Transgender in a single-sex school

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Sableagle » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:51 pm UTC

This was bound to come up, I suppose, but apparently we weren't ready for it.

Both ways round:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 69711.html
http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/21/transgend ... l-5579127/

Graham Easterlow, who teaches in an all boys' school, told how one pupil had confided in teachers that she wanted to identify as a girl.

He said he had gone to the headteacher about the girl's statement and discovered there was "no precedent and no process" for dealing with the issue.

He said the headteacher had been supportive but some senior staff dismissed the girl's statement, saying it was "just a fad".

The school had decided to take the attitude of "let's calm down – this is not an issue", he said. It had made minor adjustments when necessary - such as allowing the girl to change for sport separately.

Helen Porter, from Berkshire, told how – at an all girls'school – two pupils had indicated they were male when they were in the sixth-form. "There was no problem with uniform because the girls were allowed to wear trousers," she added.


Nick knows how it feels like to be the only boy in an all-girls school.

He was living as a girl until two years ago when he started living as a boy.

Nick, who didn’t give his last name, said some teachers called him ‘she’ and one even suggested he become a lesbian. He also had problems using changing rooms and toilets.


Anyone have any ideas on how to navigate that particular (potential) minefield?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:01 pm UTC

Be clear whether your discriminatory school does so on sex or gender and be consistent?

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:33 pm UTC

So, you're saying discrimination causes problems?

Seems reasonable.

Derek
Posts: 2178
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Derek » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm UTC

I was expecting this to be where a trans boy wants to attend an all-boys school, or a trans girl wants to attend an all-girls school. I'm sure those issues will come up soon as well, if they haven't already. That's actually probably the more difficult issue, since older or more traditional people usually want to see trans people as being their biological sex, so they would be more likely to accept a trans boy at an all-girls school as "just crossdressing" but a trans girl at a trans girl school would be a serious problem for them.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:11 pm UTC

If it's an all girl school, and the girl identifies as a boy, does he have to leave?

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Sableagle » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:03 pm UTC

Apparently not. After all, friendships, coursework assignments, known teachers and so on are all there. Even if there's an all-boys school half a mile away, it's still a disruption to a person's life at a rather important stage of it, and saying "There's no room for you here!" would be a rejection, which is not what's needed.
For quite a while, at least, there'll also be no issue of different genitalia in the same classroom / sports session / changing room if the trans person stays put. I'm no expert on this, but I'd guess that physical transformation and a change of school and a change (or narrowing-down) of subjects should probably be synchronised and happen during summer holidays.
Tedd becomes Tess at 14 or 15, GCSEs happen at 16, Tess leaves the all-boys Grammar School, changes physical sex and she goes to the all-girls Sixth Form College to do A-levels, or the equivalent between A-levels and University.
I do wonder what the minimum age for that is and how long that means people have to wait.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

Chen
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:55 am UTC

I kinda fail to see the point of segregating the schools if they're going to let the person stay anyways. You've kinda destroyed any solid reasoning as to why you segregated them in the first place.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:30 pm UTC

not really, because the main reason for segregated schooling is for reasons of sex and attraction - Ben into Bess won't cause said problem (realistically)

User avatar
stopmadnessnow
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:58 pm UTC
Location: Somewhere in that country with Big Ben in it.

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby stopmadnessnow » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:05 pm UTC

Girls are attracted to other girls, boys are attracted to other boys. This idea of segregation is useless anyway.
For comic writing or short story writing post-haste, contact the off-the peg joke chap. He has the nous.
http://plwimsett.simplesite.com/ for my site.
https://www.upwork.com/freelancers/~01110048bacb43eae6 to hire me at Upwork.

lorb
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:34 am UTC
Location: Austria

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby lorb » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:36 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I kinda fail to see the point of segregating the schools if they're going to let the person stay anyways. You've kinda destroyed any solid reasoning as to why you segregated them in the first place.

stopmadnessnow wrote:This idea of segregation is useless anyway.


This. There just is no "solid reasoning" to segregate education based on whatever theory of gender/sex you subscribe to.
Please be gracious in judging my english. (I am not a native speaker/writer.)
http://decodedarfur.org/

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

The dramatic improvements in outcomes for both groups would strongly indicate otherwise.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6406
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:00 pm UTC

lorb wrote:There just is no "solid reasoning" to segregate education based on whatever theory of gender/sex you subscribe to.
The idea is to significantly reduce social distractions to academic focus. In my experience (admittedly not a peer-reviewed double blind A/B trial), it does work.

Whether it's worth it is another question. In any case, it's an 80% solution. A transgender exception here or there won't break the model.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

lorb
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:34 am UTC
Location: Austria

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby lorb » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:32 pm UTC

leady wrote:The dramatic improvements in outcomes for both groups would strongly indicate otherwise.

Don't exist. And vanish in those studies that found them if you control for other variables.

ucim wrote:
lorb wrote:There just is no "solid reasoning" to segregate education based on whatever theory of gender/sex you subscribe to.
The idea is to significantly reduce social distractions to academic focus. In my experience (admittedly not a peer-reviewed double blind A/B trial), it does work.

Whether it's worth it is another question. In any case, it's an 80% solution. A transgender exception here or there won't break the model.

Jose

See the links I gave above. And apart from it not even helping education, it increases sexism and furthers gender stereotypes. All the sources are peer-reviewed and I avoided all sources that could be seen as biased, but double-blind A/B trials are extremely uncommon in sociology so you won't get those.
Please be gracious in judging my english. (I am not a native speaker/writer.)
http://decodedarfur.org/

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:03 pm UTC

That paper shows that it does have a small positive effect on maths and science after controlling for practically everything else. Given that shared environments only have between 30 - 50% effect on outcomes a small effect is worthwhile. Combine that with types of school that are single sex (SES status etc) and the effect looks huge, which of course why they persist i.e. they select on sex, SES, parental involvement etc and the combination of factors is very strong. So I can absolutely understand why parents choose them. Also from a UK centric perspective the top girls SES grammar schools storm the charts every year.

Personally I have no interest in subjective social nonsense stuff :)

lorb
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:34 am UTC
Location: Austria

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby lorb » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:29 pm UTC

The paper literally calls the positive effect "trivial" because they are so small, and it also finds positive effects for coeducational schools. The effect sizes are really tiny both ways anyway and actually a little bigger for the positive effects of CE. So the takeaway is that there may or may not be a positive effect of single-sex education that may as well be negative, but either way if it does exist it is really tiny. All of this is only looking at parameters of academic/educational success so far. If you look beyond that you see that with single-sex schooling you are trading "there may be a small positive effects on academic success" for "there definitely are adverse effects for sexism and gender stereotyping".

But don't take my word for it. A quick internet search for relevant studies will quickly tell you the same. The scientific consensus is not 100% definite, but it very clearly and strongly favours the "there is no compelling reason to have gender segregated schools/education" argument.
Please be gracious in judging my english. (I am not a native speaker/writer.)
http://decodedarfur.org/

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

Unfortunately my view is that there is so much ideological dross in social science as to make any evaluation futile. Basically 90% of social scientists are left wing, and the left wing can't bear anything that looks like discrimination, segregation in schooling, ergo I find it very hard to trust the studies without reading them in detail to discover their hidden flaws. :)

in the UK the small number of single sex schools that exist massively outperform their coed competition. Given that parents are uninterested in controlled studies - the ones that exist are going to stay. If I had children and specifically a girl, I'd definitely consider it - but its a moot question.

Chen
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:03 pm UTC

leady wrote:in the UK the small number of single sex schools that exist massively outperform their coed competition.


Aren't these also very likely private, expensive schools? Ones that are selective in who they let in? Even neglecting that they presumably have to specifically be approached before your child will go there, and that fact alone; parents who care about their children's education enough to pick out specific schools, is likely to be a huge confounding factor in why their outcomes are better.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:11 pm UTC

leady wrote:Unfortunately my view is that there is so much ideological dross in social science as to make any evaluation futile. Basically 90% of social scientists are left wing, and the left wing can't bear anything that looks like discrimination, segregation in schooling, ergo I find it very hard to trust the studies without reading them in detail to discover their hidden flaws. :)


Look, I agree that sociology is often full of BS, and isn't sufficiently rigorous, but you can't reasonably both decry it as bullshit AND try to use the points of the study you like.

The honest approach would be to point out methodological failings, and admit that no, the study doesn't really support segregation. If yer argument relies on segregation working, it's kind of on you to prove that, not merely snipe at sociology in general. That doesn't prove shit.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6343
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby sardia » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:13 pm UTC

What would warrant Special treatment for a trans person at a single sex school? Does the person feel uncomfortable changing or going to the bathroom? Would someone wearing boys clothing in the presence of girls make someone uncomfortable?

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Sableagle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:35 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
leady wrote:in the UK the small number of single sex schools that exist massively outperform their coed competition.


Aren't these also very likely private, expensive schools? Ones that are selective in who they let in? Even neglecting that they presumably have to specifically be approached before your child will go there, and that fact alone; parents who care about their children's education enough to pick out specific schools, is likely to be a huge confounding factor in why their outcomes are better.


Yes, this. We have "the comprehensive" that will, as the name implies, take anybody, and we have the Girls' High School and (boys') Grammar School that have their own entrance exams, won't even let you get that far unless you come from a "feeder" school or come with glowing recommendations (or a fat wad of cash, presumably) and charge fees. The grammar school has a three-storey library. The comprehensive has a closet full of tenth- to fifteenth-hand texts and textbooks. The grammar school has its own consecrated chapel, its own sports hall and weights rooms, its own swimming pool and an assembly hall with seating that can be rolled back to make extra space for ballroom dancing evenings. The comprehensive has one combined assembly hall, end-of-year party venue, gymnasium, sports hall, exhibition space et cetera, with a leaky roof and a leakier walls. The grammar school appealed to parents for help funding a new theatre and got £2,000,000. The comprehensive asks for donations so they can provide one copy of Tess of the d'Urbervilles to each two students. The boys at the grammar school all eat breakfast every morning. The comprehensive might be able to afford a Hornby 00 gauge (1:76-scale) train set but don't have anywhere to set it up permanently. The grammar school have their own working 1:4-scale steam locomotive.

Yes, given all those differences in funding, expectations, nutrition, selectiveness of pupils entering the school and availability of teaching staff (1:10 teachers to pupils now versus 28 a few decades back now down to 21 as the average for the UK), the grammar school and girls' high school did generally get better O-level, GCSE and A-level results than the comprehensive that missed out on many of the brightest pupils because their parents sent them to the grammar school or girls' high school instead.

The two selective schools in question sold their sites in the city (including the £2M theatre) and set up a new school with better facilities outside the ring-road.

Between the ages of 11 and 16 our pupils learn under the diamond model. This means that boys and girls are taught separately for their academic studies, but mix freely at other times. We do this because it works! When teaching is adapted to take into account gender differences during adolescence, the academic performance of all pupils improves.

...

So, Sam(uel/antha), Philip(pa), Alexand(ra/er), Leon(ie), Karim or Fatima would still get the same bus to the same school, eat in the same place at the same time and mix with the same other pupils in the same corridors, but tGSaL would still have to pick a day to move him or her from the all-female course group to the all-male course group or vice versa for each subject and probably do something about sports too, although that brings up another question: should pupils be split along sex or gender lines for sports or not split at all? Given several boys, several girls and, maybe, a boy in a girlish body or a girl in a boyish body, do you give them all free choice of all sports? Let the boys play rounders and the girls play soccer if they want, the trans boy play netball and the trans girl play rugby?

sardia wrote:What would warrant Special treatment for a trans person at a single sex school? Does the person feel uncomfortable changing or going to the bathroom? Would someone wearing boys clothing in the presence of girls make someone uncomfortable?


It being a facility containing 1,000 teenagers, pretty much everything is going to result in someone making someone else uncomfortable. You can't send someone with a penis to get changed with all the girls with vaginas because that's bound to make someone uncomfortable, you can't send someone who identifies as a girl to get changed with the boys because that's like saying "no you're not," you can't send someone with breasts and a vagina to get changed with all the boys and if you provide individual changing facilities of anyone you're giving one person special treatment and at risk of creating a "not one of you" sort of thing in someone's mind.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
HES
Posts: 4868
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm UTC
Location: England

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby HES » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:21 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:(1:10 teachers to pupils now versus 28 a few decades back now down to 21 as the average for the UK)

Interesting, I didn't realise that had come back down. I went through school in classes of 27-31.
He/Him/His Image

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Sableagle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:40 pm UTC

Well, it's a complicated sort of thing because class size != pupil-to-teacher ratio != pupil-to-adult ratio. The link has a graph showing all three, and the PTA has come down faster than the PTT ... probably because teachers are more expensive than classroom assistants.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
zombie_monkey
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:26 pm UTC
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby zombie_monkey » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:47 pm UTC

A friend mentioned the other day that he feels awkward making smalltalk with women because he went to a sex-segregated school. I did a bit of a double-take because we don't have them in this country; he's Belgian. I didn't know they still existed in some places until I was a teengaer, probably, and I don't think I know anyone else who's been to one.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3486
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:27 pm UTC

Not entirely sure my unsegregated Comprehensive helped my ease at talking to girls (then, later on, women), but then I'm hardly the most adept conversationalist with an all-male group.

Spoiler:
Talking to people I don't know is hard. Knowing people I don't talk to is harder.

It's people, that must be it. I'm not good talking to people. Yup, that's it. ;)

Which is not to say I'm inarticulate, I would hope. But not for me to say. Assuming I could hazard the attempt, even...


As to the issues of nonbinary/off-standard identities, a lot has changed since I was at school... The environment couldn't deal with "You're a swot!"-type bullying, or one ecomonic stratum finding a target in another economic stratum to hassle over the perceived differences. The first person to exhibit signs of being gay (though I did not know it at the time, and there must be many I knew prior but never kept in touch enough to find this out) basically had an outgoing nature such that the (frankly) lewd exhibitionism at that Scout Camp was Laddish, as it might later have been termed. A bit of a bruiser, too, which helped.

In comparison, the most effiminate of my peers... I've no idea if he ever had a closet to come out of. Probably a straight (or str8?) family man, running a business, or mid-to-upper management on a huge firm... Should I ask his sister when next we chance to meet? She now runs the family car repair place, but I don't even know if she's married, or even any reason to assume to whom...

In other words, it's a different world from the one I grew up in. Even transcribing my own experience into that near mythical beast, the single-sex educational establishment, it's a different world these days.

A pupil who is known and not already a subtle victim of sub-radar bullying will probably transition (the clothing stage, at least) with the support of any decent friends. If there's already social problems (perhaps arising from the underlying identity making an unwelcome early appearance at just the stage where new differences clash with adolescent mental turmoil and spark all kinds of problems) then it could still be hell to experience, even with the (legislated, if not sincere) assistance and care of the teacing staff at hand.

If it was like that then a move to a new school (with no alliances, but also no dire enemies) would be the least-worst option, if there was a definite plan agreed regarding 'adjustments' and accomodations. But it's a tricky one.

Final fall-back would be Home Schooling, but there's dsadvantages there, too, of various kinds.

Hence (as with the possibility of talking wirh the opposite sex) there are all kinds of people in all kinds of situation and I wouldn't care to paint broad brush-strokes. With some understanding, some official guidance where understanding alone is not quite up to scratch and a decent-sized bunch of luck in hand to get around the remaining odd hiccup, I think the modern world shouldn't be any worse for anyone than you average other kid.

But, lest you think I'm being too optomistic, a support system needs to be in place. As it does for every Ginger, every Swot, every Dunce, every Poor Little Rich Boy, every Gyppo's Son, every Dog-Faced-Girl or Boy With The Funny Eye, every Lanky or Titch or Fatty or Walking Skeleton, and every-which-way combination of 'not our religion', 'not our skin colour' or 'does not speak like us, innit bro?'...

Which is a job that is never ending, as the progression of years drives the conveyor-belt of new people arriving at school with new (or age-old!) challenges, upon encountering those that would take umbrage, and if you satisfactorily sort it out, there's another tranche of challenges (the same/different) about to arive shortly...

Good luck to 'em all, I say. They may need it, but I hope less and less... With a bit of work.

ijuin
Posts: 816
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby ijuin » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:09 am UTC

zombie_monkey wrote:A friend mentioned the other day that he feels awkward making smalltalk with women because he went to a sex-segregated school. I did a bit of a double-take because we don't have them in this country; he's Belgian. I didn't know they still existed in some places until I was a teengaer, probably, and I don't think I know anyone else who's been to one.

Therein lies the most obvious disadvantage of raising kids with insufficient contact with opposite-sex people their own age and social level--they reach adulthood and go out into the world with no idea how to interact with the opposite sex.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Transgender in a single-sex school

Postby leady » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:49 am UTC

I'm pretty sure that's just testosterone


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests