Thesh wrote:The difference is that Trump has ran entirely on hate, and is the most extreme authoritarian candidate in recent history. So why would a Libertarian support an extreme authoritarian? The only conclusion I can make is because he doesn't actually give a shit about human rights, and doesn't give a shit about freedom, and that he only gives a shit about himself - given the evidence, the only conclusion I can see is that he really does not care about anyone other than himself. What reason is there to support Trump other than bigotry or unabated self-interest? I don't see any.
*shrug* Lots of my friends are not Libertarians. It's pretty normal for us. Harder to isolate yourself into a social pool of like minded individuals when your team is maaaybe a few percent of the population.
So yeah, you make friends with people who have different values. That doesn't make you a monster.
And if you're going to look purely at issues, Libertarians have disagreements with both parties. So, he's not any more hypocritical or whatever you're fishing for than if he'd opted to endorse Clinton. Which, yknow, plenty of people did, and generally speaking, the right didn't flip their shit over that.
People didn't vote for Trump "for bigotry" any more than people voting for Clinton were voting for "email treason" or whatever shit the right says.
The Great Hippo wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:In that case, they are obviously deceiving you.
That is an extremely simple, extremely binary way to look at people. I think it's probably much more complex than "successful people who constantly say ignorant things are deceiving you".
In actuality, it's probably much more like "Successful people who constantly say ignorant things may be successful for complicated reasons".
Manipulating may be more accurate than deceiving.
I mean, sure, I get domain expertise, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about deception and/or manipulation with regards to Trump. He's a deal guy. He talks a lot, and he gets people to agree with him. 'swhat he does. Turns out, he's fairly good at it. He's not nearly so ignorant as he portrays himself. If someone is achieving amazing success, look for corresponding skills. There is a cause, even if it is not one you expect.
The Great Hippo wrote:quote="Tyndmyr"]Basically every "Trump hates transgender rights" argument boils down to association.
Pence is basically a traditional Republican on this, sure. Not great. But...normally, that's what you'd have in the President slot. Pence got slapped into the veep slot to reassure traditional Republicans, and maybe that's still upsetting to folks that it's necessary to do that...but it's still representing an improvement. People are acting as if we're somehow going to Hitler level death camps, but the actual evidence is that Trump isn't against Transgender rights at all, he simply happens to be in a party that is.
To be fair, Pence has supported gay conversion camps, which are, like... Not exactly Nazi death camps, but considering the violence, emotional harm, and suicide rates, seem like something Nazis would be pretty down with.
I mean, I'm not saying Pence is a Nazi, but supporting policies that literally kill gay children is... Uh okay, I actually don't even have a punchline here.[/quote]
Conversion camps are awful, yes. I've previously condemned them. I have bad news for you regarding Republican candidates, though. Most of them are lacking on gay rights. Trump is probably the best possible candidate for this issue in the party primaries. Yeah, he took on a veep that would appeal to the traditional people. That's what happens. But, the veep is a lot less important to the ticket than the president is.
Pence is basically your stock Republican suit, representing all the normal expected things for a Republican candidate. But the fact that that's relegated to the veep rather than the main guy is progress.
Ya'll remember that Biden was against gay marriage, yes? Literally the last Democratic veep. It came up in the vice presidential debates, even. Now sure, he changed as things went on, and he probably already had some sympathies, but the Democrats are not terribly far ahead of Republicans on LGBT issues. And people were not voting for Obama because they hated gay rights, were they?
Shit, there's probably more evidence for Clinton being anti-LGBT rights, historically, than there is for Trump.