* people than either Indian or Pakistani people in the UK - only if you take Indian and Pakistani people together, do they make up a greater proportion of the population. (Roughly 4% for Indian plus Pakistani versus roughly 3% for Black British)

*"Black British" seems fairly nebulous to me, as ethnic groupings go. It seems like covers both people of African descent and people of Caribbean/West Indian descent, and I'm not at all certain how those two ethnicities interrelate, if they do at all.

I mean, none of this is to say we shouldn't have a Pakistani or Indian actor portray James Bond, that would also be cool - just to say that the demographic argument against a Black actor portraying James Bond doesn't really hold up, even if this is a form I've never quite seen it take before.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby firechicago » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:36 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:But James Bond is British. A James Bond of Indian or Pakistani descent would be both more interesting and more realistic (realistic from a purely numbers perspective, those being the major minorities in Britain).

First off, you're just plain factually wrong. More Brits self-identify as black than any other non-white ethnic minority. (About half as many identify as black as all Asian ethnicities combined.)

Secondly,the popular conversation around a black James Bond started when someone suggested that Idris Elba would be perfect for the role. So I'm a little confused how a British actor playing a British character can be "less realistic." It seems a very short hop from that to saying that Idris Elba isn't "really British, not really, like these other, more British people over here."

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby natraj » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:39 pm UTC

i don't know why it has to be some kind of competition anyway diadem. it'd be awesome to have a black bond. or an asian bond. they're probably not going to stop cranking out bond movies any time soon so it'd be awesome to just have more diversity in general.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:49 am UTC

Apart from the fact that there are millions of black British people, there's also the fact that why the fuck does it need to be "realistic by the numbers" anyway?

More specifically, why does the race have to be "realistic", when other things (like, I don't know, being an immortal superspy with a license to kill, for example?) are given a free statistical pass?
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Diadem » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:01 am UTC

Carlington wrote:There are presently (2011 Census) more Black British* people than either Indian or Pakistani people in the UK - only if you take Indian and Pakistani people together, do they make up a greater proportion of the population. (Roughly 4% for Indian plus Pakistani versus roughly 3% for Black British)

Oh wow. I wasn't just slightly wrong either. Damn, embarrassing.

natraj wrote:i don't know why it has to be some kind of competition anyway diadem. it'd be awesome to have a black bond. or an asian bond. they're probably not going to stop cranking out bond movies any time soon so it'd be awesome to just have more diversity in general.

I didn't mean it like that. I just wanted to point out that while the movies are American, the character is British, and Britain has other minorities than America. Though it turns out I was in fact mistaken about the relative sizes of British minorities. Whoops.

I mentioned Pakistani specifically because I think that could tie in nicely with a storyline about current hot button issues in Britain (and Europe) like terrorism and Islamophobia. What I want to see is a movie where James bond stops and Islamic terrorist plot, with a James Bond of middle-eastern descent, with this fact never once remarked upon, or pointed, or even acknowledged, in the movie.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Zamfir » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:13 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:More specifically, why does the race have to be "realistic", when other things (like, I don't know, being an immortal superspy with a license to kill, for example?) are given a free statistical pass?


I don't think writers have a free pass there. A plausible James Bond has to meet fictional standards. There are limits on his invulnerability, and especially on his visible awareness of his own invulnerability. James Bond takes some risks that no human being would take, but not every risk at all. And the wirters are also constrained on the other side: they can't make him too vulnerable or too risk-averse either, without losing the character. There is some leeway here, and the writers play with that. But the play works because of the unwritten limits: the audience knows when a James Bond is protrayed as "vulnerable" or "over the top".

The same even goes for the superspying. Skyfall was playing with the limits on domesticity, they can't push that much further or it becomes Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

In that light, I thought the Elba rumours were interesting. People take that as a somewhat playful move, but not really as a hard push on the fictional boundaries of the character. The strong fictional rule is that Bond is very British. Being white or scottish or a nobleman are clearly less strong rules. And by 2015, Idriss Elba is apparently moving into the set of people who appear "very British".

It's still remarkable, in the literal sense that people make remarks about it. But people don't seem to take it as breaking or even bending a fictional rule, like they would for an in-movie American James Bond, or a female James Bond.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Sizik » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:57 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I didn't mean it like that. I just wanted to point out that while the movies are American, the character is British, and Britain has other minorities than America. Though it turns out I was in fact mistaken about the relative sizes of British minorities. Whoops.


Nope, they're quite British.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:25 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:*"Black British" seems fairly nebulous to me, as ethnic groupings go. It seems like covers both people of African descent and people of Caribbean/West Indian descent, and I'm not at all certain how those two ethnicities interrelate, if they do at all.


Here in America, I've heard on the radio stuff like "That person wasn't black. He talked like a Hispanic!!" (Ignoring demographics like... erm... Black Hispanics).

I guess the discussion of "What is 'Black' anyway" is its own subject... one that I'm not qualified for. Generally speaking though... if someone self-identifies with a label, it is subject to the "No True Scotsman fallacy". People generally say you're part of their label if you think, speak, and act like them.

Anyway, just my two cents.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:38 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:*"Black British" seems fairly nebulous to me, as ethnic groupings go. It seems like covers both people of African descent and people of Caribbean/West Indian descent, and I'm not at all certain how those two ethnicities interrelate, if they do at all.
How many black West Indians do you think aren't of African descent?
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:47 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:In that light, I thought the Elba rumours were interesting. People take that as a somewhat playful move, but not really as a hard push on the fictional boundaries of the character. The strong fictional rule is that Bond is very British. Being white or scottish or a nobleman are clearly less strong rules. And by 2015, Idriss Elba is apparently moving into the set of people who appear "very British".

It's still remarkable, in the literal sense that people make remarks about it. But people don't seem to take it as breaking or even bending a fictional rule, like they would for an in-movie American James Bond, or a female James Bond.


I would agree. What is seen to work or not is interesting, but yeah, Bond has to be british, he has to be a spy, those things are utterly core to the identity, and breaking those would be seen as unfaithful to the core idea. Not entirely unlike plenty of criticisms of World War Z's movie adaptation, really. Outside of crazed fanboy level stuff, people are generally pretty accepting of details differing so long as the core feel remains the same.

Nobleman, I think, is fairly unimportant. I mean...yes, he has to have a degree of class, and move in classy circles, because that's essential to the fantasy, but being born into a noble family or whatever just isn't very important to Bond. We don't care about his mother, father, or extended biological family. They're just not essential to the narrative.

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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby Carlington » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:01 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Carlington wrote:*"Black British" seems fairly nebulous to me, as ethnic groupings go. It seems like covers both people of African descent and people of Caribbean/West Indian descent, and I'm not at all certain how those two ethnicities interrelate, if they do at all.
How many black West Indians do you think aren't of African descent?

I honestly had no idea, which is why I said "I'm not at all certain". It probably would have been better to leave that part off my post. On the upside, though, it has led to me learning a little bit about the history of the West Indies and the people that live there. So that's a positive.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby mathmannix » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:17 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Here in America, I've heard on the radio stuff like "That person wasn't black. He talked like a Hispanic!!" (Ignoring demographics like... erm... Black Hispanics).

While there are people in the U.S. who identify themselves as black (or African-American) Hispanics, they are a rather small minority, 0.4% of the population (or 3.2% of African Americans, or 2.5% of Hispanics.) I'm not saying that they should be discounted, but most people probably don't know what they "talk like". I guess it's not a prominent enough group to have stereotypes.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:32 pm UTC

There is also, of course, the fact that the vast majority of AAVE and Chicano English speakers are quite adept at code-switching, so they "sound Black" or "sound Hispanic" when they're using those ethnolects, but not in other contexts.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby EMTP » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:10 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Oh wow. I wasn't just slightly wrong either. Damn, embarrassing.


And that is how you acknowledge a mistake quickly and easily and come out of it looking like a grown-ass adult person whom nobody thinks any less of.
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Re: [WARNING: OPINION WITHIN] Black captain america, female

Postby mathmannix » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:05 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:grown ass-adult person

hehe
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