Trump presidency

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morriswalters
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:33 am UTC

sardia wrote:*Yea, I'm saying a faster growing economy is more important than the desires of a select few.
Your probably right, but you shouldn't be surprised that the select few might try to cook you in a stew. The thing about being a statistical fact is that people aren't statistical.

It also seems if you are saying that Obama wasn't a good president.
sardia wrote:Long term, the US is pretty fucked with Obama at the helm.
That should be a was rather than an is. Did I read that wrong?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:43 am UTC

I think Sardia was trying to say the US was fucked even with Obama at the helm.

I... disagree. The US has a large number of longstanding structural problems, but a) they are fixable, if extremely difficult to fix (or they wouldn't be problems), and b) Obama was not the one who could fix them, in part because he got extra opposition simply for being black, in part because he wasn't actually as competent as his supporters seemed to think.

Of course, we now have is even less competent than the prior one so he wouldn't even be able to fix the problems if wasn't actively avoiding the solutions in the first place.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:15 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I think Sardia was trying to say the US was fucked even with Obama at the helm.
I... disagree. The US has a large number of longstanding structural problems, but a) they are fixable, if extremely difficult to fix (or they wouldn't be problems), and b) Obama was not the one who could fix them, in part because he got extra opposition simply for being black, in part because he wasn't actually as competent as his supporters seemed to think.

Of course, we now have is even less competent than the prior one so he wouldn't even be able to fix the problems if wasn't actively avoiding the solutions in the first place.

Sorry, I wasn't sure how to phrase it on my phone, so I just posted it. Yes, I mean the problems of the US are pretty grave. Even with above average leaders like Obama, it would have been a struggle to fix at best and impossible at worse. With Trump at the helm, he keeps pouring gas on the fire, except he's stealing the gas from the strategic petroleum reserve.

My problem is that the fixes for the longstanding structural problems not only were rejected, but they were rejected by Democrats(the people who were objectively more competent then Trump). My example here is immigration. Immigration is like a miracle drug, especially since it solves nearly everything you can think of. Aging work force? Take the best of the young, and educated refugees from an entire war torn region. Not enough innovation? Too stupid? Give smart people permanent residency if they work as slave labor in research labs, which they pay YOU for the privilege. Too much crime? Flood the area with immigrants, they're too scared to commit crimes unlike the entitled citizens. Is your town suffering from white flight/rust belt? Pack it with immigrants to reinforce any cracks and support the tax base.

If both sides have given up on solving the problem, you're in deep shit.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:21 am UTC

Depends which immigrants. I mean, it hasn't worked for... hmm... no they've done well, no not them either they are alright, umm... how about the, no they do better than... err...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 am UTC

Yeah I thought so.
sardia wrote:Flood the area with immigrants, they're too scared to commit crimes unlike the entitled citizens.
Somebody forgot to tell the Hondurans.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:13 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Depends which immigrants. I mean, it hasn't worked for...
... the Mohicans? It seems immigration's a good thing as long as the immigrants are not white and devoutly Christian Europeans.
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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:27 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Depends which immigrants. I mean, it hasn't worked for...
... the Mohicans? It seems immigration's a good thing as long as the immigrants are not white and devoutly Christian Europeans.

Fair point, immigration sucked for native Americans, and I can sorta get the fear that it might happen to white people... Except that it's completely unrelated.

Why would Europeans and or white immigrants fare worse? Like the Irish or poles?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

Europeans coming to the Americas weren't so much immigrating as invading.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:31 pm UTC

Yeah, historically invasions have tended to not particularly benefit the people being invaded.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

And I guess the difference there is whether the country people are moving to has a choice in the matter (and therefore, on the relative strength of the target country). Invaders don't give you a choice; you are at their mercy. Immigrants, on the other hand, are at your mercy. And much of Sardia's analysis of the benefits of immigration directly depends on the immigrants being at the mercy of their new host country.

ETA: On a different topic, after Trump's recent tweet in response to Wolff's book, wherein he describes himself as "like, really smart", I'm starting to get the feeling that Trump is playing a caricature of himself as a television character. Now that we have confirmation that he really didn't want to be president and was just running for the publicity, I wonder if he's just using his entire time in office as a publicity stunt, and everything he does is a (mostly improv) performance just trying to stir up controversy and attention for himself. A troll presidency, if you will.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

Why are you making up convoluted reasons as to Trump's activity? He's an old man, who subsists on cable TV, greasy fast food, and yes men. What's wrong with that explanation?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do ... -midterms/
After doing some math, turnout advantage is negated by presidential anchor dragging down the white House occupant's party. Which is impressive that the GOP turnout can even do that. TLDR don't assume turnout will be the same in 2018.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:53 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Why are you making up convoluted reasons as to Trump's activity? He's an old man, who subsists on cable TV, greasy fast food, and yes men. What's wrong with that explanation?

That is a fine explanation, and the one I've been running with so far, but that "like, really smart" line just suddenly triggered a Poe's Law warning in my mind. It's so ridiculously un-self-aware that it sounds like something a TV caricature of a person like Trump would say for laughs. Which, with the rest of what we know about him, sounds actually plausible. We already know that he is a TV personality who has played a (different) caricature of himself for years. We now know (thanks to Wolff, though most of us already suspected) that he wasn't actually serious about wanting to be president and it was all just a part of the big reality TV show that is his life. It just suddenly makes me wonder how much of what he says is serious and how much is just said for the camera with a shit-eating grin, just for the publicity it will generate. Maybe he knows just how stupid "like, really smart" sounds, and thinks it will be funny, and get people talking about him.

Or he could really be that dumb, which I wouldn't put past him either. I think he is genuinely dumb one way or another, but that doesn't preclude him playing with that perception just for the camera sometimes too. In any case it's still terribly dangerous to have him in the position that he's in. It's just a possibility that occurred to me.

It reminds me a lot, now that I think of it, of the "lol jk" culture of places like 4chan, who love him. Say outrageous shit, which you don't really mean, except when you do, but even then claim that it's all a big joke and nobody should take you seriously, except when they should, but you'll never know when that is.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:54 am UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/07/steve-bannon-treason-donald-trump-jr-michael-wolff-fire-fury
Looks like Bannon figured out he has no allies nor any income stream. He's saying he misspoke when he said Trump was treasonous, he meant manafort, which totally sounds like Trump...
If this doesn't work, maybe Bannon will have to sell himself as a snitch on *gasp* CNN.

He says Manafort is unpatriotic and that Trump Jr. is patriotic even though they both attended the same meeting. Before you freak out about that, you may want to read this:

The statement issued also contained an extraordinary explanation for Bannon’s remark that the Trump Tower meeting had been “treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad shit”.

He said: “My comments about the meeting with Russian nationals came from my life experiences as a naval officer stationed aboard a destroyer whose main mission was to hunt Soviet submarines to my time at the Pentagon during the Reagan years, when our focus was the defeat of ‘the evil empire’, and to making films about Reagan’s war against the Soviets and Hillary Clinton’s involvement in selling uranium to them.”
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:32 am UTC

Not Trump, but politics.

NC districts ruled unconstitutional due to partisan gerrymandering

Very exciting. I'm guessing the NC GOP's inevitable appeal will lead the case to join up with the Wisconsin one. More importantly, the federal court decision requests new maps by late January, and if those aren't satisfactory, they will assign their own.

The racial gerrymandering case has already led to an outside party having to redraw one particular district. I'm not sure how these two cases will interact now.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:48 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
sardia wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/07/steve-bannon-treason-donald-trump-jr-michael-wolff-fire-fury
Looks like Bannon figured out he has no allies nor any income stream. He's saying he misspoke when he said Trump was treasonous, he meant manafort, which totally sounds like Trump...
If this doesn't work, maybe Bannon will have to sell himself as a snitch on *gasp* CNN.

He says Manafort is unpatriotic and that Trump Jr. is patriotic even though they both attended the same meeting. Before you freak out about that, you may want to read this:

The statement issued also contained an extraordinary explanation for Bannon’s remark that the Trump Tower meeting had been “treasonous, or unpatriotic, or bad shit”.

He said: “My comments about the meeting with Russian nationals came from my life experiences as a naval officer stationed aboard a destroyer whose main mission was to hunt Soviet submarines to my time at the Pentagon during the Reagan years, when our focus was the defeat of ‘the evil empire’, and to making films about Reagan’s war against the Soviets and Hillary Clinton’s involvement in selling uranium to them.”

What's really interesting is just how much the never trumpers have collapsed, and just how powerful Trump is as a political force right now. The base and the donors all decided that Trump>Bannon, so the stooge ended up running the whole show*. I didn't expect Bannon to be outed, but then again, I didn't expect Trump's family to be this stupid. So I feel for Bannon's plight, there's only so much incompetence you can take. Sorta...well as much as you can for a nazi sympathizer.

*This means nothing for 2018 midterms, but it speaks volumes about who is in charge until the campaigning heats up.

It's funny, people act like Trump is the worst thing in the world like it's new, but what distinguishes Trump-Bad from just plain old GOP bad often gets lost. The biggest Trump-bad that is unique to Trump would be corruption, Russia, incompetence, mental disengagement, and temperament(unfit for office levels). List is in no particular order. Like if Pence, or McConnell were in charge, most of the bad things would still happen, but the foreign policy stuff wouldn't be as fucked, nor staffing at the federal government.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:39 pm UTC

Cam you really blame the never-trumpers for the despair? Their party chose the nominee for them, a nominee who 8 years prior failed against a nobody with no serious accomplishments, and in spite of a million republicans voting for her (supposedly) still couldn't squeak out a win. And then she lost, popular vote or not. And the Orange Julius basically did absolutely everything that should have ended his career, yet he can't be kicked out. Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Cam you really blame the never-trumpers for the despair? Their party chose the nominee for them, a nominee who 8 years prior failed against a nobody with no serious accomplishments, and in spite of a million republicans voting for her (supposedly) still couldn't squeak out a win. And then she lost, popular vote or not. And the Orange Julius basically did absolutely everything that should have ended his career, yet he can't be kicked out. Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown.

I'm pretty sure sardia is talking about a Republican faction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Trump_movement

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:06 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's funny, people act like Trump is the worst thing in the world like it's new, but what distinguishes Trump-Bad from just plain old GOP bad often gets lost. The biggest Trump-bad that is unique to Trump would be corruption, Russia, incompetence, mental disengagement, and temperament(unfit for office levels). List is in no particular order. Like if Pence, or McConnell were in charge, most of the bad things would still happen, but the foreign policy stuff wouldn't be as fucked, nor staffing at the federal government.

Trump has created an administration where the skills and abilities necessary to preform a job are not requirements for that job. In addition, Trump is creating a society where truth does not have intrinsic value. The next 3 runner ups for the Republican nomination would not do these things.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:48 pm UTC

US President Donald Trump has reportedly lashed out at immigrants in a foul-mouthed Oval Office outburst.

"Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" Mr Trump told lawmakers on Thursday, according to the Washington Post.

The remark was reportedly in reference to people from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries.

The White House did not deny the comment, which has been confirmed by other US media.

"Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people," a White House statement said.

Mr Trump's remark reportedly came as lawmakers from both parties visited him to propose a bipartisan immigration deal.

Before the alleged outburst, Democratic Senator Richard Durbin had reportedly been discussing US temporary residency permits that are granted to citizens of countries experiencing strife such as natural disasters, war or epidemics.

According to the Post, Mr Trump told lawmakers the US should instead be welcoming migrants from countries like Norway

The New York Times reported three weeks ago that Mr Trump had said Haitians "all have Aids" during a June meeting about immigration.

He's only saying what everyone's thinking!! or something

link

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:41 am UTC

Donald Trump cancels February visit to UK
Like a six-year-old, his explanation is "I never wanted to open it anyway. It's a stupid ugly building and I hate it. Obama chose it and he smells"

Edit: too bad, I was already working on my placard for the protest. Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly made an unannounced visit, like presidents do to other hostile countries...
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:04 am UTC

If he wants to pose on a carrier deck under a "mission accomplished" banner off our coast, insist he land the plane himself.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:27 am UTC

Sableagle wrote:If he wants to pose on a carrier deck under a "mission accomplished" banner off our coast, insist he land the plane himself.

He's actually really great at landing planes. He's better at landing planes than you'd understand.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:51 am UTC

That's because ...
Image
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:13 am UTC

From Trump's latest WSJ interview:
Trump “acknowledged that Pyongyang may be trying to separate Washington and Seoul. ‘If I were them, I would try,’ he said. ‘The difference is I’m president, other people aren’t,’ he said. ‘And I know more about wedges than any human being that’s lived.’”

He knows more about wedges than any human being that's lived.

Like, how did the interviewer keep a straight face while interviewing him? A massive botox injection before the interview?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:18 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Trump has created an administration where the skills and abilities necessary to preform a job are not requirements for that job. In addition, Trump is creating a society where truth does not have intrinsic value. The next 3 runner ups for the Republican nomination would not do these things.

Government being fucked due to staffing should include lack of job skills. Good point about lowering the bar for acceptable behavior.
Btw, Trump's approval rating is creeping up over the week. I'm guessing the tax bill over the economy but it's worrying. However, 2018 comes first before we deal with the spectre of a not (incredibly unpopular Trump.)
PS yes never Trumper are Republicans. Unless you are referring to Palin...

Edit: we shouldn't discount the possibility that a stronger economy will cause voters to forgive Republicans like corruptuser mentioned. Statistically it's unlikely at this point, but still could happen. (538 says mid terms polling usually goes down from here.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

In defense of the Orange one *hurk*, did he refer to the people themselves as shitty people, or just their countries? Because a country continuously producing refugees isn't the sign of good things. It's a crass and undiplomatic description, one that should not be on the tongue of a leader, but it's not wrong.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:18 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Donald Trump cancels February visit to UK
Like a six-year-old, his explanation is "I never wanted to open it anyway. It's a stupid ugly building and I hate it. Obama chose it and he smells"

BTW the building was approved by the Bush administration.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:41 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
US President Donald Trump has reportedly lashed out at immigrants in a foul-mouthed Oval Office outburst.

"Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" Mr Trump told lawmakers on Thursday, according to the Washington Post.

The remark was reportedly in reference to people from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries.

[snip]

link

Donald Trump denies using the phrase 'shithole countries' in immigration talks

Edited to capitalize the acronym DACA, because The Guardian can't seem to capitalize acronyms:
Early on Friday, he denied the derogatory language. “The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used,” he tweeted, using an acronym for a program to protect young undocumented immigrants. “What was really tough was the outlandish proposal made – a big setback for DACA!”

He later added: “Never said anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country. Never said ‘take them out.’ Made up by Dems. I have a wonderful relationship with Haitians. Probably should record future meetings – unfortunately, no trust!”

But senator Dick Durbin, a Democrat was in the meeting, contradicted him in to local Chicago press on Friday morning. He said the president “in the course of his comments said things which were hateful, vile and racist”.

“He said these hate-filled things, and he said them repeatedly,” Durbin said.

“I cannot believe that in the history of the White House and the Oval Office, any president has ever spoken the words that I personally heard our president speak yesterday,” he continued. “I’ve seen the comments in the press and I’ve not read one of them that’s inaccurate.”

The Republican senator Jeff Flake also contradicted the president, tweeting, “the words used by the President, as related to me directly following the meeting by those in attendance, were not ‘tough,’ they were abhorrent and repulsive.”

In any situation, whose version of reality is more likely to be accurate--Trump's, or everyone else's'?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

The problem is, the media was reporting on the "shithole countries" part, not the part about getting rid of the immigrants part. It makes it seem like making mountains out of molehills, because quite frankly, the very fact that the country is continuously producing refugees means that the country in question isn't Narnia.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The problem is, the media was reporting on the "shithole countries" part, not the part about getting rid of the immigrants part. It makes it seem like making mountains out of molehills, because quite frankly, the very fact that the country is continuously producing refugees means that the country in question isn't Narnia.

The important part is why he insisted on not letting Africans in, the remark on getting Norwegians (read as white), the denial he said it (he knows it's a bad thing to say). Conservatives who were there aren't admitting Trump said it, and the rest are split into different camps. The racists ones like he insulted them (and doesn't want them), the willful ignorance one are insist it's fake news, and the Lily gloved ones who are shocked a racist would be dumb enough to tell their true opinions. Oh, and some I assume are well meaning people who want better immigration/scared low wage compliant employees.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

Then yes, it's terrible. But you have to lead with "Trump states he wants no more black people" not "Trump calls countries that people literally risk their life to escape a mean name".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:59 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Then yes, it's terrible. But you have to lead with "Trump states he wants no more black people" not "Trump calls countries that people literally risk their life to escape a mean name".

I dunno. If he really did say that all Haitians have AIDS, his contempt isn't for these countries but literally for the people who inhabit them.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

Why do we keep accepting refugees from all of these countries that keep generating refugees? Why don't we accept more refugees from places that don't have refugees to accept, like Norway?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:22 pm UTC

I always found it to be that weird combination of hilarious and horrifying how the US treated refugees from Cuba and Haiti so differently. It's funny because there isn't even an attempt to hide the racism, and horrifying because blatant racism. Hilarifying? Horrarious?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:08 pm UTC

Here's the official White House video of the bipartisan meeting Trump held at the White House a few days ago.

At 3:09 Trump repeats, regarding the visa lottery system, his frequent complaint that nefarious "countries" are not sending their "best" as immigrants.

...Cancel the lottery program. They call it "visa lottery." I just call it "lottery." Where countries come in and they put names in a hopper. They''re not givin' you their best names. Common sense means they're not givin' you their best names. They're givin' you people that they don't want. And then we take them outta the lottery. And where they do it by hand, where they put the hand in a bowl, and probably what's in their hand are the worst of the worst. But they put people that they don't want into a lottery. And the United States takes those people.

Yes, I know that Trump never met a superlative that he didn't like. But in this case, to me, "the worst of the worst" doesn't seem like just a superlative. It implies that those countries are "the worst" to begin with, so that people with that national origin are likely to be shit produced by a shithole place. And then he says that we're getting "the worst" of those people.

Whether or not he actually used the word "shithole" off the record a few days later, it seems consistent with his on-record vibe.

Basically, he starts with the assumption that people from a certain country are no good, and then he goes on to say that we're getting the worst of that no-good country's people.

The definition of prejudice is to use things like national origin to pre-judge people. This is what Trump has done constantly, even if he occasionally waters down his comments about Mexico sending us rapists with a hasty "and also some good people" tacked on at the end.

His base loves these public demonstrations of Trump's prejudice, because it's a prejudice flattering to the superiority of their own whiteness.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:35 pm UTC

And to top it all off, he actually thinks governments are entering their citizens in the lottery and not, you know, the people themselves. So he's racist and completely stupid.

Which is unsurprising.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:46 pm UTC

I'm surprised there's no recording of Trump cursing out Haitians. Since Trump does nothing but deny with Republicans covering for him, video of him is the only thing visceral enough to force an apology.

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eran_rathan
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:49 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I'm surprised there's no recording of Trump cursing out Haitians. Since Trump does nothing but deny with Republicans covering for him, video of him is the only thing visceral enough to force an apology.


but if they don't play it on Fox 'News', he can claim it never happened.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:45 pm UTC

He's just pissed that all the Haitians that work in his buildings want to be paid.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:46 pm UTC

What really rankles is that his base looks at outrageous public statements like this, and believes that Trump is actually putting Americans' needs first.

But back in November, during a week in which he was incessantly saying "buy American, hire American," news broke that his Mar-a-Lago resort had been granted 70 temporary foreign worker visas for maids, cooks, and servers--up from the previous year's visas.

Newsweek wrote:[A]lthough the president has previously argued it is difficult to find workers to staff his exclusive Mar-a-Lago resort, nonprofit job placement agency CareerSource Palm Beach County said there were plenty of workers based inside the U.S. who could take on the roles.

"We currently have 5,136 qualified candidates in Palm Beach County for various hospitality positions listed in the Employ Florida state jobs database," CareerSource spokesman Tom Veenstra told the Palm Beach Post.

Once again, Trump's policy isn't "America First." It's "Trump First."


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