Gamergate

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PolakoVoador
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Re: Gamergate

Postby PolakoVoador » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:34 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:That's why the Tomb Raider franchise was so short lived and unsuccessful, right?

I'm not sure Tomb Raider's the ideal franchise to use, here. The appeal, particularly for the first six games, was more jiggle-based than aspiring character-based. Lara Croft, for a good ten years, was a one-dimensional character with three-dimensional breasts. Which, I suppose, is better than Nate Drake*, who for the most part was a one-dimensional character with one-dimensional dialogue.

*Or every protagonist from every Crytek game, ever.


Yes, not much depth for most of the franchise, agreed, but that was not my point. As you said, it's not really worse than most male protagonists out there, with the added bonus of being a female protagonist. For the female gamers I know, that was a important, given the predominance of male characters everywhere else.

leady wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:That's why the Tomb Raider franchise was so short lived and unsuccessful, right?


As I said there will be novel exceptions


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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:36 pm UTC

But that's the thing. Tomb Raider and Bayonetta (aka crotch shot simulator) are so overly sexualized that I've never come across a female who has actually played those games.

But you then go to "Hero saves the Damsel in Distress" Legend of Zelda series, and all of a sudden the female population shoots through the roof. I think it is less about "female protagonists" and more about "don't objectify females". I guess it helps that the "Damsel in Distress" Zelda is also a ninja that helps Link out a lot... so she isn't a hopeless damsel. But she's a damsel, in distress... in almost every game Zelda actually is in.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby rat4000 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:47 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:It goes back to the origin of the controversy, which started when the jilted boyfriend of a female game developer posted a long screed accusing his ex-girlfriend of trading sex with games journalists for positive reviews. This sparked some protests, and an organized campaign of harassment against the developer, the journalists and any journalist who dared to defend them.
Gjoni's "Zoe Post" is one long denunciation of Quinn as a girlfriend and person, but accusing her of using sex to get reviews is basically the one thing it doesn't do. ("Kotaku-writing Grayson" is the closest it comes, and I don't think that Gjoni would have done the accusation this subtly -- all the others are pretty obvious.) Heck, Gjoni posted an edit to the post eight days after writing it which says that as far as he's aware any sex they had was after everything Grayson wrote that mentions Quinn.

I think this is important: the jilted boyfriend who wrote a page-long screed against Quinn never explicitly mentioned the ethics of journalism, and when pressed clarified that she definitely did not do the thing she's being accused of. This all came from elsewhere. It's maybe good to remember that.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

the other issue you have with a lift and shift of character gender is that all the standard tropes that work in human psyche start to fail (we can leave the genetics vs culture debate for now)

lara croft rescuing her husband is a painful narrative to both men and women - which i imagine is why as her plotlines have developed, they have moved towards existential threats to the character herself as opposed to the standard ones a forgettable male character gets to achieve cheap emotional responses.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Weeks » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:29 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But you then go to "Hero saves the Damsel in Distress" Legend of Zelda series, and all of a sudden the female population shoots through the roof. I think it is less about "female protagonists" and more about "don't objectify females". I guess it helps that the "Damsel in Distress" Zelda is also a ninja that helps Link out a lot... so she isn't a hopeless damsel. But she's a damsel, in distress... in almost every game Zelda actually is in.
They also have other female characters that are at least somewhat interesting, like Ruto or Malon or Impa or Saria or Midna or...
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Xeio » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:47 pm UTC

Chris Kluwe wrote:Thus, when I see an article titled “Gamers are dead,” referring to the death of the popular trope of a pasty young man in a dimly lit room, it fills me with joy, because it means WE FUCKING WON. So many people are playing games now that they are popular culture.

I like this sentiment.

It's essentially why I never really got why people were angry at "Gamers are dead".

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Re: Gamergate

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:57 pm UTC

Because it means *they* won. You know, the people who bullied and belittled you, who never put in the hours and decades of play that you did - now they get to call themselves gamers? They're fakers. They can't tell an N64 from a Commadore 64. They didn't put in the same time, same effort, same energy, they don't get to use that name.

Or whatever masturbatory fantasy where the "Gamer" is the hero you want that'll justify lashing out in anger at the "Fakers"

Also, leady, really?

lara croft rescuing her husband is a painful narrative to both men and women

I've read the shit out of that and it's only painful when the writing sucks.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Because it means *they* won. You know, the people who bullied and belittled you, who never put in the hours and decades of play that you did - now they get to call themselves gamers? They're fakers. They can't tell an N64 from a Commadore 64. They didn't put in the same time, same effort, same energy, they don't get to use that name.


Its more about the bullying side right now. People on the side of Anti-GamerGate began to encourage bullying of nerds.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:10 pm UTC

I have a hard time not interpreting that as being extremely touch-and-cheek.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Weeks » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:16 pm UTC

No worries, the nerds got their revenge by harassing women and sending death threats!
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:24 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But that's the thing. Tomb Raider and Bayonetta (aka crotch shot simulator) are so overly sexualized that I've never come across a female who has actually played those games.


I certainly have.

But your point is well taken, that something offputting might matter more than things being overtly awesome. There are a LOT of games that are...not particularly great in terms of chars, plot, or writing, yet we've probably played plenty. That's just the status quo. Something has to be pretty overtly terrible to stand out, because video games are often, from a story perspective, pretty GD bad. In my experience, female gamers have a pretty similar spread of interests to male gamers, with maybe an exception for fighting games. I know people who are obsessed with Civilization style games, people who prefer shooters, etc, and it's pretty much the same male or female.

Female gamers tend to publicize their gaming less, though. Even fairly hardcore gamers who game far more than I do are less likely to have game related stuff all over their facebook.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Xeio » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:48 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I have a hard time not interpreting that as being extremely touch-and-cheek.
Sarcasm? On my internets?

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:09 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I have a hard time not interpreting that as being extremely touch-and-cheek.


Be that what it may, it exemplifies the anti-#GamerGate side. anti#GamerGate thinks that #GamerGate is a bunch of white cis-gendered nerds in basements, and seems unable to believe that #GamerGate is composed of different people.

Even discounting #NotYourShield (because apparently, people think they're 4chan sockpuppet accounts or something...), TFYC are a major player in this... political squabble... and they're explicitly feminists.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby omgryebread » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:Because it means *they* won. You know, the people who bullied and belittled you, who never put in the hours and decades of play that you did - now they get to call themselves gamers? They're fakers. They can't tell an N64 from a Commadore 64. They didn't put in the same time, same effort, same energy, they don't get to use that name.


Its more about the bullying side right now. People on the side of Anti-GamerGate began to encourage bullying of nerds.
So a sarcastic tweet that was apologized for the next day and condemned by the guy's employers and coworkers is bullying; but a rape threat... that's anti-bullying?


Tyndmyr wrote:But your point is well taken, that something offputting might matter more than things being overtly awesome. There are a LOT of games that are...not particularly great in terms of chars, plot, or writing, yet we've probably played plenty. That's just the status quo. Something has to be pretty overtly terrible to stand out, because video games are often, from a story perspective, pretty GD bad. In my experience, female gamers have a pretty similar spread of interests to male gamers, with maybe an exception for fighting games. I know people who are obsessed with Civilization style games, people who prefer shooters, etc, and it's pretty much the same male or female.
A lot of it is honestly community. The fighting game community is insular and kind of toxic: those are made worse by being female. It's also, by necessity, largely offline, and that makes it harder to get into. (Honestly not sure if it's less safe, but it feels it.) FPS's as well are pretty toxic. Try using voice chat on an FPS with a female player. There are definitely women who play FPS games, but there's some degree of selection. If you want to play FPS online as a girl, you have to both enjoy those and have a thick skin.

Female gamers tend to publicize their gaming less, though. Even fairly hardcore gamers who game far more than I do are less likely to have game related stuff all over their facebook.
Yeah, for the most part I keep my gaming life and other aspects strictly separate. Partly because of a past experience with someone I knew from an MMO, partly because I don't really want potential dates or employers, or casual aquantices or family to think of me that way.


On Gamergate specifically. It's not about journalism ethics, it never was. Anthony Burch of Gearbox pointed out he didn't get harassed or even questioned at all about his close friendship with people from Destructoid. Seriously, a relationship between an obscure indie dev and a writer for Kotaku was the epitome of corruption in games journalism? Not you know, a review of a AAA game on a website with a goddamn skin ad for said video game?

GG was always about how gaming is changing. There is more diversity in games, GGers don't want that. Sites like Kotaku are pushing for more diversity, are covering representation and politics in video games, and GGers don't want that.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:36 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:GG was always about how gaming is changing. There is more diversity in games, GGers don't want that. Sites like Kotaku are pushing for more diversity, are covering representation and politics in video games, and GGers don't want that.


Dude, #GamerGaters funded the TFYC Game Jam Indiegogo page in like, hours.

http://gamesnosh.com/fine-young-capital ... chans-aid/

Well over $23,000 was from 4chan/v/.

Image

Its this shit that #GamerGate gets pissed off about. Why the fuck does Zoe and Anita have this much influence over writers? Why is it, when their name is invoked, that gaming press all of a sudden starts ignoring TFYC? And how can Zoe and Anita pretend to be feminists when they're actively attacking TFYCs?
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Re: Gamergate

Postby omgryebread » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:45 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
omgryebread wrote:GG was always about how gaming is changing. There is more diversity in games, GGers don't want that. Sites like Kotaku are pushing for more diversity, are covering representation and politics in video games, and GGers don't want that.


Dude, #GamerGaters funded the TFYC Game Jam Indiegogo page in like, hours.

http://gamesnosh.com/fine-young-capital ... chans-aid/

Well over $23,000 was from 4chan/v/.
Do you honestly thing GG would have funded that if it wasn't for their feud with Zoe Quinn? Token support for a feminist organization doesn't change the fact that GG has focused their attacks on female developers and organizations that want to see a more diverse gaming industry and community. I'm glad TYFC got funded, Quinn was a jerk and totally wrong in the feud with them, but it doesn't change the goals or the attitude of GamerGate.


KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I have a hard time not interpreting that as being extremely touch-and-cheek.


Be that what it may, it exemplifies the anti-#GamerGate side. anti#GamerGate thinks that #GamerGate is a bunch of white cis-gendered nerds in basements, and seems unable to believe that #GamerGate is composed of different people.

Even discounting #NotYourShield (because apparently, people think they're 4chan sockpuppet accounts or something...), TFYC are a major player in this... political squabble... and they're explicitly feminists.
Be that what it may [rape threats] exemplify the #GamerGate side, #GamerGate things that anti#GamerGate is a bunch of bullying jerks working for Gawker, and seems unable to believe that anti#GamerGate is composed of different people.

Even discounting a ton of game developers (because apparently, they're bullied into being anti-GG or something...), Kotaku is a major player in this... idiotic protest... and they're explicitly gamers.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I have a hard time not interpreting that as being extremely touch-and-cheek.


Be that what it may, it exemplifies the anti-#GamerGate side. anti#GamerGate thinks that #GamerGate is a bunch of white cis-gendered nerds in basements, and seems unable to believe that #GamerGate is composed of different people.

Even discounting #NotYourShield (because apparently, people think they're 4chan sockpuppet accounts or something...), TFYC are a major player in this... political squabble... and they're explicitly feminists.
Be that what it may [rape threats] exemplify the #GamerGate side, #GamerGate things that anti#GamerGate is a bunch of bullying jerks working for Gawker, and seems unable to believe that anti#GamerGate is composed of different people.


Fair enough. So how's this.

So I admit that anti#GamerGate is composed of different people. And I'd like you to admit that #GamerGate is also composed of different people.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:57 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
omgryebread wrote:GG was always about how gaming is changing. There is more diversity in games, GGers don't want that. Sites like Kotaku are pushing for more diversity, are covering representation and politics in video games, and GGers don't want that.


Dude, #GamerGaters funded the TFYC Game Jam Indiegogo page in like, hours.

http://gamesnosh.com/fine-young-capital ... chans-aid/

Well over $23,000 was from 4chan/v/.
Do you honestly thing GG would have funded that if it wasn't for their feud with Zoe Quinn? Token support for a feminist organization doesn't change the fact that GG has focused their attacks on female developers and organizations that want to see a more diverse gaming industry and community. I'm glad TYFC got funded, Quinn was a jerk and totally wrong in the feud with them, but it doesn't change the goals or the attitude of GamerGate.


While I'm sure that the publicity helped it to fund it more/faster, this does support the interpretation that the feud is personal, not anti-feminist. Even if they ARE funding this solely out of spite, does that not reveal their preferences?

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Re: Gamergate

Postby omgryebread » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:59 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:So I admit that anti#GamerGate is composed of different people. And I'd like you to admit that #GamerGate is also composed of different people.
Sure thing.


#Gamergate is a misogynistic movement far more concerned with maintaining the status quo in the video game community and keeping it hostile to female developers than it is with journalism ethics. But not all of the supporters are misogynists, some are just supporting misogynists.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

Lets try that again.

I try not to characterize anti-#GamerGaters, and you try not to characterize #GamerGate.

These sorts of discussions work best when biases, characterizations, and strawmen are left at the door. Those distractions only serve to stoke the flames of war. I've shortcut my language a few times and have characterized anti#GamerGaters in some of my posts, but I try my best not to talk about the movement in general.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Chris Kluwe wrote:Thus, when I see an article titled “Gamers are dead,” referring to the death of the popular trope of a pasty young man in a dimly lit room, it fills me with joy, because it means WE FUCKING WON. So many people are playing games now that they are popular culture.

I like this sentiment.

It's essentially why I never really got why people were angry at "Gamers are dead".


I think this has to do with the fact that subcultures are subversions of popular culture. Many people are attracted to various subcultural groups because they don't fit in well with the mainstream for one reason or another, and form communities based on their outgroup status. People in outgroups often don't want to be part of popular culture. Revolts by subcultures against the commercialization of their identity is pretty common.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:36 pm UTC

Then find a new goddamn name.

Because at this point, defending it is like saying that just because eighteen Sigma Alpha Phi members were involved in torching that bus full of orphans doesn't mean ALL of them are orphan-burning assholes...without, y'know.. disbanding the local Sigma Alpha Phi as would happen in reality, and the non-asshole members joining some other Frat that shares similar non-orphan bus destruction goals or starting a new one or whatever.

I mean, you can counter with the Micheal Bolton argument, I suppose. Except it's not a name that you've had for years and was fine and only became tainted from outside, unrelated reasons. It's a name people gathered under and then the realization was made that some under the banner were assclowns and, rather than finding a new banner, you remain.

Denounce the behavior all you want, say "No no, GG is not at all about that", every time some anonymous asshole does something terrible and slaps your name on it, you're taking the credit and blame as well.

Because it looks a hell of a lot as though you're willingly letting people do terrible things because it advances your goals while having the out of #NotAllGameGaters.

While I'm sure that the publicity helped it to fund it more/faster, this does support the interpretation that the feud is personal, not anti-feminist. Even if they ARE funding this solely out of spite, does that not reveal their preferences?
Maybe.

Or maybe it's a smokescreen. Maybe it's spin. Maybe the whole ProGG side is being manipulated by a small number of people advancing an agenda and using poorly-aimed gamers as their footsoldiers.

If Zoe didn't have a pre-existing history of getting Death Threats, if Anita hadn't been a target since her kickstarter, if years ago Jade Raymond hadn't had a comic drawn about her blowing people for good reviews of Assassin's Creed, if Brianna Wu hadn't had threats that involved her home address, if goddamn Felicia Fucking Day wasn't immediately a target while Chris Kluwe apparently hasn't had shit said to him, if GG went after.. oh, I don't know.. EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Vivendi and so on to uncover definitive proof of payola, then I could believe this wasn't all about men getting upset that Women are becoming visibly involved in gaming.

But nothing happens in a vacuum and all that shit has happened... or in the case of the big publishers, has not happened.

It's getting real hard to believe Gamergate is about anything other than being shitty to women who dare be interested in games and talking about how it's not at all about being shitty to women who dare be interested in games.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

Any sufficiently large group of people on the internet will have a subset of assclowns, I suspect. Some groups are worse than others, but if we persist in judging groups by their worst, most extreme example, then all groups become terrible.

Payola has been well known for ages. I've seen mention of it for basically forever. It just doesn't pull headline because, well, well known for ages.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

Oo, even better, thanks to the Internet - #Gamergate people doxxing? Not at all, thanks to the Shaggy Defense.


But yes, that's my point - that payola has been known about for ages, that good reviews = more money. There was that one guy at.. IGN, maybe? who got fired because he gave Kane and Lynch a 6. Penny Arcade did a comic about it. This is not new information. This is not special, this is not noteworthy. Why are people *just now* getting angry about it?

And the only reason I can find is - because it creates a neat way of deflecting arguments when the real goal is to remind everyone that vidja is a boy's club - no girls allowed. Otherwise the anger would have been galvanizing around that incredibly noteworthy event.

But even taking it at face value - okay, where's the information that should be pouring out? Records of EA executives giving various reviewers fancy dinners or whatever the hell an appropriate bribe is. E-mail records of "If you give this game less than an 8 you'll never get advance review copies from us again" as those have to exist. Hell, a few have been uncovered over the years. Where are they?

Instead it seems that all the time is being spent on defending indefensible trolls to protect the name of #Gamergate when..who gives a shit what it's called? If it's about journalism ethics - get on that.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:01 pm UTC

It's all about raging at the other side. Endlessly. Two groups factionalized along lines that...aren't particularly well defined by feminism or a search for data, or whatever. Those things are merely being used as tools. Weapons, more accurately.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:11 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Then find a new goddamn name.


Like when Occupy gained a whole bunch of black-bloc protesters and they shed their name?

Image

Image

Bullshit. Movements can't change their names. They're just stuck with what they get. I don't think Occupy was composed of rioting, police hating, property-damaging road-closing jackasses. Yes, movements have to somehow keep the violence in check, but generally speaking... the most violent members within a group do not represent any group as a whole.

I think back when we were discussing Occupy on these forums, I held a similar opinion as you SecondTalon. But the more you watch these movements, the more you realize that names just cannot be changed in practice.

---------------------

With that said, the tag "#NotYourShield" is exactly the point of making a new name. #NotYourShield is the feminist / minority supporters of #GamerGate.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:16 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:Then find a new goddamn name.


Like when Occupy gained a whole bunch of black-bloc protesters and they shed their name?

Bullshit. Movements can't change their names. They're just stuck with what they get. I don't think Occupy was composed of rioting, police hating, property-damaging road-closing jackasses. Yes, movements have to somehow keep the violence in check, but generally speaking... the most violent members within a group do not represent any group as a whole.


Occupy didn't start as a rioting, police hating, property-damaging, road-closing jackasses.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:17 pm UTC

It certainly got there pretty quick.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Xeio » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:23 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Any sufficiently large group of people on the internet will have a subset of assclowns, I suspect. Some groups are worse than others, but if we persist in judging groups by their worst, most extreme example, then all groups become terrible.

Payola has been well known for ages. I've seen mention of it for basically forever. It just doesn't pull headline because, well, well known for ages.
Then maybe GG needs fucking leadership (along with a new name).

You can't form a mob and then go "but that part of the mob isn't with us".

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:24 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Occupy didn't start as a rioting, police hating, property-damaging, road-closing jackasses.


My point exactly.

Just as "Occupy" couldn't change their name when those guys joined in, #GamerGate can't just "change their name" now that /b/tard trolls have joined their side. Its not like these mobs are actually organized groups of people. They're composed of people angrily yelling at other people on the internet (or... potentially... on the street)

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Tyndmyr wrote:Any sufficiently large group of people on the internet will have a subset of assclowns, I suspect. Some groups are worse than others, but if we persist in judging groups by their worst, most extreme example, then all groups become terrible.

Payola has been well known for ages. I've seen mention of it for basically forever. It just doesn't pull headline because, well, well known for ages.
Then maybe GG needs fucking leadership (along with a new name).

You can't form a mob and then go "but that part of the mob isn't with us".


Its the way mobs are formed today. Occupy, Project Chanology, anti-SOPA, and now #GamerGate.

All you need is a few friends on Twitter and Facebook to make a mob. Its easier than it's ever been before.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Weeks » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:26 pm UTC

I hope you understand, then, when we can't take #GamerGate very seriously when they
a) are a very loosely defined group of people with seemingly no leadership or direction
b) get a bunch of trolls, misogynists and generally shitty people joining them
c) seem to want ethics in journalism but do little about it besides using it to defend themselves from criticism

Like, I think ethics is a good thing, so assuming I cared about video games that much I would probably support whoever is looking for them facts about Gamestop and IGN and whatever, while at the same time avoiding any association with the misogynist assholes who seem to be at the core of GG. After all I'm sure ethics and feminism are not mutually exclusive.

I mean, GG is new and small enough that people can avoid it outright and make a new name for their ethics in journalism movement. Assuming they care enough about it. Which doesn't seem to be the case so far.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:53 pm UTC

Sure, I'm not asking you to take Gamergate seriously.

EDIT: But I've been discussing things in this thread because I'm just not a fan of misrepresenting groups of people. I should note, I think you did a relatively fair representation of #GamerGate in your post. Others inside of this thread however, seem to have different ideas of what is going on.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:11 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby omgryebread » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Lets try that again.

I try not to characterize anti-#GamerGaters, and you try not to characterize #GamerGate.

These sorts of discussions work best when biases, characterizations, and strawmen are left at the door. Those distractions only serve to stoke the flames of war. I've shortcut my language a few times and have characterized anti#GamerGaters in some of my posts, but I try my best not to talk about the movement in general.


False equivalence. You say you won't characterize anti-#GamerGaters, for me not characterizing #GamerGate. The fuck? How am I supposed to have a conversation about it then? Let's give it a shot.Some GamerGaters are jerks. But some aren't. Some GamerGaters are misogynistic fuckoffs. Some are excellent people entirely concerned with upholding the integrity of the sacred and solemn field of video game journalism. Some GamerGaters make death and rape threats. Some condemn those. Hey, that looks like I said nothing at all! I'm fine with saying there are plenty of people who support GamerGate. There are! I would assume there are actual women who support it. I don't doubt that TYFC are feminists. I'm also comfortable saying GG is a misogynist movement. Its goals, its rhetoric, its targets: they all point to the overwhelming misogyny behind the movement.

KnightExemplar wrote:With that said, the tag "#NotYourShield" is exactly the point of making a new name. #NotYourShield is the feminist / minority supporters of #GamerGate.
Uh huh. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/

Spoiler:
Image


KnightExemplar wrote:My point exactly.

Just as "Occupy" couldn't change their name when those guys joined in, #GamerGate can't just "change their name" now that /b/tard trolls have joined their side. Its not like these mobs are actually organized groups of people. They're composed of people angrily yelling at other people on the internet (or... potentially... on the street)
What event was the trigger for #GamerGate? Was it the termination of Jeff Gerstmann? Was it when games journalists cheered when they got free XBoxes from Microsoft? Was it when Gamasutra published a survey that showed many YouTube gaming channels were getting money from the publishers?

Nope. It started when a female indie developer slept with someone who had once mentioned a game she made.

Let's take a look at another aspect of GamerGate. Is it fighting back against "bullying" that criticizes gamers as losers? Like Sam Biddle's awful tweet. Surely it condemns anyone who chacterizes gamers that way? Like what about this article that insults gamers and games repeatedly because of the actions of a few bad actors. Surely this author, Milo Yiannopoulos must be a target of GamerGate?

You can't help but feel it's a game for frustrated beta males who can't kill or shag anything in real life, so get their kicks doing it on a computer screen.

Is it me, or do these weirdos need therapy and their internet connections taken away by mum?


Hahah nope. That asshole is considered an ally of #GamerGate

But GamerGate is against bullying too! That's why they love this guy for challenging Sam Biddle to a boxing match! Yep. This guy.

. @hugoschwyzer Why don't you do the world a favor, man up, and kill yourself? Fucking coward.

I had never heard of "gaming media" until recently. Jesus Christ, guys, put down the fucking video games and stop reading retarded sites.

@rooshv Girls don't get it. If an interesting man is looking for good conversation, he'd rather talk to a man.


These aren't fringe people in the movement. These aren't
Tyndmyr wrote:a subset of assclowns
These are people GamerGate is holding up as leaders. These are the people they retweet and make threads to praise.

But no, GamerGate is all about ethics and anti-bullying.


KnightExemplar wrote:Its the way mobs are formed today. Occupy, Project Chanology, anti-SOPA, and now #GamerGate.

All you need is a few friends on Twitter and Facebook to make a mob. Its easier than it's ever been before.
Trigger for Occupy was raises in student tuition, lack of work, wall street bailouts. Point of the movement was to protest raises in student tuition, lack of work, wall street bailouts.

Trigger for Project Chanology was when the CoS used copyright claims to take down videos critical of them. Point was to protest the Church of Scientology.

anti-SOPA stuff was triggered by SOPA. Point was to protest SOPA.

GamerGate was triggered by a developer sleeping with a journalist who never reviewed her game. Claimed point of the movement is to protest bad ethics in games journalism and protest bullying of gamers.

One of those doesn't fit, huh? The one thing that we can for sure, 100% agree about supporters of GamerGate is that they choose to identify themselves with that movement. They identify with a toxic, misogynist movement that uses "concern about ethics" as a shield.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Felstaff » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:25 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I'm just not a fan of misrepresenting groups of people.

Did Weeks say that gamergate affiliates were bastions of a civilised society, torchbearers, if you will, of a progressive movement to instil an ethical foundation of sacred truth in journalism, whilst being hellbent on weeding out the negative-but-vocal and must it be said 'tiny' minority that dares taint their genuine and untarnished nature to make the world a better place?

I'm pretty sure he didn't. Ergo you must be a great fan of his.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:49 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I'm just not a fan of misrepresenting groups of people.

Did Weeks say that gamergate affiliates were bastions of a civilised society, torchbearers, if you will, of a progressive movement to instil an ethical foundation of sacred truth in journalism, whilst being hellbent on weeding out the negative-but-vocal and must it be said 'tiny' minority that dares taint their genuine and untarnished nature to make the world a better place?

I'm pretty sure he didn't. Ergo you must be a great fan of his.


I'm not sure I understand your point.

I agreed with Weeks. Perhaps my lack of sarcasm wasn't strong enough? I'm fine with his post. I honestly am. Which is why I've been arguing with other viewpoints in this thread.

I think Weeks did a fair characterization of what is going on. So... I'm not exactly understanding what the issue is here. I guess I can dispute his "point c" if I were a stickler about it... but I don't really want to quote-snipe him on a minor issue.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Felstaff » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:02 am UTC

Your post appeared to infer that Weeks was somehow misrepresenting groups of people through his post. As this isn't the case, I shall retract my reply, and offer my apologies.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:11 am UTC

Felstaff wrote:Your post appeared to infer that Weeks was somehow misrepresenting groups of people through his post. As this isn't the case, I shall retract my reply, and offer my apologies.


I can see how that would be misinterpreted. I've edited my post to hopefully clarify my language.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:30 am UTC

omgryebread, although I'm not quoting your post, be assured that I have read it in its entirety. I've tried made it clear earlier in this thread that I consider this entire event to be a toxic wasteland of discussion. Following your post precisely would lead us to the epicenter of that toxic wasteland, so I hope you understand why I'm not following you up in the typical way.

I will say that both sides have actors who have engaged in truly toxic actions throughout this "controversy". I've also made it clear that #GamerGate is a political movement. It isn't about issues, but its about politics, gaining allies and supporters through whatever means necessary. Zoe and Anita have harmed feminist causes in their attempt to burn #GamerGate, while people on behalf of #GamerGate have also made some strange and contradictory moves on their own.

This wildfire of flames and trolls will will continue as long as people aren't explicitly pointing out the true cause of this discussion. In particular, your attempt to characterize #GamerGate is explicitly to create an effigy of them, so you can burn them personally. I can't fault you for your behavior... its what the majority of the internet is doing... on both sides of this issue.

But this technique of arguing what the other side is saying, only so that you can tear it down? This is the classic straw man fallacy. A formal fallacy that honestly doesn't further debate in the slightest. I argue, that it is the constant strawman arguments that have escalated this matter to the point that it is at right now. So I try to have no part in that form of discussion.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Weeks » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:14 am UTC

If you don't want to talk about it then simply stop talking about it instead of attempting to police the discussion into what you deem isn't "toxic".

KnightExemplar wrote:I will say that both sides have actors who have engaged in truly toxic actions
They're both wrong! It's a mess! Stop arguing! Why can't we get along?!?!?!

omgryebread has posted information that shows that GamerGate did indeed originate from misogyny, which is what is being criticized. How is that "making up an argument"? What part of that do you think makes criticism of GamerGate strawmanning? What argument do you think people should be arguing against? What is this true cause of the discussion that you think we don't know, and why haven't you shared it with us?
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Re: Gamergate

Postby omgryebread » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:20 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But this technique of arguing what the other side is saying, only so that you can tear it down? This is the classic straw man fallacy. A formal fallacy that honestly doesn't further debate in the slightest. I argue, that it is the constant strawman arguments that have escalated this matter to the point that it is at right now. So I try to have no part in that form of discussion.
I'm sorry that GamerGate isn't what you think it is, or what it should be.

Look at r/KotakuInAction or the front page of /gg/ on 8chan - certainly the centers of GamerGate. On the subreddit, there is one single thread actually about journalism ethics in video games. Every other thread is bitching about media (especially Gawker) mistreating GamerGate. When I checked just now, not a single post on the first page is actually about bribery of journalists.

Look, I'm sorry, but I'm not strawmanning. Ethics in video game journalism is important, and we need the conversation. GamerGate is not that conversation, no matter how much it claims to be.

You say you read my post, but you clearly didn't follow the threads that show the bankrupt origin of GamerGate and the complete lack of conversation about it's stated noble goals.
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