Trump presidency

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Weeks
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:29 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Short version from memory is that it's best if everyone has heard refutations of the falsehoods and as such become inoculated to their persuasive power
This should happen in school and at home, your kids should already feel in their hearts that minorities are people too BEFORE getting to college, Richard Spencer should not exist.

Pfhorrest wrote:Use the Nazi's desire to speak their hate as an opportunity to elaborate on why they're wrong in every way.
Mill wrote that in 1859, it's been over 100 years. That minorities don't want to be murdered wholesale or sent to concentration camps should be self-evident in tyool 2018. This is a failure of white people to give enough of a shit, collectively, not a lack of effort by those affected to be instructive enough.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:36 am UTC

Weeks wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Short version from memory is that it's best if everyone has heard refutations of the falsehoods and as such become inoculated to their persuasive power
This should happen in school and at home, your kids should already feel in their hearts that minorities are people too BEFORE getting to college, Richard Spencer should not exist.

Pfhorrest wrote:Use the Nazi's desire to speak their hate as an opportunity to elaborate on why they're wrong in every way.
Mill wrote that in 1859, it's been over 100 years. That minorities don't want to be murdered wholesale or sent to concentration camps should be self-evident in tyool 2018.

Agreed on both counts that that's how things should be, but evidently they aren't that way, and we're discussing what to do about that.

This is a failure of white people to give enough of a shit, collectively, not a lack of effort by those affected to be instructive enough.

I guess it's an example of my own implicit bias here, but I was actually picturing white people in my head giving the post-Nazi-speech reason-why-those-guys-suck lecture. Basically imagining white people telling other white people why not to listen to those white supremacists. Of course in reality it would be better to include those affected in such efforts, but I was basically imagining white people collectively giving more of a shit (and acting on it) when suggesting that. (And thinking on it now, as a matter of persuasion it would probably be more effective to have white people doing the anti-Nazi lecturing to the people who showed up to listen to the white supremacists speak, as the message then feels more like it's coming from their own in-group rather than an out-group).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:53 am UTC

Not helping things is that non-democracies and pseudi-democracies spend fortunes on conspiracy propaganda in order to sow dissent and undermine the central governments legitimacy, and this makes it easier for the nutjobs to take root.

To be fair, fully-fledged democracies do this too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:31 pm UTC

But rarely to other full fledged democracies.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:38 pm UTC

I think it's more a case of 'allies don't do it to each other' than 'non-democracies being worse offenders than democracies'.

Does Russia 'spend fortunes on conspiracy propaganda in order to sow dissent and undermine the central governments legitimacy' inside China? Not that I'm aware of. I think it's just mostly normal spying (ie. information gathering), which allied democracies do against each other too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:21 pm UTC

China doesn't have free speech and so they can squish all propaganda campaigns like ants. Hell, many people in China aren't aware of Tiananmen Square.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:One of my family's proudest moments was when my great-grandpa punched Father Coughlin in the face. Coughlin was a neo-Nazi, but before the Nazis themselves were really a major thing. So that's what, a paleo-Nazi? Point is, if my great grandpa was right to punch a paleo-Nazi in the face, I'm not going to say it isn't right for someone today to punch neo-Nazis. Punch away!

The term would be Nazi sympathizer.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:So you're saying Nazis should be allowed to have a platform.


I would prefer Nazis not spew their garbage in public; and I completely support the right of of people to ignore them or dispute what they have to say; in fact I encourage people to do those things. I also support the right of venues to refuse to allow Nazis to participate, of property owners to refuse them access to speak, and so forth.

What I do not support is government making it illegal for them to speak, or for mobs to use violence or threats of violence to stop them from speaking. They have a Constitutionally protected right to speak, no matter how utterly abhorrent or stupid what they're saying happens to be. As long as they're not actively inciting violence, or otherwise directly causing a danger to someone, their speech is protected.

Once we start down that path, it is a relatively small leap from "Nazis" to anyone saying anything that the government (or the mob) doesn't agree with. And frankly, that's a more serious threat to a free society than whatever bullshit the Nazis are saying.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm UTC

cphite wrote:I would prefer Nazis not spew their garbage in public; and I completely support the right of of people to ignore them or dispute what they have to say; in fact I encourage people to do those things. I also support the right of venues to refuse to allow Nazis to participate, of property owners to refuse them access to speak, and so forth.

What I do not support is government making it illegal for them to speak, or for mobs to use violence or threats of violence to stop them from speaking. They have a Constitutionally protected right to speak, no matter how utterly abhorrent or stupid what they're saying happens to be. As long as they're not actively inciting violence, or otherwise directly causing a danger to someone, their speech is protected.

Once we start down that path, it is a relatively small leap from "Nazis" to anyone saying anything that the government (or the mob) doesn't agree with. And frankly, that's a more serious threat to a free society than whatever bullshit the Nazis are saying.

What if we stopped and frisked them on a daily basis? Or prosecuted them extra hard for equivalent crimes committed by regular folks. Or let's slap them with a Nazi tax.
There's plenty of serious threats to the republic already in progress, and yet the country still stands. Adding Nazis to the long list of undesirables isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

Displaying neo-Nazi imagery should count as "probable cause" for stop and frisk, as this indicates affiliation with groups that have extensive history of committing violent crimes.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:China doesn't have free speech and so they can squish all propaganda campaigns like ants. Hell, many people in China aren't aware of Tiananmen Square.

Yes and no. Attempting to suppress ideologies is counterproductive when done in the West; it is no less counterproductive when done in China. In every case it just drives discussion underground where it becomes less obvious but arguably more dangerous.

It's true that many in China are unclear about what happened in Tiananmen Square, but many know that something happened and that the government does not permit discussion about it. Anyone that wants to find out can - it's just that most ordinary people don't really care about politics, just like in the West.

So I go back to the fact that democracies engage in propaganda wars against their enemies and so do non/pseudo-democracies. (Russia seems to be much better at it than the West right now but historically the roles have been reversed.)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:32 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Displaying neo-Nazi imagery should count as "probable cause" for stop and frisk, as this indicates affiliation with groups that have extensive history of committing violent crimes.

It's definitely an indicator, and it might help make the country safer, but when we start creating ways to circumvent the Fourth Amendment, we might as well repeal it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:43 pm UTC

you mean like all the ways we already bypass it for black people & poor people writ large? but suggest doing it too nazis and republicans start hand wringing like it would be a new travesty instead of literally the same thing we already do re: stop and frisk where being black is enough cause already & the cops can confiscate your money literally because you had cash on you and you Look Shady. nothing cu suggested was different from what we already do except for treat nazis with the same suspicion as black folk and that is Too Much For Yablo.

don't get me wrong, i find stop and frisk (and asset forfeiture and plenty of other bogus police search/seizure powers) horrifying and awful and think they need abolishing, but it's ludicrous and highly telling that any time you suggest treating white people like black folk people get up in arms and this wasn't even that, this was "treat literal nazis with the same stricture we already treat black and brown people every day" and that was evidently crossing a line.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:51 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Displaying neo-Nazi imagery should count as "probable cause" for stop and frisk, as this indicates affiliation with groups that have extensive history of committing violent crimes.

It's definitely an indicator, and it might help make the country safer, but when we start creating ways to circumvent the Fourth Amendment, we might as well repeal it.


There's a fourth amendment?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:52 pm UTC

You know it's possible that people think that kind of treatment of black and brown people is already across a line, and just don't support crossing that line for anyone else either.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:59 pm UTC

And yet those same people are mysteriously absent when it comes to uncrossing the line for black people.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:00 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

yablo said "when we start creating ways" as though we don't already do that and forgive me for not assuming his firm support of antiracist policies in light of his post history here
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:07 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:You know it's possible that people think that kind of treatment of black and brown people is already across a line, and just don't support crossing that line for anyone else either.

Edit, got ninjad, dam it
.

The slippery slopers could also be really really ignorant, but it starts to look willfully ignorant when they happily lap up tough-on-crime, but freak out when Nazis are resurgent.

My personal theory is that it's hard to empathise with minorities(because they can't be mistaken for in-group), but Nazis could be anyone, even in-group people.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:10 pm UTC

Except gay people could be mistaken for in-group, and while Milo Yilanapoopoo is gay, nazis promoting gay rights are kind of rare.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:19 pm UTC

He's still a white nationalist, which is just one step removed.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:02 pm UTC

The argument is that white people defend nazis against random searches because they look like white people. Yet there isn't the same defense for trans gay or Jewish yet those groups often look like white people too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:46 pm UTC

natraj wrote:yablo said "when we start creating ways" as though we don't already do that and forgive me for not assuming his firm support of antiracist policies in light of his post history here

I can forgive your not making that assumption, in general, but I fail to see how anything I've ever posted here might give the impression I support racism in any form. And just to clear up any apparent confusion: I do not support racism, and I do support anti-racist policies. I do not support infringement of rights protected under the 1st and 4th Amendments (or any other amendments, for that matter).

CorruptUser wrote:The argument is that white people defend nazis against random searches because they look like white people. Yet there isn't the same defense for trans gay or Jewish yet those groups often look like white people too.

As a white person, I defend Nazis against random searches, not because they look like white people, but because I defend everyone against random searches.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:56 pm UTC

Your unwavering support for Trump is a pretty good hint that you have little concern for the rights of minorities.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:00 pm UTC

Again with the Nazi-punching (and Nazi-not-punching)?

I'm starting to think that some people fantasize about punching Nazis more than they fantasize about having torrid flings with celebrities. (And are just about as likely to do it in real life, too.)

Seriously, there's lots of real stuff that we all could be doing to make the world a more just and racially harmonious place, but we can't do it while we're busy punching or defending some hypothetical Nazi, who is utterly unaffected by all of our passionate posturing.

Let's channel our righteousness into something with more practical results, shall we? There's a mid-term election coming up. Don't daydream about punching white supremacists. Do some actual work to help vote them out of office. Or to keep them from getting voted in.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:09 pm UTC

trust me i am capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time but your concern trolling is noted.

like seriously it's condescending that you think and assume people don't do other things and also talk on the internet. but cool if you're incapable of it, you get off the internet and do something for justice and harmony since evidently you believe it's impossible to hold an internet discussion and also effect change offline. myself, i will not presume that everyone else doesn't have a life off the internet, because that's frankly insulting. i don't need to give you my Social Activist Resume to justify having an opinion.

eta: leaving aside the staggering amounts of presumption and condescension in your post regarding How Much Real Work you think we're all (not) doing because we waste time fantasizing about nazi punching online, the idea that people need to be Sufficiently Active in order to have and voice opinions about what's going on is awful anyway. nazis want to exterminate people whether they're able to get out and do stuff or not! in fact lots of people nazis want to exterminate are people who explicitly can't participate in political process for various reasons (disability, disenfranchisement, documentation status etc) anyway you don't know jack about who is on the other side of the keyboard, what they've already done with their life or what they're CAPABLE of doing with their life and regardless literally anyone is entitled to an opinion on the shape of the world that wants us dead.
Last edited by natraj on Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:18 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:16 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Your unwavering support for Trump is a pretty good hint that you have little concern for the rights of minorities.

My support for Trump is strong, but it's far from unwavering. For example, I don't believe his plan to impose steel and aluminum tariffs is a good one by any stretch, and I think it will end up hurting the U.S. economy more than it helps.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:17 pm UTC

Also, none of what we're talking about is hypothetical. People have been injured, murdered, and threatened by these actual real-life people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:24 pm UTC

yablo has voiced explicit support for trump's wall, his muslim ban, for increasing police powers, further arming cops, has constantly equivocated about nazis, i could probably find more but that would require wading into the cesspit that is his posts.

like okay he doesn't support steel tariffs great have a cookie for not supporting trump 500%. he supports the racist parts of trump's agenda, he supports racism. i have no idea what hypothetical antiracist policies he claims to support but i do know that the actual policies he's already said he supports are racist af.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:35 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
Thesh wrote:Your unwavering support for Trump is a pretty good hint that you have little concern for the rights of minorities.

My support for Trump is strong, but it's far from unwavering. For example, I don't believe his plan to impose steel and aluminum tariffs is a good one by any stretch, and I think it will end up hurting the U.S. economy more than it helps.


Ah, so you care when you perceive it as harming you.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:39 pm UTC

To be fair if we kick out all people except 1 race, then allow 0 immigration, there would be no racism.

Technically.

Except against the filthy Finns, the bastards.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:35 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
Yablo wrote:
Thesh wrote:Your unwavering support for Trump is a pretty good hint that you have little concern for the rights of minorities.

My support for Trump is strong, but it's far from unwavering. For example, I don't believe his plan to impose steel and aluminum tariffs is a good one by any stretch, and I think it will end up hurting the U.S. economy more than it helps.


Ah, so you care when you perceive it as harming you.

I do, but that's not the only time or the only reason. I get the impression your dislike of Trump supporters in general is what is leading you to be unfair to specific Trump supporters in your assumptions.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:51 pm UTC

natraj wrote:yablo has voiced explicit support for trump's wall, his muslim ban, for increasing police powers, further arming cops, has constantly equivocated about nazis, i could probably find more but that would require wading into the cesspit that is his posts.

like okay he doesn't support steel tariffs great have a cookie for not supporting trump 500%. he supports the racist parts of trump's agenda, he supports racism. i have no idea what hypothetical antiracist policies he claims to support but i do know that the actual policies he's already said he supports are racist af.

I hope you're honestly confused about my beliefs, and if so, I welcome the opportunity to clarify. If, on the other hand, you're just going out of your way to be a dick, please do let me know so I at least know where we stand.

  • A wall along the southern border is not racist. It is a matter of national security, sovereignty, and the rule of law.
  • I don't support a "Muslim ban," and Trump's travel ban on countries which are known to harbor terrorists with strong anti-American beliefs is not a "Muslim ban." Every Muslim I've ever met has been a great person, and I have a great respect for their religion.
  • I truly believe the vast majority of police officers are good people and deserve to be respected. They need the power, ability, and tools to do their jobs and protect law-abiding people.
  • I apologize if you feel anything I've said about Nazis is ambiguous. I firmly stand against all the hatred and evil the Nazi party and any white nationalist wannabes have created and perpetuated. I also firmly support the 1st and 4th Amendment rights of every American, Nazi or otherwise.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:11 am UTC

Yablo wrote:I also firmly support the 1st and 4th Amendment rights of every American, Nazi or otherwise.
Thank you for letting us know! That's as clear cut as it gets.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:13 am UTC

I sincerely apologize for the implied holier-than-thou condescension, natraj. You're right to call me out on it.

An explanation, not an excuse--there's never an excuse for that sort of rudeness, and I am sincerely sorry:

Spoiler:
I get frustrated when I see good energy being poured into something I see as utterly unproductive.

We could be discussing other ways to remedy or prevent the violence and oppression that Nazis (and many other kinds of bigots that are more socially acceptable) are actively committing and planning against large numbers of people.

In the past week, we've had several reminders that our police can apparently shoot black men with impunity. (That is, those black men lucky enough not to be already languishing in prisons, many of which are operated for profit.)

The DACA recipients are still in limbo.

Trump's transgender military ban is back.

Etc., etc.

But instead we keep discussing the handful of punches that have actually landed on Nazis.

Staying focused on those few incidents just reinforces the notion that bad things that happen to straight, white guys matter WAY more than many worse things that happened to, and will continue to happen to, many members of racial, religious, gender, and sexual minorities.

Yes, Nazis are real, and they do (and plan to do) a lot of real harm to a lot of real people. They are, after all, founded on murder and mayhem and the violent subjugation of several groups of people to another.

However, there are very few situations in which punching a Nazi is going to remedy or prevent that harm. And even fewer in which the Nazi-puncher won't give Nazi supporters the kind of "see, when we're violent, we're just acting in self-defense" excuse they long for.

And now I've become the very thing I was complaining about, and have spent an hour discussing Nazi-punching instead of doing something else. Sigh....

What would a Nazi bring to ST's potluck?

Punch, of course.

(Probably with a turd floating in it.)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:16 am UTC

Weeks wrote:
Yablo wrote:I also firmly support the 1st and 4th Amendment rights of every American, Nazi or otherwise.
Thank you for letting us know! That's as clear cut as it gets.

Is this sarcasm? This sounds like sarcasm. The part of my quote you should have bolded, italicized, and underlined is the part about " ... rights of every American ..."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:22 am UTC

American Nazis have rights, indeed, and we must defend them every time minorities are upset about them getting to spread their beliefs, which, while I personally disapprove of (please don't say I'm a Nazi sympathizer...I just believe in freedom *shrug*) should be known by the people of America. Down with violence against Nazis!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:32 am UTC

Okay. So it was sarcasm. Got it.

I absolutely do believe in freedom to speak one's mind. It would be nice if everything everyone had to say was pleasant, and everyone could get along, but that's not how it works. I don't care for the dismissive way you're characterizing my comments, but you should have the right to do so. It's not going to hurt my feelings. I would like to believe anyone reasonable would read this exchange and see both sides for what they are.

And absolutely, down with violence against Nazis, but not just Nazis. Down with violence in general.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:37 am UTC

The thing is, Yablo, Nazis are terrorists. Terrorism is not protected under the First Amendment.

And if someone makes a specific and credible threat, it is not a violation of their Fourth Amendment rights for the authorities (or ordinary citizens, for that matter) to try to stop that person from carrying it out.

Maybe even--I hate to concede--with a punch.

The point of contention is whether saying things like "Exterminate the Jews!" constitutes a specific and credible threat. In view of the Holocaust, it doesn't seem like harmless hyperbole anymore.
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:44 am UTC, edited 5 times in total.

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Pfhorrest
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:38 am UTC

As uncomfortable as I feel defending a Trump supporter, this is a pet peeve of mine that people aren't allowed to be just "neutrally" opposed to bad things no matter who does them to whom. If someone proposed lynching nazis I'd oppose that, because I don't think people should be lynched on general principle. Yes, that includes the many black people who got lynched in the past, though that was before my time. As you Weeks already said, opinions like that (opposition to the lynching of black people) should go without saying, so, surprise, a lot of times people don't bother to say it. And nobody (in the places I have discussions at least) is proposing starting up black lynchings again, so there's not much opportunity to voice how I think that would be a bad idea. But if someone were to propose lynching nazis, the same general anti-lynching sentiment that makes me not want black people lynched makes me not want nazis to be lynched either. And if the only people it's being suggested should be lynched are nazis, that's the only occasion I'll have to say "no, you shouldn't lynch them". But that other people also shouldn't be lynched should go without saying.

Ditto punching people in the face, censoring their speech, etc. Actions should be dictated by general principles regardless of who the people in question are.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:49 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Ditto punching people in the face, censoring their speech, etc. Actions should be dictated by general principles regardless of who the people in question are.


Organizing politically for the sake of harming or suppressing the rights of others, whether it is an immediate threat or a long term objective of the movement, *is* taking action. It's about what they are doing, not who they are. I don't give a shit if you believe that America should be a white nation; I give a shit if you are working on growing enough support so that you can make America a white nation.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.


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