scalia dead

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:34 pm UTC

Even if Obama's nomination got moving, the GOP still has a majority vote against the guy. And filibuster powers. I believe the GOP is avoiding going through the motions in order to save face politically and avoid having it on the record. I'm not sure I agree with the theory behind it but the power the GOP has can only be answered at the ballot box. (a voter revolt would also work, but GOP voters agree with McConnell).

Cphite, as I recall, the Democrats let Roberts into scotus. I'm curious if Obama's is gonna hit back by withdrawing Garland if the election turns out in the Democrats favor. h Obama will probably want his stamp on the nomination even though it's more valuable to let Hillary nominate someone younger and more liberal. Selfish legacy building will probably outweigh a stronger liberal bloc.

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:11 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Even if Obama's nomination got moving, the GOP still has a majority vote against the guy. And filibuster powers. I believe the GOP is avoiding going through the motions in order to save face politically and avoid having it on the record.


Partly. The GOP has resolved not to give Obama another SCOTUS appointment. If they vote down Garland, Obama will nominate someone else and the process repeats - along with renewed media attention. If they simply stonewall Garland until Obama is gone, the end result is the same but less media attention.

I'm not sure I agree with the theory behind it but the power the GOP has can only be answered at the ballot box. (a voter revolt would also work, but GOP voters agree with McConnell).


Most voters who lean republican either agree or don't care; and most voters who lean democrat and do care, wouldn't vote republican anyway.

Cphite, as I recall, the Democrats let Roberts into scotus.


Yes; it's actually pretty normal for the Senate and President to be on opposing parties when one is appointed.

I'm curious if Obama's is gonna hit back by withdrawing Garland if the election turns out in the Democrats favor.


It's entirely possible. The main reason I think he won't is his vanity - withdrawing Garland makes it seem (correctly) that Garland wasn't his real choice anyway.

Obama will probably want his stamp on the nomination even though it's more valuable to let Hillary nominate someone younger and more liberal. Selfish legacy building will probably outweigh a stronger liberal bloc.


Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby morriswalters » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:03 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Partly. The GOP has resolved not to give Obama another SCOTUS appointment. If they vote down Garland, Obama will nominate someone else and the process repeats - along with renewed media attention. If they simply stonewall Garland until Obama is gone, the end result is the same but less media attention.
A strategy built on capturing the White House. We'll see. Let the Democrats win the White House and the Senate(as unlikely as that may be) and McConnell's strategy is a big loser. I like a man who bets big.

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:21 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
cphite wrote:Partly. The GOP has resolved not to give Obama another SCOTUS appointment. If they vote down Garland, Obama will nominate someone else and the process repeats - along with renewed media attention. If they simply stonewall Garland until Obama is gone, the end result is the same but less media attention.
A strategy built on capturing the White House. We'll see. Let the Democrats win the White House and the Senate(as unlikely as that may be) and McConnell's strategy is a big loser. I like a man who bets big.


I think at least part of the idea is that they see Hillary as being a lot more moderate than Obama; they're hoping whoever she nominates will be as well.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:27 pm UTC

Hillary, more moderate than Obama?

She might be disliked rather more than Obama. Both are honestly pretty moderate compared to say, Bernie, but I don't think that any moderation on Hillary's part will translate into her being more popular with the Republicans.

Once they get past the primary, I'd expect the hatred to come out in force.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1787
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: scalia dead

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:44 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.



I always find it amusing that people trot out thing like this, yet look at Obama's approval rating versus that of the past two "do-nothing" Congresses.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -1044.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... l-903.html
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby morriswalters » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:53 pm UTC

cphite wrote:I think at least part of the idea is that they see Hillary as being a lot more moderate than Obama; they're hoping whoever she nominates will be as well.
I would say that might be wishful thinking on their part. They should be vetting the candidates, not the nominator. What they seem to be doing is hating on Obama and over filtering. But what do I know.

JudeMorrigan
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:26 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby JudeMorrigan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:01 pm UTC

cphite wrote:It's entirely possible. The main reason I think he won't is his vanity - withdrawing Garland makes it seem (correctly) that Garland wasn't his real choice anyway.

I don't think there's much evidence of this. Garland seems very much like an Obama sort of candidate to me.

cphite wrote:I think at least part of the idea is that they see Hillary as being a lot more moderate than Obama; they're hoping whoever she nominates will be as well.

Wait, you think Hillary would nominate someone *less* liberal than Garland? So ... you're saying they hope she'll nominate a Republican?

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
cphite wrote:Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.



I always find it amusing that people trot out thing like this, yet look at Obama's approval rating versus that of the past two "do-nothing" Congresses.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -1044.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... l-903.html

Pfft, I'd rate a dumpster fire higher than the GOP party. Obama does deserve credit, but remember who we are comparing it against.

I think the signs of a Hillary moderation would depend greatly on how strong the Democrats win in Congress. If she had to face GOP majorities, then she could pull a90s Bill Clinton and compromise. If she wins the Senate, then she could make Bernie look conservative.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3900
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: scalia dead

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:27 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Pfft, I'd rate a dumpster fire higher than the GOP party.


It's hard to say which has more incendiary rhetoric...

(I've had a long day and the thought of a dumpster fire occupying part of congressional chambers amuses me.)
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:29 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
cphite wrote:Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.



I always find it amusing that people trot out thing like this, yet look at Obama's approval rating versus that of the past two "do-nothing" Congresses.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -1044.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... l-903.html


I always find it amusing when people trot out random irrelevant facts in response to criticism of their favorite politicians.

What do his approval ratings relative to Congress have to do with his being (or not being) petulant?

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1787
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: scalia dead

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:36 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:
cphite wrote:Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.



I always find it amusing that people trot out thing like this, yet look at Obama's approval rating versus that of the past two "do-nothing" Congresses.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -1044.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... l-903.html


I always find it amusing when people trot out random irrelevant facts in response to criticism of their favorite politicians.

What do his approval ratings relative to Congress have to do with his being (or not being) petulant?


I hardly think its irrelevant. He is attempting (with very little success) in actually governing (i.e. doing the job he was elected to do) against a crew of people who just can't be bothered with it, and people actually notice. Calling him petulant when he is trying to do anything in the face of a group of politicians who refuse to even consider doing their job is disingenuous at best.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:39 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:
cphite wrote:It's entirely possible. The main reason I think he won't is his vanity - withdrawing Garland makes it seem (correctly) that Garland wasn't his real choice anyway.

I don't think there's much evidence of this. Garland seems very much like an Obama sort of candidate to me.


Garland is a slightly-left centrist. He's definitely more moderate than Sotomayor; a bit closer to Kagan. Garland was actually a fairly "safe" choice for Obama, and if he'd been nominated a year or so ago, he'd probably have been confirmed with (relatively) little resistance.

cphite wrote:I think at least part of the idea is that they see Hillary as being a lot more moderate than Obama; they're hoping whoever she nominates will be as well.

Wait, you think Hillary would nominate someone *less* liberal than Garland? So ... you're saying they hope she'll nominate a Republican?


Not a republican per say, but Hillary is a lot better at politicking than Obama; she'd appoint someone even closer to the middle.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: scalia dead

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:23 pm UTC

I wouldn't be surprised (in the not-certain-at-all future in which Mrs Clinton gets the promotion) if Hillary wouldn't want to find some way of cruelly twerking the noses of those that put Obama's appointment in stasis by actually arranging for a far more partisan candidate, and with the political momentum to overcome the objections.

I don't think she'll go out of her way to do this, though. Not at the expense of looking putative, at least in public. One other possibility is that she pushes through Obama's own candidate under her name, the primary objections of the opposition now being spent and no real reasons left to roadblock the appointment, but still causing something of a split lip to the more aggressive of the bullies in the issue.

But I say this from far over on the sidelines. And also prediction is hard. Especially about the future.

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:32 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
cphite wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:
cphite wrote:Obama will be remembered as one of the more petulant Presidents we've had.



I always find it amusing that people trot out thing like this, yet look at Obama's approval rating versus that of the past two "do-nothing" Congresses.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -1044.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... l-903.html


I always find it amusing when people trot out random irrelevant facts in response to criticism of their favorite politicians.

What do his approval ratings relative to Congress have to do with his being (or not being) petulant?


I hardly think its irrelevant. He is attempting (with very little success) in actually governing (i.e. doing the job he was elected to do) against a crew of people who just can't be bothered with it, and people actually notice. Calling him petulant when he is trying to do anything in the face of a group of politicians who refuse to even consider doing their job is disingenuous at best.


What you forget is that the people who are opposing him are, in no small part, doing the job that they were elected to do - that is, to oppose the president's agenda. The most consistent themes throughout the 2010 and 2012 midterm elections was opposition to stuff like The Affordable Care Act, immigration, spending - things that can be summarized (accurately or not) as the Obama Agenda. I get that a lot of folks consider the fact that he was re-elected to be some kind of affirmation - but between you and me, it had a lot more to do with the doofus that ran against him than anything.

The reason I call him petulant? Because time after time, when he faces opposition, his reaction is akin to stamping his feet and crying and complaining that he just isn't getting his way. He seems to believe (like many of his supporters) that Congress should simply rubber-stamp whatever he decides should happen. But that isn't how it works. Congress makes the laws, accepts the treaties and trade deals, and yes - approves the Supreme Court justices.

The fact that more people like him than they do Congress really doesn't change any of that. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't poll better than Congress.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby morriswalters » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:01 pm UTC

The doofus was the Republican of choice.

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: scalia dead

Postby freezeblade » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:02 pm UTC

cphite wrote:The fact that more people like him than they do Congress really doesn't change any of that. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't poll better than Congress.


Have you considered this to be less indicative of the president, and more indicative of the job congress is doing?
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
cphite wrote:The fact that more people like him than they do Congress really doesn't change any of that. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't poll better than Congress.


Have you considered this to be less indicative of the president, and more indicative of the job congress is doing?

Maybe cphite is saying the president should herd the congress he has, not fight for the congress he wants. I disagree but it's been done before. The idea seems quaint nowa days. I could easily reverse this argument and still get nowhere.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:13 pm UTC

cphite wrote:[Obama] seems to believe (like many of his supporters) that Congress should simply rubber-stamp whatever he decides should happen. But that isn't how it works. Congress makes the laws, accepts the treaties and trade deals, and yes - approves the Supreme Court justices.
Regarding SCOTUS, I'm not objecting to Congress not approving his choice. That is their prerogative. I'm objecting to them refusing to hold hearings in the first place. That's something different.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:59 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
cphite wrote:[Obama] seems to believe (like many of his supporters) that Congress should simply rubber-stamp whatever he decides should happen. But that isn't how it works. Congress makes the laws, accepts the treaties and trade deals, and yes - approves the Supreme Court justices.
Regarding SCOTUS, I'm not objecting to Congress not approving his choice. That is their prerogative. I'm objecting to them refusing to hold hearings in the first place. That's something different.

Jose


Not really. They're not legally mandated to hold hearings. And it's not as if the results will be any different if they do.

Are you ACTUALLY upset that they're not doing pointless busy work, or are you just tired of the endless factional bickering?

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:30 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:And it's not as if the results will be any different if they do.

Are you ACTUALLY upset that they're not doing pointless busy work, or are you just tired of the endless factional bickering?
I'm not convinced the results would be identical. For one thing, in pretending to have discussions, they might actually have discussions; I don't think the entire party is opposed. My suspicion is that it's one faction bullying the other faction, and it being too high a potential wall to bother climbing. For another thing, it would also keep their obstructionism in the forefront, rather than the ignorable background.

As to what I'm upset about, it's the childish nature of their governance. (I'd be upset about it no matter what side I was on.) Yes, childishness can be effective; look at Tronald. But the result of childishness can be quite scary. Look at Tronald.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:And it's not as if the results will be any different if they do.

Are you ACTUALLY upset that they're not doing pointless busy work, or are you just tired of the endless factional bickering?
I'm not convinced the results would be identical. For one thing, in pretending to have discussions, they might actually have discussions; I don't think the entire party is opposed. My suspicion is that it's one faction bullying the other faction, and it being too high a potential wall to bother climbing. For another thing, it would also keep their obstructionism in the forefront, rather than the ignorable background.

As to what I'm upset about, it's the childish nature of their governance. (I'd be upset about it no matter what side I was on.) Yes, childishness can be effective; look at Tronald. But the result of childishness can be quite scary. Look at Tronald.

Jose


You're hoping that you can trick the republicans into all working together on accident? Ha. Your optimism is adorable.

No, the factionalism is huge, and well ingrained. There isn't a large contingent of republicans who really, really want to work with the democrats. They ALL pretty much are deeply divided with the democrats, they just also disagree with each other.

As for the PR aspect...they are not obligated to conduct their obstructionism in the manner most convenient to their opposition. Expecting that they will seems silly.

Trump ain't childish, exactly. That diminishes his threat. I think he's quite intelligent, and understands exactly what he's doing, and is doing so deliberately. Is he a terrible person? Sure. But that doesn't make him a child.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

Tyndmyr, there's a downside to the acceptance of previously uncouth behavior. For example, while the GOP leadership felt pressure to stop shutting down the government, there was no political consequence for doing so. (Base and independents didn't vote them out during mid terms). Based on your argument, the GOP should shut down the government again. It nominally reduces spending, cuts into services for the poor, inhibits the IRS from collecting taxes from the rich, and sticks it to Obama.

PS just because the GOP doesn't want the nomination to be a big deal, doesn't mean the opposition is required to oblige. That's would be equally silly. Aren't you pushing your own agenda here when you keep insisting that action xyz by the GOP is mundane, but action ABC by the opposition is beyond the pale*?

* we're getting kinda meta here. Meta politics. =.=

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:17 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Trump ain't childish, exactly.
Trump is a very intelligent person who behaves childishly in order to curry favor among (childish) Americans and get elected. For that he's extremely dangerous, as it subverts the intellect in his followers while it harnesses the childish hate inside them.

And yes, I'm hoping I can trick the republicans into working just a little bit better. I'm not under the delusion of puppies and rainbows, but removing the opportunity to work together is a good way to ensure that they do not. I think it shows insecurity to do so. This tells me that there are some who actually would prefer to hold hearings, but are being prevented from doing so.

This has the additional consequence of cementing this as acceptable lawmaking.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:07 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Trump ain't childish, exactly.
Trump is a very intelligent person who behaves childishly in order to curry favor among (childish) Americans and get elected. For that he's extremely dangerous, as it subverts the intellect in his followers while it harnesses the childish hate inside them.


I think trying to redefine hate as childishness is ridiculous.

Adults can and do hate all the time.

And yes, I'm hoping I can trick the republicans into working just a little bit better. I'm not under the delusion of puppies and rainbows, but removing the opportunity to work together is a good way to ensure that they do not. I think it shows insecurity to do so. This tells me that there are some who actually would prefer to hold hearings, but are being prevented from doing so.

This has the additional consequence of cementing this as acceptable lawmaking.

Jose


I think you've got a poor chain of logic there. I don't think they fear a hearing turning out wrong. They just have absolutely nothing to gain from holding a hearing. Why put effort and publicity into something that doesn't further your ends, when you can win by just doing nothing?

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:21 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I think trying to redefine hate as childishness is ridiculous.
That's not what I'm doing. Being unable to control oneself due to hate that is based on petty things is what is childish.
Tyndmyr wrote:...They just have absolutely nothing to gain from holding a hearing...
They have decided this even before looking at the thing they would be holding the hearing about. That is childish.

Effective? Yeah. But still childish. And the fact that childishness is effective is disturbing.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I think trying to redefine hate as childishness is ridiculous.
That's not what I'm doing. Being unable to control oneself due to hate that is based on petty things is what is childish.
Tyndmyr wrote:...They just have absolutely nothing to gain from holding a hearing...
They have decided this even before looking at the thing they would be holding the hearing about. That is childish.

Effective? Yeah. But still childish. And the fact that childishness is effective is disturbing.

Jose


Obviously, they decided that they had nothing to gain from holding a hearing before holding a hearing. How do you think politics happen? By the time of the actual hearing, most minds are already made up. The dog and pony show is for the public's benefit, not for them to become informed.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:By the time of the actual hearing, most minds are already made up. The dog and pony show is for the public's benefit, not for them to become informed.
And that is what is wrong with politics. The fact that it happens this way does not make it a Good Thing. I'm just saying that it's a Bad Thing.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:06 pm UTC

You can't actually change that by having more pointless hearings, though.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6405
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: scalia dead

Postby ucim » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:You can't actually change that by having more pointless hearings, though.
I think you can. It makes it harder to say "nyah nyah nyah I can't HEAR you!".

For that matter, trials are often pointless. We know the guy's guilty; there's video, cop's testimony, eyewitnesses, and he's black and muslim to boot. Why waste taxpayer's money on some dog and pony show when you can just hang him and be done with it.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:44 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:You can't actually change that by having more pointless hearings, though.
I think you can. It makes it harder to say "nyah nyah nyah I can't HEAR you!".


Republicans are not claiming that they don't know what Obama wants. They are simply bitterly opposed to democratic goals. It isn't due to ignorance of them, and there's not even a pretense of that, really.

For that matter, trials are often pointless. We know the guy's guilty; there's video, cop's testimony, eyewitnesses, and he's black and muslim to boot. Why waste taxpayer's money on some dog and pony show when you can just hang him and be done with it.

Jose


Criminal trials are very different from congressional hearings, yknow...you think a standard of evidence is required to pass a law, or confirm an appointment?

cphite
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby cphite » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:55 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
cphite wrote:The fact that more people like him than they do Congress really doesn't change any of that. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't poll better than Congress.


Have you considered this to be less indicative of the president, and more indicative of the job congress is doing?


There are a lot of factors. The president is an individual person; Congress is a body made up of many people, most of whom your average poll subject couldn't name if their life depended on it. The president gets a lot more opportunity to speak for himself. There is a certain level of esteem towards the office of the presidency that isn't there for Congress.

But all that aside, my point was that his poll numbers have nothing to do with my calling him petulant. I was referring to the way he responds to opposition and criticism; not his popularity. It's entirely possible for someone to be petulant and popular.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby morriswalters » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:18 pm UTC

cphite wrote: I was referring to the way he responds to opposition and criticism; not his popularity. It's entirely possible for someone to be petulant and popular.
It's an ad hominem attack. Which is pretty much how its gone for the last eight years. What does it have to do with anything? It's like questioning his place of birth, his religion, his patriotism, or the numerous other things he's been called or accused of. Congress is unpopular because they don't do much, individual legislators are much more popular or they couldn't get re-elected.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:03 am UTC

Not all cases seem to be deadlocked.

The SCOTUS just heard a case with regards to privacy rights and drunk driving.

And the Justices are allegedly amused at the arguments that were laid out. On the side of the drunk drivers: the poor lawyer has a duty to represent all of his clients, so he had to argue that blood tests AND a Breathalyzer were both violations of a person's privacy, and are therefore violations of the 4th Amendment.

Rothfeld must defend all his clients, so he has to say that a breath test is “a significant intrusion on personal integrity” and a search of “deep-lung air,” which is apparently very intimate air indeed. But it’s pretty clear that the court will write off the Breathalyzer issue as a reasonable search incident to arrest, leaving only the blood test on the table.


A simple enough argument, although absurd. It sounds like the high court is going to ignore that argument, although they seemed agreeable to the Blood test issue.

On the other side however, North Dakota's lawyers were very poorly prepared.

I will spare you the bulk of Keena’s outrageously bumbling performance, but I must share this closing colloquy. When Sotomayor gives Keena a brutally frank summary of her untenable position, Keena does not respond.

“Justice Sotomayor is assuming that you’re going to lose,” Alito quips, filling the silence. “So she wants to know what your reaction is to that.”

All the justices laugh hysterically, including Sotomayor, who looks down the bench at Alito with a fond grin. Keena stays absolutely stone-faced.


When the conservative justices like Justice Alito are making fun of your argument and laughing with Justice Sotomayor (a rather liberal justice), you know you failed.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:27 pm UTC

In fairness, demanding blood does seem kind of like an intrusion. I agree that the argument for a breathalyzer seems really weak, but yeah, the blood test aspect seems extremely reasonable.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: scalia dead

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:In fairness, demanding blood does seem kind of like an intrusion. I agree that the argument for a breathalyzer seems really weak, but yeah, the blood test aspect seems extremely reasonable.


Oh yeah. Just pointing out that an 8-0 decision may actually be incoming... which I find amusing.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: scalia dead

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:In fairness, demanding blood does seem kind of like an intrusion. I agree that the argument for a breathalyzer seems really weak, but yeah, the blood test aspect seems extremely reasonable.

The thing is that blood tests are more reliable than breathalyzer tests. But that's simple enough to solve.

Require the breathalyzer test. If it comes back positive, give people the right to ask for a blood test for confirmation. If they don't take the blood test, the result of the breathalyzer stands.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
HES
Posts: 4868
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm UTC
Location: England

Re: scalia dead

Postby HES » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:18 pm UTC

...so, exactly how it works in the UK?
He/Him/His Image

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9967
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: scalia dead

Postby addams » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:38 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Trump ain't childish, exactly.
Trump is a very intelligent person who behaves childishly in order to curry favor among (childish) Americans and get elected. For that he's extremely dangerous, as it subverts the intellect in his followers while it harnesses the childish hate inside them.
Jose

I think that is well stated.

cphite wrote:
But all that aside, my point was that his poll numbers have nothing to do with my calling him petulant.
I was referring to the way he responds to opposition and criticism; not his popularity.
It's entirely possible for someone to be petulant and popular.

Yes.
Trump is.

Mr. Obama has done an admirable job retaining his dignity.
This has been a dangerous and difficult eight years for him.
For him and his family, I am glad his contract is nearly over.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests