Sydney Siege

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rat4000
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby rat4000 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:01 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm under the impression that a difficult hostage raises the chance of those hostages dying but reduces the chance of someone trying to take hostages in the first place.

Imagine if for example, all the Africans brought over to the Americas refused to work. They would be beaten and mutilated to death, but slavery wouldn't have caught on and fewer people would've suffered as a result.
Also, their children would've died.

Like, it's maybe okay to treat people like money, to say that these people now should die so that there's a probability that less people die in the future (I am kidding this is not okay at all) but if you've got the average mother of an eight-year-old in a hostage situation I think you can have taught her anything you want, her kid having the mother that gave birth to her will, to that mother, never matter less than your probabilities.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

If every African sold into slavery would've rather died than work, there would've been a few hundred deaths and NO MORE. If they chose to live with the suffering, 10m would've been sold into slavery. Guess which happened? So it becomes a moral question; is it the right choice to die to spare others a horrible fate? Can government make that decision; bomb the compound with the hostages in it, so that hostages would no longer be taken? I can't say I know what decision Id make, if someone kidnapped me.

Ghandi made the decision that if every Indian refused to work no matter how badly they were beaten, the British would have nothing to gain from trying to enslave India. He was right.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If every African sold into slavery would've rather died than work, there would've been a few hundred deaths and NO MORE. If they chose to live with the suffering, 10m would've been sold into slavery. Guess which happened? So it becomes a moral question; is it the right choice to die to spare others a horrible fate? Can government make that decision; bomb the compound with the hostages in it, so that hostages would no longer be taken? I can't say I know what decision Id make, if someone kidnapped me.

Ghandi made the decision that if every Indian refused to work no matter how badly they were beaten, the British would have nothing to gain from trying to enslave India. He was right.


Maybe? Or maybe they woulda tried again, and gotten more gruesome. Alternate history is crazy like that. Plus, it's not like every potential slave owning group was in communication. If one failed, another might still try without knowing.

Plus, then you have the issue of descendants ALWAYS outnumbering current people alive. The odds of terrible things happening to more than one of your descendents is probably pretty good, but that's no reason to off yourself now to avoid having any.

If memory serves, Russia's pretty cold-blooded about taking out hostages along with hostage-takers, but I don't think it's resulted in universal peace and happiness for them.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

But I haven't heard of them having hostage crises since that theatre with the Chechens.

As for descendants, the Ottoman Empire castrated all their male slaves. I don't know which is worse; castration and worked to death, or spend every day as a sex slave...

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:23 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But I haven't heard of them having hostage crises since that theatre with the Chechens.


Hostage crisis is probably preferable to assassinations or bombings or what not. Raising the stakes CAN mean people not trying something at all. But it can also mean them raising the stakes in return. If you know hostages won't save you, well, there's no point in keeping people alive, much of the time. For a certain outlook, anyway.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby rat4000 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So it becomes a moral question; is it the right choice to die to spare others a horrible fate?
Yeah, you're right, and it occurs to me that publicly discussing what is moral for hostages to do, while some recently ex-hostages are still walking home, is something I don't want to do. I'll very gladly send you a PM if you want, but I think I'll leave the thread so that my possibly page-long, probably wrong posts about moral principles don't swallow the actual news.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:56 pm UTC

It's probably been mentioned already, but the guy was out on bail when this happened. Dammit. I thought the all muslims are terrorist crowd would be bad, now I'm going to have to hear from the tough on crime crowd.

"What? Why wasn't he in prison? Why didn't the judge granting bail consider use psychic powers to see this would happen? Everyone should be locked up until court and everyone should be found guilty because guilty people always get off and there's no such thing as wrongfully accused people and everyone should get a life sentence because we're too lenient on crime why don't we just kill them all anyway?"

I imagine they speak in run-on sentences.

EDIT: And fuck, he was here because he had been granted asylum. Shit. With Australia already having an abysmal record when it comes to refugees and asylum seekers, this isn't going to help.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:17 am UTC

Need a little something to lift your spirits about the whole thing? Here's some good news.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:14 am UTC

Good to see this thread didn't fall apart while I was asleep...

Until his entry into the global media spotlight as the shadowy figure at the centre of the Sydney siege, Man Haron Monis had long been viewed as a fringe figure in Sydney’s Islamic community, his self-radicalisation rooted in grievances against the Australian government and increasing marginalisation among his peers.

The self-proclaimed spiritual healer had achieved a degree of notoriety as the author of “grossly offensive” letters sent to taunt parents and relatives of Australians killed by extremism in Indonesia as well as troops who lost their lives in Afghanistan between 2007 and 2009.

Well known to the Australian police, he had been consumed by his conviction for the offence, unsuccessfully challenging the conviction in the high court last year and making several vehement and erratic public statements claiming to be innocent.

He also faced numerous charges relating to his time working as a “spiritual healer” – including 22 counts of aggravated sexual assault and 14 counts of aggravated indecent assault – and had been bailed for allegedly being an accessory to the killing of his former wife.

Rupert Murdoch, media magnate and executive chairman of News Corp, is holidaying in his native Australia for Christmas so has been in the country for the siege.

Flags on all NSW Government buildings will fly at half-mast today to honour those who lost their lives in the siege at the Lindt café in Sydney’s CBD, NSW Premier Mike Baird has announced.

The Premier is also inviting people who wish to lay a floral tribute to the victims to do so at Martin Place. Condolence books will also be provided later today near the Martin Place water fountain, facing Pitt Street.


More on the fatally shot hostage who has been named as Katrina Dawson.

She was a barrister who practised in Eight Selborne chambers not far from the Lindt café.

Working in commercial law, her areas of practise were banking and insolvency, bankruptcy commercial Competition and Consumer Law, Corporations Law, Equity and Property.

She had three children.

Flags at Commonwealth Government buildings will also be flown at half mast, along with flags at New South Wales government buildings, prime minister Tony Abbott has announced.


The man shot in the Sydney siege was Lindt Cafe manager, Tori Johnson, ABC is reporting.

He was 34 years old.


Deputy police commissioner, Catherine Burn, says police will not be commenting on the reports surrounding the siege as it is the subject of a police investigation.

She will not comment on reports Lindt cafe manager, Tori Johnson, was trying to wrestle the gun of the gunman when he was fatally wounded. She will not say whether the hostages who fled the siege were released or escaped of their own volition and she will certainly not be saying if the wounded were shot by police or the gunman in the confrontation.

More details on those injured in the siege have been released by New South Wales police:
*A 52-year-old woman was shot in the foot and is in a stable condition.
*A 43-year-old woman was shot in the leg and is in a stable condition.
*A 39-year-old man suffered a minor facial injury due to a gunshot. He has been treated at hospital and discharged.
*A 35-year-old pregnant woman was assessed for health and welfare purposes. She is in a stable condition.
*A 30-year-old pregnant woman was assessed for health and welfare purposes. She is also in a stable condition.
*A 75 year-old woman was shot in the shoulder. She is in a stable condition.

Prime minister Tony Abbott has said the gunman “sought to cloak his actions with the symbolism of the Isil death cult”

The bodies of the three people killed during the siege at Lindt cafe in Martin Place will be examined at the Glebe mortuary by a forensic pathologist who will provide a report to the state coroner concerning the case and how the three died.

The NSW state coroner released a statement saying an inquest is mandatory under the Coroner’s Act as the deaths occurred in the course of a police operation.

Detectives raided the home of Man Haron Monis’s partner this morning in New South Wales, News Corp is reporting





Over in Canberra, the department of foreign affairs, or Dfat, is currently being evacuated for reasons as yet unconfirmed.

The Australian Federal Police bomb squad are at the scene at Dfat in Canberra, responding to a “supicious package.”

This from ACT Policing:

ACT Policing is investigating a suspicious package located in the canteen area of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Barton this afternoon (Tuesday, December 16).

About 1.45pm, ACT Policing received the report of the suspicious package at DFAT on John McEwen Crescent.

ACT Policing provided a coordinated response and cordoned the area as a standard safety precaution.

Evacuations are underway at DFAT and road closures implemented. Members of the AFP Bomb Response Team are in attendance.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby addams » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:32 am UTC

Clix wrote:
Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.


My guess would be unable to account for the deflection of the bullet when it hits the glass. I did a quick skim of this Behavior of Bullets Fired Through Glass and it seems the long and short of it is; There ain't no telling where it will end up. Not being a ballistic expert not I'm not sure how it effects high velocity/power bullets.

Thank you for that link.
I had no idea glass had such a potentially large effect on bullets.

That explains Why the idiot that shot out the kitchen window, missed.
I thought he was, just, a crap shot. No. The window deflected the shot.

That explains a lot.
Don't tell too many people.
That little fact may be Why so many of us are still walking around.

From dark outside to light inside though glass seems like it would be an easy and good shot.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Carlington » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:43 am UTC

Clix wrote:
Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.


My guess would be unable to account for the deflection of the bullet when it hits the glass. I did a quick skim of this Behavior of Bullets Fired Through Glass and it seems the long and short of it is; There ain't no telling where it will end up. Not being a ballistic expert not I'm not sure how it effects high velocity/power bullets.

To expand (slightly) on this, the (unconfirmed) reasoning I've heard for this is that the Lindt cafe is in an old bank building, the windows of which had rather thick glass, so it may have taken more than one shot before anything could effectively pass through the window.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:55 am UTC

There was one article I read this morning saying that a sniper positioned in the Channel 7 building reported the gunshots, which was the reason police went in. That also reported that one of the deceased hostages went for the gun, which caused the shot, but those reports are as yet unconfirmed, so I'm not sure of the status of the report of the existence of a sniper.

Back in Canberra, journalists are being corralled to the south-west corner of York Park, about 200m metres from the Dfat building.

The building was evacuated and an exclusion zone put in place after a “suspicious package” was discovered in the canteen, which is open to the public, at 1.46pm.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:24 am UTC

An update on that package
After more than two hours, the package was deemed safe, and all roads were reopened.
which was pretty much as expected.

Life goes on, except for Tori Johnson, Katrina Dawson and the attacker, and hopefully a couple of days from now things will feel more normal.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:04 am UTC

http://www.smh.com.au/national/sydney-s ... 28csz.html
Both Mr Small and the former officer were skeptical about theories the gunman could have been shot through the window.

Both said it appeared the gunman had shown himself early in the day, before snipers would have been in position and also before police were in possession of vital information, such as how many gunmen were in the café.

"It's a very dangerous thing to do, for a start you don't know what's going to happen to the projectile once it goes though the glass," said the former senior officer.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:02 am UTC

So pissed off at Abbott. He implies that the attacker had a gun license. The NSW authorities categorically deny it. Surely, with the telegraph doing its best to misinform, its the authorities responsibility to get stuff like this right.

http://www.pedestrian.tv/news/arts-and- ... bdb4e6.htm
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Alexius » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:As for descendants, the Ottoman Empire castrated all their male slaves. I don't know which is worse; castration and worked to death, or spend every day as a sex slave...


[Tangent]Not sure how true this actually is. The Ottomans certainly had eunuch slaves, but not all male slaves in the Ottoman Empire were eunuchs. For instance, the Janissaries were slaves and it got to the point where positions in the Janissary Corps were hereditary- difficult if they had all been castrated! Also, the Ottomans never castrated slaves themselves- Islamic law forbade it, though it did allow them to buy castrated slaves.

There is also a population of Turks of African origin who are descended from African slaves, so slaves in the Ottoman Empire certainly have descendants.

Also, slavery in the Ottoman Empire was not like it was in the US. While obviously still abhorrent, slaves had significant legal rights (including, according to some sources, the right to demand to be sold if they disliked their master, and escape if he refused!) and could rise to positions of significant power not just over other slaves but over non-slaves. The Kizlar-Agha, often regarded as the third most powerful person in the Empire, was a eunuch.
[/Tangent]

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:33 pm UTC

Tangent
Crimean slave trade.
The Ottomans didn't seem to care about the castrations
/Tangent


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