Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:53 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It's essentially Dominos just hiring the same construction crews.
No, it's essentially (by analogy) getting the town addicted to taxes on gambling, and then finding that they are owned by the mob.
trpmb6 wrote:Get the mcdonald's on the exit to sponsor the sign so you do two things - reduce the cost of the sign and reduce the amount of signage required on the side of the highway.
No, it doubles the amount of signage placed on the side of the highway - the legally required exit sign, and a maximally distracting advertisement for McDonalds. (You don't think so? How intrusive are web ads?)

Not everything that could be financed by commercial interests should be. That's one of the problems with the Trump era. At present, the presidency itself is a commercial interest.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:57 am UTC

But we already have like 5 mcdonalds signs on billboards up to that exit. Plus a couple exit signs and then two sets of "FOOD THIS EXIT" signs listing all food options. Surely we can lower some of these.

In a way, I know about an upcoming exit I'm looking for miles before the actual exit signs simply because mcdonalds starts advertising out 15 or so miles before the exit (I'm referring to rural situations in this case).

There is a sign in Oklahoma that has an unmade casino listed that is 35 miles out with a time on it to distance. I always timed it to see how right the sign was. I was usually a few minutes faster ;)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:09 am UTC

trpmb6 wrote:But we already have like 5 mcdonalds signs on billboards up to that exit.
You don't have to look at the billboard signs. You do have to look at exit signs, yield signs, speed limit signs... that is why this would be different.

At present there are some sponsorship signs already (road cleanup sponsored by Elks Club), but those are not traffic control devices, they are a different color, and they are not co-located with traffic control devices.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:48 pm UTC

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 727532002/

If anyone was wondering why law enforcement and prosecutors have discretion, and why zero tolerance policies are stupid, this is why (well, one reason why). Because, you know, with limited resources it's generally best to focus on real criminals, then minor crimes like illegal immigration. But, I know, I know, this just means we need to double or triple the amount of guard labor. Because, what other choice is there, than prosecuting every single person who tries to cross illegally?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:30 pm UTC

One previous program that Trump dismissed as catch and release cost $36 per family per day to administer and had a 99.6% rate of people showing up in court.

Establishing zero tolerance and 100% incarceration rates as the new normal (with or without family separation) will cost billions of dollars to set up and hundreds of millions of dollars per year to maintain just with the current numbers.

And because that's now the normal for many people ("graciously" walked back to family detention together), they likely won't accept a return to the 100x cheaper equally effective program Trump ended.

And if our neighbors won't accept the deportees (especially once we've amassed a few hundred thousands of them), what's the cheaper option the government will start floating?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:45 pm UTC

In poor taste.
Spoiler:
Euthanasia?
Poor, Poor taste.
It was the first thing that popped into my head.
I did Not have to type it.

Am I Sorry?
I'm sorry we are at a place where That popped into my head.
My head has spent most of its life where That's unthinkable.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:20 pm UTC

It's increasingly less unthinkable, at least to Trump's white supremacist base. That's the problem.

Call immigrants drug dealers and rapists. Then call them animals (and double down on the official WH website). Then start putting them in literal cages. Then walk back to at least putting them in cages together, so that sounds like the most humane method. Then talk about how expensive it is to keep them there (after making it politically incorrect to suggest going back to the already cheaper and proven successful non-carceral approach). Then suggest a final solution to the problem.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:55 pm UTC

And that's more likely than simply putting them on prison work release in order to build the wall, then claim that Mexico "paid" for it in the form of free labor while his base declares him to be a genius, and once the bridle is on that horse keep the Mexican immigrants as a permanent slave class for his hotels?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:13 pm UTC

Sure, maybe the plan will be to work them to death instead of getting to the point of extermination outright.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:30 pm UTC

Waa!
(sniff, sniff)

You might be Right.
I don't have to like it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:02 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Sure, maybe the plan will be to work them to death instead of getting to the point of extermination outright.


El Trabajo te Libera?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:03 pm UTC

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -answered/
A quick Q&A on basic questions about asylum vs illegal immigration.
Spoiler:
Why do we hold people who cross illegally rather than turn them around?
Walker: When it comes to asylum, a person seeking it may have entered the U.S. illegally, but they are not committing a criminal action by seeking asylum. They are asking for humanitarian relief. So the argument is: “If I'm seeking humanitarian relief legitimately, why would I be locked up?” Normally you lock up people because they committed a crime or because you believe they are a flight risk or a risk to public safety. What the Trump administration had done is a re-review of what we as a nation consider acceptable actions to take regarding asylum seekers. It's an extremely sensitive and compelling situation for us to address properly.

Does Trump's executive order stop all separations?
Walker: The zero-tolerance policy is not changed by this executive order. It's basically lipstick on a pig. They are trying to keep the family together “depending on law and family resources.” That gives them a lot of wiggle room.

If crossing illegally is a misdemeanor, why didn't the Bush or Obama administration lock up people caught illegally crossing the border to the degree the Trump administration is?
Walker: What we've done in the past is decide if somebody is a flight risk. If not, they might post a bond and we'll make people wear an ankle bracelet. There are all sorts of things that are an alternative to incarceration. It's less expensive to the taxpayer because we are not providing housing and food and other needs in a federal facility.

Are there any laws Congress could make that would ease this crisis?
Walker: Well, you've got several different moving things that create this. People fleeing gangs in Central America is a big one. If we just focus alone on the port of entry, you need to have more staffing at the ports just to deal with those seeking asylum. And when you claim asylum, you have to get through what's called a credible fear interview. We need a lot of assistance so we can conduct legitimate credible-fear interviews that are conducted in a consistent way and are subject to oversight. There won't be space at ports of entry for all this, so you may have to make a decision on whether you detain a person for more than 20 days (per a court ruling) while you figure out when to do the interview.

Should we be talking more about the root conditions in these Central American countries that lead to such mass migrations?
Walker: Yeah, absolutely we need more discussion about this. Think about all the resources that get triggered in an illegal entry, especially assuming we will continue this zero-tolerance policy. Can't we figure out some mechanism for an assessment for a cost-benefit analysis of continuing to fail to address the root cause of the problem — which is the failed states who can't protect their citizenry — vs. prosecuting asylum seekers as they come in? It's a diplomatic issue and it's a very political issue.

For those of you insisting that this is a strictly rule of law, notice how much we can change the ground rules. For example, why is the port of entry understaffed given how long asylum seekers have been arriving? In an age of tax cuts and ballooning deficits, why are we taking an expensive approach to corral foreigners when there are cheaper options? Especially given that we used to do the cheaper thing.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:14 pm UTC

Because this is neither about rational economic interests, nor about things like morality, safety, etc. It's because immigrants are the scapegoat to distract from Republican's failed economic policies. They need someone to blame, and who better than "those people"? The harsher they treat them, the happier Republicans are. The more cruel this administration is, the more support they get.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:01 pm UTC

Yes.
To distract from Republican's failed policies.

We don't know what from.
We Do know it is a slight of hand trick.

For Profit Private Prisons is a good guess.

Who is watching that money hole the Republicans are throwing money in?
Trump got a Whole lot of money to give For Profit Prisons more money.
Last edited by addams on Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:34 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Because this is neither about rational economic interests, nor about things like morality, safety, etc. It's because immigrants are the scapegoat to distract from Republican's failed economic policies. They need someone to blame, and who better than "those people"? The harsher they treat them, the happier Republicans are. The more cruel this administration is, the more support they get.

No, that's wrong. His base may reflexively support Trump, but even with Republicans, large numbers of them dislike doing terrible things to screaming children. They also didn't like his initial travel ban, or his healthcare repeal. People aren't stupid, stop making it seem like they are monolithic.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:48 pm UTC

We are not monolithic.
We ARE easily distracted.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:Because this is neither about rational economic interests, nor about things like morality, safety, etc. It's because immigrants are the scapegoat to distract from Republican's failed economic policies. They need someone to blame, and who better than "those people"? The harsher they treat them, the happier Republicans are. The more cruel this administration is, the more support they get.

No, that's wrong. His base may reflexively support Trump, but even with Republicans, large numbers of them dislike doing terrible things to screaming children. They also didn't like his initial travel ban, or his healthcare repeal. People aren't stupid, stop making it seem like they are monolithic.

If you ask them outright, they will say they oppose it. But the vast majority of Republicans are still behind him. No matter what he does, Republicans are happy with his policies. They may oppose ripping children away from families, but they don't actually care if it happens. Republicans, in general, have accepted that foreigners are primarily to blame for their problems, and so the harsher the administration comes down on immigrants, the happier Republicans will be.

I'm sure many people who supported the Nazi party would have said Jewish children shouldn't be taken from their parents. Doesn't mean much if they still support the Nazi party.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby emceng » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:Because this is neither about rational economic interests, nor about things like morality, safety, etc. It's because immigrants are the scapegoat to distract from Republican's failed economic policies. They need someone to blame, and who better than "those people"? The harsher they treat them, the happier Republicans are. The more cruel this administration is, the more support they get.

No, that's wrong. His base may reflexively support Trump, but even with Republicans, large numbers of them dislike doing terrible things to screaming children. They also didn't like his initial travel ban, or his healthcare repeal. People aren't stupid, stop making it seem like they are monolithic.


They may dislike doing terrible things to children, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what they think or say - it only matters what they do. And for the most part, the party is lining up behind him. They didn't like his travel ban, but do they still scream their support of him? Yes. They didn't like his healthcare repeal - that got shot down, so he backdoored it, and not a peep from the GOP masses. He got massive backlash on caging children, so he caved. If voters cared half this much about all the other terrible things he is doing, he would be losing political fights all the time. Instead, Fox News is chanting 'Lock her up', and insisting Canada is our enemy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1JI1A9

Look at this. Evangelicals say they are for family values. If you ask them, they'll say they want to help people. They'll insist they're following the Bible. Then they back any dipshit with an R behind their name. Morality has left the Republican party, and not of its own volition.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:19 pm UTC

The pimp is involved in the world's oldest profession, and thus the most conservative person they could find.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:13 am UTC

Related:
https://youtu.be/23X14HS4gLk

It was sent to me by a friend.
How she found it is beyond me.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:21 pm UTC

Guess who… wrote:The United States is insisting that all countries that have placed artificial Trade Barriers and Tariffs on goods going into their country, remove those Barriers & Tariffs or be met with more than Reciprocity by the U.S.A. Trade must be fair and no longer a one way street!


He's threatening to retaliate against tariffs that are a retaliation against his prior tariffs. I'd be very surprised if any of the US allies would unilaterally back down (and would think less of any that do, including ourselves), and would not be shocked to hear that they match the "more than Reciprocity" with rereciprocity (without The Unnecessary Capitalisation).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:55 am UTC

Just what does Trump think he's going to gain by pissing off Europe? Is he hoping to eliminate every ally the US has?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:10 am UTC

To Republicans, Europe is already and enemy. Canada is an enemy. By their definition, every country outside of America is socialist (except for Russia), and socialism is an existential threat to freedom. These countries also want to impose their PC culture on us, and hate us because of our freedom. Also, America is socialist, and their only hope is for Real Americans to take back the country.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:13 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Just what does Trump think he's going to gain by pissing off Europe? Is he hoping to eliminate every ally the US has?
That is what his Boss wants.
That is what he will deliver.

I'd like to think it is to protect our Power Grid.
But, it's not. Greed, my darlings. It's Greed.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 am UTC

PC? Hardly. Oh sure, Europe claims to be this left wing paradise, and while it is a bit more left wing economically, socially it's in many ways behind the US. France and others still routinely ethnically cleanse themselves of Romani. When this is brought up, it's always "but that's different" and then there is some horror story about how the Romani are and somehow the police dont exist. While child separation is deplorable and all, the US has taken in tens of millions of Latin Americans over the past couple decades, whereas Europe is basically in collapse over just a couple million immigrants. You know how in the US, Jamal only gets 2/3 as many callbacks as James? In France, IIRC, it's 2/5. Black people make up 13% of the US population and 30% of its prisoners, which is nothing compared to France's 12% Muslim population but 60% of the prison population, and the other countries aren't too much better.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:50 am UTC

Oh sure, Europe claims to be this left wing paradise, and while it is a bit more left wing economically, socially it's in many ways behind the US.

Europe has its fair share of racism and xenophobia to be sure, but it is ahead of the US socially in many ways too, especially in terms of sexual liberation - from less angst over a nipple appearing on tv to less faux-outrage when a politician has an extra-marital dalliance.

Pockets of Catholicism aside, many fewer here would deny the right of a woman to choose an abortion either. This kind of thing would be rare to non-existent over here:

An Arizona woman has said she was left "in tears and humiliated" after a staff member at US pharmacy chain Walgreens refused to give her prescription medication to end her pregnancy - even though her doctor had said she would ultimately have a miscarriage.

Nicole Mone had discovered at a doctor's appointment on Tuesday that her baby was not developing normally.

Knowing her two-month pregnancy would not run to term, she was given a choice to end it through a surgical procedure or prescription medication, and chose the latter.

When she went to a Walgreens in the city of Peoria to get her prescription, she says a pharmacist refused to serve her on moral grounds - a stance which is within the company's rules.

"I get it, we all have our beliefs. But what he failed to understand is, this isn't the situation I had hoped for - this isn't something I wanted. This is something I have zero control over. He has no idea what it's like to want nothing more than to carry a child to full term and be unable to do so.

I left Walgreens in tears, ashamed and feeling humiliated by a man who knows nothing of my struggles but feels it is his right to deny medication prescribed to me by my doctor," she wrote.


Religion is distrusted far more here than in the States, which partly goes to explaining Europe's otherwise incongruous Islamophobia: For us religion is a private thing not something that should be viewed as a badge of honour particularly, so there are many that distrust and fear the evangelical whether Muslim or, indeed, fundamentalist Christian.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:02 pm UTC

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatod ... /727532002
Federal prosecutors warned they were diverting resources from drug-smuggling cases in southern California to handle the flood of immigration charges brought on by the Trump administration’s border crackdown, records obtained by USA TODAY show.

I thought someone posted this already, but I couldn't find it. It makes sense that a ton of minor cases that are considered priority 1 would require a lot of resources. Prosecutorial discretion is a real thing because money, time, and lawyers are limited.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:19 pm UTC

It's win-win for Trump, though, because those increasingly unprosecuted drug crimes are another thing to blame on immigrants.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:05 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's win-win for Trump, though, because those increasingly unprosecuted drug crimes are another thing to blame on immigrants.

Yeah, Trump will take advantage of anything he can, but this is Jeff "I hate stoners" Sessions who's at the wheel. Trump's just the backseat driver. It seems odd that Sessions would be ok with this. I don't expect the general public to know what prosecutorial discretion is, but Sessions isn't a moron. He must have known what the trade-off was to focus on immigrants.

I guess Hardline immigration is going to be the premier talking points for the GOP this year...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:03 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:It's essentially Dominos just hiring the same construction crews.
No, it's essentially (by analogy) getting the town addicted to taxes on gambling, and then finding that they are owned by the mob.


That's a strange analogy. Also, I'm describing what actually is happening. What, exactly, is the "mob" here? There's no surprise. Everyone knows the money is coming from Dominos. For Dominos, that's the point.

trpmb6 wrote:Get the mcdonald's on the exit to sponsor the sign so you do two things - reduce the cost of the sign and reduce the amount of signage required on the side of the highway.
No, it doubles the amount of signage placed on the side of the highway - the legally required exit sign, and a maximally distracting advertisement for McDonalds. (You don't think so? How intrusive are web ads?)

Not everything that could be financed by commercial interests should be. That's one of the problems with the Trump era. At present, the presidency itself is a commercial interest.

Jose


McDonalds already puts signs everywhere.

Look, here's a concrete example that's already in use. The "adopt a highway" program. Basically, in return for doing periodic trash walks to scoop up litter and what not, you get a sign. Not any sign you want, a standardized government adopt a highway sign saying you've adopted this road. They of course, bill the company for the sign, cost of installation, etc. Net cost to the government is basically zero, and in return, they've gotten a public good taken care of, and we have less litter.

It's in use now, and it works great.

Thesh wrote:Because this is neither about rational economic interests, nor about things like morality, safety, etc. It's because immigrants are the scapegoat to distract from Republican's failed economic policies. They need someone to blame, and who better than "those people"? The harsher they treat them, the happier Republicans are. The more cruel this administration is, the more support they get.


Immigration has always been a scapegoat to some degree, sure. But it predates the Republican policies, and right now, the economy is doing great. So, it's not really a product of economic failures. Also, Trump's popularity rating is not extremely high. Considering how good the economy's doing, it's actually ridiculously low.

emceng wrote:Look at this. Evangelicals say they are for family values. If you ask them, they'll say they want to help people. They'll insist they're following the Bible. Then they back any dipshit with an R behind their name. Morality has left the Republican party, and not of its own volition.


Naw, they're moral. They just have a different morality than you. If you honestly believe abortion is murder, then lining up "endless murders" against almost anything else, and they're picking the lesser of the two evils, as they see it. Nothing has really changed.

gmalivuk wrote:It's win-win for Trump, though, because those increasingly unprosecuted drug crimes are another thing to blame on immigrants.


Eh, I doubt it. I mean, he might try to spin it that way, but ideally, anyone proposing a policy wants good outcomes from it, yes? A crackdown resulting in lower crime rates is generally trumpeted as the crackdown working. Having a crackdown, and having crime get worse is a hard sell as a success.

Maybe, if we're lucky, this'll contribute to the lower priority that lesser drug crimes have been receiving. Legalization is spreading, and if the conservatives are focused elsewhere, maybe we can get to a point where we can have rational drug policy?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:16 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:ideally, anyone proposing a policy wants good outcomes from it
What part of the current clusterfuck looks anything like "ideally" to you?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:19 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:ideally, anyone proposing a policy wants good outcomes from it
What part of the current clusterfuck looks anything like "ideally" to you?


This is from Trump's point of view, not from ours. I suspect he values good PR and validation.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That's a strange analogy.
Not really, you just have to look further. Right now, government spends money on road work for the benefit of its citizens. Its citizens decide (by proxy) what works gets done. Hand it to Dominos and a commercial entity gets to decide what work gets done, while government now has more money to spend on other things (or to lower taxes). Either way, we get used to free road work (like free internet) and come to expect not to have to pay for it. It becomes harder and harder to oust Dominos should we become less thrilled with the work they are doing, because the alternative feels too expensive. That's how the mob (the mafia - organized crime) gets into casinos - they bring lots of money into the town, which the town likes. It funds schools, the fire department, the police department, the courts.... all good stuff because it lowers taxes. And then it turns out they own the schools, the fire department, the police department, the courts.... something about pipers and tunes.

There's an entire camel behind Dominos

Tyndmyr wrote:McDonalds already puts signs everywhere. ¶ Look, here's a concrete example that's already in use. The "adopt a highway" program
Yes, and those are separate, standardized signs that do not interfere with safety. That's fine, if it doesn't go further. But putting the Dominos logo on the roadway is a bit more out there. It points towards putting the McDonalds logo on speed limit signs. No, it's not there yet, but motion in that direction (which Dominos is) needs to be watched suspiciously.

Tyndmyr wrote:
usatoday, quoted by sardia wrote:...diverting resources from drug-smuggling cases in southern California to handle the flood of immigration charges brought on by the Trump administration’s border crackdown...
Eh, I doubt it. I mean, he might try to spin it that way, but ideally, anyone proposing a policy wants good outcomes from it, yes?
No. Well, yes, they want "good" outcomes, but their "good" isn't our "good", any more than stated reasons are actual reasons. The administration does not care about good outcomes (for the country), they care about revving up the base. What will rev up the base more than a flood of immigrant crimes? And in whose favor would that be? Surely, if there's a real increase in immigrant crimes, Trump will gain more power to crush immigrants.

And that's what he wants. He doesn't want to stop crime, he wants to stop immigrants.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:01 pm UTC

ucim wrote: Well, yes, they want "good" outcomes, but their "good" isn't our "good", any more than stated reasons are actual reasons. The administration does not care about good outcomes (for the country), they care about revving up the base.


It's all a matter of perspective. A fish does not find being caught and eaten very good for itself. Yet the person who did the catching and eating finds it quite good.

Trump most certainly thinks, in his view, that what he is doing is good for the country. Many people in the country disagree. Most on these forums disagree. On some things, like the economy, the majority of Americans think Trump is doing a good job. So I guess all those Americans are racist since everything Trump does is racist and if you support what he's done on the economy that also makes you a racist. [/tongueincheek]

Polling numbers per CNBC
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:05 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That's a strange analogy.
Not really, you just have to look further. Right now, government spends money on road work for the benefit of its citizens. Its citizens decide (by proxy) what works gets done. Hand it to Dominos and a commercial entity gets to decide what work gets done, while government now has more money to spend on other things (or to lower taxes). Either way, we get used to free road work (like free internet) and come to expect not to have to pay for it. It becomes harder and harder to oust Dominos should we become less thrilled with the work they are doing, because the alternative feels too expensive. That's how the mob (the mafia - organized crime) gets into casinos - they bring lots of money into the town, which the town likes. It funds schools, the fire department, the police department, the courts.... all good stuff because it lowers taxes. And then it turns out they own the schools, the fire department, the police department, the courts.... something about pipers and tunes.

There's an entire camel behind Dominos


They are not getting fine grained control over the whole ball of wax, it's just pothole filling. I also have difficulty believe that because Dominos did a PR campaign, they now own your government. It's maybe sixty grand of work for most of these cities. It's nice, and it probably saves a great deal more than that in wear and tear on vehicles, but on a governmental scale, it's not all that much money.

What sort of nefarious influence do you think they can exert because they donated some pothole money?

Tyndmyr wrote:McDonalds already puts signs everywhere. ¶ Look, here's a concrete example that's already in use. The "adopt a highway" program
Yes, and those are separate, standardized signs that do not interfere with safety. That's fine, if it doesn't go further. But putting the Dominos logo on the roadway is a bit more out there. It points towards putting the McDonalds logo on speed limit signs. No, it's not there yet, but motion in that direction (which Dominos is) needs to be watched suspiciously.


If there's a safety concern, then sure, logo'd signs can be separate from safety signs. As they are now. I don't mind combining to reduce clutter if it's an area where that makes sense, and frankly, if you have the golden arches above the speed limit signs, whatever. Nobody in the US is unaware of McDonalds, and regardless of specific advertising, that's going to remain the case.

o. Well, yes, they want "good" outcomes, but their "good" isn't our "good", any more than stated reasons are actual reasons. The administration does not care about good outcomes (for the country), they care about revving up the base. What will rev up the base more than a flood of immigrant crimes? And in whose favor would that be? Surely, if there's a real increase in immigrant crimes, Trump will gain more power to crush immigrants.

And that's what he wants. He doesn't want to stop crime, he wants to stop immigrants.

Jose


Sure, his goals are likely not our goals. That said, I don't think Trump gives two fucks about immigrants one way or another, save for as they are useful to him. He opposes them because it's handy to gain support. If tomorrow it were to his advantage to do the opposite, he would. Trump has never hesitated to shift positions for his own advantage.

Lots of immigrant crime in response to his crackdown makes him look weak. Less crime in response makes him look strong. He's very, very concerned about his image. So, I'm pretty sure he wants his crackdown to result in less crime. Sure, he'll try to spin whatever result he gets, he always does, but he wants, very badly, to be seen to win.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:10 pm UTC

If you support him, you are racist. You can acknowledge that some of his policies have had some positive effects without supporting him, but you cannot support him without being racist.

(Look at coverage of Hitler from the 20s and 30s. The "his apparent racism is just a propaganda tool" was common then, too.)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:17 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:Trump most certainly thinks, in his view, that what he is doing is good for the country.

Citation for this? I have a very hard time believing Trump thinks he's doing the best for the country. I think he's doing what he thinks is best for himself only, and the interests of the country or the world are very much at the bottom of his list, if they exist at all.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:Trump most certainly thinks, in his view, that what he is doing is good for the country.

Citation for this? I have a very hard time believing Trump thinks he's doing the best for the country. I think he's doing what he thinks is best for himself only, and the interests of the country or the world are very much at the bottom of his list, if they exist at all.


Pretty simple really. Trump is so into himself that of course he thinks whatever he is doing is right for the country.

It doesn't really matter though. We're both just speculating.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

Also it doesn't really matter what his true feelings and motivations are in his secret heart. He is harming people and the country and needs to be stopped.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:30 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:Trump most certainly thinks, in his view, that what he is doing is good for the country.
Trump most certainly does not think that.

Aside from my own views on what is good for the country, and whether Trump's actions align with that, the motivation for what Trump is doing isn't his belief of what's good for the country. I don't think he even thinks about that. He's sell the country to the Russians if it was in his personal best interests.

No. What he's doing is motivated, almost certainly, by his own personal aggrandizement. He wraps it in the flag, but only because to him the flag is a convenient fishwrap.

Tyndmyr wrote:Lots of immigrant crime in response to his crackdown makes him look weak.
But he and his base use alternative facts. The crime isn't "in response to" his actions, it is the reason for his actions. And his base will accept this and rally behind it.

Tyndmyr wrote:What sort of nefarious influence do you think they can exert because they donated some pothole money?
Not much - just the increased willingness to do it again. But big things begin small (even though not all small things become big).

gmalivuk wrote:Also it doesn't really matter what his true feelings and motivations are in his secret heart. He is harming people and the country and needs to be stopped.
Yes, it does matter. "He is harming people" is a matter of opinion, and people can have legitimate differences here. But "he is harming people because { he believes he's doing good | he doesn't care about anything but himself }" is not something about which I see legitimate differences. The latter alternative should be unacceptable to everyone; the former alternative is ordinary politics, of which you win some and lose some.

The latter alternative is the dangerous one.

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