Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:45 am UTC

Koa wrote:So all the desperate lies and obstructions to the investigation are... what?

Part of the smoke, but not the fire. Suggestions that there is something to uncover, but not proof of it.

Also, investigations hurt simply by existing, which is a good reason to fight them even when you're basically innocent. The Benghazi investigation ended up as a major drag on Clinton's campaign.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:51 am UTC

Actually, I thought the Benghazi investigation helped Clinton, in that an actual story got turned into a non-story by the way the Republicans went all crazy on how the Clinton Foundation had Vince Foster's remains hidden in an email server in a pizza shop in Benghazi, or something.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ingolifs » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Actually, I thought the Benghazi investigation helped Clinton, in that an actual story got turned into a non-story by the way the Republicans went all crazy on how the Clinton Foundation had Vince Foster's remains hidden in an email server in a pizza shop in Benghazi, or something.


Became a non-story in the eyes of the people paying attention, i.e. not trump supporters.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:23 pm UTC

Fleeting thought: We've yet to see how it goes, but I'm betting that the people who decried Obama's deal with Iran for them to stop developing nukes will turn out to laud whatever becomes Trump's 'deal' with NK towards the same end.

Probably some vice-versa on that, too, but there's none so blind as those who will not see.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:52 pm UTC

There's a difference though. As far as I'm aware, NK isn't funding a large number of terrorist groups worldwide.

Not that France, Britain, the US, etc dont, but the goals of those aren't to create oppressive theocracies with intent of world conquest, thats more of an accident.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

Iran's ability to fund extraterritorial proxy forces was not actually changed much either way by the Nuclear Deal. They got some money back that was already theirs and that they'd had confiscated and sat around doing nothing for years, some might say, but a piddling amount compared with their overall spending power and ability to spread their net (over 'enemy' countries mostly fellow(-but-wrong-flavour)-Islamic rather than 'western'). And then that was now removed from the balance sheet of perceived hostility by the West.

But praising the dog that has finally stopped chewing the slippers of Nuclear Ambition (because they've disintegrated and are now only fit for the bin and covered in slobber) goes against all dog obedience training, if that's what you're trying to emulate. Know when and how to use your clicker.

It's more complex than that ("nobody knew international diplomacy could be so complicated"!) but some will suggest it is as simple as their distinctly polarised viewpoint, twisted to ignore the more inconveniently oblique example.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

Getting around to answering Sardia's question about if the recent events have altered the odds of the midterm elections. Well, my two cents, anyways.

The PA election is interesting. Recall elections can be predictive, sometimes. I think this one was more informative than Georgia, if only because the GA situation had a suddenly unusually bad Republican candidate. Democrats can take advantage of such situations when they arise, but they cannot depend on such situations existing everywhere. PA was more about reading the ground, and making sound counter-moves(to include a candidate tailored to appeal to local issues). That's a strategy that *can* be used elsewhere.

Now, Lamb and Saccomb were pretty neck and neck, so it's effectively a 50/50 split. Roughly a 22% swing vs 2016, favoring the Democrats. It doesn't just matter that the democrats won, but how, so this ends up being rather more encouraging. Now, I don't think the democrats hold a 22 point edge or anything in general, it's hard to extrapolate out that much...but it's definitely a result more encouraging to the Democrats than the Republicans. Republicans in the wake of the election tried to justify it by noting that Lamb is, in some respects, relatively friendly to some conservative concerns(such as taking a "we already have plenty of gun control laws on the books, we just need to enforce them" approach typical of republicans). So, some are trying to say that he's basically a Republican. Eh, you always see post-hoc justification of how a defeat really isn't. It wasn't the outcome the party tried for though.

So, if we see a continued pattern of the Democrats providing candidates more in tune with each area's voters, then yeah, they can potentially do quite good indeed. I am not sure this is entirely universal. Some of the most red districts are getting firebrand far-left candidates. In fairness, those folks will likely lose either way, so opportunity cost there is low, and it's still better than running nobody. Look at how Republicans didn't bother to run an establishment candidate for a doomed seat, and a literal Nazi decided to run as a Republican there. That's not the kind of publicity you want, and if you want to maintain good branding for the party, running candidates even for the doomed seats is a good policy. It may not translate to direct, immediate power, but in the long run, it matters. So, that's a second way in which Democratic enthusiasm helps them. It'll contribute to a blue resurgence at some point, even if 2018 isn't great.

Last but not least, we got Trump himself. He's...an odd duck. Generally speaking, I believe while he is very big on promoting himself, he's not as good at promoting others. Therefore, I'm not sure he's good at getting down-ticket support for other candidates even from those voters who like him. You've got the image issue, where he ran as anti-establishment to an extent, and that's...not particularly helpful to many republican incumbents, who have a difficult time portraying themselves as anything but the establishment. And then you've got his priorities, which mostly center around his activities and his image. He's unlikely to do as much on-the-road campaigning for down-ticket races as, say, Obama. He's also much less likely to build a brand around the party, rather than around himself.

Now, that ball of wax is pretty hard to enumerate. Not really sure what methodology to use for a lot of this, but continued eyeballing should give us an idea as it gets closer. I'm curious how relevant others think these factors will be.

Swapping back to hard data for a moment, Jersey and Virginia had about a 3% democratic edge in their 2017 elections. Now, not every state is the same, but given the special election data and the other factors listed above, I feel like there's pretty good odds that this is true elsewhere. May not seem like a ton, but even a coupla percents matter, at least for the house. Predictit's numbers still favor(somewhat) a republican senate and a democratic house, if that's your bar. That said, they also believe, still, there is a really significant change of Trump not being president by year's end. Like last year, I expect this to be a moneymaker for me.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed May 02, 2018 7:03 am UTC

Donald Trump's former doctor has said he did not write a 2015 letter declaring the then-Republican presidential candidate's "astonishingly excellent" health, US media report.

"[Trump] dictated that whole letter," Harold Bornstein told CNN on Tuesday.

The White House has not yet commented on the physician's allegation.

In an interview with CNN, Mr Bornstein said the 2015 letter suggesting that Mr Trump would be the "healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency" was not his professional assessment. "I just made it up as I went along," he said.

It is not clear why Mr Bornstein is making these allegations now.

The letter's contents included statements on Mr Trump's physical strength and stamina, which were described as "extraordinary".

His blood pressure and laboratory tests were described as "astonishingly excellent" and he was said to have lost 15 pounds (7kg) over the course of a year.
Mr Bornstein also said that Mr Trump's bodyguard had carried out a "raid" on his offices in February 2017, removing all of Mr Trump's medical records.

"They must have been here for 25 or 30 minutes, it created a lot of chaos," Mr Bornstein told NBC News, adding that the incident made him feel "raped, frightened and sad".

I assume he got paid off for his previous consent. I wonder if he decided to push for more and got rebuffed, or if he has just had an attack of conscience.

There's clearly more to come out with this story...

link

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed May 02, 2018 2:44 pm UTC

The Letter in Question (vai BBC) wrote:Over the past twelve months, he has lost at least fifteen pounds, Mr Trump takes 81 mg of aspirin daily and a low dose of a statin. His PSA test score is 0.15 (very low). His physical strength and stamina are extraordinary.

Mr Trump has suffered no form of cancer, has never had a hip, knee or shoulder replacement or any other orthopaedic surgery. His only surgery was an appendectomy at age ten. His cardiovascular status is excellent. He has no history of ever using alcohol or tobacco products.

If elected, Mr Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.

The underlined parts are giveaways that a doctor did not write this.

1: Doctor give exact numbers, maybe a range. A politician says 'at least/ most'.

2: See number 1.

3: A medical professional would feel no need to clarify this in an official statement.

4: See number 1.

5: See number 1.

6: Really. Really. Trump has never has a glass of campaign in his life. If you said he has not had a history of excessive use, I may believe you.

7: No doctor would make a judgement like this unless they had a complete medical record of every president. Even then they may not, because many aspects of health are incomparable.
Last edited by jewish_scientist on Wed May 02, 2018 2:50 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed May 02, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

I understand he's teetotal because a family member died from alcohol addiction. I'm not sure if he's *never* had alcohol, but it wouldn't necessarily surprise me.

But yeah, other than that the whole letter was the most transparent trumpiest bullshit from the start.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed May 02, 2018 3:46 pm UTC

Mocking the White House doctor's letter, jewish_scientist wrote:Trump has never has a glass of campaign in his life.
Giggle.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat May 05, 2018 3:00 am UTC

What next year's correspondents dinner would look like without all the inappropriate jokes:

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/mor ... s-for-2019
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat May 05, 2018 3:13 am UTC

Sigh....
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon May 07, 2018 12:19 pm UTC

I'm still hoping he'll go and prepare for candidacy to become POTUS himself, in a few years time¹, but right now he's preparing to talk to Donald the only way that has been shown to reliably work. (Including if you want a book advertised.)

¹ Rather that than PM. If it were a straight decision implemented now, by becoming POTUS#46 instead of the hypothetical PM#78ish he'd raise the competancy of both our governments.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue May 08, 2018 2:34 am UTC

As much as I hate making excuses for Trump, this whole Stormy Daniels / Michael Cohen / Rudy Giuliani fiasco seems like it leaves an obvious "out" for Trump and is not the clear "gotcha" that's being reported, and that "out" even sounds like the one Trump's trying to take, but seems to be failing to communicate to the press. It seems like he could just tell this story to excuse everything:

Trump pays Cohen a large retainer, out of his own pocket with no connection to campaign financing, on a regular basis regardless of any particular incidents. That retainer is large enough that Cohen can afford to, at his own discretion, spend large amounts of money "fixing" things for Trump, without Trump having to have any involvement or know anything about it. When the Stormy Daniels story was about to break just prior to the election, Cohen took care of it with the NDA, without telling Trump anything about it, or asking for any repayment specifically for that expense. So Trump can honestly (if this story is true) say that it was all Cohen's doing and he knew nothing about it, and he didn't repay Cohen for that expense specifically. And Giuliani can honestly (again, if this story is true) say that Trump paid Cohen out of his own pocket, with money that had nothing to do with the campaign.

Again, I hate making excuses for the Annoying Orange, but keeping our own side honest is important to me, and when the story first broke my first thought was that there was still an out available to them by telling a story like this, which from Trump and Giuliani's further comments sounds like the story they're trying to tell.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Tue May 08, 2018 4:45 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:It seems like he could just tell this story to excuse everything:
I don't think it would fly (although IANAL). It's too easy for a candidate to set up. It's not "plausible deniability", it's "deliberate ignorance", which (to me) shows intent. Consider that story with any candidate but Trump. "Here's some money, nudge nudge wink wink. You know what to do."

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Tue May 08, 2018 6:25 am UTC

" I have so many scandals that the hush money is a fixed expenditure every month"

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Tue May 08, 2018 7:01 am UTC

Also, while that might in theory be a plausible alibi for J. Random Politician, the sheer number of people who came out of the woodwork to relate how this particular guy never, ever pays people with his own money if he can stiff them or filch it from someone else makes it essentially irrelevant outside of the basic legal need for proof. In essence, anybody not bound by the strict standards of the legal system already knows that he used campaign funds to pay out hush money to a porn star because of course he did; the challenge is simply in finding the confirmation of what anybody who's been paying any attention to this already intuited. (This was, after all, the guy who was embezzling from his own son's charity organization.)

Anyway, the special counsel's office has rejected Trump's lawyers' suggestion that he submit his answers to interview questions in writing. So we can now definitely look forward to the prospect of a man who habitually lies about basically any goddamn thing ever for no particular reason at all and who doesn't even pay attention to his own laywers in normal circumstances being subjected to lengthy interviews with law enforcement in a context where he could commit perjury.

Fire up your popcorn makers, boys and girls.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Tue May 08, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

Trump just announced the US is withdrawing from the Iran deal.

The US will implemented the "highest level" of sanctions against Iran, including sanctions against countries that do business with Iran, I think he just said.

His argument for withdrawing was:
* The deal didn't give inspectors conditionless access to military installations (I seem to remember they had to give 24 hours notice, not really long enough to hide a uranium enrichment program)
* The money Iran got from the deal was spent on their military while the people are still poor
* Something about Iran sponsoring terrorism
* Some other stuff I can't even remember it was so inane - I keep thinking I must've misremembered what he says because it doesn't really make sense as an argument

Be interesting to see what happens next. Either Europe, Russia and China give Iran a better deal to make up for the US dropping out, or the deal goes up in flames and Iran immediately starts working towards nuclear weapons. I don't really see the first one happening due to the US sanctions that would follow. As for the second, even if we threaten Iran with invasion if they work on nukes, how are we going to enforce that? We can't prove they're working on nukes without access to their facilities.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue May 08, 2018 6:33 pm UTC

Trump just wants a war with Iran; it's not like we needed proof for Iraq.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Tue May 08, 2018 6:36 pm UTC

Well, he's quickly making that the only alternative to a nuclear armed Iran.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby emceng » Tue May 08, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:* Some other stuff I can't even remember it was so inane - I keep thinking I must've misremembered what he says because it doesn't really make sense as an argument


This pretty much sums up his presidency.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby rabidmuskrat » Tue May 08, 2018 7:14 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump just wants a war with Iran; it's not like we needed proof for Iraq.

I wouldn't rule that out, but I'd say it's more something that he can point to as an "accomplishment" for his base. They'll eat this up.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Leovan » Tue May 08, 2018 7:23 pm UTC

I feel like he's high from what he views as his success with North Korea, and expects that the same tough talk bigger button strategy will force Iran to the table and he'll get what he sees as a better deal.
It's the same as with NAFTA, tariffs, etc. It's his only foreign policy strategy. Tear up any existing deals, say you want more, and hope the other person will fold and give you slightly more. And so far he hasn't faced major consequences for it, even though I'm not sure it's worked more than 20% of the time... The other times it seems the deal remains torn up and Trump tries to sell it as "a bad deal anyways, we don't need it".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Tue May 08, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

rabidmuskrat wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump just wants a war with Iran; it's not like we needed proof for Iraq.

I wouldn't rule that out, but I'd say it's more something that he can point to as an "accomplishment" for his base. They'll eat this up.


That and Trump's need to obliterate anything Obama ever worked on.

TL:DW: Obama humiliated Trump at the White House Correspondent's Dinner over the birth certificate nonsense, which according to some observers was the night Trump was motivated to run for President.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Tue May 08, 2018 8:09 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
rabidmuskrat wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump just wants a war with Iran; it's not like we needed proof for Iraq.

I wouldn't rule that out, but I'd say it's more something that he can point to as an "accomplishment" for his base. They'll eat this up.


That and Trump's need to obliterate anything Obama ever worked on.

TL:DW: Obama humiliated Trump at the White House Correspondent's Dinner over the birth certificate nonsense, which according to some observers was the night Trump was motivated to run for President.

It's hard to keep in mind just how petty his motivations are. If he was purely driven by money and greed, that would be easier to deal with.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Wed May 09, 2018 12:42 am UTC

What an immature, destructive, petulant, childish piece of shit.

I voted today.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 09, 2018 2:20 am UTC

I don't like the Iran deal. But what's worse than a terrible deal, is breaking that deal. Why make any deals with the US, if the next guy will just reneg on the deals?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed May 09, 2018 6:17 am UTC

Yep!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed May 09, 2018 9:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I don't like the Iran deal. But what's worse than a terrible deal, is breaking that deal. Why make any deals with the US, if the next guy will just reneg on the deals?

That's exactly what they are saying publicly in Iran. Even the reformers are saying it would be 'naive' to trust the US again.

It's quite a feat for Trump to have obtained the condemnation of both Europe and Russia here. The only parties in approval are Israel, Saudi Arabia and the hardliners in Iran who may be able to seize power on the back of this.

There may yet be a twist in the tale though as Europe (along with Russia and China) say they plan to stick by the deal so long as Iran does - which presumably means keeping on trading. Would the US actually start imposing sanctions on, say, Europe for 'breaking sanctions'? Could this cause a trade war between the US and the rest of the world?

Probably not. Trump is nothing if not petty and stubborn and Europe nothing if not pragmatic. The chances of another serious war in the Middle East just spiked though, and the Iraq war was a cake-walk compared to what it would be in Iran.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed May 09, 2018 9:30 am UTC

elasto wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I don't like the Iran deal. But what's worse than a terrible deal, is breaking that deal. Why make any deals with the US, if the next guy will just reneg on the deals?

That's exactly what they are saying publicly in Iran. Even the reformers are saying it would be 'naive' to trust the US again.

It's quite a feat for Trump to have obtained the condemnation of both Europe and Russia here. The only parties in approval are Israel, Saudi Arabia and the hardliners in Iran who may be able to seize power on the back of this.

I have no idea what Trump's actual plan is here, apart from sanctions. I think he's planning to try and negotiate a better deal. First of all, that requires diplomacy that he isn't capable of understanding, let alone executing. Secondly, the idea a country can negotiate a deal, sign it, and then a couple of years later rip it up even though the other country kept all of their commitments, and then think you can put another deal in front of them and get them to agree to it? A deal with the US means nothing now.

elasto wrote:There may yet be a twist in the tale though as Europe say they plan to stick by the deal so long as Iran does - which presumably means keeping on trading. Would the US actually start imposing sanctions on Europe? Could this cause a trade war between the US and Europe?

Probably not. Trump is nothing if not petty and stubborn and Europe nothing if not pragmatic. The chances of another serious war in the Middle East just spiked though, and the Iraq war was a cake-walk compared to what it would be in Iran.

I think that would be unlikely, although it would get quite interesting if Europe, Russia and China decided to team up and impose sanctions against the US for its actions. The deal will die, Iran will start work on a nuclear weapon immediately. The only question is whether we get a war between the US/Israel and Iran, or just let them get nuclear weapons. I'm heavily leaning towards the former, considering the people Trump has in his administration now.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 am UTC

I'm wondering whether the UK will (despite current overtones) cosy up to the Trump madness or move even closer back to the EU in staying in the Deal-supporting club.

Complicated by Russia. Suspected enemy to the UK, except for investments, on-the-border threat to the EU and EU-friendly borderlands, supports the Deal, but also Syria's inhumane regime, and an ideological threat (at least) to the US but almost certainly has some (but obviously not total) influence over the Trump end of the system.

Nothing like as simple as the whole "causes of the first world war" alliance structure. Give or take hindsight.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed May 09, 2018 9:47 am UTC

Right now May is explicitly in favour of the deal. If the deal collapses it'll be because Trump made it unworkable, not because the other signatories lost faith in it.

EDIT: Sorry, you said "despite current overtones". Eh, I think the deal will collapse, but not because the EU and UK are trying to cosy up to Trump but because there's not really any practical way to keep it alive.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed May 09, 2018 10:13 am UTC

I didn't actually say, but I had in mind, that with the complex powerplays possible, it wouldn't necessarily be May in charge (and, before that, Boris out of his current position) by the time this settles down.

Not that Iran's status is directly a thing precipitating any homegrown changes in government (or flavours of the same government) but the brier-patch of conflicting tugs of loyalty, this included, could so easily spark a mini-avalanche that changes the landscape. And I have no idea which way it would slump

Not really a Trump thing, except that his uniquely failed-casino mind seems to brook no thought of the collateral damage his "whatever it is, I'm against it" approach to the artisan deals set up by Obama&Co.

(The more charitable interpretation is that he is the master of the Too Big To Fail approach, that means his creditors in business kept on lending him money so that he was never unable to theoretically pay back earlier monies. And now he's working upon the understanding that the US as being Too Big To Fail, as well, even as he pumps'n'dumps its political leverage. But what if he's wrong?)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed May 09, 2018 10:59 am UTC

Another reason a new deal is not going to happen. This has seriously undermined the moderates in Iran, Rouhani was already struggling and this has doomed him and the entire moderate faction. He'll be gone, and a serious hardliner will take his place, who will be impossible to negotiate with even if the US was to send someone reasonable. I doubt any attempt at negotiation will even happen. And if it did, two hardliners who both refuse to compromise sitting down to negotiate? Kinda pointless really.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed May 09, 2018 11:53 am UTC

Mutex wrote:I have no idea what Trump's actual plan is here, apart from sanctions.


His plan was to tear up something built by someone who humiliated him. Period. He has no plans beyond that.

I think he's planning to try and negotiate a better deal.


This is just a rationalization for his pettiness.

Everything else, the reverting back to the state of affairs before the deal, the lack of any efforts in place to negotiate a replacement plan, the veiled threats to the E.U. about secondary sanctions to force the situation to a point before the Iran deal was put in to effect, all of it is about nullifying the existence of the Iran Deal. There's no plans to replace it with a better deal, no explorations of what a better deal would be, and certainly no concern for the credibility of the U.S. in making another deal.

Trump got what he wanted. If that makes the world burn he neither knows nor cares.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed May 09, 2018 12:10 pm UTC

Oh sure, I get that was his main motive here. I'm just wondering what he'll do next, and it would be weird if he made zero attempt to negotiate a better deal after talking for so long about how bad the current/previous one is/was. After all, he's tried to paint himself as this terrific dealmaker.

I've been trying to spot a path forward that doesn't result in war with Iran. I don't see one. The current deal will fail, there won't be a new one, there's no change Iran won't try to build a weapon once the hardliners regain control, and with Bolton as US foreign secretary, just standing by while they do that isn't going to happen.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed May 09, 2018 12:29 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:After all, he's tried to paint himself as this terrific dealmaker.

You can't fail to get a deal that you never tried to get. "I'm not going to make/keep deals unless they are winning deals" seems to be his constant message. If things go wrong while there is no deal he'll probably use the rhetoric that it would have failed this way with the Bad Deal™, and the gullible (or those more invested in table-flipping than risk being proven wrong) will lap that up.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed May 09, 2018 12:38 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:This has seriously undermined the moderates in Iran, Rouhani was already struggling and this has doomed him and the entire moderate faction. He'll be gone, and a serious hardliner will take his place

That's the most tragic thing about this really. Trump isn't simply a joke president, an amusing sideshow clown. Unlike his attacks on The Affordable Care Act, his withdrawal from Climate Change agreements and so on, which theoretically could be revisited by the next administration, his actions here could affect the world irreversibly for decades to come. I think that's why the other parties to the agreement are so keen to try to push ahead even without the US.

Even managing to negotiate the denuclearisation of NK, should he succeed in that, wouldn't outweigh the damage caused by halting a liberalising Iran in its tracks.

Yes, Iran does by all reports provide succour to terrorist groups in the region but is it any worse than, I dunno, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, who are nominally 'allies'? Heck, is it any worse than the US was when it supported Afghani terrorist groups freedom fighters when they were resisting the Soviets?

How depressing.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 09, 2018 12:54 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Yes, Iran does by all reports provide succour to terrorist groups in the region but is it any worse than, I dunno, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, who are nominally 'allies'?


Yes.

Iran supported just about every Shia militia in Iraq AND Al Qaeda in spite of being rabid anti-Shia in order to make the entire country ungovernable, killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in order to weaken the US, also supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan for the same reason in spite of them also being rabidly anti-Shia, they basically own Hezbollah in Lebanon which was formed from the guys that bombed the American marine base in the early 80's and also traffics drugs into the US while Obama protected them (srsly) to say nothing of all the other stuff they do, they propped up Assad and without the Iranian support the regime would've fallen long before ISIS showed up and ISIS itself wouldn't have existed without earlier said support of the Iraqi portion of Al Qaeda, they caused the Yemen civil war by propping up the worst Houthis they could find (seriously, read the Houthi flag), and really, just assume that every Shia terrorist and a quarter the Sunni terrorists are backed by Iran. Oh, as the cherry on top of the shit sandwich, while they weren't behind 9/11, the terrorists did travel through Iran first and the Iranians likely knew what was going on but they turned a blind eye to it.

Pakistan has only backed the Taliban, as Afghanistan is really a proxy war between India and Pakistan at this point.

Saudi Arabia doesn't directly support a lot of terrorists, but they do provide the "moral support" in the form of funding the fundamentalist madrassas from which many groups recruit, and their private citizens do donate to the groups. Interestingly, though, most terrorists aren't born religious; most start off as petty criminals who find a meaning in life through the terrorist groups, or they are college students who are angry the world wasn't handed to them (seriously, a good chunk of these guys are basically Men's Rights Activists pissed that they can't get laid), or they are just poor farmers and such that are offered more money than they could ever hope to earn in years in order to join a group.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Wed May 09, 2018 12:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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