US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:57 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Would you be on with someone bringing and leaving snakes into a playground, say, 3 to 5 times a week?


Absolutely!

Oh, wait, sorry, I thought the question was "Would you happily endanger local children to get unlimited free snakes?"

A closer metaphor would be a swarm of killer bees, except they multiply after they sting you.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Would you be on with someone bringing and leaving snakes into a playground, say, 3 to 5 times a week?
No. So what's your point? That kids on a playground unvaccinated are as dangerous as snakes? Maybe or maybe not. If you have vaccinated your kids then no. Do you send your children to the playground before age one? Did you get your children vaccinated at 12 months? That should get you about 95 percent protection. Isn't that correct? And the CDC say to vaccinate earlier if traveling overseas. Are there special classes of children who are at greater risk? Certainly. My argument would be that even if you mandated it for everyone, man, women and child, you can't reduce the risk to zero. And that it isn't cost effective to try and do so. Schools are the salient place to operate. Get everyone who attends school vaccinated and you have accomplished all the heavy lifting. If you want to tighten the screws make sure that no one leaves the country unvaccinated.

Mokele wrote:Oh, wait, sorry, I thought the question was "Would you happily endanger local children to get unlimited free snakes?"
Since you seem to be talented mathematically. Could you calculate, that at 92 percent coverage of vaccinations nationwide and at 95 percent efficacy of said vaccination, what the chances are of being infected if you are exposed and what are the chances of being exposed?. Another salient point would be that most if not all the people infected were unvaccinated. Once infected they then become immune. And to help you in your calculation the herd immunity threshold is between 84 percent and 94 percent. We are currently at 92 percent nationally.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:56 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:That kids on a playground unvaccinated are as dangerous as snakes?
More, actually, since you can see snakes and thus try and avoid them, and once a snake bites it's not likely to then also bite someone else.

morriswalters wrote: Do you send your children to the playground before age one? Did you get your children vaccinated at 12 months?
No, not until they are vaccinated. No, you get your child vaccinated according to this schedule, so, MMR at 6mo. But bringing your kid out and about before they are vaccinated is fine because herd immunity is a thing. Unless it isn't... in which case... you get angry at parents who are deliberately leaving snakes everywhere they go.

morriswalters wrote:Are there special classes of children who are at greater risk?
Of disease transmission? Yes, those who are unvaccinated or immunocompromised. Also, vaccines aren't assurances against all forms of exposure. If you put a vaccinated kid in a roomful of unvaccinated kids who are all sick, the vaccinated kid may still become ill.

morriswalters wrote: Schools are the salient place to operate. Get everyone who attends school vaccinated and you have accomplished all the heavy lifting. If you want to tighten the screws make sure that no one leaves the country unvaccinated.
I thought we covered this already - schools aren't the only public spaces that exist. Doctors offices are another example. So are grocery stores, parks, public transit, etc.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Mokele » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Would you be on with someone bringing and leaving snakes into a playground, say, 3 to 5 times a week?
No. So what's your point? That kids on a playground unvaccinated are as dangerous as snakes?


Depending on species, sure. Copperheads are actually quite laid-back and reluctant to bite.

I should also note that I brought the snakes up as a shock tactic - I assumed, apparently erroneously, that the mere fact that measles has a death-rate comparable to venomous snakebite would effectively shut down the "measles isn't that bad" viewpoint. Instead, I find that people are apparently willing to allow their kids to follow looser animal safety protocols than most back-country snake-handling revival preachers.

morriswalters wrote:If you have vaccinated your kids then no. Do you send your children to the playground before age one? Did you get your children vaccinated at 12 months? That should get you about 95 percent protection. Isn't that correct?


And if the kid *can't* be vaccinated? I've actually seen a fair few blog posts of parents whose kids have cancer complaining that there is literally no safe daycare, playgroup, school, etc. for their kids to safely go to.


The point, that you seem to be missing, is that in a cost-benefit analysis of this situation, there is literally nothing in the benefit column. Zero. Nothing. Nada.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:26 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:Instead, I find that people are apparently willing to allow their kids to follow looser animal safety protocols than most back-country snake-handling revival preachers.
Maybe we should play on some deep rooted -isms...

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:31 pm UTC

What you're missing is to people like morris, ' freedom' is its own benefit. For example I could use my new found freedom to not wash my hands as I prepare food for morris. Making me wash my hands after I wipe my ass abridges my freedom so f all of you. This is why strict libertarians arent viable. Sure he could avoid eating at noncleanly places , but there's no easy way for him to tell.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:38 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Mokele wrote:Oh, wait, sorry, I thought the question was "Would you happily endanger local children to get unlimited free snakes?"
Since you seem to be talented mathematically. Could you calculate, that at 92 percent coverage of vaccinations nationwide and at 95 percent efficacy of said vaccination, what the chances are of being infected if you are exposed and what are the chances of being exposed?. Another salient point would be that most if not all the people infected were unvaccinated. Once infected they then become immune. And to help you in your calculation the herd immunity threshold is between 84 percent and 94 percent. We are currently at 92 percent nationally.


That's going to vary by disease, as different immunizations have varying efficacy and diseases vary in virulence.

sardia wrote:What you're missing is to people like morris, ' freedom' is its own benefit. For example I could use my new found freedom to not wash my hands as I prepare food for morris. Making me wash my hands after I wipe my ass abridges my freedom so f all of you. This is why strict libertarians arent viable. Sure he could avoid eating at noncleanly places , but there's no easy way for him to tell.


Us libertarian sorts tend to accept that people have a responsibility to handle their own business and not endanger others. I would be open to reasonable objections like "I believe the risk/reward of this vaccination program is superior to this one in my case because of X". That's a perfectly fine case. But we're not seeing that. We're seeing folks that are endangering others due to willful ignorance, and not making even the slightest effort to pay for the externality they are responsible for.

I'm fine if YOU want to die in the gutter because of refusing medical care, but I don't much want you to take society with you.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:42 pm UTC

Wait, stop a moment - strict libertarians find the notion of restricting another persons freedoms to be abhorrent. This often results in a disconnect, but a strict libertarian doesn't believe that everyone should have the right to murder everyone else, for example. Libertarians don't believe that traffic lights are a bad idea. I consider myself somewhat libertarian, and also think supporting a meritocracy is very important. That requires safety nets and municipalities for people who can't otherwise afford it, and le gasp, it also includes vaccinating people whether or not they want it because the individual choice is not more important than the whole populations disease immunity.

But fine, yes, 'freedom' is it's own reward. The trick then is making very apropos analogies like Mokele did and underlining that the risk they are signing not just their children up for, but also all the other children that their child encounters. It *IS* about underlining that you are endangering people, and coming up with analogous risks that help contextualize it. All kidding aside, I think Mokele's example is actually spot on. People are extraordinarily terrible at assaying direct and hidden risk, so, analogies like OHMYGODTHERESAFUCKINGSNAKEINTHATJUNGLEGYM are actually pretty useful.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:45 pm UTC

If you are going to quote me, get the complete quote so that it makes sense.
morriswalters wrote:Are there special classes of children who are at greater risk? Certainly.
Izawwlgood wrote:MMR at 6mo
Look at your chart, not recommended at 6 months unless traveling.
Izawwlgood wrote:But bringing your kid out and about before they are vaccinated is fine because herd immunity is a thing. Unless it isn't... in which case... you get angry at parents who are deliberately leaving snakes everywhere they go.
Where are you taking your children before age one? In any case herd immunity doesn't mean that everyone is vaccinated, does it? So what I am hearing is that you don't seem to believe in herd immunity unless it is at 100 percent. Is that correct? How did Disneyland get started? Someone brought the infection from overseas, isn't that the prevailing wisdom? Which leads us back to no one should leave without being vaccinated.
Izawwlgood wrote:I thought we covered this already - schools aren't the only public spaces that exist. Doctors offices are another example. So are grocery stores, parks, public transit, etc.
It isn't that those are the only public spaces, it's that if every child who attends school is vaccinated that we end up were you want to end up without mandating a vaccination for everyone.

Mokele wrote:The point, that you seem to be missing, is that in a cost-benefit analysis of this situation, there is literally nothing in the benefit column. Zero. Nothing. Nada.
So you aren't so good at math. Ok. The benefit is giving the most freedom with the least harm. The question is, what is the least amount of investment which gives us the maximum return. To maintain herd immunity we need to keep the National average above 95 percent. Mississippi is at 99.7 or so. Simply by mandating that all children in public and private schools get vaccinated. No Religious or philosophical exemptions. Somewhere around 98 percent of children attend elementary school.

sardia wrote:What you're missing is to people like morris, ' freedom' is its own benefit. For example I could use my new found freedom to not wash my hands as I prepare food for morris. Making me wash my hands after I wipe my ass abridges my freedom so f all of you. This is why strict libertarians arent viable. Sure he could avoid eating at noncleanly places , but there's no easy way for him to tell.
Would you volunteer to be the bathroom monitor? Hand washing is already mandated in places where the benefits are felt. Can you name them? And why should I care if you don't wash yours.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:50 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:But bringing your kid out and about before they are vaccinated is fine because herd immunity is a thing. Unless it isn't... in which case... you get angry at parents who are deliberately leaving snakes everywhere they go.
Where are you taking your children before age one? In any case herd immunity doesn't mean that everyone is vaccinated, does it? So what I am hearing is that you don't seem to believe in herd immunity unless it is at 100 percent. Is that correct? How did Disneyland get started? Someone brought the infection from overseas, isn't that the prevailing wisdom? Which leads us back to no one should leave without being vaccinated


Uh, you take your kid wherever you're going, really. Before age one, they really can't handle life on their own. So, if you go to get groceries, they're going to the grocery store. Do you...think kids live at home entirely until age one? Really?

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:05 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Look at your chart, not recommended at 6 months unless traveling.
Hmm? No it doesn't - the highlighted bars mean 'you can vaccinate any time during the indicated age range'.
morriswalters wrote:Where are you taking your children before age one? In any case herd immunity doesn't mean that everyone is vaccinated, does it? So what I am hearing is that you don't seem to believe in herd immunity unless it is at 100 percent. Is that correct? How did Disneyland get started? Someone brought the infection from overseas, isn't that the prevailing wisdom? Which leads us back to no one should leave without being vaccinated.
Well, I don't have any kids, but my experiencing hanging out with people who do have kids is 'pretty much anywhere within reason'? I have friends who would take their newborns to concerts (with tiny earmuffs), and at the very least, plenty of parents take their kids out for walks around the area.

I can't recall the name offhand of that logical fallacy - no, I am not saying herd immunity = 0% or 100%. I'm saying the more we reduce the herds immunity, the less effective herd immunity is.

Disneyland happened because a handful (or one?) unvaccinated kid(s?) were there, and they were sick, and they got some other kids sick. No one is suggesting herd immunity or vaccines are 100% effective. Just like no one is saying 'well, antibiotics don't cure all diseases, clearly we should stop using them'.

As for where that patient came from, please just google a bit.

morriswalters wrote:So you aren't so good at math. Ok. The benefit is giving the most freedom with the least harm. The question is, what is the least amount of investment which gives us the maximum return. To maintain herd immunity we need to keep the National average above 95 percent. Mississippi is at 99.7 or so. Simply by mandating that all children in public and private schools get vaccinated. No Religious or philosophical exemptions. Somewhere around 98 percent of children attend elementary school.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here - Mississippi 'limited freedom' and got the number up high. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

morriswalters wrote:Would you volunteer to be the bathroom monitor? Hand washing is already mandated in places where the benefits are felt. Can you name them? And why should I care if you don't wash yours.
Ok, now I think you're being willfully daft.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:13 pm UTC

Morris, measles aren't geographically restricted. Their spread depends on us loosening herd immunity rates. That roughly means 95% and you can't cluster the 5% together. So according to your twisted logic, we should mandate vaccination on the 5% of holdouts, and let the rest be optional.

Also way to commit a logical fallacy asshole. Just because I support mandatory hand washing doesn't mean the only solution is to stare at people in bathrooms. I don't suggest you take LSD and listen to hippy music just because you're an isolationist.

PS measles also comes from tourists abroad, not Americans returning.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby BlackSails » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

Does insurance pay for treatment/hospitalization if you refuse vaccination and then contract the illness you refused vaccination for?

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:40 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Does insurance pay for treatment/hospitalization if you refuse vaccination and then contract the illness you refused vaccination for?


Normally, yeah. A lot of coverage is mandated at a state or federal level, so insurance companies don't have a great deal of flexibility here.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Mokele » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Mokele wrote:The point, that you seem to be missing, is that in a cost-benefit analysis of this situation, there is literally nothing in the benefit column. Zero. Nothing. Nada.
So you aren't so good at math. Ok. The benefit is giving the most freedom with the least harm. The question is, what is the least amount of investment which gives us the maximum return. To maintain herd immunity we need to keep the National average above 95 percent. Mississippi is at 99.7 or so. Simply by mandating that all children in public and private schools get vaccinated. No Religious or philosophical exemptions. Somewhere around 98 percent of children attend elementary school.


Leaving aside the pointless ad-hominem attack, your assumption hinges on an evenly mixed population.

By your logic, nobody should ever die in Death Valley because 70% of the earth is covered in water and the average global temperature is just 57F. It's not just the average, it's the spatio-temporal distribution.

You also seem to have no idea what herd immunity means. It does *NOT* mean that the disease is gone, that nobody in a highly-vaccinated area will ever get it again, or anything like that. It means that, if one person from a different area comes in, carrying the disease, only a few people in contact will get infected (those for whom the vaccine didn't work or those unable to take it), and the outbreak will burn itself out and never become an epidemic. Without sufficient herd immunity, the disease will be able to transmit more often, and jump into new hosts faster than current hosts clear the infection, resulting in an epidemic unless it's controlled.

Smallpox was eradicated because we were able to vaccinate so many people and achieve total herd immunity, causing viral extinction (aside from preserved lab samples). Measles has not been because there are large areas with minimal vaccination. Other viruses can never be eradicated even with perfect vaccines because they have non-human reservoirs (e.g. Ebola).

Think of it like watering my lawn. It's not that there are no dead blades of grass that can catch fire, or that live blades can't catch fire, but that it makes the fire a lot less likely to spread compared to a lawn of mostly or entirely dead grass. But if there's just a patch of dead grass, that can let the fire gain enough strength to spread anyway. Not a perfect analogy, but I think you see what I'm getting at.

Besides, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:12 pm UTC

Mokele wrote: your assumption hinges on an evenly mixed population.
No it doesn't. Schools have the greatest penetration everywhere. And the rest was me being sarcastic. Snakes do that to me.
sardia wrote:Morris, measles aren't geographically restricted.
Neither are schools. If you mandate it for schools and make no exceptions than you end up with the coverage you seek. Mississippi is the proof of that. As for tourists, make them show proof that they have been vaccinated, say in their documentation that they must have to cross the border. Just out of curiosity how would you monitor hand washing?
Izawwlgood wrote:Hmm? No it doesn't - the highlighted bars mean 'you can vaccinate any time during the indicated age range'.
Look closer, perhaps a ruler would help. Or if that is too much trouble check the CDC, like I did.
Izawwlgood wrote:I can't recall the name offhand of that logical fallacy - no, I am not saying herd immunity = 0% or 100%. I'm saying the more we reduce the herds immunity, the less effective herd immunity is.
I quoted you a range from the Wikipedia from 85 to 95 percent. We are at 92, if we followed Mississippi's example USA wide we would be at 99 percent or so. By the way, 99 is the best figure worldwide. North Korea beats us at 98. Those numbers from the World Bank.
Izawwlgood wrote:I don't understand what point you're trying to make here - Mississippi 'limited freedom' and got the number up high. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
The same thing I've been saying, catch this problem at schools.
Izawwlgood wrote:Ok, now I think you're being willfully daft.
No , I'm being shitty. Sardia managed to make me mad. His motto seems to be germ free at any price. This is a reference to another post.

We differ only in the sense I believe in putting effort where it will do the most good. Schools are it. If you want to home school and and skip vaccinations so be it. Even at that you can be certain that there would be court challenges that will take years to settle. Even in the present circumstances this is mostly confined to the problem population, antivaxxers. As sorry as I might be that their parents are morons from my point of view no one has yet demonstrated that we need to override the parents wishes under guise of law, other than the one place kids have to be, school. The kids infected today are out of the equation.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby EMTP » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:20 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:We're seeing folks that are endangering others due to willful ignorance, and not making even the slightest effort to pay for the externality they are responsible for.


Yep. One might even say that there are a number of other public policy debates in which this dynamic manifests itself.

It would seem to me that mandating vaccination is a very small sacrifice of freedom for a very large public health benefit. We would want to limit any requirement to vaccines of proven effectiveness and safety.

As sorry as I might be that their parents are morons from my point of view no one has yet demonstrated that we need to override the parents wishes under guise of law, other than the one place kids have to be, school.


That's pretty tortured reasoning. We need to override parent's wishes, but we can do it in this one particular way, and therefore you must prove to me that this particular way won't work, or it's immoral to do it any other way.

To which I reply, "Huh?"

Of course, you could limit lots of lots in lots of ways to allow more freedom and still prevent some or most of the harm. You could say speed limits only apply to paved roads; you would still save a lot of lives, since the vast majority of miles driven in America are on paved roads. What kind of a tyrant are you, then, to cruelly rob the freedom of those who drive on dirt roads?

We aren't going to exempt homeschoolers from sexual abuse laws or child labor laws, so the question really is why we should exempt them from laws designed to prevent deadly diseases. It seems to me you need to make a positive argument for that, rather than just to say it's possible to do it another way.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 am UTC

EMTP wrote:That's pretty tortured reasoning. We need to override parent's wishes, but we can do it in this one particular way, and therefore you must prove to me that this particular way won't work, or it's immoral to do it any other way.

To which I reply, "Huh?"
There is nothing tortured about it. And evidently some members of California's legislature see it that way as well.
EMTP wrote:We aren't going to exempt homeschoolers from sexual abuse laws or child labor laws, so the question really is why we should exempt them from laws designed to prevent deadly diseases. It seems to me you need to make a positive argument for that, rather than just to say it's possible to do it another way.
Stay focused. Just because you think these things are similar doesn't mean that the public at large does. And for that matter neither does the law. Both child abuse and child labor laws are passive and don't require intrusive procedures. And if you go to force a child to submit to a medical procedure of any type against their parents will, I believe that it become a matter of law. I'm open to being shown that I am wrong. Whereas simply closing the loopholes in the existing law is a simpler push. You might eventually get your way after extensive litigation.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:53 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:The same thing I've been saying, catch this problem at schools.
I feel like we're going in circles here... Yes... catch the problem in schools... Buuuuuuut;
Because children exist in places other than schools, at what point do you allow other parents to effectively release snakes into your public parks, grocery stores, libraries, etc, etc, etc.

This is why I think you're being willfully daft here - you just keep repeating the same hollow objections, accepting our answers, then bringing up your objections again.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:32 am UTC

You're stuck on snakes. And I really don't like being called daft. I'm stuck on schools because it is politically what is possible. 98 percent of the kids in America attend day care and elementary school, both public and private. All three licensed(in most cases) by state governments. It's one thing to say, if you intend to use these assets that you must show yourself as safe to be in congress with the rest of society. It is quite another to say that without exception you must undergo a medical procedure. What you seem to desire even though you say it isn't, is to reach zero risk for kids. Now maybe somewhere else you might stick a needle in a child without the parents consent, depending the population you are talking about, but I don't believe it would work here.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:15 pm UTC

I'm stuck on snakes because it's a very on point analogy. We've made several other very on point analogies that you didn't bat an eye at. How do you feel about the 'freedom limiting' requirement that children be in car seats? That's not a 'suggestion', or something that only applies to and from school, that's a law.

This freedom argument is very lacking, for reasons we've outlined numerous times. I get that you think requiring vaccinations to go to public schools is the only measure that can/will/should/may/might be taken, but what we're trying to convey to you is that some people think we should go further.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Diadem » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:22 pm UTC

In politics you take what you can get. If mandating vaccinations before you can attend school is politically the best way to achieve more vaccination, I am in favour of it. But it's clearly a band-aid solution. First of all, what can be easily introduced can be easily taken away. Secondly, it's bad design. There is no logical link between schools and vaccination, so introducing a legal link makes your legislation and enforcement more complex than it should be. It's like making a building with the entrance and the elevator at opposite sides of the structure. It works, and when you're retrofitting an elevator into an existing building it might even be the best solution, but it's still inconvenient and inelegant, leading to confusion and longer commutes.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby PeteP » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:27 pm UTC

Though when talking about the US isn't it a regulation that already exists? Just with big holes because you can easily get an exemption? Or do I remember it wrong.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:00 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:There is no logical link between schools and vaccination, so introducing a legal link makes your legislation and enforcement more complex than it should be. It's like making a building with the entrance and the elevator at opposite sides of the structure. It works, and when you're retrofitting an elevator into an existing building it might even be the best solution, but it's still inconvenient and inelegant, leading to confusion and longer commutes.
I would disagree. Everyone goes to school, it's mandated. Enforcement is simple. And the infrastructure is already in place. As is the infrastructure of requiring vaccinations before crossing the border. And for the record this also includes day cares. The alternative is to try to go into every home in America and pry those kids out. And again for the record we already know this works, at least two state do it, including oddly enough Mississippi, which has a rate of around 99 percent.
PeteP wrote:Though when talking about the US isn't it a regulation that already exists? Just with big holes because you can easily get an exemption? Or do I remember it wrong.
You are correct.
Izawwlgood wrote:some people think we should go further
As is your right. In principle I agree. But what you want and what you might get are two very different things. While you are fighting a significant fight that involves entrenched belief systems, others will be practicing the art of the achievable, which is occasionally called politics.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:15 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I would disagree. Everyone goes to school, it's mandated.

That's not true. Homeschooling is a thing. And while it's certainly true that homeschooled children are a distinct minority, they're not randomly distributed. Which matters in this case.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:37 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:
morriswalters wrote:I would disagree. Everyone goes to school, it's mandated.

That's not true. Homeschooling is a thing. And while it's certainly true that homeschooled children are a distinct minority, they're not randomly distributed. Which matters in this case.
For what it's worth ask yourself where the data on vaccination rates come from.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Mokele » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:59 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: But what you want and what you might get are two very different things. While you are fighting a significant fight that involves entrenched belief systems, others will be practicing the art of the achievable, which is occasionally called politics.


So your political philosophy is "pick the low-hanging fruit then give up?"
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:05 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:In politics you take what you can get. If mandating vaccinations before you can attend school is politically the best way to achieve more vaccination, I am in favour of it. But it's clearly a band-aid solution. First of all, what can be easily introduced can be easily taken away. Secondly, it's bad design. There is no logical link between schools and vaccination, so introducing a legal link makes your legislation and enforcement more complex than it should be. It's like making a building with the entrance and the elevator at opposite sides of the structure. It works, and when you're retrofitting an elevator into an existing building it might even be the best solution, but it's still inconvenient and inelegant, leading to confusion and longer commutes.


As one potential unfortunate outcome, it may make anti-vaxxers more likely to keep their kids home from school. Now, I'm not entirely against homeschooling(though I view it warily), but I am concerned over folks who make significant educational decisions for non-educational reasons.

Plus, the sort of parent who doesnt understand vaccination probably isn't going to be the most well informed teacher.

It has the potential to introduce a subclass of kids who are unvaccinated AND poorly educated. Given that these will not be distributed randomly(neither antivaxxers nor homeschooling really are), they have the potential to be a place where a disease could initially spread rapidly.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby mathmannix » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
morriswalters wrote: Do you send your children to the playground before age one? Did you get your children vaccinated at 12 months?
No, not until they are vaccinated. No, you get your child vaccinated according to this schedule, so, MMR at 6mo. But bringing your kid out and about before they are vaccinated is fine because herd immunity is a thing. Unless it isn't... in which case... you get angry at parents who are deliberately leaving snakes everywhere they go.

The reason for that schedule, the reason that children don't get vaccines before that schedule, is that they are protected by their mothers' immunity (assuming she had gotten all her vaccines) before that point. For example, the yearly influenza shot is recommended at 6 months or later, but pregnant women are told to get flu shots, which they pass on to their babies and are thus good for a year from that point. So, babies are protected and yes, can go to playgrounds before age 1. Not because of "herd immunity", but because of actual, vaccination-induced immunity.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:29 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:
morriswalters wrote: But what you want and what you might get are two very different things. While you are fighting a significant fight that involves entrenched belief systems, others will be practicing the art of the achievable, which is occasionally called politics.


So your political philosophy is "pick the low-hanging fruit then give up?"
Nope. But I do try to accomplish one goal before moving on to the next. The question you have to ask is what gets me to the goal I am trying to reach? Watch California, some legislators are going to try and close the loophole in the current law. If they can't do that then your idea won't have a snowballs chance in hell.

As a personal statement, this is why Democrats have been marginalized. They tend to take an all or nothing position without realizing that you can't go where the people aren't ready to follow. It is a sad truth that this particular outbreak is probably a good thing, since helicopter parents will rise up in indignation and socially stigmatize antivaxxers. Which in the end will lead to were it is you want to go.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:33 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:As a personal statement, this is why Democrats have been marginalized. They tend to take an all or nothing position without realizing that you can't go where the people aren't ready to follow. It is a sad truth that this particular outbreak is probably a good thing, since helicopter parents will rise up in indignation and socially stigmatize antivaxxers. Which in the end will lead to were it is you want to go.


'snot just a Democrat thing. Any party has it's share of hardliners that get out of touch with average folk. The Republicans have surely had folk like this as well.

But in this case, the majority is pro-vaccination. Pretty solidly so. Anti-vaxxers are not average, and thus, this is not some unacheivable extreme liberal thing. Hell, vaccination isn't even really a liberal thing. Anti-vaxxers are a fringe on both sides, and both sides are pretty overwelmingly in favor of vaccination in general.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

morris, I feel like your little soap box is getting very strange here. You're seemingly just arguing many points for the sake of disagreeing, and drawing connections that are tenuous at best.

This isn't a political issue, this is a public health issue. Republicans and Democrats alike should both be interested in 'maximizing public health', though if you're going to make the argument about who stands for freedom, I urge you to explore examples of how each party voted for various public health issues. For example, since it's so clearly about encouraging as much freedom as possible, explain why Republicans vote so heavily against legalizing abortions in various ways. Or which party voted for mandatory car seat laws.

Respectfully, I think you're intentionally distracting from the issue at hand here to make various political statements, and I don't think that's helpful.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Whizbang » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:07 pm UTC


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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:12 pm UTC

I homeschooled my kids until they were high school, mainly for academic and social reasons, but also because one kid was sick all the time, and homeschooling allowed us to still conduct "school days" while waiting to see doctors, which we spent a LOT of our time doing.

Both girls received a full course of all recommended vaccines, with two exceptions. My medically fragile daughter's pediatrician thought it would be too risky for her to receive her second MMR dose, but an MMR titer (blood test to check for appropriate antibodies) showed that her immunity was adequate, which made the second dose unnecessary anyway. Also, I also decided in the early 2000's, against the same pediatrician's advice, not to give the sickly kid the pneumococcal vaccine, because I had concerns about the PCV7 vaccine (introduced in 2000); PCV7 has now been replaced with PCV13 (introduced in 2010), which eliminated my earlier doubts.

My daughter's cardiologist repeatedly warned us that the new DPT vaccine--although still a good idea, and we received it--was much less effective than the older (but less safe) one had been, so we should not assume that the fact that we'd been vaccinated would protect us if we came into contact with people with whooping cough (pertussis). When whooping cough started spreading through the local homeschooled population, we reduced our socializing and our shared educational activities to five other families, whose kids we knew were vaccinated. My daughters, who are both more social than I am, hated the isolation, but understood why our self-imposed quarantine was temporarily necessary.

Now that my older daughter has received a transplant, and her immune system has been dialed down to prevent her from attacking her new heart, she is at heightened risk for pathogens in general--including those for which she was previously vaccinated. Whooping cough and measles are particularly notorious for attacking post-transplant people who had been deemed immune pre-transplant. Plus, the vaccines aren't 100% effective. But both girls are loving public high school, so they are trying to educate those around them that, no, it is NOT socially acceptable to show up to school or work while you have the flu, etc.

I've long suspected that certain pathogens might make people more social, to facilitate transmission. But I digress.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:18 pm UTC

You're all over the place. It sounds like you're saying that yes, taking doctors recommendations is a good thing, but you disregarded your doctors recommendations a few times, but then went along with your doctors recommendations other times, and now your girls are in school and doing fine, even though one (both?) is (are?) immunocompromised. So... you must be pleased that other children are vaccinated!

Also, somewhat veiled plug for 'sick people might be more social and non-described or clearly expanded upon claim about something'?
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:33 pm UTC

I don't understand your combative tone, Izawwlgood. I'm saying:

1.) Not all homeschoolers are anti-vaxxers.

2.) Not all pro-vaxxers (which I consider myself to be) are blindly pro-vaxx. The pediatrician provided me with enough information to make an informed decision regarding the PCV7 vaccine, and the decision at which my husband and I arrived didn't happen to be the decision that the pediatrician would have made in our shoes. This was still a medical, not philosophical, decision.

3.) Yes, I am pleased when other kids are vaccinated, and am displeased when people show blatant disregard for others whose health may be more fragile than their own.

The infected-people-may-be-more-social tidbit was, as I noted, a digression, but I thought people might find it an interesting possibility that merits further research.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:39 pm UTC

I'm not being combative. I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying, and your clarification helped.

I don't think anyone is claiming all homeschoolers are antivax. I also don't think anyone is claiming provaxxers are blindly provax.

What we are pointing out is that if a child is unvaccinated and homeschooled, they are still both at risk, and a risk to the other people in the community.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:48 pm UTC

Ah. Sorry that my points got lost in my blather, and thanks for the prompt to clarify.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:49 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'm not being combative. I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying, and your clarification helped.

I don't think anyone is claiming all homeschoolers are antivax. I also don't think anyone is claiming provaxxers are blindly provax.

What we are pointing out is that if a child is unvaccinated and homeschooled, they are still both at risk, and a risk to the other people in the community.

Aren't unvaccinated people a risk period? Unless you're accounting for a synergistic effect that makes it riskier.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:55 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:This isn't a political issue, this is a public health issue.
You can't do this by fiat. The only way to achieve it is by the political process. Tobacco is still in use today in some form or another despite all the best efforts of science, with more than enough data to support its position. And it kills more people than measles. Thinking good thoughts isn't sufficient. However it isn't my task to make you see the world as I see it, I've given my opinion and supported it.


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