Trump presidency

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cphite
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:09 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
cphite wrote:The FBI director is one position out of several hundred that need to be filled, and that should have been filled months ago.

The FBI director is not one out of any set of positions that should have been filled months ago because it was filled months ago. Criticizing someone for not doing something that they did in fact do is not fair no matter how incompetent and corrupt they are.


You completely missed the point.

There are several hundred key positions that haven't been filled - that aren't even close to being filled - that should have been filled months ago. To be this far behind in filling key positions is a sign of serious incompetence on the part of this administration.

Regardless of how long it's been open, the FBI director is just one position. It frankly pales in comparison to the overall problem.

I'm not criticizing Trump for not filling the FBI director position; I'm criticizing him for the much larger problem, and refusing to give him a pass on the FBI director position just because it happens to be more recent.

A big part of the selling point for Trump - and the reason we were all supposed to overlook the vulgarity and narcissism and the rest of his bullshit - was that he could get things done. So far, he hasn't impressed on that front.

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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:14 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
idonno wrote:
cphite wrote:The FBI director is one position out of several hundred that need to be filled, and that should have been filled months ago.

The FBI director is not one out of any set of positions that should have been filled months ago because it was filled months ago. Criticizing someone for not doing something that they did in fact do is not fair no matter how incompetent and corrupt they are.

You completely missed the point.
There are several hundred key positions that haven't been filled - that aren't even close to being filled - that should have been filled months ago. To be this far behind in filling key positions is a sign of serious incompetence on the part of this administration.
Regardless of how long it's been open, the FBI director is just one position. It frankly pales in comparison to the overall problem.
I'm not criticizing Trump for not filling the FBI director position; I'm criticizing him for the much larger problem, and refusing to give him a pass on the FBI director position just because it happens to be more recent.
A big part of the selling point for Trump - and the reason we were all supposed to overlook the vulgarity and narcissism and the rest of his bullshit - was that he could get things done. So far, he hasn't impressed on that front.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/us/p ... hange.html
Here's one post that Trump's appointment has been really "efficient" with.
In the four months since he took office as the Environmental Protection Agency’s administrator, Scott Pruitt has moved to undo, delay or otherwise block more than 30 environmental rules, a regulatory rollback larger in scope than any other over so short a time in the agency’s 47-year history, according to experts in environmental law.

Mr. Pruitt’s supporters, including President Trump, have hailed his moves as an uprooting of the administrative state and a clearing of onerous regulations that have stymied American business. Environmental advocates have watched in horror as Mr. Pruitt has worked to disable the authority of the agency charged with protecting the nation’s air, water and public health.

But both sides agree: While much of Mr. Trump’s policy agenda is mired in legal and legislative delays, hampered by poor execution and overshadowed by the Russia investigations, the E.P.A. is acting. Mr. Pruitt, a former Oklahoma attorney general who built a career out of suing the agency he now leads, is moving effectively to dismantle the regulations and international agreements that stood as a cornerstone of President Barack Obama’s legacy.

“Just the number of environmental rollbacks in this time frame is astounding,” said Richard Lazarus, a professor of environmental law at Harvard. “Pruitt has come in with a real mission. He is much more organized, much more focused than the other cabinet-level officials, who have not really taken charge of their agencies. It’s very striking how much they’ve done.”

Since February, Mr. Pruitt has filed a proposal of intent to undo or weaken Mr. Obama’s climate change regulations, known as the Clean Power Plan. In late June, he filed a legal plan to repeal an Obama-era rule curbing pollution in the nation’s waterways. He delayed a rule that would require fossil fuel companies to rein in leaks of methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from oil and gas wells. He delayed the date by which companies must comply with a rule to prevent explosions and spills at chemical plants. And he reversed a ban on the use of a pesticide that the E.P.A.’s own scientists have said is linked to damage of children’s nervous systems.
Continue reading the main story

In a sign of both Mr. Pruitt’s influence in the White House and the high regard in which Mr. Trump holds him, he will take a leading role in devising the legal path to withdraw from the 194-nation Paris agreement on climate change, a job that would typically fall to lawyers at the State Department.
Scott Pruit is really effective...at poisoning the land. =(

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Jumble
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Jumble » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:15 pm UTC

Donald Trump posts video clip of him 'beating' CNN in wrestling. What bothers me is not so much the president of the United States promotes violence against anyone who citicises him (he's been doing that for 18 months and apparently he's still electable). It's more that he's now POTUS, and he really has nothing more important to do with his time? I'm living on a first terms basis with US policy in the Middle East and I promise you're not exactly doing well.
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idonno
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:45 pm UTC

cphite wrote:You completely missed the point.

There are several hundred key positions that haven't been filled - that aren't even close to being filled - that should have been filled months ago. To be this far behind in filling key positions is a sign of serious incompetence on the part of this administration.

I got that point. I got that point a while ago. In fact, I was already on that page before I read any of your posts. My point is that it doesn't have any bearing on the specific post being discussed.

trpmb6 posted about it being "pretty petty" to criticize Trump for the amount of time it has taken to replace Comey not the amount of time filling offices in general. Everything in that quote is about the single office which and was a response to KnightExemplar's specific criticism of how long it had taken to fill that specific post. It can be "pretty petty" to criticize Trump over the amount of time it is taking to replace Comey while being completely reasonable to criticize him over the amount of time it has taken to fill other offices. This was a very limited legitimate complaint against a very specific criticism and you are arguing against it as though it were a defense of a much broader set of issues.

Jumble wrote:It's more that he's now POTUS, and he really has nothing more important to do with his time?

To be fair, we might be better off with him not doing anything more important with his time.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Vahir » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:12 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:Donald Trump posts video clip of him 'beating' CNN in wrestling. What bothers me is not so much the president of the United States promotes violence against anyone who citicises him (he's been doing that for 18 months and apparently he's still electable). It's more that he's now POTUS, and he really has nothing more important to do with his time? I'm living on a first terms basis with US policy in the Middle East and I promise you're not exactly doing well.


I can't believe it's normal for the U.S. president to be posting memes through twitter. The man in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world has the social media presence of an edgy 10 year old. That's what really gets me.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:33 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:The man in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world has the social media presence of an edgy 10 year old. That's what really gets me.
He's just appealing to his audience. That's what gets me.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:56 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
Jumble wrote:Donald Trump posts video clip of him 'beating' CNN in wrestling. What bothers me is not so much the president of the United States promotes violence against anyone who citicises him (he's been doing that for 18 months and apparently he's still electable). It's more that he's now POTUS, and he really has nothing more important to do with his time? I'm living on a first terms basis with US policy in the Middle East and I promise you're not exactly doing well.


I can't believe it's normal for the U.S. president to be posting memes through twitter. The man in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world has the social media presence of an edgy 10 year old. That's what really gets me.


The subredit covering this topic has already pointed out that President Obama had on a couple of occasions posted meme's as well.

The funny thing is this gif will forever be stored in the national archives/Trump's presidential library since he posted it using the @POTUS handle.

The sad thing is how CNN handled this. I don't think there is any specific coercion claims against the individual who posted the original gif since he apologized to them and apparently put forth a promise not to do this again in exchange for keeping his name private, as opposed to CNN telling him to not post anything again or they'll release his name. What bothers me is this sets a line in the ground for future satire. CNN is essentially saying, if we don't like what you post about us we might use our media might to find out who you are and reveal your identity. That is a serious matter.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:04 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:The sad thing is how CNN handled this. I don't think there is any specific coercion claims against the individual who posted the original gif since he apologized to them and apparently put forth a promise not to do this again in exchange for keeping his name private, as opposed to CNN telling him to not post anything again or they'll release his name. What bothers me is this sets a line in the ground for future satire. CNN is essentially saying, if we don't like what you post about us we might use our media might to find out who you are and reveal your identity. That is a serious matter.


I do realize you'll have plenty of right-wing media to back up your claims across Washington Times, /r/TheDonald, Fox News, and Breitbart News. But I'm solidly calling "bullshit" on this allegation and your claims. Nothing against you personally, but your news sources are more or less bunk. (IE: They're news sources that likely also published stories on how Obama was a Muslim and/or from Kenya, and are clearly therefore biased)

If anyone wants to follow this internet story, just google "HanAssholeSolo". Watch the left-right divide in realtime. Our sources of information claim different things based not on facts, but loyalty to particular "camps" and political ideologies.

In any case, "HanAssholeSolo" has deleted his account and cannot be contacted. Only CNN knows who he is, and they're protecting his identity. Allegations of blackmail any which way are just that, allegations. And its damn important to realize that the media war of Breitbart / Fox vs CNN is under way. They're trying to discredit each other to get more views from you.

I don't like media "Doxxing" as much as anyone else. But no one has been Doxed here, and I don't see any proof of blackmail either. Just a slew of allegations by media organizations who are well-known for clickbait articles, right-wing propaganda... with a history of publishing 'The Mainstream-media is evil' stories.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:The sad thing is how CNN handled this. I don't think there is any specific coercion claims against the individual who posted the original gif since he apologized to them and apparently put forth a promise not to do this again in exchange for keeping his name private, as opposed to CNN telling him to not post anything again or they'll release his name. What bothers me is this sets a line in the ground for future satire. CNN is essentially saying, if we don't like what you post about us we might use our media might to find out who you are and reveal your identity. That is a serious matter.


I do realize you'll have plenty of right-wing media to back up your claims across Washington Times, /r/TheDonald, and Breitbart News. But I'm solidly calling "bullshit" on this allegation and your claims. Nothing against you personally, but your news sources are more or less bunk.

If anyone wants to follow this internet story, just google "HanAssholeSolo". Watch the left-right divide in realtime. Our sources of information claim different things based not on facts, but loyalty to particular "camps" and political ideologies.


Hereis a slate article for your viewing if you choose..

From the article:

There is also no evidence that the network blackmailed him: CNN says it made no deal of any kind with the man and that he had already apologized and retracted his posts before returning the network’s call.


I agree* with this.

*in so much that we only have one side of the story to go on.

What I take issue with is that CNN is publicly stating, if you do something like this, we have the power to find you and we are willing to expose you.

To be fair, I have not always been a fan of internet anonymity. I feel it tends to lead people to go further than they normally would in their normal public discourse. That being said, I don't think CNN has the right to be internet police and say knock it off or we'll expose you.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:18 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:What I take issue with is that CNN is publicly stating, if you do something like this, we have the power to find you and we are willing to expose you.

To be fair, I have not always been a fan of internet anonymity. I feel it tends to lead people to go further than they normally would in their normal public discourse. That being said, I don't think CNN has the right to be internet police and say knock it off or we'll expose you.


Spoilers: people will Dox you. If not CNN, then fucking Breitbart news will. If not them, then any tabloid (old-school tabloid: like The National Inquirer or whatever).

Its the power of an organization with lots of paid investigators (aka: Journalists). Their job is to find information then publish it to the wild. Its going to happen. Different organizations will have different amounts of morality when it comes to the situation (National Inquirer will straight up make up bullshit and then defend it with a team of high-powered lawyers, so little folk can't hope to take it to court without significant monetary investment). But that's the way the tabloids work.

The internet age hasn't changed a thing: aside from make more of these assholes. Yes, internet bullying and doxxing is an issue for our age. But CNN is not doing that. But seriously, doxing has been going on for literally years by various groups. It'd be nice if people like... you know... made a law against it or otherwise set up a group in the FBI to do something about it though.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:21 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:That being said, I don't think CNN has the right to be internet police and say knock it off or we'll expose you.


They sure do. You don't have to like or respect the network based on those threats, but claiming they don't have the right to expose the person who blatantly assaulted their interests? That's a wildly silly thing to say.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:24 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:That being said, I don't think CNN has the right to be internet police and say knock it off or we'll expose you.


They sure do. You don't have to like or respect the network based on those threats, but claiming they don't have the right to expose the person who blatantly assaulted their interests? That's a wildly silly thing to say.


Morality and legality are different.

On the internet, "Doxxing" someone is considered highly immoral. It'd be like if the moderators of this forum (who have the power) decided to publish your IP Address because they don't like your argument. If they worked through the log files on the forum well enough, they can find that information and possibly even narrow down the location where you likely live. There's an expectation for how moderators behave: generally with regards to banning and/or blocking you. But never "Doxxing".

Similarly: CNN has the power to get information on a massive scale. All news organizations have this power, as it is the natural result of building and leading a group of reporters. Reporters are good at getting information, and they are good at publishing information. We expect these powers to not be abused. If CNN demands retribution, there are appropriate channels for that that don't necessarily end with Doxxing.

We're all using pseudonyms on this forum after all. There's a degree of anonymity innate to the very discussion we're having right now. Breaking that trust of "anonymity" will cause us to go our separate ways and destroy the discussion we're having. Similarly, pealing back the "identities" of Reddit users would destroy the Reddit community itself, as well as the discussions that happen there. So its grossly important to keep identities hidden, even if you come across them.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:06 pm UTC

Interestingly, it appears few posters were deterred from this tactic. If it was CNN's goal to prevent such memes it backfired. Lots of new gifs showing CNN vs Trump in various fight scenes. My favorite one is Neo vs Morpheus.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm UTC

I don't think HAS did anything wrong here anyway. The video was a commentary on how trump fights the media, i'm completely ok with that. The only issue was trumps appropriation of the video, which put it in an entirely different context.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:16 pm UTC

speising wrote:I don't think HAS did anything wrong here anyway. The video was a commentary on how trump fights the media, i'm completely ok with that. The only issue was trumps appropriation of the video, which put it in an entirely different context.


That's why I feel like CNN's response was a bit childish. At face value it was a pretty lame gif. It's not like it took a ton of skill to make what he did. The explosion of higher quality gifs mimicking what HAS did is proof of that. I think its fair to say this backfired.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote: If it was CNN's goal to prevent such memes it backfired.


This whole boondoggle is the right-wing media just jerking off to the idea that the "mainstream media" doxxes people. MSM is the evils of the world. They destroy free speech, etc. etc. Click on this story to find out more!

-------

In other news, they want a distraction away from like... real issues. So... how about we talk about real fucking issues rather than media spats? Health Care Bill has stalled again this week for example. So the Senate is at best going to vote on it maybe... next week.

Which means August is just around the corner, which means the House and the Senate need to figure out how to raise the debt ceiling and write a new budget. What is the US's plan for North Korea? Which has literally just launched an official ICBM by the way...

Will our emperor Trump actually do shit about North Korea's successful ICBM test launch? Or will he fan the flames of the irrelevant Twitter war instead?

Now not only has China solidified their cross-Asian trade deal (which ignores the USA), Europe and Japan have joined in a new Trade Deal that ignored the USA also. Will Trump start making trade deals that include the US-winning? Or will he continue to destroy long-term trade deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership to satisfy his fervent base?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:33 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
trpmb6 wrote: If it was CNN's goal to prevent such memes it backfired.


This whole boondoggle is the right-wing media just jerking off to the idea that the "mainstream media" doxxes people. MSM is the evils of the world. They destroy free speech, etc. etc. Click on this story to find out more!

-------

In other news, they want a distraction away from like... real issues. So... how about we talk about real fucking issues rather than media spats? Health Care Bill has stalled again this week for example. So the Senate is at best going to vote on it maybe... next week.

Which means August is just around the corner, which means the House and the Senate need to figure out how to raise the debt ceiling and write a new budget. What is the US's plan for North Korea? Which has literally just launched an official ICBM by the way...

Will our emperor Trump actually do shit about North Korea's successful ICBM test launch? Or will he fan the flames of the irrelevant Twitter war instead?

Now not only has China solidified their cross-Asian trade deal (which ignores the USA), Europe and Japan have joined in a new Trade Deal that ignored the USA also. Will Trump start making trade deals that include the US-winning? Or will he continue to destroy long-term trade deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership to satisfy his fervent base?


North Korea is essentially being delegated out to the Pentagon. The only worry is if the North Korean attacks and Trump is forced into an actual decision. For now, the diplomats are handling it. (poorly or not, they aren't doing any worse than Obama).

Healthcare is sorta stalled, but the Republicans are trying very hard to avoid talking to their constituents. If Trump keeps distracting people, they may be able to sneak it through.

The Republicans essentially gave up world leadership to China when they opposed TPP. Trump is merely shoveling dirt on the grave. Now it's just a question of how quickly or slowly the US retreats from power. It'll be a player instead of THE player in global politics. There's an off chance that China's problems are much much worse then they appear, and they'll suffer a Japanese lost decade. But don't bet the world order on that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:44 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The Republicans essentially gave up world leadership to China when they opposed TPP. Trump is merely shoveling dirt on the grave. Now it's just a question of how quickly or slowly the US retreats from power. It'll be a player instead of THE player in global politics. There's an off chance that China's problems are much much worse then they appear, and they'll suffer a Japanese lost decade. But don't bet the world order on that.


Trump promised a lot of bilateral deals to make up for the cancellation of the TPP. That's the platform he ran on.

As it stands, we're getting the worst of both world. Trump has failed to initiate any trade deals with our partners, while China is taking marketshare in the world economy. Until Trump begins to get these magical "bilateral trade deals" in order, we're going to be fucked.

I'm not necessarily an expert on global trade policy. So I'm not sure if I can fully comment on the efficacy of "bilateral trade" vs "large-scale standardized trade deals" like the TPP. But if Trump isn't building trade deals at all, we're going to hopelessly fall behind. US Exports aren't going to rise until our diplomats convince other countries to buy our stuff. Its really that simple.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:36 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
sardia wrote:The Republicans essentially gave up world leadership to China when they opposed TPP. Trump is merely shoveling dirt on the grave. Now it's just a question of how quickly or slowly the US retreats from power. It'll be a player instead of THE player in global politics. There's an off chance that China's problems are much much worse then they appear, and they'll suffer a Japanese lost decade. But don't bet the world order on that.


Trump promised a lot of bilateral deals to make up for the cancellation of the TPP. That's the platform he ran on.

As it stands, we're getting the worst of both world. Trump has failed to initiate any trade deals with our partners, while China is taking marketshare in the world economy. Until Trump begins to get these magical "bilateral trade deals" in order, we're going to be fucked.

I'm not necessarily an expert on global trade policy. So I'm not sure if I can fully comment on the efficacy of "bilateral trade" vs "large-scale standardized trade deals" like the TPP. But if Trump isn't building trade deals at all, we're going to hopelessly fall behind. US Exports aren't going to rise until our diplomats convince other countries to buy our stuff. Its really that simple.

I agree, but I don't see how that's Trump's fault. Well, mostly not Trump's fault. We (Obama) couldn't get a trade deal through despite the concessions of countries afraid of China and the support of trade hesitant Democrats. We're in a scary new world where Republicans are in full retreat, and foreign policy will be from behind a gun. On the bright side, the odds of the president being an auotcrat is severely diminished. He's merely very corrupt, and corrosive.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote: On the bright side, the odds of the president being an auotcrat is severely diminished. He's merely very corrupt, and corrosive.


That doesn't make me feel any better though.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:25 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I'm not necessarily an expert on global trade policy. So I'm not sure if I can fully comment on the efficacy of "bilateral trade" vs "large-scale standardized trade deals" like the TPP.


Collective bargaining is better for the group, individual bargaining is better for whoever has the stronger bargaining position. Other than that, the only real difference, besides the specifics of the deals, is whether or not companies have to study different law to make deals with companies in different countries - from their perspective, the ideal is to have the same set of laws everywhere.

The assumption here is that since the US is a economic leader, they could force strong deals from anyone - however, that doesn't seem to hold water when you look at what's going on with TPP. The thing is, the US can't force any other country to sign a treaty, and if every other country signs a unified treaty and the US doesn't then it might make it less costly to deal with signatory countries and the rest of the world might be able to force the US to sign whatever they did anyway. And honestly, if there is such a strong advantage to us, then that means that it is much better for other countries to form an alliance like the EU where they all agree they will only negotiate collectively. So really, I'm not sure the US has a choice.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:01 am UTC

And honestly, if there is such a strong advantage to us, then that means that it is much better for other countries to form an alliance like the EU where they all agree they will only negotiate collectively.

Because such an alliance is easy, quick and not at all controversial! Just look at the EU. And all those other examples.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:47 am UTC

You don't need the political aspects, just the trade aspects. It's still not quick, but trade deals are something that are expected to last, and if it's really that much more favorable to the US that it is actually worth all the extra legislative overhead, then it is likely a fairly bad deal to them and it's worth the effort for them to organize.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:29 am UTC

Thesh wrote:You don't need the political aspects, just the trade aspects.
But the two are intertwined. In theory I suppose one could separate them, but I suspect that often political concessions are made for trade reasons, or trade concessions are made for political reasons, and when there are ten or twenty countries involved, things get complicated. Simple (perhaps simplistic) example: stability in the Middle East is good for the US. (It's arguably good for most of the rest of the world too, but that's a complication that is irrelevant to my simplistic analysis.) If we offer a trade deal with the Middle East in which we are a loser and the Arab countries gain, this can still be a net Good Thing because financially we don't have to build as many bombs and jet fighters, and politically we rise in stature in the Arab world (as a non-asshole, who might not be such a hated enemy. This deal could also pre-empt a deal with other countries which would ultimately be worse for us. It's not all that unlike companies buying startups for a loss, even if they end up eating them. And to the extent that political problems are caused or exacerbated by economic issues (see the causes of WWI, and subsequent US behavior after WWII), economic action is very much political action. You can't separate them.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:40 am UTC

Not sure how that's relevant when we are talking about countries getting together to sign massive multinational trade deals, and Trump wants to stop.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:00 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Not sure how that's relevant when we are talking about countries getting together to sign massive multinational trade deals, and Trump wants to stop.


It was a tangential hypothetical on general trade policy.

I think ucim is talking about Trump's "American First" perspective. Perhaps it is better to "lose" in trade if the Middle East became more stable. Which is a contradiction of Trump's stated goals.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:34 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Perhaps it is better to "lose" in trade if the Middle East became more stable.
Exactly. This is an example of the intertwining of trade and political goals and methods. It doesn't matter whether it goes with or contradicts any particular fake president's goals, the point still stands that political actions have trade consequences, and trade actions have political consequences. Therefore, you often can accomplish {trade|political} goals by taking {political|trade} actions, which have the added advantage of allowing the perp to claim one goal while accomplishing another.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:36 pm UTC

On a side note: just remember that Trump asked for all the names, addresses, and the (last four) social security numbers of every voter in the previous election.

Approximately 14 States have replied "Fuck you Trump", as they should have. 20 States have complied with the request, which is a disturbingly high number IMO.

Officials had strong but mixed reactions to a Wednesday letter from Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, the vice chair of the Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity, asking for suggestions to improve election security but also for a range of voter data, including dates of birth and partial social security numbers.



Trump has claimed without evidence since winning November’s election that it was “rigged,” either by voter impersonation or illegal ballots cast by undocumented immigrants. Trump swept the Electoral College in November’s election, but was nearly 3 million votes shy of Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in the popular vote.

He created the commission to investigate practices “that could lead to improper voter registrations, improper voting, fraudulent voter registrations and fraudulent voting.”

All states are required to keep voter rolls, but the kind of information collected from voters varies by state. Public voter data is available to political parties and organizing groups, usually for a fee.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Approximately 14 States have replied "Fuck you Trump", as they should have. 20 States have complied with the request, which is a disturbingly high number IMO.


Looking at that link a lot of the "complies" are only giving what is already publicly available. Don't really have a big issue with that, personally. It looks like only 2 (New Hampshire and Texas) stated they will flat out comply.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:27 pm UTC

On one hand I don't see much of an issue with it from the standpoint that all this information is in some form available to the government already.

What I take issue with is that it would essentially give the Republican party a huge list of registered voters.

If there were some check on this, via some congressional committee's oversight I don't think I have much objection to it, as long as all of the data would be made available to both sides of the aisle. If for nothing else than the simple reason that I want to put a nail in the coffin on this whole election fraud nonsense. Let's prove voter fraud isn't widespread and move on.

I would like to note that some states already do some sharing of this type of information. I know Colorado and Kansas have in the past compared voter rolls and found at least one case of a man voting in both states. Ironically it was a Republican (Kris Kobach still pursued prosecution mind you). See Here I'm fairly certain Kobach ended up only finding one case of this between Colorado and Kansas so I doubt it is very widespread. Edit: Apparently Kobach has prosecuted 7 cases of voter fraud, 6 being republicans. Not sure how many were between Colorado and Kansas but 7 total per that article.

This man's case brings up a separate issue I'd like to ask you all about. Maybe this isn't quite the right topic thread for it, but I'll ask anyways. This man was charged for voting in two separate states. He claims he only voted on local issues and not national issues. My thought is, why shouldn't he have local representation in both locations? Certainly the local officials in both jurisdictions will impact this man's life. The flipside is, what if you owned property in jurisdictions all over the United States? Seems like someone could abuse that given enough money. Perhaps you could say there is some sort of diminishing returns. But that's just messy. I guess that's why they force you to stick to one location.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:40 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:This man's case brings up a separate issue I'd like to ask you all about. Maybe this isn't quite the right topic thread for it, but I'll ask anyways. This man was charged for voting in two separate states. He claims he only voted on local issues and not national issues. My thought is, why shouldn't he have local representation in both locations? Certainly the local officials in both jurisdictions will impact this man's life. The flipside is, what if you owned property in jurisdictions all over the United States? Seems like someone could abuse that given enough money. Perhaps you could say there is some sort of diminishing returns. But that's just messy. I guess that's why they force you to stick to one location.


This is an interesting question. Clearly voting for national things (President) in multiple states makes no sense. Ostensibly, voting for local officials in all the local areas you live makes some logical sense. But, it provides spreading of ideology into many areas as well, just by virtue of having a residence there. This seems like it could well be abused. If they really want representation, then the vote should be weighed proportionally to how long the person was in residence in each location, throughout the year. That of course results in ridiculous fractions of votes and would be nearly impossible to enforce or verify. So for practicality you let the people vote in one place (ideally the place the spend the most time) and tough luck for all their other residences.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:47 pm UTC

Except if you did that then you would not be able to have anonymous ballots. Even if the ballot only printed their share of the vote, it will be pretty obvious when fractional ballots make up a tiny share of your ballots.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:22 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:If there were some check on this, via some congressional committee's oversight I don't think I have much objection to it, as long as all of the data would be made available to both sides of the aisle. If for nothing else than the simple reason that I want to put a nail in the coffin on this whole election fraud nonsense. Let's prove voter fraud isn't widespread and move on.


Did releasing Obama's birth certificate stop the birthers?

Hint: No. It didn't. Anti-Vaxxers, 9/11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers... no matter what information you release, you can't convince the crazies out there of the facts.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:36 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:If there were some check on this, via some congressional committee's oversight I don't think I have much objection to it, as long as all of the data would be made available to both sides of the aisle. If for nothing else than the simple reason that I want to put a nail in the coffin on this whole election fraud nonsense. Let's prove voter fraud isn't widespread and move on.


Did releasing Obama's birth certificate stop the birthers?

Hint: No. It didn't. Anti-Vaxxers, 9/11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers... no matter what information you release, you can't convince the crazies out there of the facts.

Right, the chain of events is that the commissions will fine names of people who have died, and match them to names + birthdays of that have voted. Then they strip them from the voter rolls, and leave it up to the disenfranchised to get themselves reinstated. It's a very shoot first, apologize later work. Some of these commissions purposely set filters to cast a wide net, as opposed to minimizing false positives (aka voter disenfranchisement).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:20 pm UTC


An aside on that aside: I'd missed that he wanted the names and addresses, and was wondering what the last four digits of the social security number were for. I was hoping they were going to do some interesting statistics to detect fraud, like the way you can detect made-up data by looking at the distribution of the first digit. Obviously Trump wouldn't know a probability distribution if it bit him on the arse ("I'm actually very good at statistics, by the way. The best.") but somebody else might.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:41 am UTC

orthogon wrote:

An aside on that aside: I'd missed that he wanted the names and addresses, and was wondering what the last four digits of the social security number were for. I was hoping they were going to do some interesting statistics to detect fraud, like the way you can detect made-up data by looking at the distribution of the first digit. Obviously Trump wouldn't know a probability distribution if it bit him on the arse ("I'm actually very good at statistics, by the way. The best.") but somebody else might.


... That sounds an awful lot like science there, and we're not going to have any of that around this administration by gosh golly darnit!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby paulisa » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:57 am UTC

Chen wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:This man's case brings up a separate issue I'd like to ask you all about. Maybe this isn't quite the right topic thread for it, but I'll ask anyways. This man was charged for voting in two separate states. He claims he only voted on local issues and not national issues. My thought is, why shouldn't he have local representation in both locations? Certainly the local officials in both jurisdictions will impact this man's life. The flipside is, what if you owned property in jurisdictions all over the United States? Seems like someone could abuse that given enough money. Perhaps you could say there is some sort of diminishing returns. But that's just messy. I guess that's why they force you to stick to one location.


This is an interesting question. Clearly voting for national things (President) in multiple states makes no sense. Ostensibly, voting for local officials in all the local areas you live makes some logical sense. But, it provides spreading of ideology into many areas as well, just by virtue of having a residence there. This seems like it could well be abused. If they really want representation, then the vote should be weighed proportionally to how long the person was in residence in each location, throughout the year. That of course results in ridiculous fractions of votes and would be nearly impossible to enforce or verify. So for practicality you let the people vote in one place (ideally the place the spend the most time) and tough luck for all their other residences.


In my country, some counties allow part-time residents to vote on local issues. Local and national issues have separate ballots, and part-time residents are only given the local one at the polling station. However, they must have declared which is their main residence when registering; you can have one main residence and multiple other residences. There has been some abuse of this by politicians who register their families in several places within the same county, allowing them multiple votes on the same issues.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:52 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:

An aside on that aside: I'd missed that he wanted the names and addresses, and was wondering what the last four digits of the social security number were for. I was hoping they were going to do some interesting statistics to detect fraud, like the way you can detect made-up data by looking at the distribution of the first digit. Obviously Trump wouldn't know a probability distribution if it bit him on the arse ("I'm actually very good at statistics, by the way. The best.") but somebody else might.


You could also use the last four of the SSN to validate the names against other known records.

Frankly, I wouldn't care if my state gave them my name and address; all that tells them is that I'm registered to vote. Even the date of birth and other identification information really isn't an issue for me...

What's bothersome is the party affiliation and - worst of all - the voting history. Fuck that, especially the second one.

Granted, from a purely data analytics perspective it could be used legitimately to detect fraud - for example if a specific geographical area saw a very large number of people voting against their previous history, that might be a red flag. But that's outweighed by it being none of their frikkin' business - especially considering the current administration.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:35 pm UTC

If it helps, "voting history" only indicates whether you voted in a particular election, not how you cast your vote. Elections are still conducted by Australian ballot in the United States.

(That's why there's such a kerfuffle in some jurisdictions about people posting photos of their completed ballots, or initialing changes or corrections. After confirming that an individual is, indeed, eligible to vote in a certain district, all identifying info is supposed to be separated from that ballot before votes are counted.)


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