British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:55 pm UTC

Brexit could be followed by Grexit, dePartugal, Italeave, Chekout, Outstria, Finnish, Latervia and Byegium. Looks like only Romainia will stay.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Derek » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:02 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Brexit could be followed by Grexit, dePartugal, Italeave, Chekout, Outstria, Finnish, Latervia and Byegium. Looks like only Romainia will stay.

I've seen this like half a dozen times today. Though Romainia (or Remainia, I think that sounds better) is new.
Last edited by Derek on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lazar » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:12 pm UTC

Don't forget Scramdinavia.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:21 pm UTC

https://twitter.com/GoogleTrends/status ... wsrc%5Etfw

Somehow this doesn't surprise me.

Google announcing that AFTER the votes closed, the top google questions in UK were

1. What does it mean to leave the EU
2. What is the EU
3. Which countries are in the EU
4. What will happen now we've left the EU
5. How many countries are in the EU?

These sorts of questions... should have been asked... oh I dunno... maybe two days ago.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:24 pm UTC

You are forgetting all the islands and such.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:28 am UTC

You know, I think if the EU spins this right, they could turn it into a positive:

The UK has always been a very iffy EU member. Even with Remain it was seeking a deal that would keep it a bit more separate than the rest of the Union. Clearly the UK was not ready for the kind of commitment the EU was seeking from their relationship.

So as the EU I'd term it as just another breakup. The two entities need to go their own way. The UK needs to live out its independent streak and mature to a level where they really know what they want. It needs to find itself. And the EU, in the meantime, could do with a little more inner reflection about how it might undergo some of its own self-improvement. It can move from dealing with Britain's iffy stance on their relationship and move towards strengthening themselves, toward reforming themselves, reassuring other European countries and even reaching out to some new ones.

In the meantime, while they might not be together, it's not like they're never gonna see each other together. They'll get together for a few nights of economic agreements and trade deals and work out something with immigration and travel. They won't be a thing, but they'll keep in touch.

And then we'll see. Maybe the UK will come to terms that it's okay being just friends with the EU, and they'll find some way to make it work. Maybe the UK's more pro-EU youth, in the times to come, will come to decide that it's time Britain reconcile with Europe, and seek to rejoin the Union.

If I were the EU, I'd term it that the EU and Britain just need some space from each other for a little while, and that they were going to redouble their efforts on uniting the rest of the mainland continent.
________________________

Also

Hm....

I wonder.

I had an idea..

I know that in other EU countries the complexities of geography and politics and the Union mean that there are some countries with areas both in the EU, and areas outside the EU.

For instance, Denmark is in the EU, but Greenland and the Faroes, both part of Denmark, are not in the EU. I think it's the same with a lot of extra-European territories held by various European nations around the world.

That being said, is it possible that the UK could do some sort of partial-Brexit? A hybrid, if you will? Scotland and Northern Ireland remain in the UK, but also in the EU, and England and Wales leave the EU.

I'm no expert, but might it work?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Felstaff » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:33 am UTC

Away, you scullion! you rampallion! You fustilarian! I'll tickle your catastrophe.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:44 am UTC

Well, that's what the young get when they don't turn out to vote as the old do.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:49 am UTC

If it's old people screwing young people, if the economy tanks the young people should make sure that if Britain has to cut spending it's the pensions that get cut the most. Only fair.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:32 am UTC

Ageism at its best. The young should get smarter quicker. Like, before they themselves get old. Possible alternative explanation, the old are more experienced and have been fucked over enough so as to not be so trusting of talking heads. In either case, a purely UK problem. I will support them in either case, since it is what friends do.

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Re: British EU referendum in June

Postby aoeu » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:51 am UTC

moiraemachy wrote:
Diemo wrote:The EU does prohibit individual countries from making trade/immigration deals. And it has a pretty high incentive to force a bad deal on Britain.
Forcing a deal that is economically bad for both sides for political reasons would also make the EU look exactly as tyrannical as they are painting it to be. Things should remain mostly the same.

Unless the UK is really hellbent on controlling immigration. But I doubt it. Free trade is just too important for UK's economy, their higher-ups will feel an enormous pressure to make sure nothing changes.


Protectionism can be quite profitable. Most EU countries will have a list of UK industries they would like to see undermined. And on the other side of the negotiations the UK politicians will have a choice between disrespecting the spirit of the referendum or using it to wash their hands of the outcome. The outcome won't be very dramatic, but I wouldn't be surprised if there will be small tariffs.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:45 am UTC

The UK has had its credit rating outlook downgraded to "negative" by the ratings agency Moody's after the country voted to leave the EU.

Moody's said the result would herald "a prolonged period of uncertainty".

Meanwhile, PM David Cameron is under pressure to speed up "divorce" talks with the EU after Brussels said exit negotiations should start immediately. EU head Jean-Claude Juncker said it was "not an amicable divorce", but it was "not a tight love affair anyway".

Moody's said the referendum result would have "negative implications for the country's medium-term growth outlook", and it lowered the UK's long term issuer and debt ratings to "negative" from "stable".

It added: "In Moody's view, the negative effect from lower economic growth will outweigh the fiscal savings from the UK no longer having to contribute to the EU budget."

It also said the UK had one of the largest budget deficits among advanced economies.


So our debt could be about to get more expensive. Yay!

The mayor of Calais wants changes to a deal which allows Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the English Channel, after a UK vote to leave the EU.

Natacha Bouchart said Paris must act after Thursday's referendum in which the UK voted to leave the EU. "The British must take the consequences of their choice," she said on Friday.

Under the 2003 Touquet deal, Britain can carry out check in Calais to stop migrants trying to get to Britain.

Ms Bouchart said: "We are in a strong position to push, to press this request for a review and we are asking the President (Francois Hollande) to bring his weight (to the issue). We must put everything on the table and there must be an element of division, of sharing."

Meanwhile, Xavier Bertrand, the president of Hauts-de-France region where Calais is located, said: "The English wanted to take back their freedom: they must take back their border."

The French authorities had warned before the referendum that a vote for leaving the EU could see a camp with thousands of migrants being moved from Calais to British soil.

The British authorities have made no public comments on the issue.


Yay!

Meanwhile, Conservative MEP and Leave campaigner Daniel Hannan told BBC Newsnight he could envisage situation where the UK had "free movement of labour" with the EU.

Asked if he thought Leave voters had been deceived into thinking their vote would bring an end to the freedom of movement, he said: "...do not imagine that if we leave the EU it means zero immigration from the EU, it means we will have some control."


Yay! All worth it then!

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby sardia » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:03 am UTC

If it makes you feel better, this isn't personal. The EU just wants to make an example of the UK as a warning to any other state that wants to rebel.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:06 am UTC

sardia wrote:If it makes you feel better, this isn't personal. The EU just wants to make an example of the UK as a warning to any other state that wants to rebel.



Which kinda makes you wonder why you'd be want to be part of something that goes "or else!" on you.
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Re: British EU referendum in June

Postby BattleMoose » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:08 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:And its okay that you have your opinion that the numbers will work out in the way that you suppose. They might work out differently. Its impossible to guess at how the future will be negotiated between the EU and the UK.

It seems obvious to me that greater restrictions on immigration will have a positive economic effect. The rub is certainly in the details of the consequences of that decision.

My facebook is literally a flood of people deriding the brexit and here I am thinking that there is a fair amount of sense to it. I would have voted remain but can appreciate the potential benefits of leaving.
You do realize that just sticking the word "opinion" somewhere in a sentence doesn't actually make it an opinion, right?
I posted a meta analysis of the peer reviewed literature, what more can you want?
For you to stop calling facts and predictions "opinions". If you disagree with them, just say you think they're false.

And you posted nothing I've seen about peer-reviewed literature on immigration policies or treaties or economic impact.


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016598
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016615

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:19 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Which kinda makes you wonder why you'd be want to be part of something that goes "or else!" on you.

That makes no sense. My government says to me 'don't sell heroin or else!' - does that mean I shouldn't want to be a part of it?

Anyhow, it's not an 'or else'. It's that people behave differently towards friends than non-friends. We just gave the EU a punch in the eye. You expect them to Christ-like turn the other cheek? And because they don't, you condemn them for it?

Live in the real world, please! :D

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zamfir » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:49 am UTC

Keep in mind that 'punching in the face' is relative. Realistically, it would still mean that the UK gets a better and closer relationship with the EU than nearly every country in the world, except for the EFTA.

Not every indivieual aspect of the EU is mutually beneficial for everyone. Some aspects work out for some, others work out better for others. It's a package, with decade of balancing negotiations behind it. The Brexit promised a future in which the UK gets to keep the parts they like, whike cutting g off everything they don't like even if it benefits someone else. Effectively, they are aiming for freerider status.

And the rest of the EU has every reason not to let that happen. And when in doubt, to err on the side of caution. Of course this will result in whines about punching in the face and everything is unfair and tyrannical and what not. But let's be clear here. The UK wants this, we didn't

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:20 am UTC

Also, countries have had a long history of economically punishing other countries with policies they don't like. The UK deserves what it gets.

I hope that Scotland and Northern Ireland make it out. Cornwall is already trying to get protections because it actually benefited greatly from the EU despite voting even more in favour of hte Brexit.

I get more depressed.

The Caribbean will also most likely be hit quite hard by this:
http://www.antillean.org/brexit-impacts-caribbean-044
I'm not sure how robust CARICOM is to deal with this. At least XCD is tied to the US dollar, not the pound.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:14 am UTC

Don’t adjust your screen now. Here’s Ian Paisley Junior, son of the founder of the Democratic Unionist Party, advising his constituents and others to take up the opportunity of securing an Irish passport:

"My advice is if you are entitled to second passport then take one. I sign off lots of applications for constituents"

Under the terms of the 1998 Belfast Agreement – sometimes known as the Good Friday Agreement – anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to be citizens of both the United Kingdom and Ireland.

In the wake of the Brexit vote, which was supported by a minority of Northern Ireland voters, there have been reports of a small surge in the number of people there applying for Irish passports, including in areas with a high number of unionist voters.

What would Ian Paisley senior, who died in September 2014, make of the post referendum landscape?


I've also heard of people talking of relocating to Scotland (though, honestly, I'm not sure how much I'd trust the strength of their economy post their independence either...)

---

A parliamentary petition calling for a second referendum has attracted nearly a million signatures, even as unprecedented demand temporarily crashed the website.

On Friday a government website saw an “exceptionally high” number of visits as hundreds of thousands of signatures were added to a second referendum e-petition in the wake of Britain’s leave vote.

By Saturday morning, more than 800,000 people had signed up, over five times the number needed for the issue to be raised in Parliament.

The petition calling for a second referendum, set up by William Oliver Healey, states: “We the undersigned call upon HM government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum.”

A map of the petition’s signatures indicated that most activity was in England’s major cities. The highest number of signatories came from London, where most boroughs backed remain in the referendum.

A House of Commons spokeswoman earlier said the site had temporarily been taken out of action due to “exceptionally high volumes of simultaneous users on a single petition, significantly higher than on any previous occasion.”

“UK parliament and the government digital service are aware of the issue and are working hard to resolve the problems as quickly as possible.”

The parliamentary petitions system is overseen by the petitions committee, who consider whether petitions that receive more than 100,000 signatures should be raised in the House. The committee is due to sit again on Tuesday.

Heh. Can't backdate the rules like that. It's done.

A Change.org petition calling on Khan to instigate the secession of London from the rest of the UK gathered more than 99,800 signatures by Saturday morning. The page, set up by James O’Malley, stated: “London is an international city, and we want to remain at the heart of Europe.

“Let’s face it – the rest of the country disagrees. So rather than passive-aggressively vote against each other at every election, let’s make the divorce official and move in with our friends on the continent.

“This petition is calling on mayor Sadiq Khan to declare London independent, and apply to join the EU – including membership of the Schengen zone (Umm, we’ll talk about the euro ...).”

Heh :)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:04 am UTC

elasto wrote:
Meanwhile, Conservative MEP and Leave campaigner Daniel Hannan told BBC Newsnight he could envisage situation where the UK had "free movement of labour" with the EU.

Asked if he thought Leave voters had been deceived into thinking their vote would bring an end to the freedom of movement, he said: "...do not imagine that if we leave the EU it means zero immigration from the EU, it means we will have some control."


Yay! All worth it then!


Honestly, if we get to keep freedom of movement I'll relax a lot. That's one thing I really hope we don't lose.

elasto wrote:
A Change.org petition calling on Khan to instigate the secession of London from the rest of the UK gathered more than 99,800 signatures by Saturday morning. The page, set up by James O’Malley, stated: “London is an international city, and we want to remain at the heart of Europe.

“Let’s face it – the rest of the country disagrees. So rather than passive-aggressively vote against each other at every election, let’s make the divorce official and move in with our friends on the continent.

“This petition is calling on mayor Sadiq Khan to declare London independent, and apply to join the EU – including membership of the Schengen zone (Umm, we’ll talk about the euro ...).”

Heh :)


The biggest issue is that we don't have a sea border, and we can't make our own food, power etc, and negotiating that with the rest of England could turn ugly when they realise the money-hose from London is getting switched off. What's more realistic is London gets a much larger degree of autonomy and gets to keep much more of the tax money it raises for itself. London didn't vote for Leave, we shouldn't have to bear the costs of doing so.

I just worry what the Brexiters are going to turn on next, in five years time when things haven't magically got better for them. What's the next scapegoat?

Lucrece wrote:
sardia wrote:If it makes you feel better, this isn't personal. The EU just wants to make an example of the UK as a warning to any other state that wants to rebel.


Which kinda makes you wonder why you'd be want to be part of something that goes "or else!" on you.


A common argument we heard from the leave side. If you leave a union, you lose the benefits of being in that union. Calling that blackmail is ridiculous, the leave side want to have their cake and eat it, and they're in for a rude awakening when they realise they don't get to unilaterally dictate terms.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:17 am UTC

The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.

The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.

She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.

They shouted: “Why are there only ten white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?

Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.

/golfclap

Makes one proud to be British, doesn't it.

---

Steps will now be taken to ensure that the necessary legislation will be put in place for a second Scottish independence referendum, Scotland’s first minister has said.

The meeting formally agreed that this work should proceed, Sturgeon tells the press outside Bute House.

One thing she doesn’t do in the short address is guarantee that the second referendum will now take place

...

The Scottish government will seek to enter into “immediate discussions” with Brussels to “protect Scotland’s place in the EU” in the wake of the Brexit vote, Scotland’s first minister also says.

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Re: British EU referendum in June

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:16 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:And its okay that you have your opinion that the numbers will work out in the way that you suppose. They might work out differently. Its impossible to guess at how the future will be negotiated between the EU and the UK.

It seems obvious to me that greater restrictions on immigration will have a positive economic effect. The rub is certainly in the details of the consequences of that decision.

My facebook is literally a flood of people deriding the brexit and here I am thinking that there is a fair amount of sense to it. I would have voted remain but can appreciate the potential benefits of leaving.
You do realize that just sticking the word "opinion" somewhere in a sentence doesn't actually make it an opinion, right?
I posted a meta analysis of the peer reviewed literature, what more can you want?
For you to stop calling facts and predictions "opinions". If you disagree with them, just say you think they're false.

And you posted nothing I've seen about peer-reviewed literature on immigration policies or treaties or economic impact.


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016598
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016615
You misread me. Not surprising because I worded it poorly, but I meant immigration policies, immigration treaties, and immigration's economic impact.

Linking to two posts where you talk about something else isn't a relevant response.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: British EU referendum in June

Postby BattleMoose » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:29 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:And its okay that you have your opinion that the numbers will work out in the way that you suppose. They might work out differently. Its impossible to guess at how the future will be negotiated between the EU and the UK.

It seems obvious to me that greater restrictions on immigration will have a positive economic effect. The rub is certainly in the details of the consequences of that decision.

My facebook is literally a flood of people deriding the brexit and here I am thinking that there is a fair amount of sense to it. I would have voted remain but can appreciate the potential benefits of leaving.
You do realize that just sticking the word "opinion" somewhere in a sentence doesn't actually make it an opinion, right?
I posted a meta analysis of the peer reviewed literature, what more can you want?
For you to stop calling facts and predictions "opinions". If you disagree with them, just say you think they're false.

And you posted nothing I've seen about peer-reviewed literature on immigration policies or treaties or economic impact.


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016598
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&start=240#p4016615
You misread me. Not surprising because I worded it poorly, but I meant immigration policies, immigration treaties, and immigration's economic impact.

Linking to two posts where you talk about something else isn't a relevant response.


What is happening here? There is literally a link there, to a meta analysis of the peer reviewed literature that examines the economic impact of a Brexit. That absolutely includes the economic aspects of immigration and alternate post brexit scenarios. Where am I losing you exactly? Here's the link, again.

http://www.iwkoeln.de/studien/iw-report ... act-277405

The title: Brexit – the economic impact

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:47 pm UTC

Pardon me for thinking that if an analysis dealt significantly with immigration, it would say so somewhere in its introduction or table of contents, and for thinking that if you were looking at that analysis for your "opinions" about immigration statistics, you would have said so at any point, instead of just linking me back to a couple of posts where you don't talk about immigration.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:12 pm UTC

Hah!

https://twitter.com/Saraita101/status/7 ... 32/photo/1

----

Meanwhile:

Theresa May, the home secretary, is emerging as the leading choice for a “Stop Boris” candidate among Conservative MPs who want a new prime minister to unify the party after Britain’s vote to leave the EU.

Boris Johnson, the former London mayor, is the clear favourite to succeed David Cameron, who resigned after the referendum result on Friday. Johnson’s decision to campaign for Brexit boosted his popularity with the party grassroots.

Some Tory backbenchers regard Johnson and Michael Gove, the justice secretary, as a dream ticket of popular appeal and strategic brains, particularly given surveys showing they are supported by rank-and-file members.

He is not, however, the clear choice of Conservative MPs, even among the 129 who supported Brexit. One senior Tory who backed leaving the EU told the Guardian they were not convinced Johnson had the gravitas and experience, and would considering backing May if she declares an interest.

May kept a low profile during the campaign, and may pitch herself as a unifying bridge between the Eurosceptic and modernising wings of the party. She burnished her credentials among Eurosceptics during the campaign by calling for withdrawal from the European convention on human rights.

Alan Duncan, a Conservative MP and former minister, said it was wrong to assume the new leader had to be a Brexiter.

“If you just look through the lens of this referendum that is behind us, that will actually narrow the way in which we look at ourselves,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“What we need is unity, stability, credibility and competence. Someone has got to be good on domestic and foreign policy and be able to stand on the domestic stage with dignity and effectiveness.”

Duncan said he would probably not back Johnson and that people should not take it for granted that the grassroots members would either.

“Do not necessarily assume that he is the darling of the Conservative party activists,” he said. “A lot of them have loved the notoriety and the excitement. But actually, once you scratch the surface a little bit and ask the second question, a lot of them don’t want a permanent ride on the big dipper.”

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mauthe Dhoo » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:43 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
elasto wrote:
A Change.org petition calling on Khan to instigate the secession of London from the rest of the UK gathered more than 99,800 signatures by Saturday morning. The page, set up by James O’Malley, stated: “London is an international city, and we want to remain at the heart of Europe.

“Let’s face it – the rest of the country disagrees. So rather than passive-aggressively vote against each other at every election, let’s make the divorce official and move in with our friends on the continent.

“This petition is calling on mayor Sadiq Khan to declare London independent, and apply to join the EU – including membership of the Schengen zone (Umm, we’ll talk about the euro ...).”

Heh :)


The biggest issue is that we don't have a sea border, and we can't make our own food, power etc, and negotiating that with the rest of England could turn ugly when they realise the money-hose from London is getting switched off. What's more realistic is London gets a much larger degree of autonomy and gets to keep much more of the tax money it raises for itself. London didn't vote for Leave, we shouldn't have to bear the costs of doing so.


((I have a response to a sentiment expressed broadly elsewhere and articulated really well here by you, but I don't want to demand that you defend a position you don't actually hold.))

I mean, it's one thing for Scotland to discuss independence and Northern Ireland to discuss reunification (or whatever the culturally appropriate term would be, please excuse my foreignness), because of history and culture. But London is about as English and about as British as a geographic entity can get. At some point, you have to come to grips with the fundamental principles of democracy - even though you didn't vote for Leave, you absolutely should have to bear the costs of doing so. Y'all live in (and seat the government of!) a nation that did vote for it. It would be terrible if other parts of the nation - who (as evinced by their voting patterns) already feel economically disadvantaged - became significantly more disenfranchised from the government's "money-hose" just because London has the political influence to close ranks.

Democracy serves bitter pills, but you can't just bail when you don't win. That's the whole problem with the Leave faction. Don't jump on their ideological bandwagon - they're in the wrong!
Last edited by Mauthe Dhoo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:00 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: British EU referendum in June

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:56 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:
Fractal_Tangent wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:To be a bit selfish, this bodes poorly for the US general election.


To be fair, the US did have the best Brexit of all time.

I'm a fucking dual national. If you lot vote in Trump. I will not even.


We know, you will move up to Canada along with the rest who are upset elections didn't go their way.

I'll put that down as 'Number 1 thing I didn't say' and secondly, I'm totally allowed to be upset that an election didn't go my way. That's the whole point of voting for a thing that you want, you're allowed to be pissed off when things don't go your way. Especially the way the campaigning went.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

Mauthe Dhoo wrote:((I have a response to a sentiment expressed broadly and articulated really well here by you, but I don't want to demand that you defend a position you don't actually hold.))

I mean, it's one thing for Scotland to discuss independence and Northern Ireland to discuss reunification (or whatever the culturally appropriate term would be, please excuse my foreignness), because of history and culture. But London is about as English and about as British as a geographic entity can get. At some point, you have to come to grips with the fundamental principles of democracy - even though you didn't vote for Leave, you absolutely should have to bear the costs of doing so. Y'all live in (and seat the government of!) a nation that did vote for it. It would be terrible if other parts of the nation - who (as evinced by their voting patterns) already feel economically disadvantaged - became significantly more disenfranchised from the government's "money-hose" just because London has the political influence to close ranks.

Democracy serves bitter pills, but you can't just bail when you don't win. That's the whole problem with the Leave faction. Don't jump on their ideological bandwagon - they're in the wrong!


Well, London actually feels very different to the rest of England and has done for a long time. This isn't the first vote where London and the rest of England has been very much at odds with each other - see most general elections (the fact we seat the government doesn't make us feel any closer to them). London might epitomise Englishness to people from outside the country, but that's not the mood of the people here. It's the actual practical details about how London could be a sovereign state that are holding back the idea - the difference in culture is what's *fuelling* the idea.

And it's not the government's money-hose, it's London's I'm talking about. People here generate 70% more tax than the rest of the country. And most of it goes to the rest of the country. Now, that's how countries are meant to work, but when we're basically supporting the people who force terrible ideas and governments on us, that's a very bitter pill. And the resentment it's causing is coming to a head.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:55 pm UTC

It occurs to me that referencing Napoleon of Notting Hill would be interestingly (in)appropriate.

How about Passport to Pimlico? ;)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:51 pm UTC

Police are investigating suspected post-referendum racism after hate mail aimed at the Polish community was allegedly distributed in Cambridgeshire.

Laminated cards reading “Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin” were found in Huntingdon, north west of Cambridge.

The Polish language newspaper, Nasze Strony, reports on the incident and on the fact that the cards even had a translation in Polish on the reverse.

Teachers at a school near to where some of the cards were found yesterday reportedly threw them away but more were left on a path leading to it later.

Inspector Nick Percival of Cambridgeshire Constabulary told the Guardian that police were aware of the incident.

He added: “We are aware of it and have had a report from a member of the public. We are following up are taking it seriously as it does represent a hate crime. We would encourage anyone who is either a victim or is aware of the source of this to come forward.”

Stay classy now.

---

The UK's European Commissioner Lord Hill is to stand down, saying "what is done cannot be undone" after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

He said he did not believe it was right for him to carry on with his work as the commissioner in charge of financial services.

European Commissioners are among the most powerful officials in Brussels, with the ability to propose laws across a range of policy areas, but the UK will cease to have one when it leaves the EU.

Conservative peer Lord Hill told the BBC: "When something as huge as the decision in the British referendum takes place, actions have consequences.

"It's not possible for me to carry on properly. You have to listen to the will of the British people. The right thing to do is to stand down and that's what today I am announcing."

In a statement, he said he was "obviously very disappointed" about the result of the referendum, adding: "I wanted it to end differently and had hoped that Britain would want to play a role in arguing for an outward-looking, flexible, competitive, free trade Europe. But the British people took a different decision, and that is the way that democracy works."

He went on: "I came to Brussels as someone who had campaigned against Britain joining the euro and who was sceptical about Europe. I will leave it certain that, despite its frustrations, our membership was good for our place in the world and good for our economy."

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mauthe Dhoo » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:59 pm UTC

Mutex:

I didn't mean London epitomized cultural Englishness. I meant that London is unambiguously part of England and of the UK, a simple geographic truth uncomplicated in the ways that Northern Ireland and Scotland are complicated.

Democracy demands pluralism. Countries as cultural entities are large and their constituent parts will inevitably be very different from one another, with differences waxing and waning across time. Nations as governmental entities are complicated systems of cultural and economic give and take, and because they are so complicated, the give and take will never feel perfectly even because it will never be perfectly even. London emits a lot of tax dollars, and (as you pointed out) pulls in a lot as well, like foodstuffs.

None of those pragmatic realities is as important as the pragmatic value of coalition, though. Democracy is a tool to keep cultural entities from becoming isolated cultural enclaves, and that is a very worthy pursuit for myriad reasons: a broader economy enables exponentially greater individual prosperity, cultural enclaves internally suppress individuality and breed human rights violations, tribalistic "us-vs-them" ideology fuels interpersonal and international violence. When democracy demands pluralism, that's a reasonable price to pay to avoid (well, reduce) all that.

I really hope that more than just pragmatic realities would keep London from seceding, given the opportunity.* Wanting to pull out is wanting to escape democracy (and get what instead?). Letting resentment crack the national sovereignty would be a terrible failure far worse than Brexit - and the rhetorical similarity of the two positions should at least be a red flag.

*And yes, I do realize that this is all notional.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:46 pm UTC

The notion of London seceding is obviously fantasy. However it makes one 'get' the otherwise alien mentality of the US a little more - with their curiously strong affiliation to their local state and correspondingly weak identification to the federal government.

It wouldn't be completely beyond the realm of reason for the United Kingdom to become a United States of Britain along the same sort of lines.

Though, obviously, it's still never going to happen :)

----

The government should guarantee English councils will still receive the £5.3bn they had been allocated from EU funds, the Local Government Association says.

It said councils in England had been expecting to receive regeneration funding from the EU by 2020, before the UK voted to leave the union this week.

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure your future is safe in Boris' hands.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:09 pm UTC

Yes, it's more of a thought experiment than anything. And a means of throwing the leavers divisive, Othering logic back in their faces.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:50 pm UTC

I'm getting a "I don't really like Democracy" vibe here. London leaving the UK is an interesting thought however. How much of a premium do you think the surrounding country would charge you for access to everything. The only near term thing that even comes close to the idea, is Berlin after the war.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:57 pm UTC

Having a morbid (is that quite the right word) chuckle at all the people who have #Bregret.

You get what you voted for! You've screwed all of us, now live with the guilt.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Quercus » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I'm getting a "I don't really like Democracy" vibe here.


I don't really like democracy. At least the sort of democracy exemplified by referenda. Never have done, so it's not just bitterness about the results of this one. As far as I can see it voting is a bloody good way of getting a change of government without violence, and a pretty crappy way of making individual decisions*.


*I'm open to being convinced otherwise on this though, because I haven't thought about it hard enough to come to a really firm stance.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:26 pm UTC

Quercus, I tend to agree.

The public vote for representatives to carefully weigh the options and come to an expert opinion. The public are experts in nothing, as a rule.

Democracy is a safeguard against tyranny and little more.

---

The backlash against Brexit has strengthened with more than 2 million people signed a parliamentary petition calling for a second EU referendum.

Demand for a fresh vote was so high that it crashed the parliament.uk website on Friday as the petition was shared widely on social media and new signatures were added at a rate of more than 100,000 an hour.

By 6pm on Saturday, more than 146,000 people had signed another petition calling on the London mayor to declare the capital independent from the UK so that it could stay in the EU, with supporters tweeting under the hashtag #londependence.

Senior Labour figures also called for parliament to overturn the referendum result. David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, said: “Wake up. We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness and bring this nightmare to an end through a vote in parliament. Our sovereign parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.

“The referendum was an advisory, non-binding referendum. The leave campaign’s platform has already unravelled and some people wish they hadn’t voted to leave. Parliament now needs to decide whether we should go forward with Brexit and there should be a vote in parliament next week.

“Let us not destroy our economy on the basis of lies and the hubris of Boris Johnson.”

Pretty sure it's not going to go anywhere; It'd just divide the country even worse than before if the politicians don't go with the result.

Still, 2m signatures in such a short space of time is pretty incredible, given that most people that care about something don't actually go on to do something concrete about it. It's heading towards 10% of those who voted in the actual referendum itself.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:28 pm UTC

I think the worst thing for me is that the Leave Campaign are taking back everything that they said they would do. Nigel Farage is in confusing denial about the £350 mil to NHS dealy, nobody seemed to have or have made any clear plan as to what they would do when it came down to it. I'm not upset with the result, I'm upset with a campaign that has no idea what to do with itself now that it's won.

Do they know who is a good candidate to run the country? Do they know what to do with the 'savings' that were going to be made? Do they have some sort of advisory timescale? Do they have any plan at all about where other money will come from? How to deal (in the short term) with those who had subsidies from the EU? EU citizens who are currently living here? How long it will take? What happens when we don't want to leave quickly and the EU does want us to leave quickly?

I'm angry because I believe that a lot of people voted believing that the people campaigning had some idea of what they were going to do when the Leave answer came. Now it's been proven that they have no idea. And that bothers me because I think that people voted after having been mislead quite deliberately. Democracy is all about being able to make a decision with the best information out there. We didn't have that, we had wild speculation on one side and nothing but doom and gloom from the other.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:47 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
morriswalters wrote:I'm getting a "I don't really like Democracy" vibe here.


I don't really like democracy. At least the sort of democracy exemplified by referenda. Never have done, so it's not just bitterness about the results of this one. As far as I can see it voting is a bloody good way of getting a change of government without violence, and a pretty crappy way of making individual decisions*.


*I'm open to being convinced otherwise on this though, because I haven't thought about it hard enough to come to a really firm stance.
Maybe.
elasto wrote:The public vote for representatives to carefully weigh the options and come to an expert opinion. The public are experts in nothing, as a rule.
Neither are the people they elect since they are selected from the same pool. Most things that they will have to make decisions on don't have hard and fast answers. Which is why you have political divides. It eventually comes down to whom do you trust? And sooner or later it occurs to you that you can't trust any of them. However I don't believe in Democracy either. I just try to get out of the way when I can.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:15 pm UTC

Leave argued that Remain didn't have a Plan B for if the result went against them. And now we learn tbat they didn't have a Plan A, eh?

Meanwhile, I've been wondering if anybody has been looking at the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (2011), or maybe prior Parliament Acts still relevent, to see if (as Plan C) public concensus can inspire a practically immediate general election and let there be another battleground take priority before anyone actually needs to commit to Article 50. Not that I think it'll be useful, myself, but I'm betting its a tack that others would be examine if they thought of it.


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