No. Male != penis and female != vagina.
This notion that there are exactly two sexes, that they line up exactly with genitals and that a person's sex or gender are fixed is bullshit and an idea which was not shared with much of the world in the pre-colonial era and, at that point, was actually fairly new to European culture.
Furthermore the sex/gender distinction doesn't really exist. It was something which was invented in the early days of trans community to try and explain what it means to be trans. It may have been some help with that in the past, but now does far more harm than good and the trans community seems to be coming around to the idea that it's damaging.
Your notion of sex also erases and harms intersex people by reinforcing a sex binary that leads to dangerous, unnecessary, irreversible surgery on newborn babies to "normalise" their genitals if the doctor decides it's not clear enough whether their junk is a penis or vulva.
I also doubt that this is how you actually think of sex; it's just how you've rationalised it. Say you're in whatever toilet it is you use and someone comes in, goes into a cubicle to pee sitting down, you know nothing about that person's genitals but, from what you've said, I'm happy to be you're still happy to form a judgement about whether that person is in the "right" toilet. You're not basing it on people's genitals, you're basing it on your cisnormative notions of what men and women look like.
If you do still maintain that your notion of sex is based on genitals then I'd like to know why you think it's acceptable to ask someone what shape their genitals are. Hopefully you'd agree that it's not acceptable to ask a cis woman if the carpets match the drapes or what her labia are like; why is it suddenly ok to ask what her genitals look like if you think she might be trans?
And that's not how pronouns are determined. Pronouns are, and have been determined by people's self perceptions for centuries at least (in Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar, written in the 13th century, Þórbergr accedes to the throne of Sweden and is known as "king Þórbergr"; he also threatens to execute anyone who refers to him with female pronouns) and, regardless, if you have a friend whose birth certificate gives their name as "Tarquin Nathaniel Pinkerton" but who hates being called anything other than "Nate" and you call them "Tarquin", you are being an arsehole. Why do you think it's different with pronouns than with names?
A trans woman entering a female toilet is not a male entering a female toilet unless you are using an outdated and oppressive idea of what gender or sex is.
Lastly, if you don't let a trans person use the toilet of their choice, you are contributing to a system which oppresses trans people and leads to the disproportionate number of trans people murdered (URL lists all the trans people, mostly trans women of colour, who are confirmed as having been murdered for being trans in 2014 with lists for other years as well) and vastly disproportionate suicides.
This bill would make it illegal not to do something which leads to people's deaths. You know what that would be called if the person being murdered or killing themselves wasn't trans? Manslaughter.
Note: it was unclear whether you meant that someone born with a penis who had surgery to construct a vulva and vagina would still be male in your eyes or would be female. I chose to interpret it as the latter.
morriswalters wrote:eSOANEM wrote:When people talk about biological sex of a person though, this is not what they're talking about; what they're doing is taking their cisnormative notions of gender and calling it sex. It's a lazy excuse to misgender people and is transphobic
Wikipedia. Sorry I'm lazy.Are you stating that this is incorrect?Many animals and some plants have differences between the male and female sexes in size and appearance, a phenomenon called sexual dimorphism. Sex differences in humans include, generally, a larger size and more body hair in men; women have breasts, wider hips, and a higher body fat percentage. In other species, the differences may be more extreme, such as differences in coloration or bodyweight. In humans, biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia.
Seeing as that citation is to a book entitled "choices in relationships - an introduction to marriage and the family", is not written by biologists, and that all the actual biologists I've spoken have told me that biological sex is based on gametes (as does the top of the article), yes. I am saying that that's wrong.
speising wrote:Besides, as I mentioned earlier, and you seem to have glossed over, neither genitals nor chromosomes are relevant to the ability to piss standing up, they have standing urination devices for that now (and many soft packers can also be used or modified to be used as standing urination devices).
So yeah, whether someone wants and is able to pee standing up is intricately tied to their gender.
those two paragraphs are contradictory. you just said that women can pee with a device (or a little practice, btw.). whether someone needs that or has a built in device is entirely a physical thing, and i hear there are cis females who like to do that, so where does gender even com in here?
the truth is that women can feel uncomfortable if someone who looks like a man is in their restroom. it's unreasonable to expect everyone to conduct a thorough survey of everyones sexual and gender preferences everytime they enter a restroom, it's impossible to know these intricacies from looks alone, and perverts could even use gender based rules to sneak into their preys rooms.
I know people with vulvas can pee standing up without a urination device, but afaik, it's not possible to do so without removing some clothing.
They're not contradictory because I didn't say that people wanting to pee standing up was solely due to gender. Lots of trans men experience a lot of dysphoria around their ability to pee standing up because society makes it a big part of what it means to be a man. As such, if toilets were split into urinals and cubicles, you'd get a lot higher a proportion of trans men using the urinals than cis women. You'd also get a much lower proportion of trans women using the urinals (because many trans women find peeing standing up induces dysphoria). This is what I mean when I say it's intricately tied to gender.
The key point is that if someone tells you they're in the toilet for them, they know a hell of a lot better than you whether that's correct.