Bundyite militia seizes federal building

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morriswalters
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:15 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:If the outcome you want is one with the minimum potential for future attacks, then nonviolent-but-slow does *not* provide a better outcome.
And you know that, how?

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:34 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
ucim wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote: if after 24 hours or so, the nonviolent option doesn't show good progress, the interest of preventing further attacks is served better by a quick-but-violent solution than a nonviolent-but-slow one.
Why? Especially when the nonviolent-but-slow one can provide a better outcome?


If the outcome you want is one with the minimum potential for future attacks, then nonviolent-but-slow does *not* provide a better outcome.

Is there a source for this?

For example, Singapore is draconian but the rule of law there is fairly decent with a functioning society. Maybe Edgar is thinking of the Russian insurgency, swift brutal violence eventually pacified the region. But that's a bad example.


There are a handful of papers I used to cite all the time around here that statistically analyzed terrorist events using the ITERATE (International Terrorism: Attributes of Terrorist Events) and KEDS/TABARI (actually, a method of data-point extraction from available text sources, like newspaper/media archives) datasets That showed this and a number of other interesting/novel conclusions. Unfortunately, the publicly-viewable links to the most relevant ones seem to have gone down, I'll try and track down new links, or failing that I've probably got the relevant papers saved somewhere. While I'm at it, may as well see if any more recent works on the subject are available as well.

For those interested in playing the home game, I think the specific paper I'm thinking of is "Transnational Terrorism: An Economic Analysis " by T. Sandler and W. Enders, but that might not be the right paper. I'll have to read through it again to make sure. There's also one by P. Brandt I used to cite a bunch you can probably find in my post history that might be the relevant one.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby ucim » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:39 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Singapore is draconian but the rule of law there is fairly decent
Singapore is not a society I would aspire to, even if the trains do run on time.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:46 pm UTC

How was the park takeover transnational terrorism? Or terrorism at all?

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:15 am UTC

ucim wrote:
sardia wrote:Singapore is draconian but the rule of law there is fairly decent
Singapore is not a society I would aspire to, even if the trains do run on time.

Jose


It's better than most. I would prefer the US/Europe/Australia to Singapore, but I'd prefer Singapore to nearly any Middle-Eastern, African, Carribean, most South American, and most South Asian countries. Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby ucim » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:52 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I would prefer the US/Europe/Australia to Singapore, but I'd prefer Singapore to nearly any Middle-Eastern, African, Carribean, most South American, and most South Asian countries. Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...
Seems to me that the problems with all those other countries is that they are run by skullcrackers. Perhaps unofficially, but making it official doesn't really make a difference. You're ch*rped if you disagree with the authorities in either case.

No thanks. I'll take here, and peaceful resolutions even if they take longer. It sends a message about the kind of world I want to live in.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Lazar » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:07 am UTC

I think it's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, causality-wise.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:13 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...


WTF?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Mambrino » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:13 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...


WTF?


I don't know if this is what CU was alluding to, but there's a theory that societies need to be run by brutal but fair, rule-of-law-abiding skullcrackers for a sufficient amount of time before you have reached a societal equilibrium point of "general trust in the law" and you can dispense with the skullcracking but the society will continue to run on its own steam.

However, it has an air of a just-so story.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Angua » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:50 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
ucim wrote:
sardia wrote:Singapore is draconian but the rule of law there is fairly decent
Singapore is not a society I would aspire to, even if the trains do run on time.

Jose


It's better than most. I would prefer the US/Europe/Australia to Singapore, but I'd prefer Singapore to nearly any Middle-Eastern, African, Carribean, most South American, and most South Asian countries. Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...
I don't know, lots of people keep saying that the only way to stop our crime problem is to bring back hanging, screw the international community. Personally, I think it's more that it's hard to speak out when there's not much anonymity (the police do their best with anonymous hotlines, but 60 000 is just not enough to hide in) - also the fact that there's just not that much to do there).

But please, do tell me all the nations in the Caribbean that are currently run by these 'skullcrackers' as we so rightly deserve.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:11 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...

So I'm genuinely curious, have you ever lived under the rule of "skullcrackers?" Did you actually prefer it? Would you wish it on people you know and care about?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:23 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I suppose this is fruitless to ask, but what has the militarization of the police have to do with the Bundy's? The protests and the government's response were open to anybody and everybody, it was heavily covered by the press. When push came to shove the Bundys did the smart thing and gave it up without violence. If Pincus had stayed put there would have been no fatalities at all. The elder Bundy came out to where an arrest could be made without the benefit of a shootout. Overall, all things considered, it turned out pretty well. I'm not sure that it could have been handled better. Even with the acquittals.
sardia wrote:My counter argument is that society is just fine with horrific violence... As long as it's kept sorta under the table and directed at minorities.
Yeah, we love drones and airstrikes.


It's relevant in that previous situations have been handled with more violence, and some folks are suggesting that this is a good thing. Plus, yknow, parallels to the Standing Rock situation.

Personally, I'm happy that the Bundy situation was low violence. I think they could have done better with the vehicle confrontation, but if we're comparing to Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc, this is leagues superior.

ucim wrote:
sardia wrote:Singapore is draconian but the rule of law there is fairly decent
Singapore is not a society I would aspire to, even if the trains do run on time.

Jose


This. I think there's a value to not killing people or punishing them ridiculously severely. Even among ways that get good results, I'd prefer the least violent way that achieves good results.

The main value of having a government and civilization is for the minimization of violence. Being able to do productive things instead of fighting for one's life against some tin pot dictator is exactly why we prefer governments over anarchy. Keeping lots of violence, but labeling it as okay because it's all being done by the government is...not really an answer.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:30 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...

So I'm genuinely curious, have you ever lived under the rule of "skullcrackers?" Did you actually prefer it? Would you wish it on people you know and care about?


Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING in the world in the past 15 years? At all? We removed the skullcrackers in Iraq. WHOOPS! We helped topple the skullcrackers in Libya. OOOPS! We were trying to take out the skullcrackers in Syria. OH MY!

Here, let me explain Egypt to you. Mubarak was hated by the general public as a Western-backed dictator. The police often knocked heads, which didn't endear them to the public. Then the revolution happened, and the police disappeared, which made living there a (temporary) hell. The only thing worse than brutal police is no police.

Having an honest and friendly police force requires that A) you collect enough taxes to pay them enough so they aren't forced into extortion, B) you have years of tradition for the police to "uphold", C) you have a functioning press that can investigate police corruption D) you have a good public education system, and (most importantly) E) you have had decades of public health campaigns like iodine fortification or lead removal or food stamps or public vaccinations, without which your population is literally retarded. Note that most of these are directly related to a country's ability to afford such stuff. Corruption prevents the economy from growing, but the lack of the economy means the country can't get rid of the corruption.

When you start from nothing, and by "nothing" I don't mean "a bunch of affluent suburban kids in a giant empty space" but "subsistence farmers, uneducated, suffering from massive malnutrition and disease problems", first you need a bunch of death squads keeping everyone in line. Once the country is stabilized, brutally, you bring in the sweatshops. You use the meager income to provide the most basic of health programs, to get rid of malnutrition and easily curable diseases. This makes your workers more valuable, and more lucrative sweatshops open up. Then you use that money to provide rudimentary education. This enables you to both recruit government employees that aren't complete shit and have workers capable of doing more than the most rudimentary of tasks. Now you can replace your death squads with skullcrackers. You then keep investing in public health and education programs, you have a legal system that slowly develops, you have new industries such as tourism slowly open up, and you play "catchup" with the industrialized world, and then you eventually have a country that isn't the butt of all jokes.

This is what China did, this is what Vietnam is doing now. Hell, this is exactly what we did to modernize South Korea; do you honestly think that Korea was anything but a hellhole until at least the 70's? Turns out that a lot of the seedy but brutally necessary actions were covered up because it wasn't photogenic. The result has been a public that is seriously underinformed about the brutality of the world, and then you end up with fools who truly thought we could help the poor oppressed Iraqis just yearning to be free by eliminating not only Saddam but every competent government worker he had (seriously, should not have banned every Ba'athist from government work, should never have disbanded the Republican Guard).

Do you know that Iraq did stabilize and start to improve in 2008? We did that by literally bringing back the death squads via the "Awakening Councils", aka "the troop surge". Many of the people fighting us were mostly poor Sunni mercenaries paid by Iran and Syria, mostly made up of former soldiers. So we bought them up. Before, whenever we went into a home of a suspected insurgent, the women would cry; because Americans hated hearing women cry. But when the soldiers were accompanied by the awakening council, there was no women crying at all. Just the men, because they knew what happened next. The soldiers would then leave, some gunshots would be heard, and it worked. So then what happened? Well, the death squads weren't going to win prom king anytime soon, and the Iraqi government broke the cardinal rule of warfare; always pay the mercenaries. So... yeah, went to shit. In the meantime, Syria and Iran had been funding a bunch of different Shia groups (plural intentionally, so they could never unify) as well as the original various Sunni groups. Then Syria has its own troubles, and several of those Sunni groups bite Syria in the ass, and well...

Someone asked me why I had such a brutal view of the world and why I no longer held strong idealistic views. Well, now you know.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:37 pm UTC

Of course brutality works for the person in power. Until they lose it, anyways.

That's not the point.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:09 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Personally, I'm happy that the Bundy situation was low violence. I think they could have done better with the vehicle confrontation, but if we're comparing to Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc, this is leagues superior.
I guess you get better with practice, which is why this one ended better I suppose.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Weeks » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:13 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...

So I'm genuinely curious, have you ever lived under the rule of "skullcrackers?" Did you actually prefer it? Would you wish it on people you know and care about?


Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING in the world in the past 15 years? At all? We removed the skullcrackers in Iraq. WHOOPS! We helped topple the skullcrackers in Libya. OOOPS! We were trying to take out the skullcrackers in Syria. OH MY!

Here, let me explain Egypt to you. Mubarak was hated by the general public as a Western-backed dictator. The police often knocked heads, which didn't endear them to the public. Then the revolution happened, and the police disappeared, which made living there a (temporary) hell. The only thing worse than brutal police is no police.

Having an honest and friendly police force requires that A) you collect enough taxes to pay them enough so they aren't forced into extortion, B) you have years of tradition for the police to "uphold", C) you have a functioning press that can investigate police corruption D) you have a good public education system, and (most importantly) E) you have had decades of public health campaigns like iodine fortification or lead removal or food stamps or public vaccinations, without which your population is literally retarded. Note that most of these are directly related to a country's ability to afford such stuff. Corruption prevents the economy from growing, but the lack of the economy means the country can't get rid of the corruption.

When you start from nothing, and by "nothing" I don't mean "a bunch of affluent suburban kids in a giant empty space" but "subsistence farmers, uneducated, suffering from massive malnutrition and disease problems", first you need a bunch of death squads keeping everyone in line. Once the country is stabilized, brutally, you bring in the sweatshops. You use the meager income to provide the most basic of health programs, to get rid of malnutrition and easily curable diseases. This makes your workers more valuable, and more lucrative sweatshops open up. Then you use that money to provide rudimentary education. This enables you to both recruit government employees that aren't complete shit and have workers capable of doing more than the most rudimentary of tasks. Now you can replace your death squads with skullcrackers. You then keep investing in public health and education programs, you have a legal system that slowly develops, you have new industries such as tourism slowly open up, and you play "catchup" with the industrialized world, and then you eventually have a country that isn't the butt of all jokes.

This is what China did, this is what Vietnam is doing now. Hell, this is exactly what we did to modernize South Korea; do you honestly think that Korea was anything but a hellhole until at least the 70's? Turns out that a lot of the seedy but brutally necessary actions were covered up because it wasn't photogenic. The result has been a public that is seriously underinformed about the brutality of the world, and then you end up with fools who truly thought we could help the poor oppressed Iraqis just yearning to be free by eliminating not only Saddam but every competent government worker he had (seriously, should not have banned every Ba'athist from government work, should never have disbanded the Republican Guard).

Do you know that Iraq did stabilize and start to improve in 2008? We did that by literally bringing back the death squads via the "Awakening Councils", aka "the troop surge". Many of the people fighting us were mostly poor Sunni mercenaries paid by Iran and Syria, mostly made up of former soldiers. So we bought them up. Before, whenever we went into a home of a suspected insurgent, the women would cry; because Americans hated hearing women cry. But when the soldiers were accompanied by the awakening council, there was no women crying at all. Just the men, because they knew what happened next. The soldiers would then leave, some gunshots would be heard, and it worked. So then what happened? Well, the death squads weren't going to win prom king anytime soon, and the Iraqi government broke the cardinal rule of warfare; always pay the mercenaries. So... yeah, went to shit. In the meantime, Syria and Iran had been funding a bunch of different Shia groups (plural intentionally, so they could never unify) as well as the original various Sunni groups. Then Syria has its own troubles, and several of those Sunni groups bite Syria in the ass, and well...

Someone asked me why I had such a brutal view of the world and why I no longer held strong idealistic views. Well, now you know.
I don't think you answered the question though. Have you ever lived under the rule of "skullcrackers?"
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:17 pm UTC

Has there ever been a skullcracking regime without high poverty rates? Because it doesn't seem like it's necessary in the world, it seems like it's only necessary to stay rich and powerful while your citizens struggle to survive.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:25 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Some places need to be run by skullcrackers...

So I'm genuinely curious, have you ever lived under the rule of "skullcrackers?" Did you actually prefer it? Would you wish it on people you know and care about?

Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING in the world in the past 15 years? At all? We removed the skullcrackers in Iraq. WHOOPS! We helped topple the skullcrackers in Libya. OOOPS! We were trying to take out the skullcrackers in Syria. OH MY!

Funny how that's not any kind of an answer to the question.

But hey, as long as you personally don't have to live with it, it's terrific, right?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:33 pm UTC

In some trivial sense, I suppose, such as when such a regime takes over from a less violent one.

That said, there does seem to be a very predictable trajectory for where they end up. Excessive violence isn't merely a result of poverty, it definitely causes it. Everyone out cracking skulls isn't providing constructive goods and services, plus there's the chap who got his skull cracked, plus whoever has to care for that cracked skull...violence is very costly if humans are expensive resources that you invest into.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Zamfir » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:45 pm UTC


CorruptUser, I don't know if you do it on purpose or not, but there is a trollish pattern to some of your comments. You start with a Slatepitchy comment that has almost nothing to do with the OT. If no one bites , you make another. When someone bites, you wade in deep and start expanding on your personal controversial topic du jour.

It doesn't help that your favourite topic is 'shifty wogs need to suffer for their own good'. But even with any other topic, it's still annoying. It's deliberate attention grabbing and thread derailing. Don't do that.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:13 pm UTC

:
Thesh wrote:Has there ever been a skullcracking regime without high poverty rates? Because it doesn't seem like it's necessary in the world, it seems like it's only necessary to stay rich and powerful while your citizens struggle to survive.

China, Singapore. Russia. Saudi. Qatar.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:17 pm UTC

Is...is that sarcasm?

Because places like Quatar kind of have modern day slavery. They're just migrants, not citizens. But they're still there, and extremely poor.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:27 pm UTC

Also, Saudi Arabia has a lot of well-off foreign workers (2/3rds of those employed are foreign workers), but among actual citizens there is a lot of poverty. Can't speak for the current situations in China, Singapore, and Russia, but China and Russia until relatively recently had very high poverty rates.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:44 pm UTC

Sorry Zamfir. Wasn't aware of that.

Back to topic...

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:22 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Sorry Zamfir. Wasn't aware of that.

Back to topic...

Is that a different acquittal? Because that's superficially bullshit. The article is again very lacking in details, which irritates me

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:24 pm UTC

It's a video on the beeb. The 'article' is just a brief description.

Their actual article on it is here.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It's a video on the beeb. The 'article' is just a brief description.

Their actual article on it is here.

Didn't we already post this days ago? I find it disconcerting that the desire to avoid walking into a nest of armed militias was seen as proof that no crime was committed.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:00 am UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/pol ... ding-rock/

Indians demonstrate what happens to protestors without guns, or without white privilege. I still disagree that it's entirely due to their lack of arms. I'm surprised that Indians get abused more than blacks and Hispanics.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Carlington » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:41 am UTC

I can't find an actual source for this right now, but I remember seeing that globally, indigenous and first nations people face the worst racial discrimination of any race or ethnicity.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:41 pm UTC

sardia wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/police-violence-against-native-americans-goes-far-beyond-standing-rock/

Indians demonstrate what happens to protestors without guns, or without white privilege. I still disagree that it's entirely due to their lack of arms. I'm surprised that Indians get abused more than blacks and Hispanics.


Well, yes. It's not fair, even if you consider the situation entirely apart from firearms. However, I do believe that the "we're clearly harmless" is a really poor protection from police abuses. It keeps being tried, but it has a pretty rough track record if you stop to think about it.

But, yeah, arming up isn't an easy answer. A large show of force might deter police, but getting there is hard. A small show is seen as a challenge, and a justification of further brutality. Half measures don't work.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:58 pm UTC

Non-violent resistance is more about gaining public support than defending against police. You can put people with guns out there, but eventually it will turn really bad, and police tactics will just get more brutal in response.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Non-violent resistance is more about gaining public support than defending against police. You can put people with guns out there, but eventually it will turn really bad, and police tactics will just get more brutal in response.


I mean, what dya think will happen eventually anyways? It's not as if police are actually restrained in any way by the protestors being non violent.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:59 pm UTC

Police are restrained by the public, which there is a limit to what the public will accept. If protestors are armed, it is a lot easier to justify lethal force. If they are unarmed, then it requires a lot more propaganda.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:14 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Police are restrained by the public, which there is a limit to what the public will accept. If protestors are armed, it is a lot easier to justify lethal force. If they are unarmed, then it requires a lot more propaganda.

If the police are restrained by the public but the public is racists, then what? They'll have preferential reactions to protestors depending on their race or creed/culture. Then it doesn't really matter how armed or unarmed they are.

Tyndmyr, it worked sorta during the civil rights era. The whole point of the nonviolent movement was to gain sympathies of white elites by showing well dressed blacks being brutally beaten. In fact, Martin Luther was upset when some police kept things civil. It meant that their protests didn't get coverage or sympathy.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:38 pm UTC

Yes, if the public is sufficiently racist, and obviously we are willing to tolerate a lot, but Americans are generally able to draw the line at indiscriminate slaughter of unarmed civilians.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:16 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Police are restrained by the public, which there is a limit to what the public will accept. If protestors are armed, it is a lot easier to justify lethal force. If they are unarmed, then it requires a lot more propaganda.


How, exactly, are they restrained?

I mean, yeah, they dislike bad publicity to some degree, but in practice, police often do seem to get away with even killings that are widely accepted as terrible. Quite frequently without even a trial or what not.

The strategy seems like awfully thin protection in practice.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:28 pm UTC

Restrained != absolutely no violence. Back in the old days, police would open fire on union protestors, but the public stopped accepting it for the most part, and these days they stick with less lethal weapons (not perfect, but not nearly as bad as it has been in the past or is elsewhere).
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:41 pm UTC

Those were hardly non-violent on the part of union folks. Literally a war, in some cases.

It wasn't a war that was won by simply suffering long enough until the public came to the rescue. It was straight up conflict.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:55 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Those were hardly non-violent on the part of union folks. Literally a war, in some cases.

It wasn't a war that was won by simply suffering long enough until the public came to the rescue. It was straight up conflict.

Those old days examples don't really apply now. Even the rabbid militia members were insistent about how peaceful and mindful of self defense they are. It's not like they went into a clock tower and shot everyone in sight to prove their point.
What you're suggesting is for minorities, to secretly run weapons into a public building/venue en masse, in order to stage a protest. Has anyone not white tried that recently? Closest I can think of is open carry in Texas Marches.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:57 pm UTC

Sure, it's a little different nowadays. And I'm not actually advocating that they shoot people. That *would* cause reactions....

I just observe that police are notably more polite to protestors that possess more firepower than they do. Even if we disregard race, and look at how police treat white protestors, there's no shortage of examples of causal police violence towards protestors that do not actually pose a threat.

In some respects, access to weaponry is still a very obvious source of power. The police having lots of it, and the protesters not is a sort of imbalance. Now, I'd suggest that they be scrupulously careful to abide by every law if they were having an armed protest, but I think it'd change the balance of power significantly if they were at least roughly on par with police. And ethically, there's nothing wrong with them being prepared to defend themselves. Perfectly legal to defend yourself against unwarranted attacks. Even if it's a cop initiating it.


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